cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Leshma on July 24, 2012, 02:22:07 am
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Hi there, long time no see :D
As you can see this thread is about shields. Why?
Because I think that shields are acting strange, not OP not too much UP but they feel wrong.
Turtles won't like these changes but I think they should be done:
1) Change shield stats
Smaller shields like knightly heater, kite and smaller round shields are too heavy, they should be somewhere between 3 and 4 weight.
Big ass shields like huscarl which are reinfornced with steel should be heavier, like 4 times heavier than smaller wooden shields.
Metal shields should also be heavier, except bucklers.
Decrease number of hit points shields have, a lot.
2) Bring back old force field values when shield is used on foot.
Currently, so many shit is going through shields it's not funny anymore. I blame new forcefield values (new = post upkeepo patch).
3) Now comes the sweetest part, something cmp has mentioned before
Implement new feature, where the longer you hold shield up the more damage you take, but if you block just in time with enemy swing (somewhat like chambering) your shield take small amount of damage.
4) Arrows should deal little to no damage to all shields, no matter how much shield skill player has
Why I am suggesting these changes?
Because, at the moment shielders aren't filling their true role. With my changes they will be mobile, won't fear ranged and will be able to rival 2h/poles if they know how to play.
I don't think that one handed weapons are that weak, whenever I put my shield on back, I transform into killing machine just like when I use 2H/pole weapons. Shields are the problem, sure is easier to block with a shield than manual blocking but when you become decent with manual blocking, shield blocking becomes worse choice. That should be changed.
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I say just remove shield forcefields entirely and make shield skill have no effect on shield field, give them values fitting their size and don't add a feature that makes aiming your block against arrows easier, that's like giving 2hs autoblock once they get beyond 200 wpf.
I like the thing you (CMP) suggested regarding shields taking less damage if they don't just hold block, but I say, also add such a feature for manual blocking, adding a (longer) weapon stun if you hold block for to long, tabbing dem buttons ftw.
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I think shields are ok :) but maybe something new can be added. Good ideas anyway
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Shields would become pretty useless against holds and multiple opponents that way. Sure, you can tap block a single person if they're extremely predictable, but you need to hold your block to maneuver around more than one person. You may think that's fine, but that'll just make it so it's easier to just manual block against multiple enemies, because if you had a shield, it will just break quickly and you will get hit/killed because of the stun when it breaks.
Lowering the shield weight that low may make shields susceptible to being stunned much more often, so it is both a blessing and a curse. Shield speeds would need to go up dramatically to have some form of reliability.
Arrows already do little damage to shields
Edit: Tap block will also need to be better than current blocking to begin with. High shield skill players already take little damage to their shield, so this will just straight out nerf them. It will also be unreasonable to make shielders get a hit in any faster than they currently do, like tap block stunning the opponent longer.
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Only thing I"ll agree is the forcefield needs to come back. So many bullshit hits and people teleporting thru me its so fucking dumb and broken.
One way might be to increase the AGI requirement per point in shield. This would also get rid of the indestructible shield dilemma.
But they need to balance this so there is an actual incentive or point to using the bigger/heavier shields besides just more HP. The kite shields were far too good in melee before the nerf.
Taking more damage because you've been holding your shield up is pretty stupid. You dont go PUNCHING your shield at incoming attacks unless you want your hand & arm broken. You keep shield up away from your body so you've got some 'give' to absorb blows.
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Just fix models going through shields held up. I abuse this myself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AIWodyQvq4
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I wouldn't take any HP from the shields. But I don't think shield skill should effect anything but speed on shields. I agree with making higher end shields heavier. Wood is not a light material and with the thickness of some of the shields, you can end up with one hell of a left arm by using them.
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The 'snap block' change suggested is bad, because holds already do more damage against shields, so it would just be a double-whammy. As mentioned the 'snap block' fails a lot if you're dealing with holds or someone feinting alot, esp since some shields have a lot of delay so the snap wouldn't even work.
Honestly I don't think shields need much in the way of changing right now.
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I would just like to see more shield diversity. As it stands, those no reason to take any but a handful of shields.
I would like to see most shields weaker against shield breakers. I would like to see some shields more resistant to shield breakers. Those that become more resistant get their speed dropped dramatically.
Different shields should serve different purposes. Some could be used for holding areas and pushing. Others used for straight combat. Give me diversity, damnit!
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Why would you want a shielder to be more mobile? The point behind them is to pick a spot and say "Thou shall not pass," not "I'm a ballerina with a wooden block on my hand!"
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All these suggestions are pretty bad, and mostly just nerfs, especially as San mentioned ability to fight vs multiple opponents.
Do you even play shielder or is this just a ragepost? I noticed your derogatory use of the word "turtles"
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I like Rusty's suggestion. Could be good for all weapon types. There is some specialization in other weapon forms but I would really like some more variety on the field.
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I think it would be great to get the better block field back, however I still think shield speed doesn't really matter much.
Maybe make the slowest shields even slower, then scale the rest. That way shield speed would be worth something, and thus would add some more diversity.
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Honestly I don't think shields need much in the way of changing right now.
You dont play a shielder, you dont realize how often people phase thru our models and getting hiltslashed when our shield UP, when FORCEFIELD used to prevent stuff like that. In a spot you used to be able to hold with 2-3 shielders to hold a chokepoint you need 5-6 players all teamhitting each other and getting their weapons stuck on each other because they're crammed in like sardines. Removing the forcefield caused more problems than it fixed, and diminishes the contributions of an entire class/role.
Play shielder for a month and come post back on this thread that things are ok. None of you will do it, because its buggy broken shit atm.
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I think leshma just want backpedal all shielders and destroy their shields with some greatsword, and ofc she want block 1000 arrows wth some crap shield.
That's the point.
And i think shields dont need any changes.
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You dont play a shielder, you dont realize how often people phase thru our models and getting hiltslashed when our shield UP, when FORCEFIELD used to prevent stuff like that. In a spot you used to be able to hold with 2-3 shielders to hold a chokepoint you need 5-6 players all teamhitting each other and getting their weapons stuck on each other because they're crammed in like sardines. Removing the forcefield caused more problems than it fixed, and diminishes the contributions of an entire class/role.
Play shielder for a month and come post back on this thread that things are ok. None of you will do it, because its buggy broken shit atm.
You're talking about two different things here.
Shine was like "Don't change them in their gameplay!" and you're like "They need a re-buff!"
OP is suggesting changes to gameplay-mechanics and those aren't needed. +1 Shine
Glitching and removed Forcefield are bad things and should be worked on. +1 Digglez
You're both right. You're both talking about different things tho... 8-)
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Shields would become pretty useless against holds and multiple opponents that way. Sure, you can tap block a single person if they're extremely predictable, but you need to hold your block to maneuver around more than one person. You may think that's fine, but that'll just make it so it's easier to just manual block against multiple enemies, because if you had a shield, it will just break quickly and you will get hit/killed because of the stun when it breaks.
Lowering the shield weight that low may make shields susceptible to being stunned much more often, so it is both a blessing and a curse. Shield speeds would need to go up dramatically to have some form of reliability.
Arrows already do little damage to shields
Edit: Tap block will also need to be better than current blocking to begin with. High shield skill players already take little damage to their shield, so this will just straight out nerf them. It will also be unreasonable to make shielders get a hit in any faster than they currently do, like tap block stunning the opponent longer.
Fighting against multiple oponents will become a lot harder. But fighting one enemy will be easier as well.
In cRPG being shielder means you're good at fighting multiple enemies. But that doesn't make sense, I mean fighting multiple enemies doesn't make sense at all. I'm pretty sure shielders weren't meant to aggro five or more enemy fighters, then either backpedal or spin, that way forcing the enemy to teamkill themselves.
Makes perfect sense in cRPG because it was always like that (not just for shielders) but it's quite silly actually.
You're right, faster and lighter shield will get stunned more often and people will crush trough them a lot. But I've also suggested that bigger shields should be heavier which means that they will be like walls.
And arrows do solid damage to my shield, which is cheap and has just 174 HP. It also had 17 body armor which is solid and I have 4 shield skill. Despite that, all it takes are 5-6 arrows from loomed archers and my shield is history.
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Forcefield just needs to be removed, stupid shits who can't even see where the arrow is being aimed at and rotate their block accordingly deserve to get headshot.
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Only thing I"ll agree is the forcefield needs to come back. So many bullshit hits and people teleporting thru me its so fucking dumb and broken.
One way might be to increase the AGI requirement per point in shield. This would also get rid of the indestructible shield dilemma.
But they need to balance this so there is an actual incentive or point to using the bigger/heavier shields besides just more HP. The kite shields were far too good in melee before the nerf.
Taking more damage because you've been holding your shield up is pretty stupid. You dont go PUNCHING your shield at incoming attacks unless you want your hand & arm broken. You keep shield up away from your body so you've got some 'give' to absorb blows.
It's pretty obvious that you're playing shielder for a long time, already came up with a lot better idea than myself.
Different AGI req per shield skill is excellent idea.
One shield point per 6 AGI just like HA skill works right now can fix many problem without having to change many shield stats like I suggested.
But some stats changes have to be done in that case, like splitting shields in four categories:
1 Shield skill = 6 AGI - all shields up to Brown Lion shield
2 Shield skill = 12 AGI - all shields up to Board Shield
3 Shield skill = 18 AGI - all shields up to Heavy Board Shield
4 Shield skill = 24 AGI - all shields (Plate Covered Round Shield should have 4 Shield skill req)
One shield skill should give double amount of damage reductions per level in this case = 14% per shield skill level. That means you'll need 45 AGI build in order to make indestructible shield, but you won't have enough skill points on level 30.
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I think leshma just want backpedal all shielders and destroy their shields with some greatsword, and ofc she want block 1000 arrows wth some crap shield.
That's the point.
And i think shields dont need any changes.
Agor, I'm not playing much on my main. But whenever I do, I feel like demigod.
If I played on my main I wouldn't post anything in here because everything is "perfectly balanced" against my 2H agi build :D
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I dunno... I don't like the idea of high Agi instead of high Str for a really heavy shield. Just sounds wrong.
I don't have a better idea tho. Just saying that it somehow feels wrong...
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You dont play a shielder, you dont realize how often people phase thru our models and getting hiltslashed when our shield UP, when FORCEFIELD used to prevent stuff like that. In a spot you used to be able to hold with 2-3 shielders to hold a chokepoint you need 5-6 players all teamhitting each other and getting their weapons stuck on each other because they're crammed in like sardines. Removing the forcefield caused more problems than it fixed, and diminishes the contributions of an entire class/role.
Play shielder for a month and come post back on this thread that things are ok. None of you will do it, because its buggy broken shit atm.
uhhh I played shielder for like 6+ gens, most recently 2 gens ago. Yes occasionally someone that is practically inside you can pull off a swing past your shield, but if you have good positioning it's very rare (I can probably count on 1 hand the # of times it happened to me).
I find shielders just as effective as they ever were for breaking up formations and causing chaos among ranks.
So no I don't think more forcefield changes need to be made.
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Fighting against multiple oponents will become a lot harder. But fighting one enemy will be easier as well.
In cRPG being shielder means you're good at fighting multiple enemies. But that doesn't make sense, I mean fighting multiple enemies doesn't make sense at all. I'm pretty sure shielders weren't meant to aggro five or more enemy fighters, then either backpedal or spin, that way forcing the enemy to teamkill themselves.
Makes perfect sense in cRPG because it was always like that (not just for shielders) but it's quite silly actually.
It's not silly it's a core basic for Warband class balance.
2v1 vs non-shielder: If the attackers have half a brain they attack at same time with different directional swings, single guy can only parry one direction. He starts taking hits.
2v1 vs shielder: Directional attacks don't matter. Shielder can block any direction and is able to focus more counter attacking than desperate parries.
In exchange for this advantage vs multiple opponents (plus protection from ranged), 1h weps are weaker and shielders get a speed penalty from their extra gear. You are proposing to obliterate this aspect of shielding and just turn them into duelists, completely & radically change the class.
Why? I dunno? Cuz you dislike them personally even though you have never played one seriously. Terrible. Did you get beat by a shielder and make this as a ragepost?
If there's a problem with shielders who "turtle", aka are super defensive and have nearly indestructable shields, then just cap shield skill at 5 and maybe nerf some of the 2 slot shields. A lot easier than radically changing a class. People who do that are just newbies anyways. From my observations on NA at at least, basically none of the best shielders use 2 slot shields, and none have more than 5 shield skill, and all of them play very offensively and walk away victorious from 1v2 not by "turtling" for minutes but by aggressively timing their attacks into openings.
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If there's a problem with shielders who "turtle", aka are super defensive and have nearly indestructable shields, then just cap shield skill at 5 and maybe nerf some of the 2 slot shields. A lot easier than radically changing a class. People who do that are just newbies anyways. From my observations on NA at at least, basically none of the best shielders use 2 slot shields, and none have more than 5 shield skill, and all of them play very offensively and walk away victorious from 1v2 not by "turtling" for minutes but by aggressively timing their attacks into openings.
Dan
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Why? I dunno? Cuz you dislike them personally even though you have never played one seriously. Terrible. Did you get beat by a shielder and make this as a ragepost?
I'm currently playing as shielder.
There aren't many shielders on EU server that can beat me (on my 2H main) easily if I have decent armor on me.
I want to make shielders better against twohanders and polearms.
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Doesn't Dan use elite cav shield (since he has riding skill?)?
Maybe that guy on Fallen who wears mongol armor and is pretty good with the scimitar and the metal shield (I think the 2 slot one).
But otherwise go look at most top shielders very few go heavy shield and more than 5 skill.
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Doesn't Dan use elite cav shield (since he has riding skill?)?
Maybe that guy on Fallen who wears mongol armor and is pretty good with the scimitar and the metal shield (I think the 2 slot one).
But otherwise go look at most top shielders very few go heavy shield and more than 5 skill.
He uses the huscarl if he doesn't spawn on his horse, and he has 6 shield last I checked.
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uhhh I played shielder for like 6+ gens, most recently 2 gens ago. Yes occasionally someone that is practically inside you can pull off a swing past your shield, but if you have good positioning it's very rare (I can probably count on 1 hand the # of times it happened to me).
I find shielders just as effective as they ever were for breaking up formations and causing chaos among ranks.
So no I don't think more forcefield changes need to be made.
ANd how many of these gens were done AFTER October 2011? I highly doubt more than 1 gen....prob less than 2 weeks play for you as played after 2.41 shield nerf patch. And the hiltslashes thru the shield arent nearly as common and someone phasing thru your model/shield and hitting you from behind. How about arrows going right thru the shield model in certain shield 'weakspots'?
Again, you'd know these things if you had a clue what you were talking about, but you dont since you're not a shielder. Not everyone should be expected to use the pro mrshine 24+ AGI whore builds to avoid 2h heroes getting point blank on them.
Shields have been broken for getting close to a year now. The reason they arent fixed is less than a handful of high profile players use them on a regular basis (San)
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I'm currently playing as shielder.
There aren't many shielders on EU server that can beat me (on my 2H main) easily if I have decent armor on me.
I want to make shielders better against twohanders and polearms.
What does a shield have to do with beating a 2h/pole? If you are good at holding/feinting/combos/chambers you will land hits, and probably win if you do it better than your opponent. If he's better and can outfight you, he'll probably win.
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My first suggestion is what I think should be done about shields. You're here to point out where I'm making mistakes and I'm very grateful on that.
This isn't "Leshma wants to nerf shielders" topic.
This is "shields are broken and should be fixed somehow" topic.
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What does a shield have to do with beating a 2h/pole? If you are good at holding/feinting/combos/chambers you will land hits, and probably win if you do it better than your opponent. If he's better and can outfight you, he'll probably win.
That's the problem. I'm often losing against players who are worse than me, just because I have a shield.
On my main those players can dream winning against me in most situations. Also, as I pointed out, if I put shield on my back and fight like "swashbuckler" I will win against those players.
Obviously, there is a problem with the way shields work that doesn't allow me to beat those who are worse than me but have long and spammy greatswords.
I'm actually regretting for putting points in shield skill. As swashbuckler, I would get shot a lot more but I know how to dodge. I'll be faster without shield and win most melee fights easily.
Even with shield, I get shot all the time, have to wear light armor to be moderately fast and so many hits go through my shield.
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ANd how many of these gens were done AFTER October 2011? I highly doubt more than 1 gen....prob less than 2 weeks play for you as played after 2.41 shield nerf patch. And the hiltslashes thru the shield arent nearly as common and someone phasing thru your model/shield and hitting you from behind. How about arrows going right thru the shield model in certain shield 'weakspots'?
Again, you'd know these things if you had a clue what you were talking about, but you dont since you're not a shielder. Not everyone should be expected to use the pro mrshine 24+ AGI whore builds to avoid 2h heroes getting point blank on them.
Shields have been broken for getting close to a year now. The reason they arent fixed is less than a handful of high profile players use them on a regular basis (San)
I see shine as a shielder fairly often, so you don't really know what you are talking about. You make it seem like shielders are the most gimped class in crpg, but they are fine right now. Maybe the NH shield builds with low agi and throwing are gimped, but thats another story.
That's the problem. I'm often losing against players who are worse than me, just because I have a shield.
On my main those players can dream winning against me in most situations. Also, as I pointed out, if I put shield on my back and fight like "swashbuckler" I will win against those players.
Obviously, there is a problem with the way shields work that doesn't allow me to beat those who are worse than me but have long and spammy greatswords.
Do you think maybe it could just be your style of play doesn't maximize the class?
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Might be but this isn't just me.
I only know few people that are actually better as shielders than with no shield weapons. Byzantium_Renegat is the best example but that's because he's epic shielder and slightly above average twohander.
I know from experience that people who are good at this game are harder to beat if you break their shield. That tells a lot about shields imo.
Shields are useful in clusterfucks but you need to watch your back in there to avoid numerous teamhits.
Being a shielder is gimped imho. Probably the most gimped class I've tried, both 1H shielder and hoplite.
Everything else gives better results and is much easier to play.
Edit: Actually pure thrower, HA and HT are harder to play but that's not the point.
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What you call gimped, I would call a trade off. You won't be as effective in a duel against 2h/polearm melee player, but you are better in battle (clusterfucks as you say) and you are more effective against ranged. If every class was equal in 1v1 melee, 2h/polearms would be the worst class, because everyone else would have what they have + something else (shield, bow, etc)
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Leshma, I think this is the first time I've ever agreed with your original post.
Just a small addition:
If shield skill no longer improve forcefield coverage, can their be a buff in shield speed due to skill. This effect would be further useful and emulated in the quick blocks to portect shield HP. Currently a shield blocks slower than manual, so increase block speed due to skill would help a lot with the new system. Also it would make the skill actually viable, currently its useless.
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The reason I have trouble with making shields better for dueling is how does that make it any better than manual blocking? If you use a crap shield and have low shield skill, of course it will break easily. Agi shielders already have highly durable shields (25+ hits for a non-shieldbreaker).
That's the problem. I'm often losing against players who are worse than me, just because I have a shield.
On my main those players can dream winning against me in most situations. Also, as I pointed out, if I put shield on my back and fight like "swashbuckler" I will win against those players.
How would your suggestion make it easier/more interesting to fight in duels when swashbuckling performs just fine? 1h without shield is actually pretty good in duels, anyways. It seems as though you need a timing similar to a chamber without any of the benefits. 1h has high chances of getting free hits if they chamber with overhead and sometimes left swing. If you tap block correctly, your shield takes less damage. The people good enough to do that reliably would probably just chamber or completely defeat those opponents anyways.
I'm actually regretting for putting points in shield skill. As swashbuckler, I would get shot a lot more but I know how to dodge. I'll be faster without shield and win most melee fights easily.
Even with shield, I get shot all the time, have to wear light armor to be moderately fast and so many hits go through my shield.
That's why, for me, it makes sense to have shields perform well against multiple opponents. You can do better in 1v1 without a shield typically, and dodging ranged can still be effective, yet 1h without shield can be a huge pain against multiple opponents. The longer weapons get stunned, while the shorter/heavier weapons can't reach anyone and you get easily surrounded.
Sometimes, it does feel like what you said, sometimes. With heater shields, you can still get hit over your shoulder or on your sides (arrow hitting from 30 degrees to your left/right) sometimes. With some of the round shields like elite cav, you are susceptible to getting hit on your legs. Minimum 3 shield skill is required for high tier shields like the brown lion heater. Even so, most shielders take at least 5 just for the sake of convenience for picking up all the viable shields off the ground. Adding any more is optional for how durable you want your shield to become.
It will be odd if shield was that beneficial with only a few points spent on them, right? High shield skill is a huge commitment, since those extra 3-4 points could go into ironflesh or weapon master. I'd rather have high shield skill buffed a little bit, since only the most dedicated like Matey or Eyebeat (as far as NA is concerned) I would imagine have it that high.
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High shield skill, agi build and short but damaging weapon... that is the same as playing kiting archer, backpedaling glaive/2H spammer etc.
No buff needed for those playstyles, that's for sure.
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I would just like to see more shield diversity. As it stands, those no reason to take any but a handful of shields.
I would like to see most shields weaker against shield breakers. I would like to see some shields more resistant to shield breakers. Those that become more resistant get their speed dropped dramatically.
Different shields should serve different purposes. Some could be used for holding areas and pushing. Others used for straight combat. Give me diversity, damnit!
I'd still use a elite cav shield equivalent. Ok coverage, near instant blocks, and solid HP/armor ratio.
Need more diversity in models and shield weight/vrs durability.
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It seems the solution is to buff lower tier shields, cause right now they are absolutley useless. The only exception is brown lion and board shield........
I'd use 2 skill shields if they didn't break in 3hits from a 1h sword and weight as much as the 4-5 skill shields. At that level what is the fucking point? So buff them, or get rid of them and replace with functioning shields.
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I always play shielder and I destroy most 2h users (not the really good ones). They are my favorite prey! I don't think shielders have to be any better at this role....in general.
Some builds, equipment load-outs, and play styles won't be as good at this role. I don't think that the mechanics have to be changed to facilitate this though, imo.
The only problem with shields right now that I can find is the phase-through.
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I see shine as a shielder fairly often, so you don't really know what you are talking about. You make it seem like shielders are the most gimped class in crpg, but they are fine right now. Maybe the NH shield builds with low agi and throwing are gimped, but thats another story.
Do you think maybe it could just be your style of play doesn't maximize the class?
We don't have a problem getting kills with our low agi builds...Diggles' complaints are more related to siege tactics and how easy it is for people to walk through shieldwalls when we're trying to hold a choke, he's usually still around top of charts in personal k:d. Our builds are similar to a lot of high scoring NA shielders (San, Manowar, Arrowaine) we just give up either 3 STR or 3 AGI to pick up throwing.
Leshma if you do better as 1h swashbuckling than with shield equipped it sounds like you just aren't a very good shielder. It takes a while to learn the footwork and timing of shield fighting vs. parry fighting, more than 1 gen. I am the opposite when I duel without my shield I do terrible, not because I can't parry (I am decent) but usually cuz my timing is off and people are dancing out of my range cuz footwork is different with shield compared to without.
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You might be right, I'm playing without sound after all. Hard to tell when my shield blocked hits and when enemy feinted.
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That's the problem. I'm often losing against players who are worse than me, just because I have a shield.
On my main those players can dream winning against me in most situations. Also, as I pointed out, if I put shield on my back and fight like "swashbuckler" I will win against those players.
Obviously, there is a problem with the way shields work that doesn't allow me to beat those who are worse than me but have long and spammy greatswords.
I'm actually regretting for putting points in shield skill. As swashbuckler, I would get shot a lot more but I know how to dodge. I'll be faster without shield and win most melee fights easily.
Even with shield, I get shot all the time, have to wear light armor to be moderately fast and so many hits go through my shield.
What shield are you currently using? Because the dilemma you face when choosing a shield for 1v1 when you're at a decent level is basically shield speed vs. shield width. The fastest shields that are viable choices, such as the Knightly Heater or Kite Shield, have poor width, which opens you up to 2hs sweeping around your side and hiltslashing you if your weapon is too short/doesn't have a thrust. Using a wider shield like the heavy round or huscarl makes this pretty much a non-issue if you're playing correctly but makes it harder to feint against good opponents.
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If there's a problem with shielders who "turtle", aka are super defensive and have nearly indestructable shields, then just cap shield skill at 5 and maybe nerf some of the 2 slot shields. A lot easier than radically changing a class. People who do that are just newbies anyways. From my observations on NA at at least, basically none of the best shielders use 2 slot shields, and none have more than 5 shield skill, and all of them play very offensively and walk away victorious from 1v2 not by "turtling" for minutes but by aggressively timing their attacks into openings.
I am so offended.
That's the problem. I'm often losing against players who are worse than me, just because I have a shield.
On my main those players can dream winning against me in most situations. Also, as I pointed out, if I put shield on my back and fight like "swashbuckler" I will win against those players.
Obviously, there is a problem with the way shields work that doesn't allow me to beat those who are worse than me but have long and spammy greatswords.
I'm actually regretting for putting points in shield skill. As swashbuckler, I would get shot a lot more but I know how to dodge. I'll be faster without shield and win most melee fights easily.
Even with shield, I get shot all the time, have to wear light armor to be moderately fast and so many hits go through my shield.
if you are worse at melee with your shield than without then you just need to practice dueling with a shield more. lots of people cry when you duel with a shield but it takes a lot of practice to actually be good at dueling with a shield. the majority of "good shielders" are actually more dangerous without their shield in 1v1 situations because fighting with a shield and without are very different and most players spend a lot more time practicing dueling without a shield.
p.s. the only thing i would really change with shields right now is give them back the forcefield, make it very much based off the players shield skill. why would i want this back? because it allows for shielders to protect their teamates from arrows which encourages teamplay and makes shielders more useful in team situations. in my experience with strat where huscarls are really rare until its been going for quite awhile... the shielders can protect themselves decently, but everyone else is just going to get shot to death. it would be nice if a shield wall could actually offer some protection to the non shielders who cower behind it; that would also go a long way to balancing out archers a bit more for strat.
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There's more than one way to play shielder...not just using 4 shield skill and the fastest shields.
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As swashbuckler, I would get shot a lot more but I know how to dodge. I'll be faster without shield and win most melee fights easily.
Do it, it's a lot of fun. Just let me add that every weapon that is longer than yours are going to spam you. You'll have to be ready to block a lot. I've seen you block, and you make some easily avoidable mistakes. :P
But sure, join me and Teeth. :)
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But sure, join me and Teeth. :)
*cough*
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I like playing shielder and played it for almost 3 gens now. (On my third atm, almost 30 :D) The main issue I have with it is the phase through that happens more often than I'd like. People go through me and I get attacked from behind when they were in front of me a second ago. It doesn't happen everytime I fight someone so its not a very common occurrence but it does happen often enough to be annoying.
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holding a shield up makes you slower then someone who is swinging and backpeddaling.
If you find a logic, please call me
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holding a shield up makes you slower then someone who is swinging and backpeddaling.
If you find a logic, please call me
This makes most 1h weapons be out of range actually, I have to just keep pushing till I can get in range with my Italian sword. Sometimes I can hit them with a right swing depending on how long of a weapon they are attacking me with, but it is also our slowest attack option.
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I would just like to see more shield diversity. As it stands, those no reason to take any but a handful of shields.
Truedat. The only shields you see anymore in the hands of people that know what they are doing are:
Knightly Heater/Kite
Elite Cavalry Shield
Heavy Round Shield
Occasionally you see a Huscarl or one of the other kite shields, but the three above are pretty much head and shoulders above the rest. That's because too many shields suffer from one or more of the following drawbacks:
-Armor <16 (causing them to be penetrated by crossbow bolts). You need >20 armor to stop a +3 Steel Bolt fired from a +3 Arbalest.
-Awful speed. 80 speed like on the Huscarl is just too slow for any kind of fast-paced combat
-2 slot. Who would give up the opportunity to carry a ranged/polearm sidearm just so their shield can survive one more axe blow?
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Truedat. The only shields you see anymore in the hands of people that know what they are doing are:
Knightly Heater/Kite
Elite Cavalry Shield
Heavy Round Shield
Actually, the reason you see most people using those 3 shields is because only a handful of people know what they are doing. :) ALL shields are viable and have their uses. Most shallow shielders just go for the fastest ones or the ones they see other people use without really exploring the options available.
-Armor <16 (causing them to be penetrated by crossbow bolts). You need >20 armor to stop a +3 Steel Bolt fired from a +3 Arbalest.
-Awful speed. 80 speed like on the Huscarl is just too slow for any kind of fast-paced combat
-2 slot. Who would give up the opportunity to carry a ranged/polearm sidearm just so their shield can survive one more axe blow?
I've played 6 gens shielder (in a row). I have used ALL the shields, and tried many of them at +3 loomed. I have never had a bolt penetrate a shield. Even the slowest shields (board, huscarl, steel shield) are fast enough for "twitch" blocking. Yes, even the steel shield!
2 slot shields are the strongest shields. Some of them can take 2 or 3 more axe shots...but they can take many more sword hits. However, they are for those who are dedicated shielders because they take that extra slot. Really, they are the best shields. If you want to hybrid, you are limited to the 1-slot shields. If you want to specialize, you have all the options available.
And there you go. I splilled the beans. There are some really great shields out there that aren't used often...it was my best kept secret. Don't tell! :)
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Leave my elite cav shield alone you 2h gaysword scum.
If you are gonna nerf something,nerf your shitty sow and german gs.
Nothing wrong with shields,you all 2h have 21/50 builds,and over 60 body armor,and over 40 cut dmg on every weapon so leave shields alone.
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gameplay sugestions are just a waste of time, devs already have their opinions and plans on all those things, nothing you say can do much to change it.
Its something like Parliament, bunch of fools with different opinions trying to convince other fools with oposite opinions that their opinion is the right one, when in fact, none of those fools care much about others arguments
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I've played 6 gens shielder (in a row). I have used ALL the shields, and tried many of them at +3 loomed. I have never had a bolt penetrate a shield. Even the slowest shields (board, huscarl, steel shield) are fast enough for "twitch" blocking. Yes, even the steel shield!
2 slot shields are the strongest shields. Some of them can take 2 or 3 more axe shots...but they can take many more sword hits.
I've also played 6 consecutive shielder gens, and I've used Brown Lion, Brown Kite, HRS, and ECS all at +3, and an unloomed Huscarl. Bolt penetration is the reason I dropped the Brown Lion, as dedicated x-bowmen shoot through it like it isn't there. Using a +3 HRS now (19 armor), and +3 steel bolts from +3 Arbalests still penetrate my shield every now and then. It's clear as day, bolt sticking out of my chest right behind the raised shield. Dedicated arbalesters are really common on siege, which is all I play, so I get plenty of chances to test this out. Never seen a bolt penetrate the unloomed Huscarl (20 armor).
Shield speed is important if you like to "drop feint", i.e. drop your block to force your opponent to release their held attack, only to block again before it lands. If you don't use this tactic, then I suppose speed is less critical. But all the good greatsworders just hold their attacks against shielders now, so unless you have all day, "drop feinting" is the fastest way to get the fight over with.
If there was a fast, high armor, round, 2-slot shield (think ECS +50 HP), I would use it instead of a crossbow sidearm. Instead, 2-slot is mostly populated with slow shields (bucklers excepted). The heavy kite-type shields have good stats, but poor horizontal coverage in melee. I like how round shields allow you to block two people on either side of you simultaneously, which kite shields can't do.
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Any shields but the heaviest 2 slot can be shot through at close range by arbalast. After that it becomes pretty variable with distance + crossbow type + shield type/skill.
I used to play with like 5 skill and a +3 huscarl but I found it was overdoing it and now just use 4 skill and a +3 heavy round. It can survive one intense fight with a 2h sword user (and like all shields, will break quickly against a polearm shieldbreaker) and when that's over and if I've won, by that time there's usually plenty of shields on ground I can scavange anyways for a new one.
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Very well, phew. There are many ways to shield, and maybe I have just gotten lucky by never having my shield shot through. If that ever happened to me, I'd probably get pissed and change which shields I use. :)
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Garison, I see you on NA siege alot. If you want your shield penetrated by a bolt, just find SoW_Claire_Alford and run at him. He will wait until you are literally touching him, then fire a +3 Steel Bolt into your face from a +3 Arbalest. It will penetrate your shield and kill you. This describes every encounter I've had with this character.
On an unrelated note, I hate how a 5 kg +3 Bar Mace will block stun a 7.5 kg shield on every held attack. And a 6.5 kg +3 Mallet will similarly crushthrough a 7.5 kg shield just about every time. If I'm going to be encumbered by so much shield weight, it would be nice if that weight actually imparted some benefit (block stun and crushthrough resistance).
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When shopping for a shield there are a few things you need to consider. This comes from 20 straight gens as a shielder.
Weight: Not such a big deal for movement speed until you get to the REALLY heavy shields. What it is important for is to stop you from getting block stunned. Yes, you can be blocked stun while carrying a shield. With a weight of 6 or less, there's a LOT of people (on NA at least) who will be able to block stun you if they hold their attack. With my 7.5 weight shield, I only get block stunned by str builds using a bar mace who are holding attacks. I even stop the mallet from crushing through some of the time.
Body Armor: Not really a huge deal. The body armor of most shields is pretty similar and your shield skill does more to mitigate damage in my opinion. It's also rare that you have a crossbow user who can penetrate shields anyway. I maybe run into 1 person a month who can penetrate my shield from close range.
Hit Points: Really important. This is what lets you take the hits. Also good if you take a stray axe hit. If a high-armor, low-hp shield takes a stray axe hit, it's going down VERY soon. If a low-armor, high HP one does, you'll get a bit more life out of it. Still, always put away your shield when fighting a shield-breaker.
Speed Rating: Despite what people say, there is a HUGE difference between speed ratings ESPECIALLY when ping differences are considered. If I see someone with a slow shield, I will move around and spam the shit out of them, 'cause I know they won't be able to react fast enough. 100 speed blocks as fast as a manual block. You can't go higher than 100. Anything less is slower than a manual block. Shield skill does increase your shield speed also. So, if you have a 100 speed shield, you're wasting points. Remember, just because your shield is in the "up" position, doesn't mean it's blocking.
Shield Height: Not really a big deal, but kind of is. I'll explain that more on the bottom. For most things though, if you see a ranged guy aiming at your head, move your shield up. If he's aiming at your feet, move your shield down.
Shield Width: Big deal. It's WAY easier to hit around a narrow shield than a wider one. A lot of times when people think that someone hit through their shield, it's because they're using a narrow one (or a slow one). With a narrow shield, you REALLY need to watch your facing. You can get away with more with a wide shield.
Now, here's where shield width and height make a big difference: the forcefield. The forcefield increase is percentage-based. Therefore if you have a smaller width and height, you get MUCH smaller returns on your forcefield size.
When you factor all of the above together, it comes down to the fact that the overall best shields in the game are round ones. They have the best coverage, good speed, good weight and good hp. (Not counting the metal ones, 'cause those are shit in my opinion)
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One thing that I would like to see changed is when you put the larger shields on your back (huscarl, heavy round) that it doesn't block your view so much. It almost forces you to drop your shield and hope its still there when you need it.
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Having shield diversity is all well and good, but Lactose brings up a far more important point then meager shield stats:
holding a shield up makes you slower then someone who is swinging and backpeddaling.
If you find a logic, please call me
I've played a shielder for 15 generations now straight, and this has always been a constant annoyance.
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Shield Skill should increase your movement speed while blocking.
It should also mitigate bolt penetration and crushthrough.
I'd trade some of the shield durability gains from shield skill for the above in a heartbeat.
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holding a shield up makes you slower then someone who is swinging and backpeddaling.
If you find a logic, please call me
Having shield diversity is all well and good, but Lactose brings up a far more important point then meager shield stats:
I've played a shielder for 15 generations now straight, and this has always been a constant annoyance.
Honestly I've never run into this problem. Probably because I have 7 athletics. Now since I don't wear armor any more, I can backpeddle while blocking and move faster than a 2h running forward. It's pretty funny.
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Shield Skill should increase your movement speed while blocking.
It should also mitigate bolt penetration and crushthrough.
I'd trade some of the shield durability gains from shield skill for the above in a heartbeat.
AFAIK shield skill does mitiagte bolt penetration and crushthrough. But you are going to be playing a pretty gimped build if you want to soak up a point blank mw arb with mw steel bolts or a mighty great maul from a 36-39/3 build.
Honestly I've never run into this problem. Probably because I have 7 athletics. Now since I don't wear armor any more, I can backpeddle while blocking and move faster than a 2h running forward. It's pretty funny.
This is one of the reasons I wouldn't go below 6 ath as a shielder.
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AFAIK shield skill does mitiagte bolt penetration and crushthrough.
Crushthrough is currently only a function of weight ratio (between crushing weapon and blocking weapon/shield) and strength-presumably of the crusher and not the crushee.
Bolt penetration is only a function of the bolt damage (modified by range/speed bonus/etc) and shield armor.
The Game Mechanic Megathread covers all this: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,23607.0.html (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,23607.0.html)
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Crushthrough is currently only a function of weight ratio (between crushing weapon and blocking weapon/shield) and strength.
Bolt penetration is only a function of the bolt damage (modified by range/speed bonus/etc) and shield armor.
The Game Mechanic Megathread covers all this: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,23607.0.html (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,23607.0.html)
For a crossbow to penetrate a shield it's damage will have to be above 30 + 3*(shield's armor). What this means is that without taking speed bonus (you running towards the shooter) into account a loomed arbalestman at close range will probably shoot through shields with less than 20 resistance (30 + 20*3 = 90 damage). At under 15 shield resistance (30 + 15*3 = 75 damage) you start to seriously risk getting your shield penetrated by a bolt.
Doesn't shield skill increase your resistance?
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Doesn't shield skill increase your resistance?
Paul posted the equation and specifically labeled "shield armor" as the only shield attribute in the equation. http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,19324.msg275435.html#msg275435 (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,19324.msg275435.html#msg275435)
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Having shield diversity is all well and good, but Lactose brings up a far more important point then meager shield stats:
I've played a shielder for 15 generations now straight, and this has always been a constant annoyance.
This is why I recommend shielders put some points into throwing. As much as Egan likes to mock my clan's builds, with throwing 1) we can't be kited, 2) and we can rape horses, normally 2 things which are the bane of shielders. When someone tries that S key bs on me, I step back to put 15-20 feet between us, take out my axes and start popping at him. At this point he rushes up to me and stays there, no more kiting.
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I've also played 6 consecutive shielder gens, and I've used Brown Lion, Brown Kite, HRS, and ECS all at +3, and an unloomed Huscarl. Bolt penetration is the reason I dropped the Brown Lion, as dedicated x-bowmen shoot through it like it isn't there. Using a +3 HRS now (19 armor), and +3 steel bolts from +3 Arbalests still penetrate my shield every now and then. It's clear as day, bolt sticking out of my chest right behind the raised shield. Dedicated arbalesters are really common on siege, which is all I play, so I get plenty of chances to test this out. Never seen a bolt penetrate the unloomed Huscarl (20 armor).
Shield speed is important if you like to "drop feint", i.e. drop your block to force your opponent to release their held attack, only to block again before it lands. If you don't use this tactic, then I suppose speed is less critical. But all the good greatsworders just hold their attacks against shielders now, so unless you have all day, "drop feinting" is the fastest way to get the fight over with.
If there was a fast, high armor, round, 2-slot shield (think ECS +50 HP), I would use it instead of a crossbow sidearm. Instead, 2-slot is mostly populated with slow shields (bucklers excepted). The heavy kite-type shields have good stats, but poor horizontal coverage in melee. I like how round shields allow you to block two people on either side of you simultaneously, which kite shields can't do.
bolts and arrows pass trrough your shield because your shiled is not wide enough. Arrows and other ranged projectiles were comming from sides.
That is why i only use round shields,i noticed that in first 5 minutes as i played as shielder.
In eu1 if i were using long and thin shields arrows comming from side where always hitting me.
There is no beeter shield then elite cav shield and that is why everyone is using it,and that is why everyone want to buy it.
Blocks arrows from sides,it is fast,ususaly it brakes in 5-6 hits (depending on weapon it can take 10 hits from 1h,5-6 2h and 2-3 of poleaxes) but i usualy die before it gets smashed.
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Only problem is that some people are roleplaying knights or vikings and that shield doesn't fit well.
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There is den bitre dudes who use husakarls shield and they do fine. King glype and sultan eren are best example of hoplite players.
Board shield is nice for cover,there was one guy petar who used it in duel server and he was annoying as fuck. To bad it doesn't realy fit into any ropleplay
and it is ugly,but exept of look it is pretty fine.
steel and plated covered shields are nice for dtv game mode,i will use it there when i get 6 shield skill.
heavy round shield is not common,but it is still good shield,and ppl use it.
knightly heather shield can block arrows from sides,it is so knightly shield. Fits perfectly.
Brown Lion Heater Shield is also nice and fits knightly theme,Green Crescent Heater Shield is also nice shield i saw few horsmen use it.
Steel Buckler were used by Mala and cora,and it is used moustly on rageball or siedge.
So there is other good shields as you can see,and they can fit a lot of themes,it just depends on your playstyle and what you like to have.
I love speed so i waill always pick elite cav shield because it have 103 speed,and it is light.
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Shield Skill should increase your movement speed while blocking.
It should also mitigate bolt penetration and crushthrough.
I'd trade some of the shield durability gains from shield skill for the above in a heartbeat.
now this is what i like to hear. :D
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Doesn't shield skill increase your resistance?
Resistance only lowers the amount of damage the shield takes.
So, let's say you have 5 shield skill. You have 40% resistance. If 50 damage goes to your shield after it makes it past the armor, your shield will only take 30 points of damage.
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heavy round shield is not common,but it is still good shield,and ppl use it.
funny how it's pretty common on NA but not EU...
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funny how it's pretty common on NA but not EU...
HRS is definitely the shield to have on NA. ECS is very nice too, but HRS is about 20% more durable with 50% more coverage, and the speed is still fast enough to "drop feint". ECS stops bolts better and can be used on horseback.
I'd love a shield with stats right between the ECS and the HRS. 35 diameter, 94 speed, 300 HP, 18 armor.
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it sounds like some of you are finally understanding how to play shielder :D
but its not 6+ ath... its 8ath or no balls.
agi shielding with light armour is the way to go if you know how to use your shield. if you have medium or heavy armour and less than 6 shield skill then you arent really a shielder... you are just a guy who likes to carry a piece of wood around to take a few hits but isnt proficient enough with it to avoid getting hit all the time anyways and thus needs armour and hp.
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unfortunately shield can't stop: arrows from behind/side, teamwounds from behind, and horsebumps (which take 1/2 hp in light armour). I played a long time in leather and huscarl shield, it's much nicer being able to take 5+ hits in decent armor.
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it sounds like some of you are finally understanding how to play shielder :D
but its not 6+ ath... its 8ath or no balls.
agi shielding with light armour is the way to go if you know how to use your shield. if you have medium or heavy armour and less than 6 shield skill then you arent really a shielder... you are just a guy who likes to carry a piece of wood around to take a few hits but isnt proficient enough with it to avoid getting hit all the time anyways and thus needs armour and hp.
One word: teammates.
In theory, a shielder shouldn't need armor or Ironflesh. Except you will get teamhit in every encounter.
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Yes, I have to beef up because I'm constantly getting team hit.
I HAVE A SHORT WEAPON I HAVE TO GET CLOSE WHY CAN"T YOU SEE ME
;)
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Yes, I have to beef up because I'm constantly getting team hit.
I HAVE A SHORT WEAPON I HAVE TO GET CLOSE WHY CAN"T YOU SEE ME
;)
If they made a light armor that offered 100% protection from teammates and 0% protection from enemies, I bet it would be the most popular item in the history of crpg.
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it sounds like some of you are finally understanding how to play shielder :D
but its not 6+ ath... its 8ath or no balls.
agi shielding with light armour is the way to go if you know how to use your shield. if you have medium or heavy armour and less than 6 shield skill then you arent really a shielder... you are just a guy who likes to carry a piece of wood around to take a few hits but isnt proficient enough with it to avoid getting hit all the time anyways and thus needs armour and hp.
I can't play as agi shielder because I don't have +3 one hander and even if I did have something damaging like Military Cleaver it's still not enough against all those armoured people with 75-80 HP. Steel Pick and Warhammer are only viable choiced for agi shielder, and those weapons aren't my cup of tea. I like swords.
But my total armor weight is 2.
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unfortunately shield can't stop: arrows from behind/side, teamwounds from behind, and horsebumps (which take 1/2 hp in light armour). I played a long time in leather and huscarl shield, it's much nicer being able to take 5+ hits in decent armor.
I noticed you spending a lot more time at the top of the scoreboard when you switched from that tribal leather to real armor ;-)
Oni manages to wreck in light armor as 1h, but not many people are cool like that.
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I can't play as agi shielder because I don't have +3 one hander and even if I did have something damaging like Military Cleaver it's still not enough against all those armoured people with 75-80 HP. Steel Pick and Warhammer are only viable choiced for agi shielder, and those weapons aren't my cup of tea. I like swords.
But my total armor weight is 2.
Go 18/21. 6 PS is more than enough to kill someone with a sword. It's all about held attacks and speed bonus.
One word: teammates.
In theory, a shielder shouldn't need armor or Ironflesh. Except you will get teamhit in every encounter.
I can attest to this. I don't wear armor anymore and it seems like 80-90% of my deaths are the result of teammates. They either TK me, or hit me in the back and some asshole 1 shots me.
My biggest fear is when teammates come to "help" me.
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I'm seriously thinking about that build. That way I will be able to make cav/1h/polearm hybrid.
Currently I'm 21/14 and it's not that bad. I learned few useful tricks, how to deal with other shielders. I'm stil bad at range and backpedaling enemies kill me often.
Left swing spam while going sideways to force hiltslashes works like a charm against most shielders. Too bad I can't do that vs 2H, because I'm risking to get into dangerous zone where my shield isn't doing its job anymore...
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It's a sad testament to the state of 1h/shield, but most shielders would agree that other shielders are their easiest opponents.
2h just hiltslash or backpedal or kick you to death, polearm will usually break your shield in 3 hits, maulers crush you, archers/xbow/throwers kite you, cav couch you. You have to significantly out-skill any of these classes to beat them. Meanwhile, a 2h or pole that's been playing for a month will usually beat a shielder of equal or slightly greater skill.
I've never played 2h in my life until I made a 18/21 STF mauler, and I do better with him just spamming overheads and never blocking than I do with +12 worth of looms as a shielder. Pathetic.
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Man, other shielders are my hardest opponents. Easiest is 2hand and pole for me.
I have to carry an axe sidearm for when I come up against a shielder. If I'm impatient, they kill me. If I'm patient, the fight takes forever.
I always have 5 or 6 athl though, so back pedals don't work against me. Maulers can be dodged easy enough if you are quick. I use tough shields so even shield-breakers don't bother me too much. I can usually kill them b4 I break. Archers are easy meals. Cav is the pain in the ass for me...and other shielders.
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Man, other shielders are my hardest opponents. Easiest is 2hand and pole for me.
I have to carry an axe sidearm for when I come up against a shielder. If I'm impatient, they kill me. If I'm patient, the fight takes forever.
Even without an axe, most novice shielders fall for held attacks like crazy. Heck, I fall for them all the time still.
I usually bring an axe sidearm anyway. Light 1h Axe is cheap, fast, and many novice shielders are too slow to get an attack in if you just facehug and spam away, mix in a hold every now and then.
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I agree about the light 1h axe. That's what I use. It's only 1 weight! :) best sidearm ever.
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I'm not playing this for long but there are three ways dealing with enemy shielders:
1) If they are passive - spam left swing and don't stop. Make sure you're in their face and go from left to right and if they try to hit you back you'll hiltslash them (works for me)
2) If they are aggressive - you can try to outspam them but maybe it's better to mix passive and aggressive style, passive with holds of course, turtling is no no
3) If they are aggressive - put shield on back and abuse advatange in weapon and blocking speed you've got, very risky if you're not good manual blocker, you can spam but holds work better in this situation
Works fine so far against most shielders. But most shielders aren't experienced players so it's not really surprising.
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Honestly I've never run into this problem. Probably because I have 7 athletics. Now since I don't wear armor any more, I can backpeddle while blocking and move faster than a 2h running forward. It's pretty funny.
Do you use a pick? Are you above level 30? Or your build has 7 athletics but gimps most other things?
It's not really a comparison since most shield users are either balanced or strength oriented, with armour.
Agi build (15-21) for a shield user is only viable with a pick. (Maybe the regular espada too)
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Do you use a pick? Are you above level 30? Or your build has 7 athletics but gimps most other things?
It's not really a comparison since most shield users are either balanced or strength oriented, with armour.
Agi build (15-21) for a shield user is only viable with a pick. (Maybe the regular espada too)
The pick is a lame weapon and I refuse to use it. But, that's not what this is about.
I'm above level 30 now, but that's just because I got tired of retiring. But, I've done many, many gens as shielder and have done every kind of build possible. The "standard" shielder build (21/15) is AWFUL in my opinion. Footwork is the single most important thing when you are a shielder. 5 athletics is just not enough ESPECIALLY if you are wearing armor. 6 athletics is pretty much needed as a shielder. 21/18, 18/18, 18/21 are all really good shielder builds. They are all really similar, but I think the extra athletics from the 18/21 is more important than 21/18. 1-handers have low damage anyway, which means they gain less from extra power strike than poles and 2-handers. But, extra athletics gives you greater mobility, which is really important with a short weapon.
Here's an 18/21 build. My regular build was always 4 IF and 0 WM, but if I was doing it again and wearing armor, I'd do this:
Strength: 18
Agility: 21
Hit points: 57
Skills to attributes: 8
Ironflesh: 2
Power Strike: 6
Shield: 6
Athletics: 7
Weapon Master: 2
One Handed: 125
You also said that most shielders are balanced (which those builds up there are) or strength-based with armor. Well, I will counter that by saying most shielders are really, REALLY shitty who have no idea what they are doing. And anyone who thinks that you can only use a pick to do well with 15 str has a lack of imagination or skill, but probably both.
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Have you tried killing a strength build tin can with 15 strength?
I can be done, it just takes 5-8 hits depending on the weapon.
I have wanted to go 15/21 many times but always when I get to 15 strength and play it a bit I change my mind because you really don't have enough kill power imho. I use a +3 Italian and +3 Iberian
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Have you tried killing a strength build tin can with 15 strength?
I can be done, it just takes 5-8 hits depending on the weapon.
I have wanted to go 15/21 many times but always when I get to 15 strength and play it a bit I change my mind because you really don't have enough kill power imho. I use a +3 Italian and +3 Iberian
A strength build tin can is going to take extra hits for anyone. They are also very slow and easy to run around. Combing held attacks with stabs, or using a blunt weapons, they still go down really fast. I can usually get in 2 hits for every swing they make. A left slash, followed by a stab is very effective. Especially since the change to 1h stabs makes it a lot easier to pull of stabs from close range.
Or with your blunt weapon, if you get a knockdown, hit them again, kick them and hit them one more time. There's 3 hits right there in a short amount of time.
Generally, the difference between going from 15 str to 21 str is it takes you one less hit to kill someone. You're only increasing your damage output by 16%, which is nothing for a 1-hander. Your MW Iberian (31 blunt) with 15 str will do 43 blunt and with 21 str it will do roughly 48 blunt. Not a huge difference.
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Problem is, that will all these cav and ranged players around, you don't have that extra time. That's why people choose str builds.
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It is when you factor in armour soak and you do 2 damage vs 7 for example.
Because 1h does low damage powerstrike is important because it will significantly increase your effective damage on heavily armoured targets.
When I ran with a 24/15 build and had powerstrike 8 I had many tincans comment on how much damage I hit them for. Actually not many people regardless of their armour survived 2 hits.
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It is when you factor in armour soak and you do 2 damage vs 7 for example.
Because 1h does low damage powerstrike is important because it will significantly increase your effective damage on heavily armoured targets.
When I ran with a 24/15 build and had powerstrike 8 I had many tincans comment on how much damage I hit them for. Actually not many people regardless of their armour survived 2 hits.
Not really a big deal. With the scenario above and 15 str vs 24 you'll do about 6 more points of damage per swing even against someone in heavy armor. So, you'll probably kill them in one less swing.
So, let's say you use your hammer against some guy with 80 hit points wearing 65 armor. Let's say you have 100 wpf after armor reduction.
According to the damage calculator: http://alpha-lider19.ru/MB/
With 5 Power Strike and ignoring both speed bonus and held attacks, it will take you 5-11 body shots to kill the guy. Let's say an average of 8 hits. If it was 4-10 body shots, (which I think it really should be) that would put you at an average of 7 hits.
With 6 Power Strike, it will take you 4-9 body shots to kill the guy. An average of 6.5 hits.
With 7 Power strike, it will take you 4-8 body shots to kill the guy. An average of 6 hits.
With 8 Power Strike, it will take you 4-7 body shots to kill the guy. An average of 5.5 hits
So, if you look at this, going up one level of power strike will take you on average 1 less hit to kill a guy. The results for 5 power strike are kind of an anomaly, and I figure that the damage was just on the cusp. Doing a different value for hitpoints would probably put it in the 4-10 hit range which makes more sense.
If you added in WPF (figuring the less Power Strike the more WPF you'd have) I'd say the numbers would be even closer. Add in speed bonus, probably closer still. Power Strike just doesn't have the HUGE effect that people think it does. Obviously killing people faster is a good thing, but if that's all that matters, you're better off rolling a 2-hander or a polearm guy just because of their higher initial damage and longer reach.
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the concerns about getting killed by teammates are well founded indeed... my solution is to run far far away from teammates so that i can fight by myself... this usually means fighting multiple opponents but since im speedy and can block multiple directions it isnt so bad, and when you get into a 1v4 and slowly wittle away and kill 3 guys before the 4th runs away (and then dies cause he runs slow) it is a pretty epic feeling.
as for the hardest opponents for me... in battle it doesnt really matter what weapon or armour people have... they are all about equal... other than good players using great mauls (in which case they are evil evil people). in duel... the worst opponents for me are guys like homey who roll around with +3 persian axe and heavy armour and tons of str... fuck you homey. but i find people fight differently in battle than they do in duel... even if its a 1v1 situation, people are in far more of a hurry in battle so they are usually easier to deal with.
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I agree with suggestions 1,3, and 4.
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I just read this thread and apparently I have no idea how to be an effective shielder.
the concerns about getting killed by teammates are well founded indeed... my solution is to run far far away from teammates so that i can fight by myself... this usually means fighting multiple opponents but since im speedy and can block multiple directions it isnt so bad, and when you get into a 1v4 and slowly wittle away and kill 3 guys before the 4th runs away (and then dies cause he runs slow) it is a pretty epic feeling.
This is what being an aggressive shielder is about.
It is even better if you take out a few cav on the way. Though some of the cav I do get dehorsed on my way to the flanks sometimes will just alt-f4 because they know they are already dead.
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Question for you all: Do you think the cost on the normal steel buckler (the one that takes a slot and requires 5 shield skill) should be adjusted?
Because as it is currently implemented, I see little point in using it over alternative "fast" shields of similar rank. Compared to the Knightly Heater, it's slower, has higher requirements, has terrible side-to-side coverage, the extra resistance it offers is offset by its low HP, and, on top of all of this, it's considerably more expensive when it comes to upkeep. I used it for a generation and, while I liked the aesthetics of it, found it to be suboptimal in terms of performance and making money.
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love those siege suggestion as long as 1h parry stun is COMPLETELY removed along with them, it's fucking retarded that someone with a high weight 2h can just spam because the 1h gets block stunned all the time... fuck realism, game play wise this is ridiculous
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Question for you all: Do you think the cost on the normal steel buckler (the one that takes a slot and requires 5 shield skill) should be adjusted?
Because as it is currently implemented, I see little point in using it over alternative "fast" shields of similar rank. Compared to the Knightly Heater, it's slower, has higher requirements, has terrible side-to-side coverage, the extra resistance it offers is offset by its low HP, and, on top of all of this, it's considerably more expensive when it comes to upkeep. I used it for a generation and, while I liked the aesthetics of it, found it to be suboptimal in terms of performance and making money.
This shield is good because its only 3.5 weight. If you are focused on speed, you'll take it.
This is the shield I use when I play rageball, for example. I think it has a niche, if a small one.
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Question for you all: Do you think the cost on the normal steel buckler (the one that takes a slot and requires 5 shield skill) should be adjusted?
Because as it is currently implemented, I see little point in using it over alternative "fast" shields of similar rank. Compared to the Knightly Heater, it's slower, has higher requirements, has terrible side-to-side coverage, the extra resistance it offers is offset by its low HP, and, on top of all of this, it's considerably more expensive when it comes to upkeep. I used it for a generation and, while I liked the aesthetics of it, found it to be suboptimal in terms of performance and making money.
My understanding is that it's not really supposed to be balanced, there is no way a buckler is ever gonna have the same battlefield performance/characteristcs as a heavy infantry shield, but ingame it has to be classified as a 1 direction shield. It's there for aesthetics for someone who wants to be RP some kind of light infantry dago duelist adventurer.
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I love suggestions number 3 and 4.
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Make shields protect what they actually cover, no more buckler-catches-arrow-coming-for-the-left-foot-BS :P
Remove the buckler unless you could make it unable to block but instead give some boost to chambering. The buckler is one of the most messed up items in cRPG. Anyone with half a brain can tell you that much :3
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Make shields protect what they actually cover, no more buckler-catches-arrow-coming-for-the-left-foot-BS :P
Remove the buckler unless you could make it unable to block but instead give some boost to chambering. The buckler is one of the most messed up items in cRPG. Anyone with half a brain can tell you that much :3
ya, I always wondered why buckler wasnt 0 or 1 skill to use. it should block melee attacks well enough but fairly useless against ranged projectiles
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there is a guy with a buckler in this! https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=JC1oSTXvu2w#t=331s (lol i just watched it again and the poor shielder gets kicked... fucking 2hers and their broken kicks)
but anyways... i agree with making it next to useless vs arrows... it should stay hard to use though cause its real use should be for melee fights in order to quickly parry attacks and such. it is pretty balanced as it is though cause unless your opponent has lots of str or a shield breaker then the buckler is literally invincible. I do exactly 0 damage to unloomed bucklers with my MW long espada and 5PS 172wpf.
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I'm still of the opinion that the normal steel buckler (not the zero slot one) should have its cost reduced in light of the forcefield nerf from two (?) patches ago making it less effective than back when the price was previously set. Turboflex was of the opinion that it shouldn't outperform a full-size shield, which is a legitimate point that I agree with, but it shouldn't cost as much or more as a full-size shield in that case.
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there is a guy with a buckler in this! https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=JC1oSTXvu2w#t=331s (lol i just watched it again and the poor shielder gets kicked... fucking 2hers and their broken kicks)
All of the sudden I feel the need to buy a rus scale armor and barbuta.
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So been playing on my shielder alt, it's just as powerful as it ever was. I don't really see why I bothered proving myself right in a Leshma suggestion thread that Diggles is championing though...
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imo every arrow that a shield gets hit by should reflect to the archer who shot it
nerf range, go big
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So been playing on my shielder alt, it's just as powerful as it ever was. I don't really see why I bothered proving myself right in a Leshma suggestion thread that Diggles is championing though...
Which shield do you use?
I use a knightly heater shield and to be honest it really isn't the greatest for coverage area, but it can last a fight!
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Brown Lion Heater Shield, with 25 width.
Forcefield doesn't need to be buffed.