cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Chestaclese on May 12, 2012, 09:58:53 pm

Title: balancing cav
Post by: Chestaclese on May 12, 2012, 09:58:53 pm
Up the difficulty on horses so that calavary are boned when their horse dies. That should be the price for being a killing machine. Make them glass cannons that are shit once they lose their horse, like a mage out of mana.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Torben on May 12, 2012, 10:01:50 pm
get the sand out of your vagina and man up.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: polkafranzi on May 12, 2012, 10:04:07 pm
get the sand out of your vagina and man up.
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Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Tzar on May 12, 2012, 10:04:19 pm
Up the difficulty on horses so that calavary are boned when their horse dies.

They all ready are most of them are terrible at melee thus they ride the pony in the first place.

Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on May 12, 2012, 10:09:48 pm
Assuming an infantry and cavalry player of equal skill fight 1v1, if the cav loses his horse he IS boned, since some of his skill investments are worthless. Your suggestion is already in place. Cav isn't OP, their mobility just lets them pick off peasants and bad players before infantry and archers can even see the enemy.

Man is it fun getting 3-5 kills and not dieing on a foggy plains scene. With 1,400g of upkeep and no heirlooms. But hey there are other levels where using a horse is a terrible idea, so I feel that it is fairly  balanced.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on May 12, 2012, 11:21:53 pm
a cav hybrid is far more effective then all the other hybrids. thats probably why there is more cav on servers
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Torben on May 12, 2012, 11:36:59 pm
dont forget that cav is an absolutly different experience.  if you go cav hybrid,  you have two games in one,  thats what makes it interesting for me.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on May 12, 2012, 11:46:08 pm
dont forget that cav is an absolutly different experience.  if you go cav hybrid,  you have two games in one,  thats what makes it interesting for me.

yes you get to play two different games. but the downsides are not as big in this hybrid

archer/melee hybrid isnt too effective. i believe this is kind of obious

melee/thrower has got some good downsides too
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Torben on May 12, 2012, 11:50:20 pm
yes you get to play two different games. but the downsides are not as big in this hybrid

archer/melee hybrid isnt too effective. i believe this is kind of obious

melee/thrower has got some good downsides too

I wasnt talking about any drawbacks,  au contrair actually.  its a treasur to being able to function as two different classes with one character. 
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on May 12, 2012, 11:56:59 pm
I wasnt talking about any drawbacks,  au contrair actually.  its a treasur to being able to function as two different classes with one character.

indeed but what i emant at the beggining was what you said + what i said after  :lol:
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Molly on May 12, 2012, 11:59:25 pm
indeed but what i emant at the beggining was what you said + what i said after  :lol:
You both lost me on the way...  :cry:
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Torben on May 13, 2012, 12:02:08 am
You both lost me on the way...  :cry:

the essence is:  if you stop eating meat,  small vaginas grow all over your body,  until you become one big pussy.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Herkkutatti on May 13, 2012, 12:02:36 am
Make cav repair their horses every time it dies + the normal 4%/+ 4% per min chance for it to broke,but only one repair per round.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on May 13, 2012, 12:02:42 am
the essence is:  if you stop eating meat,  small vaginas grow all over your body,  until you become one big pussy.

that's gross
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Torben on May 13, 2012, 12:08:46 am
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Son Of Odin on May 13, 2012, 12:11:41 am
yes you get to play two different games. but the downsides are not as big in this hybrid

archer/melee hybrid isnt too effective. i believe this is kind of obious

melee/thrower has got some good downsides too

Melee/thrower is almost only hybrid where I would split wpf. Probably the best hybrid compromise out there. My cav/inf build doesn't split wpf but I had to compromise higher athletics to riding and not having a shield... So it's just about adapting and personal preferences... All hybrids make sacrifices..
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on May 13, 2012, 12:20:01 am
people will play the easiest class available thats why it was always the infantry that had the biggest number in servers, good to see people man up and go cav
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on May 13, 2012, 12:22:32 am
Melee/thrower is almost only hybrid where I would split wpf. Probably the best hybrid compromise out there. My cav/inf build doesn't split wpf but I had to compromise higher athletics to riding and not having a shield... So it's just about adapting and personal preferences... All hybrids make sacrifices..

because in a cav hybrid you don't need to split wpf... you can be lancer and polearm on the floor

if you want me to set up a list of drawbacks of both hybrids, i will  8-)
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Herkkutatti on May 13, 2012, 12:27:13 am
people will play the easiest class available thats why it was always the infantry that had the biggest number in servers, good to see people man up and go cav
Infantry is the simpliest class to use, Tho cav and archer are more easy to play and master.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Tzar on May 13, 2012, 12:31:32 am
people will play the easiest class available thats why it was always the infantry that had the biggest number in servers, good to see people man up and go cav

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Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Chestaclese on May 13, 2012, 12:36:56 am
The only reason the cav population isn't completely out of balance is because you don't get enough money when you skip the fun to make a cav player. If they increased the amount of gold you got for skipping the fun I could guarantee there would be a ton more cav players.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on May 13, 2012, 12:46:49 am
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ah gif responce, dont know how to play this game but ill try

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did i win ?
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Tzar on May 13, 2012, 12:54:50 am
ah gif responce, dont know how to play this game but ill try

You fail hard stop trying plz  :?
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on May 13, 2012, 01:07:22 am
You fail hard stop trying plz  :?

you posted a gif and asked to stop failing, yet you gave no responce to what i said

i based my opinion on the fact that most proper melee builds have better overall K:D ratio than melee cav, when it comes to killing aware opponents you think inf have harder time ? how about the performance of both classes on difference maps is it the same for both of them ?

give some arguments you think cav is easier ? is it the ability to kill afk and unaware players due to the faster movement compared to inf ?
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Torben on May 13, 2012, 01:13:37 am
dont see how chagan didnt win that.  ugly dude,  nice ass...  meh.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Leshma on May 13, 2012, 01:21:11 am
chadz fucked up cavalry. How?

1) 50 HA nerfs
2) Nerfing lance angle
3) Changing couch damage
4) Horse leg armor broken
5) Still possible to use xbow on horse
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: polkafranzi on May 13, 2012, 01:24:43 am
chadz fucked up cavalry. How?

1) 50 HA nerfs
2) Nerfing lance angle
3) Changing couch damage
4) Horse leg armor broken
5) Still possible to use xbow on horse

6) Rain
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Lemmy_Winks on May 13, 2012, 05:03:07 am
Chestacelse as a thrower u play a noob novelty class. You probabbly dont even know how to parry or anything like that, so you cant really talk here.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: BADPLAYERold on May 13, 2012, 08:18:18 am
make rouncey/palfrey/steppe/desert 6riding, destriers/coursers/arabians 7 riding, armoured horses 8riding.

add in "weight limits" for each horse so for example if you are riding a courser the total weight of your equipment can't exceed say.. 20? (this is just a random number but you get the idea)

make melee weapons do the same amount of damage to the whole horse as they currently do to the legs and nerf ranged damage to horses by atleast 1/2.

ez.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Chestaclese on May 13, 2012, 10:46:17 am
Chestacelse as a thrower u play a noob novelty class. You probabbly dont even know how to parry or anything like that, so you cant really talk here.

You're in Hospitaller. Shut the fuck up and let the grownups talk.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Lemmy_Winks on May 13, 2012, 08:10:28 pm
make rouncey/palfrey/steppe/desert 6riding, destriers/coursers/arabians 7 riding, armoured horses 8riding.

add in "weight limits" for each horse so for example if you are riding a courser the total weight of your equipment can't exceed say.. 20? (this is just a random number but you get the idea)

make melee weapons do the same amount of damage to the whole horse as they currently do to the legs and nerf ranged damage to horses by atleast 1/2.

ez.

Some interesting ideas, if they were to increase riding which isnt a bad idea i think it should be 1 up from the current levels to help maintain balance between horses. Some horses have higher riding to compensate for them being better than other horses (courser/arabian). The weight limit is interesting aswell, although the vast majority of cavalry do not wear heavy armor, its mostly light or medium. Also heavy horses really need to be made viable again the leg nerf is really killing them.

What REALLY needs to be done here is to make cavalry more challenging than it is. And im referring to lancer cav mainly. The problem is that its too easy to hit someone with a lance on horseback. Hitting someone should be made much more difficult. Its just not hard to stick your lance out and ride straight into someone, couching is difficult as it incorporates more complex mechanics to pull off, but just stabbing someone is easy.

So how do we make that harder. You could make couching easier and make it so that lancer cav always had to couch. Make it similar to couching but changes in terrain dont cancel the couch as alot of maps are very uneven and maybe even reduce couching refresh time and nerf couch damage a little (and lancers usually "couched" in medival times so why not in crpg, the lances are long and heavy enough that it would be hard to use them on horseback the way they are used in crpg). When your couching its harder to control the spear, you cant quickly turn it in another direction and it just doesnt have the control of a regular lance thrust, this is the kind of thing we need to go for.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Ronin on May 13, 2012, 08:31:19 pm
Some interesting ideas, if they were to increase riding which isnt a bad idea i think it should be 1 up from the current levels to help maintain balance between horses. Some horses have higher riding to compensate for them being better than other horses (courser/arabian). The weight limit is interesting aswell, although the vast majority of cavalry do not wear heavy armor, its mostly light or medium. Also heavy horses really need to be made viable again the leg nerf is really killing them.

What REALLY needs to be done here is to make cavalry more challenging than it is. And im referring to lancer cav mainly. The problem is that its too easy to hit someone with a lance on horseback. Hitting someone should be made much more difficult. Its just not hard to stick your lance out and ride straight into someone, couching is difficult as it incorporates more complex mechanics to pull off, but just stabbing someone is easy.

So how do we make that harder. You could make couching easier and make it so that lancer cav always had to couch. Make it similar to couching but changes in terrain dont cancel the couch as alot of maps are very uneven and maybe even reduce couching refresh time and nerf couch damage a little (and lancers usually "couched" in medival times so why not in crpg, the lances are long and heavy enough that it would be hard to use them on horseback the way they are used in crpg). When your couching its harder to control the spear, you cant quickly turn it in another direction and it just doesnt have the control of a regular lance thrust, this is the kind of thing we need to go for.
Well, I think the problem is stabbing is easy and couching is hard. There has to be a medium ground :D

Well as a horse archer myself, I need to remind that you should consider all types of cavalry when trying to rebalance horses. The catagories are:
-Lancer
-Onehander
-Twohander (very same as one hander)
-Horse archer
-Horse Crossbowman
-Horseback thrower (eliminated by natural selection)
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Lemmy_Winks on May 13, 2012, 08:53:54 pm
Were not balancing horses were balanceing cavalry. Horse archers are terrible if anything they need a buff not a nerf, horse xbows are annoying but stil not that efective, no need for a nerf, Two hander and one hander are challenging enough i think, no real need for a nerf, lancer is very easy and OP so it needs a nerf.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: rustyspoon on May 13, 2012, 08:59:42 pm
Cav wouldn't be a big deal if most players weren't dumb.

Usually one team will have most of the cav. The other team then charges out into the middle of a field over and over again and dies.

If you have good awareness and make use of the terrain there's not much cav can do.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: San on May 13, 2012, 11:01:50 pm
Cav requires minimum skill investment from my experience. I am good on foot and can ride top tier horses like the destrier.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on May 13, 2012, 11:21:09 pm
-Horseback thrower (eliminated by natural selection)
FUCK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'M STILL HERE!!!
I NOW CHALLANGE YOU TO A HORSERANGED FIGHT TO PROVE THAT YOU'RE A HORRIBLE PERSON ONCE I IN A SHORT TIME REACH LEVEL 30!!!
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Ronin on May 14, 2012, 12:28:41 am
Were not balancing horses were balanceing cavalry. Horse archers are terrible if anything they need a buff not a nerf, horse xbows are annoying but stil not that efective, no need for a nerf, Two hander and one hander are challenging enough i think, no real need for a nerf, lancer is very easy and OP so it needs a nerf.
Yah, but balancing horses is a way of balancing cavalry considering horses are what make them different. You got it.

FUCK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'M STILL HERE!!!
I NOW CHALLANGE YOU TO A HORSERANGED FIGHT TO PROVE THAT YOU'RE A HORRIBLE PERSON ONCE I IN A SHORT TIME REACH LEVEL 30!!!
My most humble apologizes sir. I accept your challenge. Come to a native duel server and we duel as nord scouts. Ah, we still didn't do that dadao duel as well. Well, maybe we can make an arrangement someday.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Pappus on May 14, 2012, 12:39:49 am
We could approach the couching closer to the real deal, where you can only couch for a really short duration let's say 2 seconds, after that the aiming degrades by a lot (we could mimic that by uncouching).



Although I am not a cav anymore I feel, that cav really is in a bad spot.

I could go 1/10 when I go for aware targets and if I go for unaware & boring I would pull 16/1...

What I really wanted was a fighting chance even against aware targets. 1h guys sidejumping and onehitting you/ your horse, hell even great mauls can pull it off. 2h already feels like a counter to cav.

In my opinion everything other then throwing weapons/spears should be vulnerable to cav. You don't like it? Get a spear protect the flanks, bottlenecks.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Lemmy_Winks on May 14, 2012, 12:59:31 am
Yah, but balancing horses is a way of balancing cavalry considering horses are what make them different. You got it.

Nerfing horses would hurt all cavalry classes when the lancer cav are the only overpowered cav class and the only ones that should be nerfed.

And to Sans point i agree. I basically copied Sans fighting style (high atheletics/armor with steel pick and heavy sheild) and im very effective on foot, maybe even more effective when i was a pure two hand build. In theory a dismounted cav should not be so effective.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Smoothrich on May 14, 2012, 01:01:07 am
Nerfing horses would hurt all cavalry classes when the lancer cav are the only overpowered cav class and the only ones that should be nerfed.

lol
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Ronin on May 14, 2012, 01:05:38 am
Nerfing horses would hurt all cavalry classes when the lancer cav are the only overpowered cav class and the only ones that should be nerfed.

And to Sans point i agree. I basically copied Sans fighting style (high atheletics/armor with steel pick and heavy sheild) and im very effective on foot, maybe even more effective when i was a pure two hand build. In theory a dismounted cav should not be so effective.
Who said nerf? I just used the word "balance" and you referred them as "nerf" for the second time. Dude are you nuts :D
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Lemmy_Winks on May 14, 2012, 01:14:49 am
Who said nerf? I just used the word "balance" and you referred them as "nerf" for the second time. Dude are you nuts :D

At first when i read this i thought you were trolling, but then i read your signature. To someone who knows English very well like myself, it seems that you are implying that we make horses even better given you disagree when i assumed that by balance you meant nerf (I thought this as you have been talking about making cav worse). All you can do is make them worse or better (nerf or buff) so what do you mean? Not to mention in the first post were you quoted my paragraph of text you basically disagreed with what i said and then said the exact same thing i said in my post. Its ok you'll learn to read and understand English someday.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Ronin on May 14, 2012, 09:37:14 am
At first when i read this i thought you were trolling, but then i read your signature. To someone who knows English very well like myself, it seems that you are implying that we make horses even better given you disagree when i assumed that by balance you meant nerf (I thought this as you have been talking about making cav worse). All you can do is make them worse or better (nerf or buff) so what do you mean? Not to mention in the first post were you quoted my paragraph of text you basically disagreed with what i said and then said the exact same thing i said in my post. Its ok you'll learn to read and understand English someday.
I never said I have disagreed with you. I did not say nerf or buff either. You said that cavalry should be more challenging and has to rely on couching more often. As it using a big sized lance for thrusting very frequently would realistically tire the lancer. You also mentioned that the problem is stabbing is easy and couching is more difficult. Then I say, there has to be a middle ground where you can make a mixture of both. No worse or better, just different.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Turboflex on May 14, 2012, 04:31:35 pm
Said it before I'll say it again...

Rider should take heavy fall damage on being dehorsed.

When you are riding around and somebody chops your horse legs out, you got flying and have an 800 lb horse tumbling with you, you are basically dead.

This would add some risk to riding horse, cuz currently it's just a huge power enhancer with basically no risk and very little tradeoff skill/proficiency wise.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: _Tak_ on May 14, 2012, 04:40:19 pm
Said it before I'll say it again...

Rider should take heavy fall damage on being dehorsed.


Make the rider died when dehorse, but buff horse back to where they were before
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Tomas on May 14, 2012, 06:24:11 pm
The only thing "unbalanced" about Cav atm is their numbers.  I've been on EU1 with 30 out of 50 of my team as Cav which is just silly, especially if the other team only has 5 cav which is perfectly possible under the current game mechanics.

Yes, there are many things that could be changed about Cav to make them more realistic.  However I don't believe there is a single change, that can be made on its own to Cav, that would add more balance to the game without further changes being needed as well for that balance.

What they need to do is change is the actual character/server selection process:

1)  First you should pick your server
2)  Then you should select your team (which on official servers balances you to a random team
3)  Finally you should pick your character/gear however now there could be Cav/Ranged limits on servers since if you can't use your cav char you just use another char

A modified version of the Napoleonic Wars character selection would work perfectly for this.  It could list your characters on the left (where you now pick your unit in NW) have the class limits and current numbers at the top on the right and then peoples gear beneath that on the right.  Any gear on a char you can't use can have a red line through it so it is really obvious you can't use it.  That way you can still use a cav char but it will be obvious that the horse won't spawn.

The only drawback is that people may not spawn as they waiting for a cav place to open up but that's their fault not the games fault :D
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Tears of Destiny on May 14, 2012, 06:25:54 pm
^ Deserves OP/New Thread.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Overdriven on May 14, 2012, 07:19:33 pm
Class limits suck. So no.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Smoothrich on May 14, 2012, 09:00:44 pm
I wanna level my main.  Woops, too many characters with HA skill are playing.  Time to delete cRPG and never come back.  - that idea
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on May 14, 2012, 09:32:39 pm
The servers just need better balancing by class and items equipped, as well as a healthy dose of infantry not being retarded and trying to work in groups.

You can't say cavalry is overpowered when it's infantry not doing basic tactics to counter cavalry that is the problem.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Teeth on May 14, 2012, 09:58:13 pm
as well as a healthy dose of infantry not being retarded and trying to work in groups.
How did you figure that is ever going to happen? So you can't say cavalry is overpowered because infantry, without any communication and their highest priority being individual kills, is not working together?
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on May 14, 2012, 10:17:28 pm
People not trying to be rambo and realizing the rock/paper/scissors dynamic.  On foot you are vulnerable to something.  If you don't run around in a group, you could easily die from that something.  Cavalry is mobile enough where they can generally stay away from their weaknesses.  As infantry, if cavalry is your weakness and you're by yourself, you can't just run away to avoid the situation...

Mount and musket (which I think is a retarded game) has a good idea where they run server side "practices" once in a while where they organize into formations and such.  For infantry to ever have any hope of working with tactics and as a team in loose formations, the server would need to start having weekly formation practice for an hour, or the game would need a better system for communication (VOIP within "battalions" comes to mind).  Another way to communicate would be for the server to pop up a big bright message whenever you join a game that says "Hit P to join a battalion, hold F1 to move the flag for that battalion".

I've seen many occasions where infantry grouped up into pretty good formations and the cavalry could only circle around and thumb their asses, or pick off the rambo players who thought they could 1v80 the server.  I still think the "OP" feeling of cavalry has more to do with infantry not realizing their weaknesses than cavalry exploiting their own strengths.

Even mob mentality will sometimes be enough for infantry to control the server if they stay relatively close together.  The team that wins is always the team that has infantry working together better than the other team.  Sometimes if that side has more/better cavalry then it will feel even more one-sided, but I think infantry is always the deciding factor on a map.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Turboflex on May 15, 2012, 03:16:35 pm
 I've seen a lot of infantry heavy clans in formation in battle, AoW, KUTT, my own. It doesn't work. The archers & cav just pick off players, even the ones in formation, until the team is weak enough to force a melee where the other side has an advantage. Also by stacking so many infantry onto one banner/team you're basically guaranteeing the other team has a cav/archer advantage.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on May 15, 2012, 05:58:02 pm
I didn't mean having more infantry than the other team (thus making the other team cav/archer stacked).  I'm saying that when one sides' infantry is better and more organized than the other teams' infantry, the team with the better infantry usually always wins.  At least it seems that way from my experience.   Cavalry and archers are only picking off the stragglers.  Think of it like lions attacking a herd of buffalo.  They are only going after the outliers that are weak, alone, or don't pose much risk to the lions.  They lions aren't running into the middle of the healthy herd unless it's absolutely necessary to their survival.   
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Turboflex on May 15, 2012, 06:16:56 pm
The problem is everyone knows lions are stronger, and everyone wants to be one, and there's no downside. Look at Serge he is a pretty effective infantry, last week he was riding around on a +3 cata in full plate, getting kills like that, eventually he gets dehorsed and then fights on foot like nothing happened. Same for guys like Cyranule, San, etc. Very good infantry who dropped 4-5 easy points into riding and start round mounted, racking up kills lancing people as they move to mid of field. There is no downside at all to doing this, being cav is a huge power enhancer.

Organized infantry units just do not want to put up with this kind of nonsense, they want stand up fights not to sit around being picked off by ranged and playing tag with lancers. Most organized infantry clans are on siege these days besides maybe AoW and Hopsitaller (more of a mixed class clan), where you can actually get legit melee fights. You will find decent groups of KUTT, SoW, HoC and NH on siege most nights now, and I've noticed even top notch infantry from battle drifting in like miley, voester, galv.

Battle is becoming the cav server, and siege the infantry server because cav is so OP that people are tired of the cheesiness of dealing with it. It's too bad cuz battle used to be better for formation fighting and open tactics, but now it's basically impossible you just get overwhelmed by swarms of OP cav, and if you try and form a tight formation against them, range will feast on you.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: BADPLAYERold on May 15, 2012, 06:20:04 pm
make rouncey/palfrey/steppe/desert 6riding, destriers/coursers/arabians 7 riding, armoured horses 8riding.

add in "weight limits" for each horse so for example if you are riding a courser the total weight of your equipment can't exceed say.. 20? (this is just a random number but you get the idea)

make melee weapons do the same amount of damage to the whole horse as they currently do to the legs and nerf ranged damage to horses by atleast 1/2.

ez.

stops cav being able to hybrid as easily (but still makes it very possible, just not with as good melee builds)
makes cav not be able to use heavier armour so they are worse when dismounted
promotes cavalry going after ranged (which is what they should be designed to do IMO)  and makes it harder for bad cav to kill melee players.

solves all problems implement tia.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Mlekce on May 15, 2012, 06:39:48 pm
Make horses more expencive and problems solved.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Turboflex on May 15, 2012, 07:59:08 pm
Make horses more expencive and problems solved.

Not quite...gold as a balance mechanism is pretty weak right now. You can easily have gear loadouts that bleed gold but then sell your loompoint for 700k and still make money each gen.

Badplayer's solution is a decent nerf too. Makes riding a bit more costly statwise than currently is and makes them weaker on foot after dehorsing.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: _Tak_ on May 15, 2012, 09:05:40 pm
Just make the rider die when he get dehorse problem fixed
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Rumblood on May 15, 2012, 09:24:14 pm
The problem is everyone knows lions are stronger, and everyone wants to be one, and there's no downside. Look at Serge he is a pretty effective infantry, last week he was riding around on a +3 cata in full plate, getting kills like that, eventually he gets dehorsed and then fights on foot like nothing happened. Same for guys like Cyranule, San, etc. Very good infantry who dropped 4-5 easy points into riding and start round mounted, racking up kills lancing people as they move to mid of field. There is no downside at all to doing this, being cav is a huge power enhancer.

This is exactly the case.

I wasnt talking about any drawbacks,  au contrair actually.  its a treasur to being able to function as two different classes with one character.

Just as Torben is pointing out and thinking that this is perfectly peachy fine. Sure, no other classes can dedicate themselves to 2 different disciplines other than cavalry, because cavalry is special!

Archers had melee taken away from them when people complained because after you got within range of them, they could "melee just as well". Well no, they had points invested into a lot  more than melee, but that was overlooked in the rush to nerf them.
But hey, that wasn't enough either. Archers were also way too accurate. Nerfed accuracy. They also do too much damage when they do manage to hit someone. Nerf damage. They are able to "machine gun" their arrows. Nerf draw speed. We can't dodge their arrows even when we see them! Nerf arrow speed. They can shoot me from across the map! Increase gravity ie nerf arrow range.

But hey, this isn't one sided at all. Its all my imagination. But those who think that the cavalry hybrid doesn't need the balance stick applied hard and heavy needs it applied hard and heavy upside their thick skulls.

The state of affairs calls to mind an effort by humans to protect a bird species on an island by eradicating the cats there. Once they did, the rabbits flourished and destroyed the local vegetation, endangering the birds even more than the cats did.

Yes, the ranged kitties used to prey on the poor infantry birds, but they also kept the cavalry rabbits in check. Now with the ranged kitties declawed, the cavalry rabbits are running rampant, destroying the native balance and chasing the infantry birds off to siege island where the environment is more hostile to the cavalry rabbits.

You need to reclaw the ranged kitties or put some birth control on the cavalry rabbits.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Piok on May 15, 2012, 09:28:47 pm
Thomek has some fine suggestion in another thread  :twisted:
As lancer I swear that my couser do more damage by bumping somebody then when I poke something with my MWligth lance (not couch) in full speed  :shock:
Many times even lightly armored archer survives it.
But today I was one shoted by a guy on mameluk with MWarabcav sword,  guy has only very small speed but still mange to do brutal damage and no I was not raiding against him i was reloading crossbow in my MWlightkuyak and it was body hit. If I try do this with my lance and couser I will do maybe 1/2 of his dam. at this speed and have serious doubt that even full speed poke from my couser will do same.
Anybody could argue that 1h cav is more difficult but they are much more effective against high agi target and they also do ninjacav tactics similar to lancers on similar horses and velocities.
So I suggest to increase poking speed bonus on lances a bit  maybe lovering couch damage a bit and seriously revise low speed bonus to 1handers on horses because it is tragically high.
And also consider some Thomeks suggestion on cav. some are good.
 

Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on May 15, 2012, 11:58:21 pm
we got your point rumblood and i agree, but no point turning this into an archer rage thread  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Rumblood on May 16, 2012, 12:01:17 am
Its always time for Archer rage  :twisted:
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Son Of Odin on May 16, 2012, 01:29:51 am
To you all cav hybrid haters:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: BADPLAYERold on May 16, 2012, 01:32:46 am
1-5 riding doesn't exactly make you cav... Not even a cav hybrid...

i did 5riding many times using 24/15 build and a cataphract/destier, how does that not make me cav? the riding bonuses are not good enough anymore to make it worth going over the required riding for the horse you are going to use, so for alot of people that means only 15agi 5riding.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Leshma on May 16, 2012, 01:46:36 am
Cav is fine only couching is a little buggy which means that perfectly executed couch can miss and poor couch can hit, which adds to randomness. Also you can cheat with couched lance, a lot more than with a thrust.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Son Of Odin on May 16, 2012, 01:57:02 am
i did 5riding many times using 24/15 build and a cataphract/destier, how does that not make me cav? the riding bonuses are not good enough anymore to make it worth going over the required riding for the horse you are going to use, so for alot of people that means only 15agi 5riding.
See my sneaky edit. I managed to do it before your post tho :D
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Thomek on May 16, 2012, 02:28:27 am
blabla.

Agreed. :)

Just saw Oberyn rack up 5 kills in 10 seconds. Late night EU there are very few noobs, so these were good players..

With the current EU cav pop it's becoming a random mess. Creating more ranged (*myself i.ex built purely for cav self-defence)
and more cav. Infantry get's more and more worthless, the more bumping and ninja lancing going on.

The result of more ranged and cav is a more random experience for everyone. Thus you are no longer so much in control of your own virtual life, which makes the game lame.

I'll happily die to my own lack of skills, or my own pure stupidity, but please don't make hiding in a building with an xbow or a bow the only "smart" choice.

Change cav, and I'm sure less people will feel forced to go ranged.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Leshma on May 16, 2012, 12:38:55 pm
Just saw Oberyn rack up 5 kills in 10 seconds.

That proves nothing. I can kill 5 cavs in 10 seconds. And most of them will be good cav.

People die to cav because of bad awareness and crappy teams. I die to cav too, all the time and it's always due to not checking my behind for too long.

What bothers me the most, is the fact there's a lot of greatsword users and they die to cav when cav attack them frontally. For me, that's unacceptable.

I would really like to see different player movement model because current allows me to outreach lancer cav in 9/10 situations. Also, because of it people fight like circus freaks, dancing and randomly spamming all around the place. Turning should be at least 3 times slower for humans.

This game is ruled by twohanders and polespammers because of it. Most of them can't block 3 hits in a row but they can avoid those hits. If melee fighting was more about blocking and timing and less about "footwork" 80% of twohanders would respec to ranged.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Bulzur on May 16, 2012, 06:31:05 pm
Bad awareness...

You must be joking, even by "²" perpetually around you, you're bound to miss one cav who can easily lance you, even more if it's an heirloomed courser.

Awareness was the key when there's 5-7 cavs in one team. It is not the case anymore.
True, infantry are still powerfull on foot or near walls, and in groups with at least 3 pike users. But we now see the appearance of very effective 24/15 "5 riding" builds. Not much of an investment skill point wise, a decent investment in money, and an awesome result.

Guess what, even Leyla is thinking about switching to cav. It doesn't feel good to kill cav anymore as a longspear user, since even after killing 4, there's still more, and the time you took killing thoses, your team got owned... The possibility to be WHERE you're needed, WHEN you're needed, that's the power of cav.

Fun fact : Leyla dies to :
cav : 60% of time
melee : 30% of time
ranged : 10% of time (killstealing when low hp... as usual)
And that's for a longspear user, dedicated to "repelling" cav.


Other fun fact : 1v1 cav vs longspear user. Who wins ?
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Kafein on May 16, 2012, 06:35:40 pm
That proves nothing. I can kill 5 cavs in 10 seconds. And most of them will be good cav.

People die to cav because of bad awareness and crappy teams. I die to cav too, all the time and it's always due to not checking my behind for too long.

What bothers me the most, is the fact there's a lot of greatsword users and they die to cav when cav attack them frontally. For me, that's unacceptable.

I would really like to see different player movement model because current allows me to outreach lancer cav in 9/10 situations. Also, because of it people fight like circus freaks, dancing and randomly spamming all around the place. Turning should be at least 3 times slower for humans.

This game is ruled by twohanders and polespammers because of it. Most of them can't block 3 hits in a row but they can avoid those hits. If melee fighting was more about blocking and timing and less about "footwork" 80% of twohanders would respec to ranged.

Leshma will you marry me ?
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on May 16, 2012, 06:54:32 pm
To you all cav hybrid haters:
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(click to show/hide)

Not sure why but I lol'ed really hard in my work cubicle for about 30 seconds to that pic



The state of affairs calls to mind an effort by humans to protect a bird species on an island by eradicating the cats there. Once they did, the rabbits flourished and destroyed the local vegetation, endangering the birds even more than the cats did.

That's the only thing I agree with, and it's opposite of your conclusion.  Nerfing things just leads to something else being overpowered.  It's been shown many times by my own experience, that infantry (including ranged units) working in decent groups dictates what happens on the map, not cavalry. 
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: San on May 16, 2012, 07:21:20 pm
Taking damage when you get dehorsed sounds reasonable to me.
Maybe damage could depend upon your current speed when getting dehorsed, punishing those running away a little more since they will be more out of reach when their horses die.

 Most of the time when I get hit, I take 10% damage and my horse takes 30-40%. There are also times where a person gets dehorsed so far away that infantry can't hit him while he's down. Damage when getting dehorsed allows one to actually be rewarded for targeting the horse, instead of poor hoplites, etc. who dehorses a cav player only to get slaughtered once he gets up.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Leshma on May 16, 2012, 07:31:02 pm
(click to show/hide)

Leyla is a very good long spear user, however he's not that hard to kill when he's alone. I've fought Annoyans (Royanss) yesterday and he used perfect tactics (imho) for long spear user when fighting one on one situations. He did the same lolpiking like Chase does (although Chase is better at it) but he also used kick every time you get near him. And if you try to avoid the kick and hit him he would just release his held stab and hit you first. Thing is that you can't kick him before he kicks you, because he has longer weapon and you can't block stab when you're trying to kick. He raped me couple of times using this tactics. I still don't know how to counter it. Maybe it's easier for shielders, but people who don't use shields will die most of the time when facing a long spear user who fights like I explained above.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Rumblood on May 16, 2012, 07:50:46 pm
Not sure why but I lol'ed really hard in my work cubicle for about 30 seconds to that pic

That's the only thing I agree with, and it's opposite of your conclusion.  Nerfing things just leads to something else being overpowered.  It's been shown many times by my own experience, that infantry (including ranged units) working in decent groups dictates what happens on the map, not cavalry.

Opposite of what conclusion? My conclusion is to buff ranged, not nerf cav. In fact, I made a thread that proposed buffing every class in game. People only looked at the buffs in isolation, instead of as an entire system, and that in fact is my conclusion. That the balance in this game has been a series of nerfs in isolation that didn't look at the system as a whole.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: _Tak_ on May 16, 2012, 07:59:30 pm
Opposite of what conclusion? My conclusion is to buff ranged

Foot archer is fine, Crossbow deal load of damage (Bolts chance needs to be the same rate as arrows) , HX is ok.

Buff HA (It's shittest ranged class)
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on May 16, 2012, 09:05:32 pm
Opposite of what conclusion? My conclusion is to buff ranged, not nerf cav. In fact, I made a thread that proposed buffing every class in game. People only looked at the buffs in isolation, instead of as an entire system, and that in fact is my conclusion. That the balance in this game has been a series of nerfs in isolation that didn't look at the system as a whole.

Nevermind...I agree that archery was hit hard and I think it was a shit nerf that led to all sorts of unintended consequences, basically like every single nerf that's been implemented.  I agree also that the nerfs are only looked at in isolation and not the larger affect on other classes (or equipment) it will have.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Lemmy_Winks on May 17, 2012, 02:58:51 am
Make lancing harder its too easy its what makes cav OP

With the skill investment its somewhat complicated as a higher agility build isn't really bad. The only feasible soultion would for it to cost 2 poitns to raise 1 skill in riding, maybe move teh rouncey back up to 5 along with that.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Remy on May 17, 2012, 03:02:50 am
Buff HA (It's shittest ranged class)

Yes, yes, buff HA.  :D
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Thomek on May 17, 2012, 03:12:48 am
Opposite of what conclusion? My conclusion is to buff ranged, not nerf cav. In fact, I made a thread that proposed buffing every class in game. People only looked at the buffs in isolation, instead of as an entire system, and that in fact is my conclusion. That the balance in this game has been a series of nerfs in isolation that didn't look at the system as a whole.

In general I agree. I'm not so against further nerfing, but I see where constant nerfs will be going eventually.

What is lacking the most is a clear vision of how the combat environment should be...
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Zisa on May 17, 2012, 03:50:16 am
In general I agree. I'm not so against further nerfing, but I see where constant nerfs will be going eventually.

What is lacking the most is a clear vision of how the combat environment should be...

Mine is clearest.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: BlindGuy on May 17, 2012, 03:52:15 am
I wasnt talking about any drawbacks,  au contrair actually.  its a treasur to being able to function as two different classes with one character.

Thats funny cause when you fall of your horse your fucked Torben.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Ronin on May 17, 2012, 10:07:54 am
Mine is clearest.
The wise one, please share your greater knowledge and enlighten us the petty peasants and beggars.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Zisa on May 17, 2012, 03:23:27 pm
The wise one, please share your greater knowledge and enlighten us the petty peasants and beggars.
Granted somewhat..

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,31995.0.html

I also am petty, a peasant and beggar.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Rumblood on May 17, 2012, 04:44:00 pm
Granted somewhat..

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,31995.0.html

I also am petty, a peasant and beggar.

I'm petty too. I don't like you now because you took my buff ideas, cut out all the ranged and left the rest. You are just biased against my kind.  :shock:
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Gravoth_iii on May 18, 2012, 03:52:51 am
Make heavy lance 3 slot.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Zisa on May 18, 2012, 04:23:28 am
I'm petty too. I don't like you now because you took my buff ideas, cut out all the ranged and left the rest. You are just biased against my kind.  :shock:
Eh? What? I've never seen your ideas, where are they, maybe we can share. heck if they get implemented you can say there yours. :)
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Rusty_Shacklefjord on May 18, 2012, 06:39:54 am
Are people ITT seriously advocating a nerf for cavalry?

I've played a few generations as cavalry, because I think it's really fun - not because it's overpowered. If anything, I would almost say that it's UNDERpowered. That's right. Nearly every horse dies in 1-2 hits. For example, I can't even count the number of times that I've been killed by throwers recently. They kill my horse with one axe, then me with one more before I can even stand. It's absolutely ridiculous. Right now, any ranged players of any kind are able to deny cavalry access to huge portions of the battlefield. Some horses, like the courser and arabian, are able to mitigate this disadvantage because they're very strong in one area, but most horses are laughably weak. I WANT to play cavalry this generation, but if the past week is any indication I'll definitely have to re-spec to infantry. I'm just too vulnerable as cavalry.

THIS is what's causing people to resort to using shameless tactics like backstabbing and AFK killing. There's just nothing else that they can do. As things are now, there are only a very small number of players that cavalry stand any sort of chance against. Anyone with a weapon whose length is >~110, or with a ranged weapon, can dispatch charging horses with ease. For example, I run around with a longsword and am virtually immune to cavalry. I one-shot their horse with a stab to the face and kill them before they even hit the ground. Again, it's ridiculous. Even most one handed weapons can beat them with a simple side-step and right swing.  In my opinion, every horse from the destrier on up needs at least another 10-20 points of hp/armor. ESPECIALLY the heavy horses. Those suckers should be able to take a real beating - and that's about all they should be able to do. As things are now, that's the only thing that they CAN'T do. Reduce their speed and charge stats and increase their durability significantly so that they can actually be used as intended. They shouldn't be running all over like the light horses or knocking people down like some kind of big stupid bowling ball, they should be trotting or walking through the thick of battle, alongside the footmen. That's their niche. A little faster than infantry, but less agile and unable to block attacks to the horse.

So, in summation, at the moment:
- cavalry are weak against ranged AND infantry
- cavalry are strong against unaware and AFK players
- heavier horses need more durability
- heavier horses need less speed and much less charge

P.S. nerf ranged

Edit: Also, I like how heavy horses' legs are vulnerable and I think that it would be a great way to provide a weak point for new, tougher heavy horses - although I think that the hitbox for legs is just a little too big right now.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Chestaclese on May 18, 2012, 06:57:47 am
Are people ITT seriously advocating a nerf for cavalry?

I've played a few generations as cavalry, because I think it's really fun - not because it's overpowered. If anything, I would almost say that it's UNDERpowered. That's right. Nearly every horse dies in 1-2 hits. For example, I can't even count the number of times that I've been killed by throwers recently. They kill my horse with one axe, then me with one more before I can even stand. It's absolutely ridiculous. Right now, any ranged players of any kind are able to deny cavalry access to huge portions of the battlefield. Some horses, like the courser and arabian, are able to mitigate this disadvantage because they're very strong in one area, but most horses are laughably weak. I WANT to play cavalry this generation, but if the past week is any indication I'll definitely have to re-spec to infantry. I'm just too vulnerable as cavalry.

THIS is what's causing people to resort to using shameless tactics like backstabbing and AFK killing. There's just nothing else that they can do. As things are now, there are only a very small number of players that cavalry stand any sort of chance against. Anyone with a weapon whose length is >~110, or with a ranged weapon, can dispatch charging horses with ease. For example, I run around with a longsword and am virtually immune to cavalry. I one-shot their horse with a stab to the face and kill them before they even hit the ground. Again, it's ridiculous. Even most one handed weapons can beat them with a simple side-step and right swing.  In my opinion, every horse from the destrier on up needs at least another 10-20 points of hp/armor. ESPECIALLY the heavy horses. Those suckers should be able to take a real beating - and that's about all they should be able to do. As things are now, that's the only thing that they CAN'T do. Reduce their speed and charge stats and increase their durability significantly so that they can actually be used as intended. They shouldn't be running all over like the light horses or knocking people down like some kind of big stupid bowling ball, they should be trotting or walking through the thick of battle, alongside the footmen. That's their niche. A little faster than infantry, but less agile and unable to block attacks to the horse.

So, in summation, at the moment:
- cavalry are weak against ranged AND infantry
- cavalry are strong against unaware and AFK players
- heavier horses need more durability
- heavier horses need less speed and much less charge

P.S. nerf ranged

Fuck you.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Herkkutatti on May 18, 2012, 07:03:09 am
nerf ranged
This
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Elmetiacos on May 18, 2012, 12:49:42 pm
Are people ITT seriously advocating a nerf for cavalry?

I've played a few generations as cavalry, because I think it's really fun - not because it's overpowered. If anything, I would almost say that it's UNDERpowered. That's right. Nearly every horse dies in 1-2 hits. For example, I can't even count the number of times that I've been killed by throwers recently. They kill my horse with one axe, then me with one more before I can even stand. It's absolutely ridiculous. Right now, any ranged players of any kind are able to deny cavalry access to huge portions of the battlefield. Some horses, like the courser and arabian, are able to mitigate this disadvantage because they're very strong in one area, but most horses are laughably weak. I WANT to play cavalry this generation, but if the past week is any indication I'll definitely have to re-spec to infantry. I'm just too vulnerable as cavalry.
I agree with all this, I've recently given up my cavalry alt, Sir_TenleyKnott, because he was so ineffective he was no longer any more fun. Get anywhere near the enemy infantry and you are hit with a hail of arrows from the archers and bolts from the growing number of hybrid crossbow infantry. If there's a thrower in there too, you are toast. And it seems like half of any team now is equipped with pikes, thanks to the glitch which makes them super-efficient melee weapons.
Quote
THIS is what's causing people to resort to using shameless tactics like backstabbing and AFK killing. There's just nothing else that they can do. As things are now, there are only a very small number of players that cavalry stand any sort of chance against. Anyone with a weapon whose length is >~110, or with a ranged weapon, can dispatch charging horses with ease. For example, I run around with a longsword and am virtually immune to cavalry. I one-shot their horse with a stab to the face and kill them before they even hit the ground. Again, it's ridiculous. Even most one handed weapons can beat them with a simple side-step and right swing.  In my opinion, every horse from the destrier on up needs at least another 10-20 points of hp/armor. ESPECIALLY the heavy horses.
Everyone lolstabs cavalry horses in the head now. Last night Hot_Chick killed 2 in a row with a katana - that's only length 95 and 17 damage. Any melee attack kills unarmoured horses; I gave up Sir_TenleyKnott mainly because I was getting most of my kills when I lost my horse in a cav duel and my opponents tried to finish me off!

There are effective cavalry out there, of course, but they are mostly people with a money sink who don't have to worry about upkeep and can ride about on Cataphract Horses or Chargers and/or wear Transitional or Plate. Playing as a light lancer is very difficult now.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Casimir on May 18, 2012, 01:08:49 pm
Ther is the disadvantage of whn your horse dies you can easily be hit twice on the ground while completly unable to defend yourself.  Also your faily exposed atop horses and become an easy and obvious targetr for any well positoned range players.

Cavalry is powerful, but its not without weaknesses as some people ehre would make out.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Gurnisson on May 18, 2012, 01:28:48 pm
I've played a few generations as cavalry, because I think it's really fun - not because it's overpowered. If anything, I would almost say that it's UNDERpowered.

That would explain my K/D as level 30 cav being 5.8 without spawnraping nor hunting peasants and going several maps in a row without dying once. :rolleyes: If you have decent awareness and good decision making you can often tear down half of the enemy team as cav. As infantry it's way harder since you can't really flee while outnumbered or flee from archers targeting you, and it's very rare that you can one-hit people that's not paying attention for a second or two. Cav is not easy for players that are bad decision makers since the speed bonus is a double-edged sword and one mistake might be the end of your round. However, cavalry is by far the easiest class to do well with if you play smart. You're basically untouchable if you don't do any mistakes. :wink:

That's right. Nearly every horse dies in 1-2 hits. For example, I can't even count the number of times that I've been killed by throwers recently. They kill my horse with one axe, then me with one more before I can even stand. It's absolutely ridiculous. Right now, any ranged players of any kind are able to deny cavalry access to huge portions of the battlefield. Some horses, like the courser and arabian, are able to mitigate this disadvantage because they're very strong in one area, but most horses are laughably weak. I WANT to play cavalry this generation, but if the past week is any indication I'll definitely have to re-spec to infantry. I'm just too vulnerable as cavalry.

Ranged counters cav, so you either try to stay away from the ones spotting you or you flank around and rape their range squad in the back. If you charge a thrower or an archer head on, you deserve to die.

THIS is what's causing people to resort to using shameless tactics like backstabbing and AFK killing. There's just nothing else that they can do. As things are now, there are only a very small number of players that cavalry stand any sort of chance against. Anyone with a weapon whose length is >~110, or with a ranged weapon, can dispatch charging horses with ease. For example, I run around with a longsword and am virtually immune to cavalry. I one-shot their horse with a stab to the face and kill them before they even hit the ground. Again, it's ridiculous. Even most one handed weapons can beat them with a simple side-step and right swing.  In my opinion, every horse from the destrier on up needs at least another 10-20 points of hp/armor. ESPECIALLY the heavy horses. Those suckers should be able to take a real beating - and that's about all they should be able to do. As things are now, that's the only thing that they CAN'T do. Reduce their speed and charge stats and increase their durability significantly so that they can actually be used as intended. They shouldn't be running all over like the light horses or knocking people down like some kind of big stupid bowling ball, they should be trotting or walking through the thick of battle, alongside the footmen. That's their niche. A little faster than infantry, but less agile and unable to block attacks to the horse.

Longsword and immune to cavalry? Those cav have to be really bad then. Anyone with a weapon shorter than a long awlpike is pretty easy to take down with a heavy lance. Hell, you can even reliably couch people using regular awlpikes. Just pretend that you're couching head on and then turn your horse to the left when you're pretty close. Easily dodgeable for the awlpiker but if he tries to out-thrust you, he will be couched down.

- cavalry are weak against ranged AND infantry

Nope, they're not. They're strong against infantry and while they counter archers they're also countered by them.

- cavalry are strong against unaware and AFK players

Well, true, but I don't really see any class not being strong against AFK players. :lol:

- heavier horses need more durability

Well, the leg damage is quite retarded but being hit by a melee weapon is your own fault. Heavy horses are still great since you take a lot more arrows before going down.

- heavier horses need less speed and much less charge

While I agree that the bump damage should be nerfed (or making the cavalry having to be at top speed to bump someone down), I don't agree that heavy horses should be even slower than what they are.

P.S. nerf ranged

No
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on May 18, 2012, 04:34:07 pm
Give me an awl pike and try to couch me, I won't dodge. 
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Turboflex on May 18, 2012, 04:50:34 pm
That would explain my K/D as level 30 cav being 5.8 without spawnraping nor hunting peasants and going several maps in a row without dying once. :rolleyes: If you have decent awareness and good decision making you can often tear down half of the enemy team as cav. As infantry it's way harder since you can't really flee while outnumbered or flee from archers targeting you, and it's very rare that you can one-hit people that's not paying attention for a second or two. Cav is not easy for players that are bad decision makers since the speed bonus is a double-edged sword and one mistake might be the end of your round. However, cavalry is by far the easiest class to do well with if you play smart. You're basically untouchable if you don't do any mistakes. :wink:

This is the bottom line. If cav is so weak as some defenders here advocate, why do good players who go cav always magnify their kill stats compared to being infantry?? It's easy as fuck to get tonnes kills as cav if you play it smart.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Casimir on May 18, 2012, 04:54:42 pm
Balancing cav purely in the capabilities of lancers is the same as balancing footman on the ability of just polearm users.  Widen your vision and accept that lancers, although representing a majority of cav, perform differently to other cavalry.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on May 18, 2012, 04:59:58 pm
gurnisson sums it up pretty well.
But i really have to emphasize on some points.

If your horse gets headshot by a heavy throwing axe you really diserved it. the thing drops fast, has slow missile speed so high anticipation is needed and it really doesnt travel far. you stay just 15 meters away and if he's still throwing his axe he's wasting his ammo (and his build, the investment you have to do in order to throw weapons should make throwers realise that they shouldnt spam stupidly)

Doing a head on pass on a thrower is deadly for both, you seem to consider this is only dangerous for cavalry!
-If you miss your throw you get lanced and/or suffer massive bump damage.(deadly 90% of the time for the thrower)
-you hit the horse but it doesnt die,  see above
-you kill the horse, two possibilities :
                                                          - he lanced you at the same time, you die(yes already happened many times, you can ask trikipuma about that)
                                                          - cav get up for a decent fight because his investment in hybriding is good (with different endings , cav gets bumrape, or cav wins whatever...)
-You hit the rider!!! he doesnt die, but your safe he didnt lance you! oh yea you suffer massive bump damage...rider gets his mistake forgivens and bumrapes more unaware people
-you kill the rider huzzah...*BUMP* (and die  :lol: )

But

Cav doesnt need a nerf...

Leg damage should be reverted, it's to high, making heavy horses near to useless. People don't seem to understand that the more you nerf them, the more you force them into a backstabbing role, creating even more rage and cav balance threads.

I believe, that the cav population is a hybrid problem. Cav is the easiest hybrid to have and the most diverse. You can or play on foot, or zoom about on horseback!!! With the drawback of spending 5 skill in riding and for what you get that's pretty investment worthy. You don't suffer from distributing wpf in different class, you dont have armor restrirctions, and be pretty much as effective in those two classes(foot and cav) as any guy who's invested in one playstyle!

so i'd beleive you should limit acces to cav BUT on the other hand, make real cav players, and by that i talk about cav with 7, 8 riding skill, really worthwile, give it some bonuses

Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Elmetiacos on May 18, 2012, 05:41:29 pm
That would explain my K/D as level 30 cav being 5.8 without spawnraping nor hunting peasants and going several maps in a row without dying once. :rolleyes:
What weapon, armour and horse are you using? What's the upkeep on all that?
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Smoothrich on May 18, 2012, 06:19:49 pm
Cav is really fucking easy and really fucking OP.

If you say cav is too hard to do well in you are honestly the worst player at the easiest class in the game.

Shame on you, and for god's sake stop posting in the balance forum.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Son Of Odin on May 18, 2012, 06:34:17 pm
get the sand out of your vagina and man up.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Rusty_Shacklefjord on May 18, 2012, 08:42:28 pm
wordswordswords poorly sectioned quotes words words

I'm not going to nit pick and deconstruct your entire post into little segments, especially since most of it is just your silly opinions, but there are a few key points I'd like to contest:

Using a top player as an example of how well a class is balanced is just stupid.

Your hypothetical is completely irrelevant to a realistic discussion of balance. A perfect player that never makes any mistakes could do really well as cavalry - but at the same time, they would do well with ANY class. Rohypnol switching to a horse-crossbowman is a great example of this. It's a class that's never been considered to be that effective, and still isn't for the vast majority of players. However, because he's a skilled player he was able to make it work. Likewise, your personal success as cavalry is probably more a result of your own level of skill than of the inherent effectiveness of the class.

As things are now, a few top players are able to do very well as cavalry, and everyone else is helpless. Highly skilled players can kill dozens of enemies with ease, to the point that it's almost not even fun to do any more. Meanwhile, average players are 1hko'd over and over and have nothing to show for it but a huge repair bill. Normally I'd be in favor of this kind of skill gap, but in this instance I think that it's too extreme. It's just not a good way to make the game fun. By increasing durability, you widen the margin of error for cavalry and allow newer players do to a little better. By decreasing speed/charge/maneuver, you make older players less overwhelmingly powerful. Skilled cavalry players would still be able to beat out unskilled players, but not by such a ridiculously wide margin.

I think that people's frustrations with cavalry stem primarily from this good player vs bad player dichotomy. If you want to make people happy, the class has to be balanced for both.

Also, as a bit of an aside, making the changes that I'm advocating here would also make it so that the riding skill would actually be valuable outside of fulfilling difficulty requirements. People could still have handling comparable to what we have now, but they would actually have to invest some points beyond the bare minimum. It would open up a subset of pure cavalry vs all of the hybrid cavalry that we have now.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Leshma on May 18, 2012, 09:38:58 pm
Killed some schmucks today, every single one was proper lance stab in the face on aware opponent. Still miss wide lance angle.

Bring back old lance angle and nerf couch damage four times. Also change req for Arabian to 6 and buff Coursers maneuver by two points (it's the most beautiful horse in crpg, it deserves to be the best).

That way only good cav will kill something, noobs will die in cav duels in first minutes. Which will lead to less cav but good ones will be feared and most people will try to avoid them. After that you can make long spear and pike 2 slot again, but make sure to nerf lolpiking (feinting, jumping, lolspinstab and most importantly fix pikes going through walls and teammates).
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Leshma on May 18, 2012, 09:45:25 pm
Forgot one thing. To avoid hatred of couch lovers I have one more change.

Buff Great Lance and other couch only lances to 60-80 damage, so that only those lances one hit when couched.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Son Of Odin on May 18, 2012, 10:23:12 pm
Leshma I always thought you hated cavalry :P. I would like to see the old lance angle coming back. Maybe nerf the couch damage small bit in exchange, not too much tho ^^
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Leshma on May 18, 2012, 11:02:45 pm
I liked cavalry but I don't like what cavalry has become.

And no, you can't have wide lance angle and one hit couch with heavy lance.

I would also buff lance speed a bit, heavy lance by 5%, lance by 15% and Light Lance by 20%. But only when used on horse, on foot current values are more then enough.

Couching is a cool thing but its poorly implemented in this game. It's oversimplified.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Son Of Odin on May 18, 2012, 11:15:31 pm
Well I don't use couching too often myself... The hits connect weirdly and it took quite long time for me to learn it. Still I find it more comfortable to use regular lance attack in most situations.

However I disagree with Arabian Warhorse part. I think the requirement should stay at 7 riding. I like it the way it is now. If you invest 7 points to riding you should be able to get your hands on more manouverable horse than the average joe. Arabian riders with ps 7 all over the place if the req is lowered to 6, and I don't see that desirable...
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Kafein on May 19, 2012, 03:27:24 am
Well I don't use couching too often myself... The hits connect weirdly and it took quite long time for me to learn it. Still I find it more comfortable to use regular lance attack in most situations.

This. Couched lances do hit people when they should not in some cases, but if it's a rainy day and you ate tomatoes yesterday morning you will inexplicably miss and see the virtual lance virtually phasing through your virtual enemies without doing any virtual damage.

Btw gurnisson, if I only count my good rounds I probably reach skyhigh k/d too. But as a cav you also have to fight on maps which are impossible to play with your horses, or against players that aren't complete noobs or have eyes and ears, or brains. Killing 50 peasants is easy, killing anyone in a group of decent 2h is only possible if you bore them to death.


Cav is the weakest class for 1v1 combat and that is final. It is autofucked by half the playerbase (poles and 2h that know how to use their wasd cluster), autofucked by most of the active archers and all throwers and of course you don't really stand a chance against HA or HX that aim for the horse. The only guys you have fair chances against in a duel are other melee cavs or 1h in wheelchairs (wearing heavy armor + str build)
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: San on May 19, 2012, 04:08:01 am
I dunno.. I find it pretty simple to go against any melee that doesn't have greatsword length reach or above.. From what I've experienced, you need to be vastly more skilled/experienced with an agi build to dehorse a decent cav with a shorter weapon. I use the regular lance, too.

Cav is only weak in 1v1 against obvious counters like the >160 length spears and some of the 2hs if your horse is at full health. When I am on a destrier, I am not afraid of any single archer or thrower, especially since I have a shield anyways. I make sure speed bonus isn't in effect when my horse gets hit, so it only takes ~20% damage if archer, 30-40% if thrower. I only worry against 3 or more archers, or 1 very skilled archer and a helper ranged user. If I guess right for which way they dodge, it's usually an instant kill with my 8PS and instant acceleration+speed bonus lance stab within 4 meters (still move a little slow, but fast enough to get some speed bonus).

 Even so, cav can't ask to be great at everything when they're already so great at what they do.  Want to be better at 1v1? Something needs to be done about being the best backstabbers in the game, then, and they're already decent at 1v1.

Cav is very easy to use and extremely easy to hybrid with only 1-2 levels of devotion. Even cav who are not good against other cav can avoid them if they play smart. Just fight near your enemy's spawn and once the two largest blobs clash, help pick off those slightly isolated from the main group(usually ranged)/bump at the main group if possible. You can play on your non-gimped melee build on "bad" cav maps (most of them are still useful for ~2-3 horses on a team), and do exceedingly well on cav maps which appear quite frequently.

I also rarely feel punished much when I get dehorsed. In ~50 body armor, 1 person can probably get me to half health or something if I started off full health if he's lucky. I think cav should be punished much more when stopped and/or when dehorsed. This will allow weak support units like hoplite and agi pike users to actually counter a horse by themselves more efficiently. If your horse gets stopped, you shouldn't be able to move, attack, or get off your horse for a tiny bit longer. There were times where I was stopped and simply stabbed the guy in the middle of his attack which killed him or let me get away, and most other times I can get off my horse and kill the guys attacking it.


I also think the huge leg damage should go away, but make the head more vulnerable, so teamhits don't kill your horse as often, but horses will still maintain a proper weakness.


You should also lose a proportionate amount of health when you get dehorsed comparable to your speed upon your horse's death. If you were stopped, negligible damage (From 0 to maybe 1/10 or 1/8), but if you were going full speed, ~20-40%. Just enough to get you wounded if there's no melee around to hit you when you're down, or if you were dehorsed by a guy already preoccupied with other players. Damage may also be mitigated by leg armor, that would be pretty cool too.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Gurnisson on May 19, 2012, 04:19:11 am
What weapon, armour and horse are you using? What's the upkeep on all that?

Large Warhorse, Mail Shirt, Mail Mittens, Splinted Leather Greaves over Mail, Nordic Fighter Helmet, Heavy Lance, Elite Cavalry Shield, Quarter Staff. If you think that's too expensive then I can inform you that I had a lancer alt before making my main one. It was a terrible 18/15 build with horse archery, power throw and other shit skills and I used a rouncey or a destrier with light leather or light mail. I could still easily top the scoreboard. Why? Well, most of the time when I end a round alive as cav I have most, if not all of my health left, and that makes heavy gear often pretty useless. If you don't do risks you can still kill tons and assist your teammates along the way whatever shit gear you use (except maybe the sumpter, I can accept bad cavalry performances from a sumpter horse :))

(click to show/hide)

Are you really stating that bad players can do well with other classes but not as cav? It's as cavalry the bad players really have a chance to make a difference if they have some basic awareness and decision making, even if they're bad at so many other sides of warband's combat. You have a class that is able to pick his every fight, able to one-hit kill with an unblockable attack, able to outreach most weapons in the game and flee from uncomfortable situations at any give time, and that's not good enough to weigh up for its con, the repair bill? You could also call being one-hit a lot of the time a con, but speed-bonus is a double-edged sword, both a pro and a con depending on how you use it. That you do bad as cav because you're playing reckless should not be decisive for the balance. I've never stated that cavalry is overpowered, it isn't, but stating that it's the hardest class for bad players to play is just bullshit, sorry. I've seen players being hopeless on foot but still being a huge danger on horseback because of the nature of the cavalry class and what one can make out of its pros.

Btw gurnisson, if I only count my good rounds I probably reach skyhigh k/d too. But as a cav you also have to fight on maps which are impossible to play with your horses, or against players that aren't complete noobs or have eyes and ears, or brains. Killing 50 peasants is easy, killing anyone in a group of decent 2h is only possible if you bore them to death.

Well, I've counted all rounds since reaching level 30, and yes, that includes the bad ones. I only drop my horse in a few maps that makes it almost impossible to be at horseback, where I rather go with a pike. I've killed tons of good players, even the best ones are not aware at any given time and as a lancer, you should be there in a flash if you see behavior that makes you think that his focus is elsewhere. I would never hunt a peasant, that's just wrong and just wasting time. As a cavalry player being busy with low priority target to boost your kills is a joke of a decision, when you're a game changer while hunting high priority targets. As for peasants, I stab the ones that move in the path I'm travelling, that's it.

In a group of decent 2Hs? Wait till they engage someone and gets too busy looking out for their backs, or you can use maneuver and timing to outreach them with your heavy lance (if you don't use a heavy one, then it gets harder, I agree :P)

Cav is the weakest class for 1v1 combat and that is final. It is autofucked by half the playerbase (poles and 2h that know how to use their wasd cluster), autofucked by most of the active archers and all throwers and of course you don't really stand a chance against HA or HX that aim for the horse. The only guys you have fair chances against in a duel are other melee cavs or 1h in wheelchairs (wearing heavy armor + str build)

No, it's not final. 1H cav and 2H cav is pretty bad for this, I can certainly agree on that part. Shielders are pretty easy prey for those to classes though with the nature of the bump-slash, but going for a 2H or a polearmer with 1H cav or 2H cav is certainly dangerous, and way too risky for my playstyle (at least most of the time :P)

As for being a lancer, I keep away from people with long awlpike or longer weapons (though I wouldn't attack a 2H or another polearmer head on in the start of a EU1 round, that's too risky, it's more of an end-game playstyle but it's not that hard..) I would say you're at an advantage against a shielder and definitely against crossbowmen, but if you're going by people of the same skill-level I guess you can say that you're at a disadvantage vs. greatsword users and the users of long polearms.


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Elmetiacos on May 19, 2012, 01:23:29 pm
Large Warhorse, Mail Shirt, Mail Mittens, Splinted Leather Greaves over Mail, Nordic Fighter Helmet, Heavy Lance, Elite Cavalry Shield, Quarter Staff. If you think that's too expensive then I can inform you that I had a lancer alt before making my main one. It was a terrible 18/15 build with horse archery, power throw and other shit skills and I used a rouncey or a destrier with light leather or light mail. I could still easily top the scoreboard.
At nearly 60,000, that's loss making levels of equipment which you can only afford if you have a money sink or are willing to alternate with periods of playing as a peasant on the siege servers so it won't spoil your K:D. I invite you to try a few days on an rouncey or a courser instead of your usual horse.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Gurnisson on May 19, 2012, 01:29:29 pm
Did you even read what I wrote? I said that i've used rouncey with only light leather as armour (and an awful build) but that the nature of the cav class still makes it easy. Also, I don't lose money with my standard gear, I make money
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on May 20, 2012, 07:31:50 am
Everyone buy a Triden/Pitchfork/Scythe/bamboo spear. See how many cav appear in the first round. If there are many, bring pointy thing. Doesn't matter what your class is, so long as you have 2 slots available, bring it. When you get to the fight dump it and fight, if your not in the fight keep pointing it at the bad men on horses.

Then there will be plenty of things to pick up and scare the bad men on horses with and it will stop the initial whoring because the team will be a porcupine.

--------------

Good build + rouncey makes money. I was using a side sword with round cav shield, White Tunic over Mail, mail gauntlets and a gotland helmet and I was making plenty of cash. You just need 6-7 riding to make it a fairly good horse.

--------------

Oh yeah, make great lance one slot so I can use a morning star as well and make it break after 3 hits.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Oberyn on May 20, 2012, 07:46:36 am
Don't get what's so weird about the couch. To really get a feel for it just use first person, did that for some time before internalizing how to aim it exactly.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Leshma on May 20, 2012, 04:59:16 pm
Everyone buy a Triden/Pitchfork/Scythe/bamboo spear.

Sorry but with 1 wpf in polearms I'm not efficient with those weapons like I'm with my German GS.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Mlekce on May 20, 2012, 05:13:01 pm
Cavalery is too easy,it need to be much harder. Everyone now rides a horse,and it is pretty easy to make hybrid that is good on foot and good on horse.
Make
Strength: 18
Agility: 18
Skills to attributes: 2
Ironflesh: 6
Power Strike: 6
Athletics: 6
Riding: 6
Weapon Master: 5
Polearm: 148

and woila you have fucking hybrid that owns everything. Good on horse,good on foot,fast hitting. Do you need anything else? No.
Riding should require more then 3 agility points,maybie 4  to stop this builds. I was lance cav and it is too easy.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: Zisa on May 20, 2012, 09:14:26 pm
Everyone buy a Triden/Pitchfork/Scythe/bamboo spear. See how many cav appear in the first round. If there are many, bring pointy thing. Doesn't matter what your class is, so long as you have 2 slots available, bring it. When you get to the fight dump it and fight, if your not in the fight keep pointing it at the bad men on horses.

Then there will be plenty of things to pick up and scare the bad men on horses with and it will stop the initial whoring because the team will be a porcupine.

--------------

Good build + rouncey makes money. I was using a side sword with round cav shield, White Tunic over Mail, mail gauntlets and a gotland helmet and I was making plenty of cash. You just need 6-7 riding to make it a fairly good horse.

--------------

Oh yeah, make great lance one slot so I can use a morning star as well and make it break after 3 hits.
This does not appear to add variety.
Title: Re: balancing cav
Post by: ArchonAlarion on May 20, 2012, 09:22:06 pm
make rouncey/palfrey/steppe/desert 6riding, destriers/coursers/arabians 7 riding, armoured horses 8riding.

add in "weight limits" for each horse so for example if you are riding a courser the total weight of your equipment can't exceed say.. 20? (this is just a random number but you get the idea)

make melee weapons do the same amount of damage to the whole horse as they currently do to the legs and nerf ranged damage to horses by atleast 1/2.

ez.

That's freaking retarded. 8 riding for armored horses? Goodbye knights on chargers, hello pansy spam ninja's on chargers. You might as well just get rid of barded horses at that point.