balancing cav

[Piok]

Thomek has some fine suggestion in another thread 
As lancer I swear that my couser do more damage by bumping somebody then when I poke something with my MWligth lance (not couch) in full speed 
Many times even lightly armored archer survives it.
But today I was one shoted by a guy on mameluk with MWarabcav sword,  guy has only very small speed but still mange to do brutal damage and no I was not raiding against him i was reloading crossbow in my MWlightkuyak and it was body hit. If I try do this with my lance and couser I will do maybe 1/2 of his dam. at this speed and have serious doubt that even full speed poke from my couser will do same.
Anybody could argue that 1h cav is more difficult but they are much more effective against high agi target and they also do ninjacav tactics similar to lancers on similar horses and velocities.
So I suggest to increase poking speed bonus on lances a bit  maybe lovering couch damage a bit and seriously revise low speed bonus to 1handers on horses because it is tragically high.
And also consider some Thomeks suggestion on cav. some are good.
 

[Lactose_the_intolerant]

we got your point rumblood and i agree, but no point turning this into an archer rage thread 

[Rumblood]

Its always time for Archer rage 

[Son Of Odin]

To you all cav hybrid haters:
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1-4 (well not even 5 if you are not knowing your stuff) riding doesn't exactly make you cav... Not even a cav hybrid...

[BADPLAYERold]

1-5 riding doesn't exactly make you cav... Not even a cav hybrid...

i did 5riding many times using 24/15 build and a cataphract/destier, how does that not make me cav? the riding bonuses are not good enough anymore to make it worth going over the required riding for the horse you are going to use, so for alot of people that means only 15agi 5riding.

[Leshma]

Cav is fine only couching is a little buggy which means that perfectly executed couch can miss and poor couch can hit, which adds to randomness. Also you can cheat with couched lance, a lot more than with a thrust.

[Son Of Odin]

i did 5riding many times using 24/15 build and a cataphract/destier, how does that not make me cav? the riding bonuses are not good enough anymore to make it worth going over the required riding for the horse you are going to use, so for alot of people that means only 15agi 5riding.

See my sneaky edit. I managed to do it before your post tho

[Thomek]

blabla.

Agreed.

Just saw Oberyn rack up 5 kills in 10 seconds. Late night EU there are very few noobs, so these were good players..

With the current EU cav pop it's becoming a random mess. Creating more ranged (*myself i.ex built purely for cav self-defence)
and more cav. Infantry get's more and more worthless, the more bumping and ninja lancing going on.

The result of more ranged and cav is a more random experience for everyone. Thus you are no longer so much in control of your own virtual life, which makes the game lame.

I'll happily die to my own lack of skills, or my own pure stupidity, but please don't make hiding in a building with an xbow or a bow the only "smart" choice.

Change cav, and I'm sure less people will feel forced to go ranged.

[Leshma]

Just saw Oberyn rack up 5 kills in 10 seconds.

That proves nothing. I can kill 5 cavs in 10 seconds. And most of them will be good cav.

People die to cav because of bad awareness and crappy teams. I die to cav too, all the time and it's always due to not checking my behind for too long.

What bothers me the most, is the fact there's a lot of greatsword users and they die to cav when cav attack them frontally. For me, that's unacceptable.

I would really like to see different player movement model because current allows me to outreach lancer cav in 9/10 situations. Also, because of it people fight like circus freaks, dancing and randomly spamming all around the place. Turning should be at least 3 times slower for humans.

This game is ruled by twohanders and polespammers because of it. Most of them can't block 3 hits in a row but they can avoid those hits. If melee fighting was more about blocking and timing and less about "footwork" 80% of twohanders would respec to ranged.

[Bulzur]

Bad awareness...

You must be joking, even by "²" perpetually around you, you're bound to miss one cav who can easily lance you, even more if it's an heirloomed courser.

Awareness was the key when there's 5-7 cavs in one team. It is not the case anymore.
True, infantry are still powerfull on foot or near walls, and in groups with at least 3 pike users. But we now see the appearance of very effective 24/15 "5 riding" builds. Not much of an investment skill point wise, a decent investment in money, and an awesome result.

Guess what, even Leyla is thinking about switching to cav. It doesn't feel good to kill cav anymore as a longspear user, since even after killing 4, there's still more, and the time you took killing thoses, your team got owned... The possibility to be WHERE you're needed, WHEN you're needed, that's the power of cav.

Fun fact : Leyla dies to :
cav : 60% of time
melee : 30% of time
ranged : 10% of time (killstealing when low hp... as usual)
And that's for a longspear user, dedicated to "repelling" cav.


Other fun fact : 1v1 cav vs longspear user. Who wins ?

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Cav. He dismounts and owns the shit out of the lonspear user. He's a lancer, he uses his backup weapon, with full wpf. He's a shielder, don't even need to swap weapon. The longspear user tries a few stab, before swapping to his faithfull 1h and 1 wpf. Gets stunlocked, and die. Unless it's Chase, but then he'll never dismounts, just run away. Draw.

[Kafein]

That proves nothing. I can kill 5 cavs in 10 seconds. And most of them will be good cav.

People die to cav because of bad awareness and crappy teams. I die to cav too, all the time and it's always due to not checking my behind for too long.

What bothers me the most, is the fact there's a lot of greatsword users and they die to cav when cav attack them frontally. For me, that's unacceptable.

I would really like to see different player movement model because current allows me to outreach lancer cav in 9/10 situations. Also, because of it people fight like circus freaks, dancing and randomly spamming all around the place. Turning should be at least 3 times slower for humans.

This game is ruled by twohanders and polespammers because of it. Most of them can't block 3 hits in a row but they can avoid those hits. If melee fighting was more about blocking and timing and less about "footwork" 80% of twohanders would respec to ranged.

Leshma will you marry me ?

[CrazyCracka420]

To you all cav hybrid haters:
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1-4 (well not even 5 if you are not knowing your stuff) riding doesn't exactly make you cav... Not even a cav hybrid...

Not sure why but I lol'ed really hard in my work cubicle for about 30 seconds to that pic

The state of affairs calls to mind an effort by humans to protect a bird species on an island by eradicating the cats there. Once they did, the rabbits flourished and destroyed the local vegetation, endangering the birds even more than the cats did.

That's the only thing I agree with, and it's opposite of your conclusion.  Nerfing things just leads to something else being overpowered.  It's been shown many times by my own experience, that infantry (including ranged units) working in decent groups dictates what happens on the map, not cavalry. 

[San]

Taking damage when you get dehorsed sounds reasonable to me.
Maybe damage could depend upon your current speed when getting dehorsed, punishing those running away a little more since they will be more out of reach when their horses die.

 Most of the time when I get hit, I take 10% damage and my horse takes 30-40%. There are also times where a person gets dehorsed so far away that infantry can't hit him while he's down. Damage when getting dehorsed allows one to actually be rewarded for targeting the horse, instead of poor hoplites, etc. who dehorses a cav player only to get slaughtered once he gets up.

[Leshma]

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Cav. He dismounts and owns the shit out of the lonspear user. He's a lancer, he uses his backup weapon, with full wpf. He's a shielder, don't even need to swap weapon. The longspear user tries a few stab, before swapping to his faithfull 1h and 1 wpf. Gets stunlocked, and die. Unless it's Chase, but then he'll never dismounts, just run away. Draw.

Leyla is a very good long spear user, however he's not that hard to kill when he's alone. I've fought Annoyans (Royanss) yesterday and he used perfect tactics (imho) for long spear user when fighting one on one situations. He did the same lolpiking like Chase does (although Chase is better at it) but he also used kick every time you get near him. And if you try to avoid the kick and hit him he would just release his held stab and hit you first. Thing is that you can't kick him before he kicks you, because he has longer weapon and you can't block stab when you're trying to kick. He raped me couple of times using this tactics. I still don't know how to counter it. Maybe it's easier for shielders, but people who don't use shields will die most of the time when facing a long spear user who fights like I explained above.

[Rumblood]

Not sure why but I lol'ed really hard in my work cubicle for about 30 seconds to that pic

That's the only thing I agree with, and it's opposite of your conclusion.  Nerfing things just leads to something else being overpowered.  It's been shown many times by my own experience, that infantry (including ranged units) working in decent groups dictates what happens on the map, not cavalry.

Opposite of what conclusion? My conclusion is to buff ranged, not nerf cav. In fact, I made a thread that proposed buffing every class in game. People only looked at the buffs in isolation, instead of as an entire system, and that in fact is my conclusion. That the balance in this game has been a series of nerfs in isolation that didn't look at the system as a whole.