Shields overhaul

[Leshma]

What does a shield have to do with beating a 2h/pole? If you are good at holding/feinting/combos/chambers you will land hits, and probably win if you do it better than your opponent. If he's better and can outfight you, he'll probably win.

That's the problem. I'm often losing against players who are worse than me, just because I have a shield.

On my main those players can dream winning against me in most situations. Also, as I pointed out, if I put shield on my back and fight like "swashbuckler" I will win against those players.

Obviously, there is a problem with the way shields work that doesn't allow me to beat those who are worse than me but have long and spammy greatswords.

I'm actually regretting for putting points in shield skill. As swashbuckler, I would get shot a lot more but I know how to dodge. I'll be faster without shield and win most melee fights easily.

Even with shield, I get shot all the time, have to wear light armor to be moderately fast and so many hits go through my shield.

[oprah_winfrey]

ANd how many of these gens were done AFTER October 2011?  I highly doubt more than 1 gen....prob less than 2 weeks play for you as played after 2.41 shield nerf patch.  And the hiltslashes thru the shield arent nearly as common and someone phasing thru your model/shield and hitting you from behind.  How about arrows going right thru the shield model in certain shield 'weakspots'?
Again, you'd know these things if you had a clue what you were talking about, but you dont since you're not a shielder.  Not everyone should be expected to use the pro mrshine 24+ AGI whore builds to avoid 2h heroes getting point blank on them. 

Shields have been broken for getting close to a year now.  The reason they arent fixed is less than a handful of high profile players use them on a regular basis (San)

I see shine as a shielder fairly often, so you don't really know what you are talking about. You make it seem like shielders are the most gimped class in crpg, but they are fine right now. Maybe the NH shield builds with low agi and throwing are gimped, but thats another story.

That's the problem. I'm often losing against players who are worse than me, just because I have a shield.

On my main those players can dream winning against me in most situations. Also, as I pointed out, if I put shield on my back and fight like "swashbuckler" I will win against those players.

Obviously, there is a problem with the way shields work that doesn't allow me to beat those who are worse than me but have long and spammy greatswords.

Do you think maybe it could just be your style of play doesn't maximize the class?

[Leshma]

Might be but this isn't just me.

I only know few people that are actually better as shielders than with no shield weapons. Byzantium_Renegat is the best example but that's because he's epic shielder and slightly above average twohander.

I know from experience that people who are good at this game are harder to beat if you break their shield. That tells a lot about shields imo.

Shields are useful in clusterfucks but you need to watch your back in there to avoid numerous teamhits.

Being a shielder is gimped imho. Probably the most gimped class I've tried, both 1H shielder and hoplite.

Everything else gives better results and is much easier to play.

Edit: Actually pure thrower, HA and HT are harder to play but that's not the point.

[oprah_winfrey]

What you call gimped, I would call a trade off. You won't be as effective in a duel against 2h/polearm melee player, but you are better in battle (clusterfucks as you say) and you are more effective against ranged. If every class was equal in 1v1 melee, 2h/polearms would be the worst class, because everyone else would have what they have + something else (shield, bow, etc)

[Spa_geh_tea]

Leshma, I think this is the first time I've ever agreed with your original post.

Just a small addition:

If shield skill no longer improve forcefield coverage, can their be a buff in shield speed due to skill. This effect would be further useful and emulated in the quick blocks to portect shield HP. Currently a shield blocks slower than manual, so increase block speed due to skill would help a lot with the new system. Also it would make the skill actually viable, currently its useless.

[San]

The reason I have trouble with making shields better for dueling is how does that make it any better than manual blocking? If you use a crap shield and have low shield skill, of course it will break easily. Agi shielders already have highly durable shields (25+ hits for a non-shieldbreaker).

That's the problem. I'm often losing against players who are worse than me, just because I have a shield.

On my main those players can dream winning against me in most situations. Also, as I pointed out, if I put shield on my back and fight like "swashbuckler" I will win against those players.

How would your suggestion make it easier/more interesting to fight in duels when swashbuckling performs just fine? 1h without shield is actually pretty good in duels, anyways. It seems as though you need a timing similar to a chamber without any of the benefits. 1h has high chances of getting free hits if they chamber with overhead and sometimes left swing. If you tap block correctly, your shield takes less damage. The people good enough to do that reliably would probably just chamber or completely defeat those opponents anyways.

I'm actually regretting for putting points in shield skill. As swashbuckler, I would get shot a lot more but I know how to dodge. I'll be faster without shield and win most melee fights easily.

Even with shield, I get shot all the time, have to wear light armor to be moderately fast and so many hits go through my shield.

That's why, for me, it makes sense to have shields perform well against multiple opponents. You can do better in 1v1 without a shield typically, and dodging ranged can still be effective, yet 1h without shield can be a huge pain against multiple opponents. The longer weapons get stunned, while the shorter/heavier weapons can't reach anyone and you get easily surrounded.


Sometimes, it does feel like what you said, sometimes. With heater shields, you can still get hit over your shoulder or on your sides (arrow hitting from 30 degrees to your left/right) sometimes. With some of the round shields like elite cav, you are susceptible to getting hit on your legs. Minimum 3 shield skill is required for high tier shields like the brown lion heater. Even so, most shielders take at least 5 just for the sake of convenience for picking up all the viable shields off the ground. Adding any more is optional for how durable you want your shield to become.


It will be odd if shield was that beneficial with only a few points spent on them, right? High shield skill is a huge commitment, since those extra 3-4 points could go into ironflesh or weapon master. I'd rather have high shield skill buffed a little bit, since only the most dedicated like Matey or Eyebeat (as far as NA is concerned) I would imagine have it that high.

[Leshma]

High shield skill, agi build and short but damaging weapon... that is the same as playing kiting archer, backpedaling glaive/2H spammer etc.

No buff needed for those playstyles, that's for sure.

[Spa_geh_tea]

I would just like to see more shield diversity. As it stands, those no reason to take any but a handful of shields.

I would like to see most shields weaker against shield breakers. I would like to see some shields more resistant to shield breakers. Those that become more resistant get their speed dropped dramatically.

Different shields should serve different purposes. Some could be used for holding areas and pushing. Others used for straight combat. Give me diversity, damnit!

I'd still use a elite cav shield equivalent. Ok coverage, near instant blocks, and solid HP/armor ratio.

Need more diversity in models and shield weight/vrs durability.

[Spa_geh_tea]

It seems the solution is to buff lower tier shields, cause right now they are absolutley useless. The only exception is brown lion and board shield........

I'd use 2 skill shields if they didn't break in 3hits from a 1h sword and weight as much as the 4-5 skill shields. At that level what is the fucking point? So buff them, or get rid of them and replace with functioning shields.

[Penitent]

I always play shielder and I destroy most 2h users (not the really good ones).  They are my favorite prey!  I don't think shielders have to be any better at this role....in general.

Some builds, equipment load-outs, and play styles won't be as good at this role.  I don't think that the mechanics have to be changed to facilitate this though, imo.

The only problem with shields right now that I can find is the phase-through.

[Turboflex]

I see shine as a shielder fairly often, so you don't really know what you are talking about. You make it seem like shielders are the most gimped class in crpg, but they are fine right now. Maybe the NH shield builds with low agi and throwing are gimped, but thats another story.

Do you think maybe it could just be your style of play doesn't maximize the class?

We don't have a problem getting kills with our low agi builds...Diggles' complaints are more related to siege tactics and how easy it is for people to walk through shieldwalls when we're trying to hold a choke, he's usually still around top of charts in personal k:d. Our builds are similar to a lot of high scoring NA shielders (San, Manowar, Arrowaine) we just give up either 3 STR or 3 AGI to pick up throwing.

Leshma if you do better as 1h swashbuckling than with shield equipped it sounds like you just aren't a very good shielder. It takes a while to learn the footwork and timing of shield fighting vs. parry fighting, more than 1 gen. I am the opposite when I duel without my shield I do terrible, not because I can't parry (I am decent) but usually cuz my timing is off and people are dancing out of my range cuz footwork is different with shield compared to without.

[Leshma]

You might be right, I'm playing without sound after all. Hard to tell when my shield blocked hits and when enemy feinted.

[Pentecost]

That's the problem. I'm often losing against players who are worse than me, just because I have a shield.

On my main those players can dream winning against me in most situations. Also, as I pointed out, if I put shield on my back and fight like "swashbuckler" I will win against those players.

Obviously, there is a problem with the way shields work that doesn't allow me to beat those who are worse than me but have long and spammy greatswords.

I'm actually regretting for putting points in shield skill. As swashbuckler, I would get shot a lot more but I know how to dodge. I'll be faster without shield and win most melee fights easily.

Even with shield, I get shot all the time, have to wear light armor to be moderately fast and so many hits go through my shield.

What shield are you currently using? Because the dilemma you face when choosing a shield for 1v1 when you're at a decent level is basically shield speed vs. shield width. The fastest shields that are viable choices, such as the Knightly Heater or Kite Shield, have poor width, which opens you up to 2hs sweeping around your side and hiltslashing you if your weapon is too short/doesn't have a thrust. Using a wider shield like the heavy round or huscarl makes this pretty much a non-issue if you're playing correctly but makes it harder to feint against good opponents.

[Matey]

If there's a problem with shielders who "turtle", aka are super defensive and have nearly indestructable shields, then just cap shield skill at 5 and maybe nerf some of the 2 slot shields. A lot easier than radically changing a class. People who do that are just newbies anyways. From my observations on NA at at least, basically none of the best shielders use 2 slot shields, and none have more than 5 shield skill, and all of them play very offensively and walk away victorious from 1v2 not by "turtling" for minutes but by aggressively timing their attacks into openings.

I am so offended.

That's the problem. I'm often losing against players who are worse than me, just because I have a shield.

On my main those players can dream winning against me in most situations. Also, as I pointed out, if I put shield on my back and fight like "swashbuckler" I will win against those players.

Obviously, there is a problem with the way shields work that doesn't allow me to beat those who are worse than me but have long and spammy greatswords.

I'm actually regretting for putting points in shield skill. As swashbuckler, I would get shot a lot more but I know how to dodge. I'll be faster without shield and win most melee fights easily.

Even with shield, I get shot all the time, have to wear light armor to be moderately fast and so many hits go through my shield.

if you are worse at melee with your shield than without then you just need to practice dueling with a shield more. lots of people cry when you duel with a shield but it takes a lot of practice to actually be good at dueling with a shield. the majority of "good shielders" are actually more dangerous without their shield in 1v1 situations because fighting with a shield and without are very different and most players spend a lot more time practicing dueling without a shield.


p.s. the only thing i would really change with shields right now is give them back the forcefield, make it very much based off the players shield skill. why would i want this back? because it allows for shielders to protect their teamates from arrows which encourages teamplay and makes shielders more useful in team situations. in my experience with strat where huscarls are really rare until its been going for quite awhile... the shielders can protect themselves decently, but everyone else is just going to get shot to death. it would be nice if a shield wall could actually offer some protection to the non shielders who cower behind it; that would also go a long way to balancing out archers a bit more for strat.

[Penitent]

There's more than one way to play shielder...not just using 4 shield skill and the fastest shields.