cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sammael on March 20, 2011, 04:03:33 am
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So I was kicked from NA 100 just now for breaking ladders. Not teammates ladders mind you, opponent ladders.
Enemy team was camping roofs with one ladder up, heavily guarded. This put our team at a disadvantage. With 4-5 enemies left, I broke their ladder to force them off the roof. Hospitaller-Darkwulf proceeded to kick me from the game for doing this.
As far as I'm aware that's not breaking ANY rules and he did so purely to advantage his team? WTF
Can I get a word as to what the official rule is on breaking enemy ladders to force them down? This was my first kick from a game ever.. since I started playing last August...
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Thanks for trolling and for the -1...
Really though I'd like to know the official rule for this, as I'd rather not see a ban if I continue to do this in the future.
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So I was kicked from NA 100 just now for breaking ladders. Not teammates ladders mind you, opponent ladders.
Enemy team was camping roofs with one ladder up, heavily guarded. This put our team at a disadvantage. With 4-5 enemies left, I broke their ladder to force them off the roof. Hospitaller-Darkwulf proceeded to kick me from the game for doing this.
As far as I'm aware that's not breaking ANY rules and he did so purely to advantage his team? WTF
Can I get a word as to what the official rule is on breaking enemy ladders to force them down? This was my first kick from a game ever.. since I started playing last August...
Breaking opponents ladders is not against the rules.
If a group is on a roof and you break the ladder just to force the other team to violate the unreachable location rule, then you run around a corner and say "hah now you gota come down your violating the rules".
Then yes you can be kicked for "trolling". Your post was a correct recap of the events. You just left out your attempt of manipulating the rules. Your team had the other team outnumbered 2 to 1, and they were doing fine attacking the roof top campers until you got involved.
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Your team had the other team outnumbered 2 to 1, and they were doing fine attacking the roof top campers until you got involved.
If by doing fine attacking you mean sitting around for a minute waiting for MotF, then yes I agree
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asked and answered
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/thread then I suppose
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feel free to see the 'remove ladders from battle' thread in suggestions, though I am sure antoher week or so and there will be another.
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feel free to see the 'remove ladders from battle' thread in suggestions, though I am sure antoher week or so and there will be another.
After tonight I'd have to agree Zisa, ladders seem to cause a lot more harm than good, at least for battle. :(
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(http://img268.imageshack.us/i/roomfull.jpg/)
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Vicious666 is just a troll I care because we should all care that admins no what reasons to kick for. I wasn't there so I can only comment on your post. Yes it seems pretty stupid you got kicked. Do you know which admin kicked you? Have you talked to him?
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Vicious666 is just a troll I care because we should all care that admins no what to kick for. I wansn't there so I can only comment on your post and yes it seems pretty stupid you got kicked. Do you know which admin kicked you? Have you talked to him?
Hospitaller-Darkwulf proceeded to kick me from the game for doing this.
Already have been in discussion with him.
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Breaking opponents ladders is not against the rules.
If a group is on a roof and you break the ladder just to force the other team to violate the unreachable location rule, then you run around a corner and say "hah now you gota come down your violating the rules".
Then yes you can be kicked for "trolling". Your post was a correct recap of the events. You just left out your attempt of manipulating the rules. Your team had the other team outnumbered 2 to 1, and they were doing fine attacking the roof top campers until you got involved.
Seeing the Hospitaller kids play regularly, they like to let their team die and sit back in an extremely advantaged position and camp.
It seems like by knocking the ladder down, OP, you made them actually need to come down and fight.
In regards to Darkwulf saying you kicked him for "trolling" for saying the the OP stated something to the effect of "haha now you have to come down" -- that is nowhere near trolling, it's just stating a fact. You obviously have absolutely no idea what trolling is.
I really don't even see a kickable offense here; the guy broke down an enemy ladder. So what? He didn't grief, he didn't tk, he wasn't interrupting gameplay at all -- as a matter of fact, he made a sound tactical decision by forcing the enemy to retire from their advantaged position, that's not "manipulating" the rules, that's being intelligent.
Abuse forum, Sam.
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I really have no intention of getting revenge or getting anyone's admin powers removed. I've never seen Darkwulf do anything I've considered unjust before..
All I want is some clarification on the game rules so we can all kill each other peacefully :D
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I really have no intention of getting revenge or getting anyone's admin powers removed. I've never seen Darkwulf do anything I've considered unjust before..
All I want is some clarification on the game rules so we can all kill each other peacefully :D
I don't care about revenge, or what have you, I care about people displaying an inability to moderate correctly being allowed to continue to do so.
Regardless, it's your call.
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It's not inability to moderate, it is a 'grey' area of the rules regarding ladders. Nobody has come up with an adequate answer to the obvious silliness of scenarios involving breaking ladders.
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I don't agree with making rules/laws that are put into place just as an attempt to stop the real issue, which is delaying in this case. Obviously if people are actually delaying (not engaging) targets from the rooftop then, yes, kick them. But if people are actively engaging targets from a place you
cant currently don't have the means to get up to, warrants any admin action. Rely on your ranged units to take them out, bring a ladder or last but not least, get out of sight and force them to move.
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Welcome to the world of ladder bullshit. Since day 1 of their addition to the c-RPG battle servers and ensuing asshattery (ladderpaulting, teleporting glitch, ladder "art" and I use the term very loosely, and other assorted bullshit) I've campaigned to have them removed from the field in anything except strategus/siege battles where they have a legit purpose.
Of course everyone just LOVES ladders and the idiocy that can be caused by them so you might as well just grumble about them while accepting that they're apparently here to stay. Of course it really fits in with the general attitude of "How can I be a bigger bitch than normal" mindset that much of the community has overall.
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I don't care about revenge, or what have you, I care about people displaying an inability to moderate correctly being allowed to continue to do so.
Regardless, it's your call.
And so do I that's the bigger picture that can affect us all.
IMO ladders should be removed from battle only if admins can't just come to terms on what the rules about shit should be. It would just make things so much simpler in general but in a way would be kinda sad to see them go. If only we could get some clear rules for delay and leech and admins that followed them.
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I don't agree with making rules/laws that are put into place just as an attempt to stop the real issue, which is delaying in this case. Obviously if people are actually delaying (not engaging) targets from the rooftop then, yes, kick them. But if people are actively engaging targets from a place you cant currently don't have the means to get up to, warrants any admin action. Rely on your ranged units to take them out, bring a ladder or last but not least, get out of sight and force them to move.
That's the problem.
When ranged units get to an otherwise-unreachable-position and start shooting, even if you break down the ladder and run out of sight and "force" them to move, they won't. That moves us on to "ranged units" -- I shouldn't have to be ranged. #3, I shouldn't have to carry a ladder just to kill campers.
If you're the last alive, and you're somewhere that *requires* a ladder to get to and there is no longer a ladder, shooting at the enemy isn't acceptable as far as the definition of "engaging" goes because most of the time the enemy is unable to reciprocate fire as well due to the extreme terrain disadvantage. People who are in unreachable positions need to retire to a "normal" position on the map if they're the last alive, period, otherwise it just gets stupid with delaying/nonsensical camping.
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I don't think ladders should be banned on battle servers, but if anything be allowed only to reach places that are otherwise reachable. (using as siege shield is fine too)
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many times happens that defenders try to break the ladder they put themselves as soon as they see enemy using it to climb up to them. breaking their ladder by yourself forcing them to jump down and take a damage and fight is a valid tactics for me. why should you be arsed to risk your life just because they put a ladder on some high roof?
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Ladders seem to require constant moderation to avoid abuse, and there's a huge gray area surrounding them and their destruction. There are times where you "could" get to a place if you jumped rooftops and stuff for like 5 minutes, so since the person is technically reachable do they need to come down if the ladder they used to get up is destroyed?
I think Battle would be a lot better without ladders. Save them for sieges.
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I posted this exact scenario about three weeks ago on the NA server rules thread, as a "what-if". I wanted clarification because I knew this would happen. As soon as admins started kicking roof campers, not for being the last alive, but for being in inaccessible areas, the best tactic was to destroy their ladders. It was only a matter of time before someone was kicked for destroying the ladders.
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,776.msg48575.html#msg48575
Unfortunately, no one clarified the issue.
The whole trolling excuse is just that, an excuse. People call each other friends, bundle of stickss, wishing them death by fire, etc on a daily basis, without getting kicked. I think if that's ok, telling someone they need to get down because their ladder is gone, is ok.
I also vote to get rid of ladders. If thats not possible, it should be a requirement that all mappers either make their roofs inaccessible or provide permanent access to them in some way.
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People call each other friends, bundle of stickss, wishing them death by fire, etc on a daily basis, without getting kicked.
Not when some of us admins are on. Though muting happens rather instantaneously nowadays from a few of us.
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Wow tell me about it. On an NA map earlier this week we kept having a team full of archers volley us from rooftops repeatedly. I finally had enough and smashed their ladder - I know the rules and knew the grey area would point to the simple fact they would have to COME DOWN - well no sooner have I done this than TS_Boyar_Castor who is my team mate starts just raging, and I mean raging in chat. Like a supreme nerd rage where he starts team attacking me. I stand there and keep asking wtf in chat. He takes my life down 75% until I start shielding him and then he just starts running aorund the map screaming how much he HATES me now and how absolutely enraged he is, lol. He will not let it go. I try and explain my position, and the simple fact that living with an x1 modifier due to them basically using douchebaggery imo was not appropriate to me, neither was team attacking to make his. He took nerd rage to the next level and finally rage quit. Tried to send him a pm on here but I think he had a breakdown as I have not seen him ingame since.
I guess the TS clan make the rules on both ladders and team attack rages.
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Breaking enemies ladders should never be grounds to kick or ban anyone, that's retarded, the enemy should guard their ladders if they want them so much, rather than expect the enemies to walk 1 by 1 up a ladder to a roof where they're all camping.
If you want to roof camp, protect your ladders, you're lucky the torches can't be used to burn down buildings right now lol.
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Easiest way to fix archers camping on roofs: Make the master of the field flags always spawn at say 1.30 mins left.
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Seeing the Hospitaller kids play regularly, they like to let their team die and sit back in an extremely advantaged position and camp.
This is Fact, If i'm playing and i see i'm on the Hosp team, I don't do anything, i just wait for there gaggle of geese to decide its time to fight
The real only way to fix camping on roofs, is make it so you can burn buildings down. since thats what would happen, want to camp a roof? ill set said roof on fire.
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The real only way to fix camping on roofs, is make it so you can burn buildings down. since thats what would happen, want to camp a roof? ill set said roof on fire.
This would indeed be epic, and the RL logical solution to this nuisance.
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Another vote for torch lighting up buildings! Never even knew this was possible ingame but what a great idea!
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Wow, what a kid, people like him should never ever be admins.
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So if campers destroy their ladders, it's ok, but if the guys attacking them destroy the ladder they can get banned? Seems like double standarts to me. Also, that case is hardly a grey zone of ladder usage, it's a zone of stupidity of the admin who actually kicks people for destryoing enemy ladders.
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Was on the 100 man NA this afternoon and had people using construction materials to block all the pathways. Even after all the fuss late last week the admins present just turned a blind eye as it was aiding their team anyhow. Hate being a hatemonger but cmon! Rules are rules and the admins seem hell bent on bending them as they see fit. Not all of them - not trolling here. But some.
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Was on the 100 man NA this afternoon and had people using construction materials to block all the pathways. Even after all the fuss late last week the admins present just turned a blind eye as it was aiding their team anyhow. Hate being a hatemonger but cmon! Rules are rules and the admins seem hell bent on bending them as they see fit. Not all of them - not trolling here. But some.
:(
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That picture tells us all that Asian people care the most!
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When a team gets on a rooftop it creates many potential problems. But the game mechanics allow for this to be done. If it is such a problem then ladders should be removed altogether, I dont really care.
But since ladders are here for now, and rooftops are accessible when using them, this is how I deal with the ladders.
If the roof top people break their ladder after going up, then I am going to kick them if they dont get down. If the other team breaks the ladder to force them down, I am going to kick them. I think both actions are cowardly. If delaying comes into the scenario then a different action might be taken.
There is only so much you can do about it. It could cause delaying, it could cause an unfair advantage to the people on the ground, it could create an inaccessible location, etc. People will cry foul on the ground or the roof, attacking or defending.
So if you see a ladder placed to gain rooftop access, leave it alone. It is the only option that is fair to both teams as long as ladders and rooftops are in play.
In this specific incident, the roof top people had a disadvantage. They were outnumbered and there was plenty of time left on the clock. They did not break their own ladder, leaving the other team access to the roof.
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When a team gets on a rooftop it creates many potential problems. But the game mechanics allow for this to be done. If it is such a problem then ladders should be removed altogether, I dont really care.
But since ladders are here for now, and rooftops are accessible when using them, this is how I deal with the ladders.
If the roof top people break their ladder after going up, then I am going to kick them if they dont get down. If the other team breaks the ladder to force them down, I am going to kick them. I think both actions are cowardly. If delaying comes into the scenario then a different action might be taken.
There is only so much you can do about it. It could cause delaying, it could cause an unfair advantage to the people on the ground, it could create an inaccessible location, etc. People will cry foul on the ground or the roof, attacking or defending.
So if you see a ladder placed to gain rooftop access, leave it alone. It is the only option that is fair to both teams as long as ladders and rooftops are in play.
Best Admin decision to be honest.
If you break ladders that you placed to secure your roof, then you are exploiting game mechanics.
If you break ladders that the opponent placed to force them down, then you are exploiting the game rules.
Either way, exploitation and cowardly.
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When a team gets on a rooftop it creates many potential problems. But the game mechanics allow for this to be done. If it is such a problem then ladders should be removed altogether, I dont really care.
But since ladders are here for now, and rooftops are accessible when using them, this is how I deal with the ladders.
If the roof top people break their ladder after going up, then I am going to kick them if they dont get down. If the other team breaks the ladder to force them down, I am going to kick them. I think both actions are cowardly. If delaying comes into the scenario then a different action might be taken.
There is only so much you can do about it. It could cause delaying, it could cause an unfair advantage to the people on the ground, it could create an inaccessible location, etc. People will cry foul on the ground or the roof, attacking or defending.
So if you see a ladder placed to gain rooftop access, leave it alone. It is the only option that is fair to both teams as long as ladders and rooftops are in play.
In this specific incident, the roof top people had a disadvantage. They were outnumbered and there was plenty of time left on the clock. They did not break their own ladder, leaving the other team access to the roof.
Why should people on the ground storm hard to reach position using ladder that could damage them when they approach ? Using such system, you promote cowardly camping and ruin game experience for many players. You are one of the worst admins in the game, and i feel you should lose admin rights.
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Why should people on the ground storm hard to reach position using ladder that could damage them when they approach ? Using such system, you promote cowardly camping and ruin game experience for many players. You are one of the worst admins in the game, and i feel you should lose admin rights.
If the rooftop campers broke their own ladder they would be forced down or kicked, but I understand you might not have actually read what I posted.
The mechanics are not prefect, and you obviously cannot base the decision off any kind of real tactics because of the inaccessibility rule. So the only logical decision is to grant those ladders immunity and let the players figure out how to fight. Until ladders are removed of course.
If you chose to allow the ground team to break the ladder to force a rule violation on the players on the roof, you would be making a biased decision in favor of the players on the ground. The same would go for allowing the roof top players to break the ladder after going up. An admin must make un biased decisions and thus side with the ladders in this case. Making the ladders un breakable is not taking either side. At the same time allowing for the game to continue without kicking players.
This stands until I hear a better, more fair, suggestion.
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If the rooftop campers broke their own ladder they would be forced down or kicked, but I understand you might not have actually read what I posted.
The mechanics are not prefect, and you obviously cannot base the decision off any kind of real tactics because of the inaccessibility rule. So the only logical decision is to grant those ladders immunity and let the players figure out how to fight. Until ladders are removed of course.
If you chose to allow the ground team to break the ladder to force a rule violation on the players on the roof, you would be making a biased decision in favor of the players on the ground. The same would go for allowing the roof top players to break the ladder after going up. An admin must make un biased decisions and thus side with the ladders in this case. Making the ladders un breakable is not taking either side. At the same time allowing for the game to continue without kicking players.
This stands until I hear a better, more fair, suggestion.
They would kill most attackers when destroying ladder. If attackers attack one by one they would die ganged.
It's not biased decision. On the ground, both teams have similar chance to win. With campers with ladders, it's more likely for them to win.
Better suggestion is simple, allow people to destroy ladders and kick campers who don't leave the inaccesible rooftop.
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All maps should have specific roofs that are accessible with permanent ladders and put barriers for the rest. It would be a pain in the ass do to for all the maps but do it once and you're done. Then don't add new maps unless they meet this criteria. This is the only way that allows roofs to still be used as a tactical position, allows infantry to still gain access and admins won't need to babysit or settle arguments of who destroyed the ladder. Otherwise, we can argue every round, while we wait 5 years for chadz to maybe implement some change.
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They would kill most attackers when destroying ladder. If attackers attack one by one they would die ganged.
It's not biased decision. On the ground, both teams have similar chance to win. With campers with ladders, it's more likely for them to win.
Better suggestion is simple, allow people to destroy ladders and kick campers who don't leave the inaccesible rooftop.
My decision is not who has a better chance to win. There are people who like to get on roofs and people who like to stay on the ground. Keeping everything on the ground is biased. Keeping everything on the roofs is biased.
"Better suggestion is simple, allow people to destroy ladders and kick campers who don't leave the inaccesible rooftop" <--- biased suggestion.
It is hard to grasp an unbiased suggestion when you are so against the roof top campers.
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All maps should have specific roofs that are accessible with permanent ladders and put barriers for the rest. It would be a pain in the ass do to for all the maps but do it once and you're done. Then don't add new maps unless they meet this criteria. This is the only way that allows roofs to still be used as a tactical position, allows infantry to still gain access and admins won't need to babysit or settle arguments of who destroyed the ladder. Otherwise, we can argue every round, while we wait 5 years for chadz to maybe implement some change.
I like it. But I dont make maps or have anything to do with which ones are used. So I am stuck with what I get.
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You'd kick someone for destroying a ladder? Pffft...there needs to be some actual rules in place instead of whatever you feel like doing imo.
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I thought an Admin had to act on server rules and not on his own opinion?
I thought the rules were widely regarded as if you are in a place that is not accessable, get down or be kicked, I haven't heard of any rules about breaking enemy ladders to force them down is a kickable and bannable offense, whoever runs the server should make these rules clear, rules matter, opinions don't.
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The current "rules" in most servers are worthlessly vague, and the majority of "rules" are unspoken ones.
All maps should have specific roofs that are accessible with permanent ladders and put barriers for the rest. It would be a pain in the ass do to for all the maps but do it once and you're done. Then don't add new maps unless they meet this criteria. This is the only way that allows roofs to still be used as a tactical position, allows infantry to still gain access and admins won't need to babysit or settle arguments of who destroyed the ladder. Otherwise, we can argue every round, while we wait 5 years for chadz to maybe implement some change.
That would be ideal actually, and hopefully we can get some mappers to wake up about this.
Until then, we should create maps with defensible positions and then complain loudly if the enemy team is using them. :rolleyes:
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Darkwulf should lose admin.
Being forced to go single file up a ladder to chase a lame camper waiting at the top with a longmaul
riiiight....
you have to go up a narrow ladder while archers all over the roof attack from both sides
riiiiight....
I don't have a problem with rooftop camping. but once the ladder is destroyed get down.
people on top can shoot at the people who are trying to get at ladder what is wrong with destroying ladder.
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Darkwulf should lose admin.
Being forced to go single file up a ladder to chase a lame camper waiting at the top with a longmaul
riiiight....
you have to go up a narrow ladder while archers all over the roof attack from both sides
riiiiight....
I don't have a problem with rooftop camping. but once the ladder is destroyed get down.
people on top can shoot at the people who are trying to get at ladder what is wrong with destroying ladder.
I have had this conversation with the server admin (higher than me) and what I was told to do is as long as the archers are not delaying the round and have people fighting on the ground, they can stay up on the roof even if they are not accessable. As long as they are not delaying.
But being on the ground when I cannot get up to archer is not very fun. If there is a ladder there I can get up the ladder without being shot fairly easy. A shielder really helps out.
So if anything I took it a step towards nuetrality.
Another argument could be to go wherever you want and if you cant get there, then I guess you should have brought a ladder.
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I killed ladders of roof campers alot of times.
The rules say if the ladder is destroyed, ppl must come down.
so it´s quiete obvious that the admin here have made a wrong decision with kicking that guy.
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I killed ladders of roof campers alot of times.
The rules say if the ladder is destroyed, ppl must come down.
so it´s quiete obvious that the admin here have made a wrong decision with kicking that guy.
And his higher ups agree, so apparently the bulk of admins disagree with the player base of ladder-destroyers as I have seen this look from many other Admins as well.
In my opinion, it is obvious that the rules need to be concrete and updated.
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I have had this conversation with the server admin (higher than me) and what I was told to do is as long as the archers are not delaying the round and have people fighting on the ground, they can stay up on the roof even if they are not accessable. As long as they are not delaying.
But being on the ground when I cannot get up to archer is not very fun. If there is a ladder there I can get up the ladder without being shot fairly easy. A shielder really helps out.
So if anything I took it a step towards nuetrality.
Another argument could be to go wherever you want and if you cant get there, then I guess you should have brought a ladder.
I agree with not doing anything to roof campers while there is still lots of action going on ground but totally disagree with punishing someone for destroying a ladder of enemy team.
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the rules change so much and so fast who cares anyways at this point. I think it all depends on feelings really. A person either gets kicked/banned or not depending on feelings that day/week/month right?
Without definate rules I don't see how banning people is an option. That's insane.
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Another point I could make is where the heck was my warning for doing so. I got an immediate kick, while I was still actively fighting to win the round.
Does an action that is obviously so controversial really constitute a kick on a first offense?
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If you're asking me the answer is no. But all reasoning aside - then yes.
Whether you got kicked would depend if you're in a clan and if so which one. Are you? If not, then there is your answer. I'm finding more and more that admins take out their issues on clanless peeps. They can say different but its a cowards release right. They can make a martyr out of someone, show some power and there won't be a group of people who will defend the injustice - aka - clan mates ingame or afterwards.
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Was on the 100 man NA this afternoon and had people using construction materials to block all the pathways. Even after all the fuss late last week the admins present just turned a blind eye as it was aiding their team anyhow. Hate being a hatemonger but cmon! Rules are rules and the admins seem hell bent on bending them as they see fit. Not all of them - not trolling here. But some.
Construction sites are not prohibited on the 100 man. However, they are bannable offenses on the siege and 80 man.
Since the servers are managed by different ppl (Devilize vs. ATS), some rules are different. I believe I explained this when it came up on the 100 man when I was on.
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But since ladders are here for now, and rooftops are accessible when using them, this is how I deal with the ladders.
If the roof top people break their ladder after going up, then I am going to kick them if they dont get down. If the other team breaks the ladder to force them down, I am going to kick them.
I urge you to alter your position on this. Here is why:
Maps are balanced "as is" without ladders on the map. Using ladders to reach otherwise unreachable locations alters the map balance(likely into the favor of the roof campers). Since the rules allow for this to happen, we then have the issue of the left over ladder.
From the campers perspective, with no rules in place, the most tactically sound decision is to destroy the ladder so no one can interrupt their pew pew. Even with rules, roof campers are STILL allowed to do this, and remain on the roof so long as they have living teammates who are NOT in unreachable locations. And with the current rules in place, it is sometimes the tactically sound decision of the "enemy" to destroy a camper's ladder. Furthermore, destroying the ladder of campers who are in an inaccessable, but highly defensible location is something that totally could have happened realistically. And if that camping location is so high that the fall spells death? Even moreso. Think about it. As an army commander, guys are in a spot far up, with the only access being a ladder. They have no food, and no other way down. Sending men up the ladder would be leading them to their death. So what do you do? Remove the ladder and leave them to starve/jump to their death.
The rule that they need to come down was designed to prevent the following scenario: Campers camp, ladder is destroyed(doesn't matter who did it), enemies on the ground(who can't shoot back) hide from campers. Stalemate occurs, everyone argues over who's fault the delay of game is.
The rules are fine and functional without you adding to them, or putting your own spin on how to enforce them, Darkwulf. The campers already get to camp until they are the last ones left, essentially giving them a free pass for survival unless the rest of their team dies. This is balanced by requiring them to come down after ALL the rest of their team is already dead. If they choose a rooftop that they can jump from without dying/taking damage, that is the smart thing to do. If not, then they failed to plan strategically for what COULD happen.
Destroying ladders is part of the game. Sometimes it's a good tactic, sometimes it might be better to leave the ladder. Either way, Darkwulf, I think we should leave the tactical decisions to the players. And as admins, the word "cowardly" should never be used in a justification statement of our actions.
Cowardly tactics are allowed. Battle is about winning, not how you did it. History is written by the victor. I could continue saying this a hundred different ways, but you get the point.
Construction sites are not prohibited on the 100 man. However, they are bannable offenses on the siege and 80 man.
Since the servers are managed by different ppl (Devilize vs. ATS), some rules are different. I believe I explained this when it came up on the 100 man when I was on.
Yes they are, Panderson. For the record, CONSTRUCTION SITES ARE PROHIBITED ON ALL SERVERS, BOTH EU AND NA.
It was a recent addition in Devilize's rules thread. Apparently, no one told Devilize that construction sites were indestructible until I said something to him a week or so ago.
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^+1
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Construction sites are not prohibited on the 100 man. However, they are bannable offenses on the siege and 80 man.
Since the servers are managed by different ppl (Devilize vs. ATS), some rules are different. I believe I explained this when it came up on the 100 man when I was on.
Well explaining it is as good as those present. I guess mixed rules are present which explains the confusion completely. It was definately devilizes server as the hospitalizers were using the material to their advantage. LOL
Whichever. That makes more sense. But posting it here is half the battle.
GI JOE!
OOPS I posted that before reading that you were wrong. Which no offence, but maybe if you're going to mod with an iron fist you could get the facts straight instead of running on feelings. You just made a 4 page argument over something you should of known being in your position. :rolleyes: I'm not the enemy here - I'm the victim
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Hi
A reply from an EU admin.
We have been discussing this situation, and weve agreed that the side whos making the people on the roof unreachable is those to blame. That means if you destroy the ladders of the opposite side so they get unreachable, you might get banned. Thats how were gonna enforce it on EU-side. If they break the rules because of you, YOU are the one whos breaking em.
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Hi
A reply from an EU admin.
We have been discussing this situation, and weve agreed that the side whos making the people on the roof unreachable is those to blame. That means if you destroy the ladders of the opposite side so they get unreachable, you might get banned. Thats how were gonna enforce it on EU-side. If they break the rules because of you, YOU are the one whos breaking em.
<3 <3 <3
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Hi
A reply from an EU admin.
We have been discussing this situation, and weve agreed that the side whos making the people on the roof unreachable is those to blame. That means if you destroy the ladders of the opposite side so they get unreachable, you might get banned. Thats how were gonna enforce it on EU-side. If they break the rules because of you, YOU are the one whos breaking em.
The problem with this solution is the following scenario:
A ladder leads to a high rooftop, where several people are camping. The people on the ground are not allowed to destroy the ladder, or they get banned. So they all file onto the ladder to assault the rooftop. As they near the top, the people on the roof destroy the ladder, causing everyone on it to die from fall damage. THEN, to ensure they follow the rules, they jump down from the unreachable position, but it doesn't matter because the rules forced the other team to die already.
Basically, what I'm saying is: That rule is unfair and biased in favor of the roof campers, who are already exploiting an advantageous position. Combining your "no delaying" rule with the "no destroying ladders to unreachable positions" rule, you're basically giving campers the free win if they're the only ones left. All they have to do is wait for the other team to get on the ladder, then kill the ladder.
I almost wish I was an EU player, just so I could demonstrate just how retarded it could be. It would be worth it to spawn with extra ladders, just so you could kill one(killing several enemies), then jump down and throw a new ladder up to the (now)unreachable position again before you hit the ground, so that it becomes accessible again, and your allies can stay up there. Rinse and repeat till enemy team is dead.
Of course, most reasonable admins would see that as abusing the rules system, and put a stop to it. But that's not the point. The point is to have a rules system that isn't so illogical and full of holes that it requires an admin to make a judgment call.
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In your second paragraph though, the team broke the rules first, period, end of story, so kick the roof campers. They jumped AFTER they broke the ladder.
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I have never seen the situation you describe being a problem.
If people camp on a good place, thats a tactic of how to fight. Its not an attempt to avoid fighting at all. The rule is NOT there to make it a fair fight, but to prevent people to hide or make an unreachable place to force a draw. The situation you describe does not force a draw. Yes, I do see a problem in the situation, but from the rules, theres nothing to do with it.
Ok, lets say we make a rule to prevent this situation. It would be named something like "do not camp on a favorable position to have a bigger chance to win". I think you do see the problem with such a rule, yes? Sooner or later, it will mean that everyone gotta go into a duel to prevent a favorable situation.. and then we could just close down the battle servers and send everyone into duel servers.
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Maps are balanced "as is" without ladders on the map. Using ladders to reach otherwise unreachable locations alters the map balance(likely into the favor of the roof campers).
This ^
Removal of ladders in battle servers is IMO the only real option... if archers want to camp, they should go in siege.
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Remove the ladders - this is insane. The matches are timed, this isn't a camping game. If an area was meant to be accesable there would be a built in ladder would there not?
Basically like talking to a brick wall let's be honest here. Nothing but cheaper and cheaper tactics, people pushing the limits on what's allowable and not, bending rules to suite their needs. None of this matter if it weren't for losing multipliers which are really what we fight for to begin with. That is if you're competitive, otherwise I guess you just fight to camp and cause draws or win matches by unreachable defaults.
Whatever. Poorly run system imo. Mods get angry at statements like this but I'm just giving my honest opinion. Not attacking you personally Lilith.
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Basically like talking to a brick wall let's be honest here. Nothing but cheaper and cheaper tactics, people pushing the limits on what's allowable and not, bending rules to suite their needs.
Whatever. Poorly run system imo. Mods get angry at statements like this but I'm just giving my honest opinion. Not attacking you personally Lilith.
I agree, people are pushing the limits. Thats why I think its important to keep the limits strikt. Thats also why were not allowing people to force other players to break the rules by removing the ladders to put the opponent in an unreachable place.
I do think the devs are working on solutions tho, and trying out stuff. Its just that they're doing this on their spare time, so we gotta be patient.
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Ok I don't agree with all this ladder bullshit enabling roof campers to camp roofs forever, that just promotes stale gameplay, we don't need more stale gameplay when we already have a shit ton of ranged weapons everywhere.
So I will not ever be climbing up a ladder to attack the guys on roof, I will just wait by the wall down below where they can't shoot me until they come down, after all it's them that will be camping and not me.
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Ok I don't agree with all this ladder bullshit enabling roof campers to camp roofs forever, that just promotes stale gameplay, we don't need more stale gameplay when we already have a shit ton of ranged weapons everywhere.
So I will not ever be climbing up a ladder to attack the guys on roof, I will just wait by the wall down below where they can't shoot me until they come down, after all it's them that will be camping and not me.
Tried that, but got so bored, so i just left battle completely instead. Siege & duels is the place to be =D
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So I will not ever be climbing up a ladder to attack the guys on roof, I will just wait by the wall down below where they can't shoot me until they come down, after all it's them that will be camping and not me.
Tried that, but got so bored, so i just left battle completely instead. Siege & duels is the place to be =D
This is one of the biggest problems I have with the system that Lilith is endorsing. It's boring gameplay if both sides try to wait each other out, and most of the time this happens, they don't fight until the last 30 seconds, often resulting in a draw. Also, many admins will determine that the guy on the ground is the one delaying by not going up the ladder to kill, and kick him to end the round. Bullshit? Yes. But what can you do?
P.S. I don't kick in these scenarios. In my opinion, both people are doing what is tactically sound for them. Furthermore, I'd like to add that Lilith's spin on the rules will have no effect on the rules on the NA servers. Ladders ARE allowed to be destroyed(by anyone, so long as it doesn't cause FF), and people who are the last one's alive in unreachable positions must come down. Period. If Devilize returns from vacation and alters his rule, I will enforce it as written. Until then, the above is my official position.
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Just remove ladders from battle servers. Period. They fuck everything up and are simply used as a means to exploit retarded parts of a map which were never meant to be accessed. This whole rules-lawyering in order to squeeze every last drop of being a fucking douche out of the game without getting banned is rediculous. Ladders break maps. Breaking maps is shitty. Therefore get rid of ladders. It shouldn't get this damn complicated.
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Hi
A reply from an EU admin.
We have been discussing this situation, and weve agreed that the side whos making the people on the roof unreachable is those to blame. That means if you destroy the ladders of the opposite side so they get unreachable, you might get banned. Thats how were gonna enforce it on EU-side. If they break the rules because of you, YOU are the one whos breaking em.
Words can not describe the utter and complete shite gameplay of not only camping a roof, but getting rule lawyers to prevent any attempt to force squirrels down, who apparently are now protected by the geneva convention.
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heres the thing though i camp roofs often, till there are no more allys on the ground then u come down and fight after all delaying is gay as fuck and if ive lost ive lost but what screwes every thing up is when the douche comes over and kills the ladder so i cant get down even if i wanted to with out dieing. example was playing the 80 man late 2 nights ago dont remember which map but it had a huge ruined arch so i was up on top had left the ladder the other team had 1 shielder and 1 crossbow man who had already hit me 2 times so i was near death then the ladder dies to a 3rd guy then the guy who killed the ladder started a kick vote now the 2 guys who were fighting me actually said they hit 2 because one the shielder could have come up he had a huscarl andit was just me up on the roof not much of a threat and they still had ranged units to shoot me with if they didnt want to come up. result i ended up etting kicked rejoining and a few people on the ladder killers own team getting mad at him. i mean i do understand when uve got alot of ranged up on a roof but when uve got the means to kill them I.E. ranged or good shields they could have gotten me or like i said i would have come down... my last ally had died to the ladder killer and got the ladder before i coulp hop on it and come back down. idk what to think or what should be done just throwing somthing that ahppened in here to be read or ignored and to be thought of as what ever. ill just say this it is one thing to camp up and kill the ladder or expect people to come up after u and another thing to have the campers come down.
this reminds me of the snow map with the one ruin in the middle surrounded by a forest. 4 nights ago had the entire enemy team up on the ruin where the flag spawns and the flag spawn is closer to their spawn so much so that by the time we could even see the tower they had siege sheilds set up ladders set up and every ranged unit up the walls and all they did was camp for the map killing us all off with bows and throwing weps couldnt come near them. after i died i went back and checked the ladders were gone they had killed them to make sure we couldnt get up. along with their clear shot up into the towers. so heres my suggestion dont remove ladders completely justremove the siege ladder and the longer ladders leave the shorter ones so that u can only get up ontop of the really short roofs that way people can only get up ontop of things they can jump down from. and if they still refuse to jump well that would warrent a kick or if repeated a ban. considering that getting down with out a ladder can be done with no damage. i dont know how long the ladders are but maybe just up till the medium or the one before that keep ive never used em so idk how long they are. and yes i know they can still be stacked but that means they would only have 1 wepon slot or less weapon slots in total and if they still did it with small ladders that should warrent a kick for pure douche baggery
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My suggestion is that we force new mappers to only make maps where every roof as either A an invisible wall or B a way to get there, and do not accept any map that does not fit this criteria.
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I suggest we give melee 'minor globe of invulnerability', which seems about right.
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Easiest way to fix archers camping on roofs: Make the master of the field flags always spawn at say 1.30 mins left.
This seems like an easy fix. The master of the field flags are working properly now right? This is the reason why the flags are there, to prevent stalemates. I don't think people should be kicked for breaking ladders and forcing the other team to jump down, it requires too much hands on refereeing. Even right now, if someone's roof camping, why not just ignore them and go wait by the flag? You should definitely break their ladders so they get hurt jumping down, if it's decided that's legal. :idea:
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My suggestion is that we force new mappers to only make maps where every roof as either A an invisible wall or B a way to get there, and do not accept any map that does not fit this criteria.
This would be accomplished easier by simply not allowing ladders to be spawned on the battle server. It would accomplish the exact same thing, except, instead of 50 people having to make multiple changes to current and future maps, 1 guy could make 1 change to the code.
Even right now, if someone's roof camping, why not just ignore them and go wait by the flag?
Many maps actually have a random flag spawn location, precisely so you can't camp the flag spawn.
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another alternate suggestion - decrease fall damage.
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Many maps actually have a random flag spawn location, precisely so you can't camp the flag spawn.
If you're on the ground close to the roof campers, that should give you a head start on the race to the flag. Plus it brings campers down to fight, possibly with reduced health from the jump, so the flag might not even be necessary.
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The problem with this solution is the following scenario:
A ladder leads to a high rooftop, where several people are camping. The people on the ground are not allowed to destroy the ladder, or they get banned. So they all file onto the ladder to assault the rooftop. As they near the top, the people on the roof destroy the ladder, causing everyone on it to die from fall damage. THEN, to ensure they follow the rules, they jump down from the unreachable position, but it doesn't matter because the rules forced the other team to die already.
Basically, what I'm saying is: That rule is unfair and biased in favor of the roof campers, who are already exploiting an advantageous position. Combining your "no delaying" rule with the "no destroying ladders to unreachable positions" rule, you're basically giving campers the free win if they're the only ones left. All they have to do is wait for the other team to get on the ladder, then kill the ladder.
I almost wish I was an EU player, just so I could demonstrate just how retarded it could be. It would be worth it to spawn with extra ladders, just so you could kill one(killing several enemies), then jump down and throw a new ladder up to the (now)unreachable position again before you hit the ground, so that it becomes accessible again, and your allies can stay up there. Rinse and repeat till enemy team is dead.
Of course, most reasonable admins would see that as abusing the rules system, and put a stop to it. But that's not the point. The point is to have a rules system that isn't so illogical and full of holes that it requires an admin to make a judgment call.
Well at leats NA can enforce their own rules on this. Seems that many people just can't get it.
Anyway I still say remove them all from battle servers. If it was possible allow each server to choose wether or not they are allowed.
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Many maps actually have a random flag spawn location, precisely so you can't camp the flag spawn.
The native maps each have 3 flag spawn locations that they can randomly spawn at. I'm guessing that in custom maps it's up to the map maker how many spawn locations he/she puts in.
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Awesome, we can't even get admins on the same server to agree to a standard enforcement. So basically players have these options if they are the last one or one of a couple:
1)destroy the ladder, possibly kicked depending on admins present
2)climb the ladder and likely get pin cushioned one by one
3)wait it out on the ground and get accused of delaying/camping and get kicked, depending on admins present
Once again, the terrorists win.
I would personally volunteer to change all the maps on the NA servers to add barriers and/or permanent ladders and make sure they all had flags. I make maps and barricade 90% of my roofs, leaving at least one permanent way to the ones left open. I don't believe ladders should be removed completely, as much as I hate archers. They do provide some interesting tactics occasionally.
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Awesome, we can't even get admins on the same server to agree to a standard enforcement. So basically players have these options if they are the last one or one of a couple:
1)destroy the ladder, possibly kicked depending on admins present
2)climb the ladder and likely get pin cushioned one by one
3)wait it out on the ground and get accused of delaying/camping and get kicked, depending on admins present
Darkwulf is the only admin I've ever heard of to kick a player on any of the NA servers for breaking an enemy ladder. I typically do not publically disagree with other admins, preferring to work differences of opinion out away from the public eye. However, in the absence of Devilize, who makes the rules, Darkwulf is interpereting the spirit of the rule in his own way, even though it is not a stated rule on that server.
While I understand Darkwulf's position and opinon, this type of enforcement has never been done on any of the NA servers, and I don't think it should be happening without first getting either a ruling from Devilize, or a consensus from the rest of the NA admins. Barring those two situations, I think it should be enforced as it has been ever since ladders were introduced to crpg.
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We should follow the RN articles of war:
"All other crimes not capital committed by any person or persons in the fleet, which are not mentioned in this act, or for which no punishment is hereby directed to be inflicted, shall be punished by the laws and customs in such cases used at sea."
The custom as I've always known it on c-rpg = Archers need to man up and get off the roof.
There's also one about sodomy that I think Huey Newton should read. Maybe he and I can read it together. Alone.