Shields overhaul

[rustyspoon]

Do you use a pick? Are you above level 30? Or your build has 7 athletics but gimps most other things?

It's not really a comparison since most shield users are either balanced or strength oriented, with armour.

Agi build (15-21) for a shield user is only viable with a pick. (Maybe the regular espada too)

The pick is a lame weapon and I refuse to use it. But, that's not what this is about.

I'm above level 30 now, but that's just because I got tired of retiring. But, I've done many, many gens as shielder and have done every kind of build possible. The "standard" shielder build (21/15) is AWFUL in my opinion. Footwork is the single most important thing when you are a shielder. 5 athletics is just not enough ESPECIALLY if you are wearing armor. 6 athletics is pretty much needed as a shielder. 21/18, 18/18, 18/21 are all really good shielder builds. They are all really similar, but I think the extra athletics from the 18/21 is more important than 21/18. 1-handers have low damage anyway, which means they gain less from extra power strike than poles and 2-handers. But, extra athletics gives you greater mobility, which is really important with a short weapon.

Here's an 18/21 build. My regular build was always 4 IF and 0 WM, but if I was doing it again and wearing armor, I'd do this:

Strength: 18
Agility: 21
Hit points: 57
Skills to attributes: 8
Ironflesh: 2
Power Strike: 6
Shield: 6
Athletics: 7
Weapon Master: 2
One Handed: 125

You also said that most shielders are balanced (which those builds up there are) or strength-based with armor. Well, I will counter that by saying most shielders are really, REALLY shitty who have no idea what they are doing. And anyone who thinks that you can only use a pick to do well with 15 str has a lack of imagination or skill, but probably both.

[Konrax]

Have you tried killing a strength build tin can with 15 strength?

I can be done, it just takes 5-8 hits depending on the weapon.

I have wanted to go 15/21 many times but always when I get to 15 strength and play it a bit I change my mind because you really don't have enough kill power imho. I use a +3 Italian and +3 Iberian

[rustyspoon]

Have you tried killing a strength build tin can with 15 strength?

I can be done, it just takes 5-8 hits depending on the weapon.

I have wanted to go 15/21 many times but always when I get to 15 strength and play it a bit I change my mind because you really don't have enough kill power imho. I use a +3 Italian and +3 Iberian

A strength build tin can is going to take extra hits for anyone. They are also very slow and easy to run around. Combing held attacks with stabs, or using a blunt weapons, they still go down really fast. I can usually get in 2 hits for every swing they make. A left slash, followed by a stab is very effective. Especially since the change to 1h stabs makes it a lot easier to pull of stabs from close range.

Or with your blunt weapon, if you get a knockdown, hit them again, kick them and hit them one more time. There's 3 hits right there in a short amount of time.

Generally, the difference between going from 15 str to 21 str is it takes you one less hit to kill someone. You're only increasing your damage output by 16%, which is nothing for a 1-hander. Your MW Iberian (31 blunt) with 15 str will do 43 blunt and with 21 str it will do roughly 48 blunt. Not a huge difference.

[Leshma]

Problem is, that will all these cav and ranged players around, you don't have that extra time. That's why people choose str builds.

[Konrax]

It is when you factor in armour soak and you do 2 damage vs 7 for example.

Because 1h does low damage powerstrike is important because it will significantly increase your effective damage on heavily armoured targets.

When I ran with a 24/15 build and had powerstrike 8 I had many tincans comment on how much damage I hit them for. Actually not many people regardless of their armour survived 2 hits.

[rustyspoon]

It is when you factor in armour soak and you do 2 damage vs 7 for example.

Because 1h does low damage powerstrike is important because it will significantly increase your effective damage on heavily armoured targets.

When I ran with a 24/15 build and had powerstrike 8 I had many tincans comment on how much damage I hit them for. Actually not many people regardless of their armour survived 2 hits.

Not really a big deal. With the scenario above and 15 str vs 24 you'll do about 6 more points of damage per swing even against someone in heavy armor. So, you'll probably kill them in one less swing.

So, let's say you use your hammer against some guy with 80 hit points wearing 65 armor. Let's say you have 100 wpf after armor reduction.

According to the damage calculator: http://alpha-lider19.ru/MB/

With 5 Power Strike and ignoring both speed bonus and held attacks, it will take you 5-11 body shots to kill the guy. Let's say an average of 8 hits. If it was 4-10 body shots, (which I think it really should be) that would put you at an average of 7 hits.

With 6 Power Strike, it will take you 4-9 body shots to kill the guy. An average of 6.5 hits.

With 7 Power strike, it will take you 4-8 body shots to kill the guy. An average of 6 hits.

With 8 Power Strike, it will take you 4-7 body shots to kill the guy. An average of 5.5 hits

So, if you look at this, going up one level of power strike will take you on average 1 less hit to kill a guy. The results for 5 power strike are kind of an anomaly, and I figure that the damage was just on the cusp. Doing a different value for hitpoints would probably put it in the 4-10 hit range which makes more sense.

If you added in WPF (figuring the less Power Strike the more WPF you'd have) I'd say the numbers would be even closer. Add in speed bonus, probably closer still. Power Strike just doesn't have the HUGE effect that people think it does. Obviously killing people faster is a good thing, but if that's all that matters, you're better off rolling a 2-hander or a polearm guy just because of their higher initial damage and longer reach.

[Matey]

the concerns about getting killed by teammates are well founded indeed... my solution is to run far far away from teammates so that i can fight by myself... this usually means fighting multiple opponents but since im speedy and can block multiple directions it isnt so bad, and when you get into a 1v4 and slowly wittle away and kill 3 guys before the 4th runs away (and then dies cause he runs slow) it is a pretty epic feeling.

as for the hardest opponents for me... in battle it doesnt really matter what weapon or armour people have... they are all about equal... other than good players using great mauls (in which case they are evil evil people). in duel... the worst opponents for me are guys like homey who roll around with +3 persian axe and heavy armour and tons of str... fuck you homey. but i find people fight differently in battle than they do in duel... even if its a 1v1 situation, people are in far more of a hurry in battle so they are usually easier to deal with.

[Strider]

I agree with suggestions 1,3, and 4.

[EyeBeat]

I just read this thread and apparently I have no idea how to be an effective shielder.

the concerns about getting killed by teammates are well founded indeed... my solution is to run far far away from teammates so that i can fight by myself... this usually means fighting multiple opponents but since im speedy and can block multiple directions it isnt so bad, and when you get into a 1v4 and slowly wittle away and kill 3 guys before the 4th runs away (and then dies cause he runs slow) it is a pretty epic feeling.

This is what being an aggressive shielder is about.

It is even better if you take out a few cav on the way.  Though some of the cav I do get dehorsed on my way to the flanks sometimes will just alt-f4 because they know they are already dead.

[Pentecost]

Question for you all: Do you think the cost on the normal steel buckler (the one that takes a slot and requires 5 shield skill) should be adjusted?

Because as it is currently implemented, I see little point in using it over alternative "fast" shields of similar rank. Compared to the Knightly Heater, it's slower, has higher requirements, has terrible side-to-side coverage, the extra resistance it offers is offset by its low HP, and, on top of all of this, it's considerably more expensive when it comes to upkeep. I used it for a generation and, while I liked the aesthetics of it, found it to be suboptimal in terms of performance and making money.

[duurrr]

love those siege suggestion as long as 1h parry stun is COMPLETELY removed along with them, it's fucking retarded that someone with a high weight 2h can just spam because the 1h gets block stunned all the time... fuck realism, game play wise this is ridiculous

[Penitent]

Question for you all: Do you think the cost on the normal steel buckler (the one that takes a slot and requires 5 shield skill) should be adjusted?

Because as it is currently implemented, I see little point in using it over alternative "fast" shields of similar rank. Compared to the Knightly Heater, it's slower, has higher requirements, has terrible side-to-side coverage, the extra resistance it offers is offset by its low HP, and, on top of all of this, it's considerably more expensive when it comes to upkeep. I used it for a generation and, while I liked the aesthetics of it, found it to be suboptimal in terms of performance and making money.

This shield is good because its only 3.5 weight.  If you are focused on speed, you'll take it.

This is the shield I use when I play rageball, for example.  I think it has a niche, if a small one.

[Turboflex]

Question for you all: Do you think the cost on the normal steel buckler (the one that takes a slot and requires 5 shield skill) should be adjusted?

Because as it is currently implemented, I see little point in using it over alternative "fast" shields of similar rank. Compared to the Knightly Heater, it's slower, has higher requirements, has terrible side-to-side coverage, the extra resistance it offers is offset by its low HP, and, on top of all of this, it's considerably more expensive when it comes to upkeep. I used it for a generation and, while I liked the aesthetics of it, found it to be suboptimal in terms of performance and making money.

My understanding is that it's not really supposed to be balanced, there is no way a buckler is ever gonna have the same battlefield performance/characteristcs as a heavy infantry shield, but ingame it has to be classified as a 1 direction shield. It's there for aesthetics for someone who wants to be RP some kind of light infantry dago duelist adventurer.

[Patoson]

I love suggestions number 3 and 4.

[Ragni_Bross]

Make shields protect what they actually cover, no more buckler-catches-arrow-coming-for-the-left-foot-BS

Remove the buckler unless you could make it unable to block but instead give some boost to chambering. The buckler is one of the most messed up items in cRPG. Anyone with half a brain can tell you that much :3