Kicked for breaking opponent ladders??

[Tears of Destiny]

Hi
A reply from an EU admin.
We have been discussing this situation, and weve agreed that the side whos making the people on the roof unreachable is those to blame. That means if you destroy the ladders of the opposite side so they get unreachable, you might get banned. Thats how were gonna enforce it on EU-side. If they break the rules because of you, YOU are the one whos breaking em.

<3 <3 <3

[Heroin]

Hi
A reply from an EU admin.
We have been discussing this situation, and weve agreed that the side whos making the people on the roof unreachable is those to blame. That means if you destroy the ladders of the opposite side so they get unreachable, you might get banned. Thats how were gonna enforce it on EU-side. If they break the rules because of you, YOU are the one whos breaking em.

The problem with this solution is the following scenario:

A ladder leads to a high rooftop, where several people are camping. The people on the ground are not allowed to destroy the ladder, or they get banned. So they all file onto the ladder to assault the rooftop. As they near the top, the people on the roof destroy the ladder, causing everyone on it to die from fall damage. THEN, to ensure they follow the rules, they jump down from the unreachable position, but it doesn't matter because the rules forced the other team to die already.

Basically, what I'm saying is: That rule is unfair and biased in favor of the roof campers, who are already exploiting an advantageous position. Combining your "no delaying" rule with the "no destroying ladders to unreachable positions" rule, you're basically giving campers the free win if they're the only ones left. All they have to do is wait for the other team to get on the ladder, then kill the ladder.

I almost wish I was an EU player, just so I could demonstrate just how retarded it could be. It would be worth it to spawn with extra ladders, just so you could kill one(killing several enemies), then jump down and throw a new ladder up to the (now)unreachable position again before you hit the ground, so that it becomes accessible again, and your allies can stay up there. Rinse and repeat till enemy team is dead.

Of course, most reasonable admins would see that as abusing the rules system, and put a stop to it. But that's not the point. The point is to have a rules system that isn't so illogical and full of holes that it requires an admin to make a judgment call.

[Tears of Destiny]

In your second paragraph though, the team broke the rules first, period, end of story, so kick the roof campers. They jumped AFTER they broke the ladder.

[nuffen]

I have never seen the situation you describe being a problem.

If people camp on a good place, thats a tactic of how to fight. Its not an attempt to avoid fighting at all. The rule is NOT there to make it a fair fight, but to prevent people to hide or make an unreachable place to force a draw. The situation you describe does not force a draw. Yes, I do see a problem in the situation, but from the rules, theres nothing to do with it.

Ok, lets say we make a rule to prevent this situation. It would be named something like "do not camp on a favorable position to have a bigger chance to win". I think you do see the problem with such a rule, yes? Sooner or later, it will mean that everyone gotta go into a duel to prevent a favorable situation.. and then we could just close down the battle servers and send everyone into duel servers.

[Siboire]

Maps are balanced "as is" without ladders on the map. Using ladders to reach otherwise unreachable locations alters the map balance(likely into the favor of the roof campers).

This ^

Removal of ladders in battle servers is IMO the only real option... if archers want to camp, they should go in siege.

[1slander]

Remove the ladders - this is insane.  The matches are timed, this isn't a camping game.  If an area was meant to be accesable there would be a built in ladder would there not? 

Basically like talking to a brick wall let's be honest here.  Nothing but cheaper and cheaper tactics, people pushing the limits on what's allowable and not, bending rules to suite their needs.  None of this matter if it weren't for losing multipliers which are really what we fight for to begin with.  That is if you're competitive, otherwise I guess you just fight to camp and cause draws or win matches by unreachable defaults.

Whatever.  Poorly run system imo.  Mods get angry at statements like this but I'm just giving my honest opinion.  Not attacking you personally Lilith.

[nuffen]

Basically like talking to a brick wall let's be honest here.  Nothing but cheaper and cheaper tactics, people pushing the limits on what's allowable and not, bending rules to suite their needs. 

Whatever.  Poorly run system imo.  Mods get angry at statements like this but I'm just giving my honest opinion.  Not attacking you personally Lilith.

I agree, people are pushing the limits. Thats why I think its important to keep the limits strikt. Thats also why were not allowing people to force other players to break the rules by removing the ladders to put the opponent in an unreachable place.

I do think the devs are working on solutions tho, and trying out stuff. Its just that they're doing this on their spare time, so we gotta be patient.

[Leesin]

Ok I don't agree with all this ladder bullshit enabling roof campers to camp roofs forever, that just promotes stale gameplay, we don't need more stale gameplay when we already have a shit ton of ranged weapons everywhere.

So I will not ever be climbing up a ladder to attack the guys on roof, I will just wait by the wall down below where they can't shoot me until they come down, after all it's them that will be camping and not me.

[Babelfish]

Ok I don't agree with all this ladder bullshit enabling roof campers to camp roofs forever, that just promotes stale gameplay, we don't need more stale gameplay when we already have a shit ton of ranged weapons everywhere.

So I will not ever be climbing up a ladder to attack the guys on roof, I will just wait by the wall down below where they can't shoot me until they come down, after all it's them that will be camping and not me.

Tried that, but got so bored, so i just left battle completely instead. Siege & duels is the place to be =D

[Heroin]

So I will not ever be climbing up a ladder to attack the guys on roof, I will just wait by the wall down below where they can't shoot me until they come down, after all it's them that will be camping and not me.

Tried that, but got so bored, so i just left battle completely instead. Siege & duels is the place to be =D

This is one of the biggest problems I have with the system that Lilith is endorsing. It's boring gameplay if both sides try to wait each other out, and most of the time this happens, they don't fight until the last 30 seconds, often resulting in a draw. Also, many admins will determine that the guy on the ground is the one delaying by not going up the ladder to kill, and kick him to end the round. Bullshit? Yes. But what can you do?

P.S. I don't kick in these scenarios. In my opinion, both people are doing what is tactically sound for them. Furthermore, I'd like to add that Lilith's spin on the rules will have no effect on the rules on the NA servers. Ladders ARE allowed to be destroyed(by anyone, so long as it doesn't cause FF), and people who are the last one's alive in unreachable positions must come down. Period. If Devilize returns from vacation and alters his rule, I will enforce it as written. Until then, the above is my official position.

[Gorath]

Just remove ladders from battle servers.  Period.  They fuck everything up and are simply used as a means to exploit retarded parts of a map which were never meant to be accessed.  This whole rules-lawyering in order to squeeze every last drop of being a fucking douche out of the game without getting banned is rediculous.  Ladders break maps.  Breaking maps is shitty.  Therefore get rid of ladders.  It shouldn't get this damn complicated.

[Zisa]

Hi
A reply from an EU admin.
We have been discussing this situation, and weve agreed that the side whos making the people on the roof unreachable is those to blame. That means if you destroy the ladders of the opposite side so they get unreachable, you might get banned. Thats how were gonna enforce it on EU-side. If they break the rules because of you, YOU are the one whos breaking em.

Words can not describe the utter and complete shite gameplay of not only camping a roof, but getting rule lawyers to prevent any attempt to force squirrels down, who apparently are now protected by the geneva convention.

[Lestos]

heres the thing though i camp roofs often, till there are no more allys on the ground then u come down and fight after all delaying is gay as fuck and if ive lost ive lost but what screwes every thing up is when the douche comes over and kills the ladder so i cant get down even if i wanted to with out dieing. example was playing the 80 man late 2 nights ago dont remember which map but it had a huge ruined arch so i was up on top had left the ladder the other team had 1 shielder and 1 crossbow man who had already hit me 2 times so i was near death then the ladder dies to a 3rd guy then the guy who killed the ladder started a kick vote now the 2 guys who were fighting me actually said they hit 2 because one the shielder could have come up he had a huscarl andit was just me up on the roof not much of a threat and they still had ranged units to shoot me with if they didnt want to come up. result i ended up etting kicked rejoining and a few people on the ladder killers own team getting mad at him. i mean i do understand when uve got alot of ranged up on a roof but when uve got the means to kill them I.E. ranged or good shields they could have gotten me or like i said i would have come down... my last ally had died to the ladder killer and got the ladder before i coulp hop on it and come back down. idk what to think or what should be done just throwing somthing that ahppened in here to be read or ignored and to be thought of as what ever. ill just say this it is one thing to camp up and kill the ladder or expect people to come up after u and another thing to have the campers come down.

this reminds me of the snow map with the one ruin in the middle surrounded by a forest. 4 nights ago had the entire enemy team up on the ruin where the flag spawns and the flag spawn is closer to their spawn so much so that by the time we could even see the tower they had siege sheilds set up ladders set up and every ranged unit up the walls and all they did was camp for the map killing us all off with bows and throwing weps couldnt come near them. after i died i went back and checked the ladders were gone they had killed them to make sure we couldnt get up. along with their clear shot up into the towers. so heres my suggestion dont remove ladders completely justremove the siege ladder and the longer ladders leave the shorter ones so that u can only get up ontop of the really short roofs that way people can only get up ontop of things they can jump down from. and if they still refuse to jump well that would warrent a kick or if repeated a ban. considering that getting down with out a ladder can be done with no damage. i dont know how long the ladders are but maybe just up till the medium or the one before that keep ive never used em so idk how long they are. and yes i know they can still be stacked but that means they would only have 1 wepon slot or less weapon slots in total and if they still did it with small ladders that should warrent a kick for pure douche baggery

[Tears of Destiny]

My suggestion is that we force new mappers to only make maps where every roof as either A an invisible wall or B a way to get there, and do not accept any map that does not fit this criteria.

[Zisa]

I suggest we give melee 'minor globe of invulnerability', which seems about right.