It will be a cold day in hell...

[Joker86]

That's the point I am talking about. Trolling is fine, but if there is something about racism, people get offended.

So then tell me what the point of trolling is, if not offending and enraging? Which, by the way, the the worst you can do over chat.


The guy claiming that black in spanishes are missing the 5% Neandertal DNA, in which point is he different than the guy claiming that a Katana is better than a Longsword?

Both dudes write something which can enrage certain persons and is likely false knowledge. But the one did something evil to somebody by typing this into chat, the other didn't. 

[Adamar]

I think I need to clarify things: I am always talking about racists saying their opinion. I am NOT talking about racists who decide to "do something about it". I think you should be allowed to say "I don't like black people" as much as you are allowed to say "I don't like strawberries with cream." I do not say it is okay to express this animosity in means of mistreatment or even violence. But whenever you have the choice which is basing on your PERSONAL PREFERENCES, like who you want to let in your hobby club, which of your working mates is invited to barbecue on the weekend, and which of the two apprentices you will accept to work in your (!) bakery, you shouldn't only be allowed to do so (as you indeed are), you shouldn't also not be treated like a criminal for doing so. Of course you are free to being disliked, that's the right I am defending, but your way of judging shouldn't be more or less "forbidden". Less popular okay, unacceptable no.

In a tolerant society you can have your personal preference and even be an open racist. What you can't do is let your prejudice affect another person's life in a bad way. Denying someone a job based on their ethnicity or so, is wrong. This is why freely calling people names, or making racist jokes online shouldn't be allowed.

Why is economics different? Your argumentation was that racism needs to be removed as it is a source for violence. I told you another source of violence, so it needs to be removed as well.

The difference is that, in a general opinion, economy is a good thing, with a lot more pros than cons. Removing economy would probably take human evolution in a down slope, while enforcing tolerance does the opposite.

[Rainbow]

I agree with Zisa.  I was on NA1 last night and he was going on and on about how Gays are hated by god and they will burn in hell.  Nobody was even talking to the guy but he kept rambling on.  He also quoted things from Levitacus *spelling* which is some narley old testiment crazy shiz.  He was just trying to get under everybodies skin and no admin was on to kick / mute / ban or whatever.  This guy is a bad news bear.  (Blindpewpew that is)

Yes, I took screen shots of some of the hour long rant.  I will post them later when I get home from work.

[Joker86]

In a tolerant society you can have your personal preference and even be an open racist. What you can't do is let your prejudice affect another person's life in a bad way. Denying someone a job based on their ethnicity or so, is wrong. This is why freely calling people names, or making racist jokes online shouldn't be allowed.

Reading jokes somewhere won't make you automatically mistreat other persons. And if it does, there are a LOT of other influences that should be kept away from you 

And I want to clarify, I think about the job question this way: if you are the human ressources manager of a big company, and you are told to find the best engineer for a certain depratment, you should indeed take the better qualified person, never mind who this is or where he comes from. But of you are the "head" of a company, and be it only a plumber who is looking for a journeyman you want to work with, it's perfectly fine to choose the one who you get along with better, than neccessarily the one with the best grades. And this also is absolutely legal (as far as I know, you are free to employ whoever you think fits best in your team), and I have already been declined somewhere, because people couldn't get warm with me (do you say it this way in English?). And it's totally your decision if this happens because you think he is an asshole or because you don't like certain people.

In short: I agree with the law in this case.

The difference is that, in a general opinion, economy is a good thing, with a lot more pros than cons. Removing economy would probably take human evolution in a down slope, while enforcing tolerence does the opposite.

Now we are arguing realistically, and not idealistically? Well, realistically you will NEVER be able to remove racism. 

[Zisa]

That's the point I am talking about. Trolling is fine, but if there is something about racism, people get offended.

So then tell me what the point of trolling is, if not offending and enraging? Which, by the way, the the worst you can do over chat.


The guy claiming that black in spanishes are missing the 5% Neandertal DNA, in which point is he different than the guy claiming that a Katana is better than a Longsword?

Both dudes write something which can enrage certain persons and is likely false knowledge. But the one did something evil to somebody by typing this into chat, the other didn't. 

Look, you're a smart guy, do not pretend you do not know, or do not see the difference, just to have a discussion.

You missed the entire spew that has been going on for over a week. Just imagine the inanities going on and on and on and you may start to get the picture.

[Rainbow]

Zisa he picked the ONE small part in that dialogue which me might scrape together some claim to trolling vs racism.  Selective reading is quite common.

[Joker86]

Look, you're a smart guy, do not pretend you do not know, or do not see the difference, just to have a discussion.

You missed the entire spew that has been going on for over a week. Just imagine the inanities going on and on and on and you may start to get the picture.

Just to clarify things:

I already wrote above, that most of those things are 99% trolling and 1% racism. And as trolling in general is accepted, I recommend that you ignore the racism trolls, to make their trolling fail. If there is big offense and rage, successful troll is successful.

Now I need to quote myself from an older topic:

I don't think people should get rewarded for being a troll, which is something bad in my eyes. I hate trolling, and I don't think it's funny, not a single bit. It's just retarded and the last refuge for humourless people. Laughing about people who rage to your very own provocations is only slightly better than going around, breaking people's legs and then laughing about how funny it looks how their bone is sticking out of the shin. It's laughing about the other's misfortune (which you aroused yourself) to make yourself feel better. In my eyes this has nothing to do with humour. I am not against making fun on somebody's cost, but it should have real pointes, not the rage itself being the pointe.

(Damn, it's locked, I can't quote with link. It was the "Who's the best troll" contest topic)

I wouldn't mind if trolling in general would be forbidden. But as it's not, I am just wondering why this particular "discipline" of trolling is forbidden, the rest is allowed. Either forbit all of it or nothing, but that bigotry really isn't neccessary.

Zisa he picked the ONE small part in that dialogue which me might scrape together some claim to trolling vs racism.  Selective reading is quite common.

If you want to troll saying "black people can't swim or see at night" is as effective as saying "Dell computers are the best computers." And I am sure in 99% of all cases trolling is the motivation, not racist propaganda.

[[ptx]]

A small sample from 15/05/2012 11:49am to 1:03pm GMT-5

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

ahahaha oh the derp and the herp

[Adamar]

Reading jokes somewhere won't make you automatically mistreat other persons. And if it does, there are a LOT of other influences that should be kept away from you 

It's not about you reading jokes, it's about someone reading a joke that demeens them. So, those jokes shouldn't be allowed.

And I want to clarify, I think about the job question this way: if you are the human ressources manager of a big company, and you are told to find the best engineer for a certain depratment, you should indeed take the better qualified person, never mind who this is or where he comes from. But of you are the "head" of a company, and be it only a plumber who is looking for a journeyman you want to work with, it's perfectly fine to choose the one who you get along with better, than neccessarily the one with the best grades. And this also is absolutely legal (as far as I know, you are free to employ whoever you think fits best in your team), and I have already been declined somewhere, because people couldn't get warm with me (do you say it this way in English?). And it's totally your decision if this happens because you think he is an asshole or because you don't like certain people.

In short: I agree with the law in this case.

Now we are arguing realistically, and not idealistically? Well, realistically you will NEVER be able to remove racism. 

Yes, racism often comes naturaly, but you're not going to grow socially(not be racist) if you avoid mingling with people of an undesired ethnicity.
Much like a person who is afraid of the sea can't lose that fear without first learning how to swim. Instead of indulging your prejudices, you'll be a better member of society if you learn how not to be a racist, for the good of everyone. And this IS possible to achieve.

If there is big offense and rage, successful troll is successful.

People get offended by racism, because its a real issue, with steep consequences. A troll is only successful if you let him troll about controversial stuff.

[Joker86]

Yes, racism often comes naturaly, but you're not going to grow socially(not be racist) if you avoid mingling with people of an undesired ethnicity.
Much like a person who is afraid of the sea can't lose that fear without first learning how to swim. Instead of indulging your prejudices, you'll be a better member of society if you learn how not to be a racist, for the good of everyone. And this IS possible to achieve.

It is, and I guess most people do so. I do have prejudices myself (as you would have guessed, otherwise I wouldn't defend them so stubbornly  ), but still I have good friends who are part of the ethnicities I dislike. They can be my friends because I estimate them as exceptions of my prejudices, which on the other hand get confirmed regularly (=> prejudices by personal experience, I am not brainwashed by media or my parents or the like. Definitely not  ). That's the problem with prejudices and why they sustain. 

I think having prejudices is okay, but it's still better if you try to evaluate every person for himself while having general prejudices, that's at least what I try. I hope this makes me appear a little less as asshole now. 

But actually we are derailing the topic. Or I am. It's about what to do with those racist trolls.

My suggestion: allow it and then ignore it. Trolling needs attention to work. No attention, no trolling. If you happen to have someone who really tries to preach over chat, the missing attention will soon make him stop by himself and look for another place, because preaching needs attention as well. You can see it very well in the case of Kevin_Flynn, who perfectly feeds Sir_Donkey.

[TheFocusedOne]

In a free society we are burdened with the nessissary evil of having to tolerate the... darker... aspects of freedom such as bigotry and ignorance.  If we were to outlaw these things, we wouldn't exactly be a free society, and that shit would suck.

However.

There is a point where free speech: "I don't like black people."  Becomes hate speech: "We should get together and kill all black people."

The line is a blurry one, but incitant hate speech is as much a crime as attempted murder (mens rea, no actus reus) and should be judged accordingly.

[Zisa]

It is, and I guess most people do so. I do have prejudices myself (as you would have guessed, otherwise I wouldn't defend them so stubbornly  ), but still I have good friends who are part of the ethnicities I dislike. They can be my friends because I estimate them as exceptions of my prejudices, which on the other hand get confirmed regularly (=> prejudices by personal experience, I am not brainwashed by media or my parents or the like. Definitely not  ). That's the problem with prejudices and why they sustain. 

I think having prejudices is okay, but it's still better if you try to evaluate every person for himself while having general prejudices, that's at least what I try. I hope this makes me appear a little less as asshole now. 

But actually we are derailing the topic. Or I am. It's about what to do with those racist trolls.

My suggestion: allow it and then ignore it. Trolling needs attention to work. No attention, no trolling. If you happen to have someone who really tries to preach over chat, the missing attention will soon make him stop by himself and look for another place, because preaching needs attention as well. You can see it very well in the case of Kevin_Flynn, who perfectly feeds Sir_equus africanus asinus.

Yes, that child is starving for attention, ignore it and the problem goes away. Lazy minded - Like ignoring your long ass posts make them go away. I even try not reading them sometimes, doesn't work.

Fuckwits only get away with this shite here because it is a mod of a small indie game. They'd be playing something else if some evil pc minded company owned the game, (you know who they are) and thought your 'trolling' would cause more players to leave (and thus profit loss). Go ahead and try it on some big company game and see how acceptable it is, or how valuable your so called right to free speech is. Oh, and Fuck off for stinking up one of the few multiplayer games actually worth playing.

[KaMiKaZe_JoE]

In a free society we are burdened with the nessissary evil of having to tolerate the... darker... aspects of freedom

Ahahaha, I see what you did thar

[SeQuel]

Racism shouldn't be allowed on the server period. Ban them if they do and force them to to write an essay on first offense.

People will either never spew a racist slur ever again or they'll be perm banned forever if they don't care enough to write an essay. If they do care they will write the essay and never do it again.

Racism shouldn't be tolerated under any circumstances online or in real life. No one should be playing a game and see racist slurs being spouted by ignorant people and it's as simple as that. We have a lovely feature called ban that gets rid of people like that.

I'm not sure why this conversation is still going. If the guy was being racist he should be banned end of story.

*I never saw him doing anything, or read any of the screenshots I'm just saying if he was being racist just get rid of him*

[Malaclypse]

I think the cRPG community would exist fine if we were to cull a few of the people who either don't know how to play without "trolling" or are genuinely bigoted and narrow-minded and, what's more, fucking loud-mouths about it as if everyone wants to bear witness to their astounding ignorance and bias. Shit, I'm incredibly prejudice against [CONTENT DELETED], but I keep my skeletons in the closet because I understand that nobody gives a fuck or wants to hear it, and people shouldn't have to constantly mute other players or the entire chat system because of some idiot running their mouth.