I did in my post but everyone is shitting on me for being unable to take any insults/snitch/etc.I wasn't shitting on you.
I wasn't shitting on you.
Sorry, that was the general gist of the replies. Not yours.
I did in my post but everyone is shitting on me for being unable to take any insults/snitch/etc.
Before I put up with racist hate mongering nobody seems to want to do anything about. I won't put up with it in my life, nor my gaming, regardless of what you claim the rules are. There will be NO apology EVER for tk'ing BlindPew / Braun, I will tk that motherfucker every chance I get.
This is not a threat, it is a promise.
This was beyond the off color joke, this was pure and simple hate mongering.
This is not a threat, it is a promise.
Well our heads were used as a stair case.
And if it DOES lead to harm, it's still irrelevant, because the harm is the bad thing, not the motivation.
Really, motivation is not important? Perhaps you should ask some police investigators. Motive is just as important as the action because it explains the person's state of mind and is the difference between a murder one or a murder two charge. Simply because you think its irrelevant doesn't mean that you're horribly wrong.
It's funny how people want to ignore racism. Sure, this is a video game and all and over the internet to boot, and I largely agree that people should have thicker skin online. However, at the same time I can't agree with letting racism slide simply on that basis alone. Ignoring racism leads to accepting racism, and once its accepted it takes all kinds of effort to get rid of it. Besides, I thought this was the 21st century and we moved on from acting like attention starved shitheads.
Really, motivation is not important? Perhaps you should ask some police investigators. Motive is just as important as the action because it explains the person's state of mind and is the difference between a murder one or a murder two charge. Simply because you think its irrelevant doesn't mean that you're horribly wrong.
Of course there are differences, no question. If you shoot somebody because he was raping a woman or because he entered your lawn or because he was black is definitely three different things. But it doesn't change much about the question if you should do it or not. It's only about "was it wrong?" or "was it VERY wrong?". In the end something wrong's done, and this is what must not happen. Spamming the chat is not really something wrong done, especially if you take a look at the community, it's full of trolls anyway.
I wonder why people think "trolling is funny", but if someone decides to troll do-gooders with things like "Why do Jews have such big noses? - Because air is for free!" then they go nuts and say "You can't say that OMG". Things like these are 99% trolling and 1% racism, if at all. Use your brain, goddammit!
Letting racism slide leads to tolerating racism. And there is nothing wrong with it, it's not like someone force you to become racist and consider racism good - you can freely consider it hell on earth. It's not like racists are more likely to harm someone physically than non-racists.
You know that american law is not international law and shouldn't be taken as gossip ?
Racism is just one extra motivation for violence and overall contempt. Why are we even discussing this? Xenophobia is wrong!
Letting racism slide leads to tolerating racism. And there is nothing wrong with it, it's not like someone force you to become racist and consider racism good - you can freely consider it hell on earth. It's not like racists are more likely to harm someone physically than non-racists.
You know that american law is not international law and shouldn't be taken as gossip ?
There are already too many excuses for violence, if someone want to do, he will find another one.
What is wrong with xenophobia ? What is wrong with mistrust toward people from different area ? It was there, is there and will be there. Only naive persons don't use limited trust.
That's a racist joke, jews will generaly get offended by it. It's pretty simply.
Racism is just one extra motivation for violence and overall contempt. Why are we even discussing this? Xenophobia is wrong!
Wow, I'd love to know from which orifice you pulled this out of. All of the various black people that were lynched in the southern US simply because they were black, or the Jews killed simply because they were Jewish, or any other incidents that I haven't mentioned would not have happened if they were not the victims of racism. I wonder if Breivik's racist views on immigrants were a motivation for massacring all those people in Norway.. oh wait they were. Racism gives many people a pretext and justification for violence and this is the very reason why it shouldn't be tolerated
It promotes violence and death.
So other people can't be offended by other jokes? Like "A woman crosses the street. A man in a car sees her, steps on the gas and overruns her. Whose fault is it? - The woman's! Why did she leave her kitchen?". Shouldn't women be offended by this? Or the "Your mama..." jokes. "Your mama is so fat, when she puts on a yellow raincoat people start to shout 'Hello! Taxi!'." Should people with fat mamas or the fat mamas themselves be offended? And there are so many jokes about certain professions, from lawyers to politicians, computer scientists and whatnot. And most of them are considered "acceptable". But when someone comes and makes a joke about the noses of a certain folk, people suddenly get offended. I guess it's because they learned that now it's time to get offended.
Why? Why is xenophobia wrong? Why can't I stay among my people, if I prefer them over foreign people? Am I not allowed to choose who I like and who I don't like?
Contempting black people is wrong, but contempting contempters is right? Shouldn't your point be that contemption itself is wrong? If you decide to argue that way?
There is a huge gap between disliking certain people and harming them.
By the way different extends of wealth also promote crime => violence and death. The higher the differences in one society, the more crime there is, just take a look at South Africa, for example. Should being rich/poor get forbidden? Everyone is only allowed to earn the same salary, and if someone has great luck or bad luck the money is being taken away/refunded?
I still say you can't remove the right to dislike things.
Contempt is wrong if it produces a negative result, as is the case with people being mistreated because of xenophobia. Feeling contemp for xenophobes is obviously a good thing for society.
You can like whatever you want, but you can't treat people in a lesser way because of the way they look, that's the point of tolerance. Economics is a different matter, no need to shift the subject.
I think I need to clarify things: I am always talking about racists saying their opinion. I am NOT talking about racists who decide to "do something about it". I think you should be allowed to say "I don't like black people" as much as you are allowed to say "I don't like strawberries with cream." I do not say it is okay to express this animosity in means of mistreatment or even violence. But whenever you have the choice which is basing on your PERSONAL PREFERENCES, like who you want to let in your hobby club, which of your working mates is invited to barbecue on the weekend, and which of the two apprentices you will accept to work in your (!) bakery, you shouldn't only be allowed to do so (as you indeed are), you shouldn't also not be treated like a criminal for doing so. Of course you are free to being disliked, that's the right I am defending, but your way of judging shouldn't be more or less "forbidden". Less popular okay, unacceptable no.
Why is economics different? Your argumentation was that racism needs to be removed as it is a source for violence. I told you another source of violence, so it needs to be removed as well.
In a tolerant society you can have your personal preference and even be an open racist. What you can't do is let your prejudice affect another person's life in a bad way. Denying someone a job based on their ethnicity or so, is wrong. This is why freely calling people names, or making racist jokes online shouldn't be allowed.
The difference is that, in a general opinion, economy is a good thing, with a lot more pros than cons. Removing economy would probably take human evolution in a down slope, while enforcing tolerence does the opposite.
That's the point I am talking about. Trolling is fine, but if there is something about racism, people get offended.Look, you're a smart guy, do not pretend you do not know, or do not see the difference, just to have a discussion.
So then tell me what the point of trolling is, if not offending and enraging? Which, by the way, the the worst you can do over chat.
The guy claiming that black in spanishes are missing the 5% Neandertal DNA, in which point is he different than the guy claiming that a Katana is better than a Longsword?
Both dudes write something which can enrage certain persons and is likely false knowledge. But the one did something evil to somebody by typing this into chat, the other didn't. :?
Look, you're a smart guy, do not pretend you do not know, or do not see the difference, just to have a discussion.
You missed the entire spew that has been going on for over a week. Just imagine the inanities going on and on and on and you may start to get the picture.
I don't think people should get rewarded for being a troll, which is something bad in my eyes. I hate trolling, and I don't think it's funny, not a single bit. It's just retarded and the last refuge for humourless people. Laughing about people who rage to your very own provocations is only slightly better than going around, breaking people's legs and then laughing about how funny it looks how their bone is sticking out of the shin. It's laughing about the other's misfortune (which you aroused yourself) to make yourself feel better. In my eyes this has nothing to do with humour. I am not against making fun on somebody's cost, but it should have real pointes, not the rage itself being the pointe.(Damn, it's locked, I can't quote with link. It was the "Who's the best troll" contest topic)
Zisa he picked the ONE small part in that dialogue which me might scrape together some claim to trolling vs racism. Selective reading is quite common.
A small sample from 15/05/2012 11:49am to 1:03pm GMT-5(click to show/hide)
Reading jokes somewhere won't make you automatically mistreat other persons. And if it does, there are a LOT of other influences that should be kept away from you :rolleyes:
And I want to clarify, I think about the job question this way: if you are the human ressources manager of a big company, and you are told to find the best engineer for a certain depratment, you should indeed take the better qualified person, never mind who this is or where he comes from. But of you are the "head" of a company, and be it only a plumber who is looking for a journeyman you want to work with, it's perfectly fine to choose the one who you get along with better, than neccessarily the one with the best grades. And this also is absolutely legal (as far as I know, you are free to employ whoever you think fits best in your team), and I have already been declined somewhere, because people couldn't get warm with me (do you say it this way in English?). And it's totally your decision if this happens because you think he is an asshole or because you don't like certain people.
In short: I agree with the law in this case.
Now we are arguing realistically, and not idealistically? Well, realistically you will NEVER be able to remove racism. :wink:
If there is big offense and rage, successful troll is successful.
Yes, racism often comes naturaly, but you're not going to grow socially(not be racist) if you avoid mingling with people of an undesired ethnicity.
Much like a person who is afraid of the sea can't lose that fear without first learning how to swim. Instead of indulging your prejudices, you'll be a better member of society if you learn how not to be a racist, for the good of everyone. And this IS possible to achieve.
It is, and I guess most people do so. I do have prejudices myself (as you would have guessed, otherwise I wouldn't defend them so stubbornly :wink: ), but still I have good friends who are part of the ethnicities I dislike. They can be my friends because I estimate them as exceptions of my prejudices, which on the other hand get confirmed regularly (=> prejudices by personal experience, I am not brainwashed by media or my parents or the like. Definitely not :lol:). That's the problem with prejudices and why they sustain. :wink:Yes, that child is starving for attention, ignore it and the problem goes away. Lazy minded - Like ignoring your long ass posts make them go away. I even try not reading them sometimes, doesn't work.
I think having prejudices is okay, but it's still better if you try to evaluate every person for himself while having general prejudices, that's at least what I try. I hope this makes me appear a little less as asshole now. :oops:
But actually we are derailing the topic. Or I am. It's about what to do with those racist trolls.
My suggestion: allow it and then ignore it. Trolling needs attention to work. No attention, no trolling. If you happen to have someone who really tries to preach over chat, the missing attention will soon make him stop by himself and look for another place, because preaching needs attention as well. You can see it very well in the case of Kevin_Flynn, who perfectly feeds Sir_equus africanus asinus.
In a free society we are burdened with the nessissary evil of having to tolerate the... darker... aspects of freedom
[...]
In a free society we are burdened with the nessissary evil of having to tolerate the... darker... aspects of freedom such as bigotry and ignorance. If we were to outlaw these things, we wouldn't exactly be a free society, and that shit would suck.
I think that condeming the aspects of society that limit someone's quality of life can only be a positive thing in the long run.
Yes, insulting and getting personal always helps. Great way of debating. :|~'Because you think this is the argument room, but this is abuse...'
Yes, exactly. This type of philosophy is called 'utilitarianism'.
~'Because you think this is the argument room, but this is abuse...'
The first paragraph was directed at you, but since you seem to be devoid of any type of humor chose instead to be insulted. Also you missed the point, or perhaps you recognize the 'ignore it till it goes away' action really is a shitty non action, and want to deflect the issue.
The second paragraph contains the word 'you' but is not directed at you but at those who keep chiming in about their right to spew. My apolgies for any clarity issues.
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,32513.0.htmlAnders, you happily run to the ban forum any chance you get. Are you hoping for a gold star from the teacher?
And Zisa went and TKed him.
So, Now what makes you any different than the racist? If this was RL, you'd have been sent to prison for murder of the first degree.
Sigh this reminds me of Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, the time you are on Manaan. The selkath: "Words can be ignored, but action will not" This was in terms to the fact that Sith were essentially doing much the same as people do with "racist" speech. The Soldiers of the republic had enough and attacked the sith. They got thrown into jail. Who's wrong there, the sith or the republic?(in terms of today) Both were.(click to show/hide)
Anders, you happily run to the ban forum any chance you get. Are you hoping for a gold star from the teacher?
The shit you are full of is so putrid it is not worth my time to try and wade through to find any sense. Go find someone else to make miserable you whiney rules lawyer. Go argue with shadows.
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,32513.0.html
And Zisa went and TKed him.
So, Now what makes you any different than the racist? If this was RL, you'd have been sent to prison for murder of the first degree.
I think there's a difference between hate speech/tking in game and hate speech/murder in real life. It's comparing apples and oranges.
Also it would most likely not be first degree homicide as it was not premeditated (at least in the US states).
Phantom's reply, I am sorry to say, went something like this...
EDIT: Phantoms Reply to Zisa was much the same as I said.
(click to show/hide)
Phantom's reply, I am sorry to say, went something like this...
saw 'bundle of sticks' out of the corner of his eye, but did not actually read this :
The threat of silliness should be present in all
things. Otherwise we get a swarm of toughguys yelling
bundle of sticks at the cRPG/Internet population
Then did not actually read my post. It's a shame because he seems to have seen one word, focused on it and colored any view of anything else I read, and erroneously thinks he knows where I am coming from.
Since the other thread got locked, I'll put it here.
For me, this is a pretty serious issue. I'm talking about discrimination. I'm not sure how can we successfully deal with it.
General rule against it won't work because it's hard to tell (for most admins) when it's trolling and when it's racism or hate speech. Also, I'm sure that we have admins who approve various forms of discimination.
We have a lot of younger people in this community, many of them aren't educated in a way to think with their own heads. As long as there are people who don't think on their own, there will be racism and discrimination. Only way to fight it is education but we're here to play a game and have fun, not to educate people.
So you will TK someone who makes racist comments, that helps how...? I agree with Joker on the issue though don't really feel like getting into the discussion. Perhaps if you have no tolerance at all for racism, what about patriotism and nationalism for example, i would say the line between these is pretty blurry. Perhaps we should ban all the ppl who for example troll about how superior US or any other country is, enough people have been killed in the past for nationalism, sure they most likely mean no harm and it's just teasing to get a few ppl angry but it's most likely the same with most racist comments that you hear in cRPG.
The guy claiming that black in spanishes are missing the 5% Neandertal DNA, in which point is he different than the guy claiming that a Katana is better than a Longsword?
Christo help me they are doing it more than once a day now !!!!!
You serious?
The guy claiming that black in spanishes are missing the 5% Neandertal DNA, in which point is he different than the guy claiming that a Katana is better than a Longsword?
"It was very simple, and at the end of that moving appeal to every altruistic sentiment it blazed at you, luminous and terrifying, like a flash of lightning in a serene sky: 'Exterminate all the brutes!'".
Dogs that bark dont bite.
Well, you guys know my stance on this.That's because you are a careless and entitled fuckwit.
Game has a mute function. IRL Violence is impossible in this game (a) because nobody cares that much and b) because it is anonymous). I see 0 reasons to ban racism. If you use the Internet for anything more than Facebook (and even then) you will find far worst stuff so it's high time we give the crybabies a chance to develop a thicker skin.
And quite honestly, someone with perma-butthurt who is chronically offended at EVERYTHING is even worse to play with than a genuine racist.
Yes, I personally say racist jokes late night in NA. In fact, it is a sort of tradition in late NA. I ask everyone first if somebody will get offended so they can mute me (or well, if they are a lot, I won't start the jokes). Ban me for that if you like but I won't apologize. Most of the late NA players are there because they have nothing better to do and a few jokes to crack them up are as far from evil as a fluffy bunny.
Martin Luther King bullshit
Personally I think you are being a little bitch... Why the hell does it bother you so much??? I mean seriously just talk to shit back or ignore it.... What the fuck is wrong with you where you are so insecure that you act like it is some Martin Luther King bullshit? People called you a name... Get the fuck over it.... Would it bother me if someone made fun of me for being white??? NO... I would just fuck with them to. And if they were obviously better at talking shit than me i would quietly mute them and go on with my game... Don't be a little cry baby pussy because it just makes you look retarded... TOUGHEN UP MOTHERFUCKER!You do not know what is going on. Also, who the fuck are you. Right, another entitled fuckwit. Another dumb sack of shit with your head in the sand, in your twenties and omnipotent.
White people weren't slaves for hundreds of years, they weren't tortured, weren't treated like animals, weren't sold from one WHITE owner to another.
White people weren't slaves for hundreds of years, they weren't tortured, weren't treated like animals, weren't sold from one WHITE owner to another.
IIf you think different, BAN! people like them who ruin my country (Sweden) with mass immigration. And yes the immigrants do commit most of the crimes (atleast in Sweden) so you guys ever wondered why people don't like them? or do you think they are just psychopaths who hates people for no reason? And I'm not racist btw so don't come up with some stupid answer.
Spain is invaded by Romanians and Latin Americans, and they cause most of the problems in the country, as far as crimes go. No one wants them there, lol... They are the trash people, and they get free health care and everything in Spain, which also has been causing Spain to lose a lot of moneys on people who don't deserve it. (Speaking generally; they're not all trash people x.x)