cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Franklin on February 26, 2011, 11:42:38 pm

Title: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Franklin on February 26, 2011, 11:42:38 pm
This is probably me just having a bad hair day, but has anyone else noticed the kills scrolling down the side of their screen.  All it seems to be in the main is 2h weps.

Now I am saying straight from the off that I'm going to emorage about this, but every time I have gone toe to toe with a 2 hander or watched a shielder go against one the 2h seems to be twice as fast, swinging side to side and mowing a path to glory.  Seriously, it seems as though a 2h Hack 'n' Slash is made of paper.
What is worse is the fact that a 2h wep does horrendously justifiable damage and wrecks shields.

Also, is it me or is the balance of troops now shifting to this class because I swear there are shit loads of them these days.  Plus what with archers being so inneffective these walking blenders seem to be able to roam around with impunity untill they meet an enemy lawn mower coming the other way.

Shield wrecking and 1hit kills I can accept but its the weapon speed and the fact that they can still kill at point blank which is beginning to give me a rash.

I am now going to go and take my medication and shut myself in a dark quiet room.  :oops:
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Tears of Destiny on February 26, 2011, 11:46:11 pm
I do agree that they are superior in a duel more times then not, but I think that given they also complain the most about archers (smug look here) it is ok as they are sacrificing protection for more offensive capapbilities. Also, note that 2Hers do not function as well in clusterfights as well as shielders as they have to worry a bit more about swiping team mates (A lot more TKs come from 2Hers being too eager then 1Hers).

So far I am content, for now, on how they perform, as I can plug them easily in a fight with my warbow, unlike shielders.

Give and Take.

My main concern for 2Hers at the moment is that some of the players are complete and utter idiots and forget that when spawning, they can hit TeamMates with their backswing when fooling around (Too many times I get hit by some idiot using an upper attack when he is in front of me two seconds into spawn, almost bad as the idiots who kick when I am shooting and interrupt me. Metz, I am looking at YOU).
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: ManOfWar on February 26, 2011, 11:47:29 pm
most one handers are crappy and do not atack fast enough, there are not many capable one handers
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Leesin on February 27, 2011, 12:14:16 am
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


I think that pretty much sums up my opinion on this subject, having explained it hundreds of times it now hurts to do so.

Sorry if you consider it spam, just felt the need to express myself lol.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Franklin on February 27, 2011, 12:16:43 am
most one handers are crappy and do not atack fast enough, there are not many capable one handers

Pass on that one.
I have seen a 2h hit a shield, the 1h attack only to be one shotted in mid swing because the 2 hander is that fast.  Personally I would have thought that the one handed weapon would out pace and 2h by default if only on the laws of physics. 
There doesnt seem to be a trade off with this weapon class insofar as they get horrendous damage, weapon range and shield smegging special powers at the expence of speed.  It seems a dedicated 2 hander gets all of the snacky super  powers and can swing like they're on combat drugs.

Its just seems to be getting a bit cheesy is all.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Franklin on February 27, 2011, 12:19:59 am
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


I think that pretty much sums up my opinion on this subject, having explained it hundreds of times it now hurts to do so.

Sorry if you consider it spam, just felt the need to express myself lol.

Meh. I'm new to all this and besides, it makes a change from the archery threads.  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Noble Crassius on February 27, 2011, 12:24:31 am
Coming from a 1h/PA hybrid, 2handed spam is not a problem. As I see it all the infantry classes seem pretty balanced right now. I have no problem killing 2handers, maybe the good ones but every one has that problem. I worry more about facing other good shielders than a good 2hander.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Franklin on February 27, 2011, 12:30:54 am
There probably isn't a problem.  I'm just having a piss and a moan because the game tonight seemed full of them.  :mrgreen: 
Plus the battle report scrolling down the side was full of x was 2handed by Y and not much else. 

I would probably have a little whine if the servers were full of archers.............nah! :D
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Tears of Destiny on February 27, 2011, 12:34:16 am
There probably isn't a problem.  I'm just having a piss and a moan because the game tonight seemed full of them.  :mrgreen: 
Plus the battle report scrolling down the side was full of x was 2handed by Y and not much else. 

I would probably have a little whine if the servers were full of archers.............nah! :D

Was RS or Chaos playing? They have a monster player base that hyper specializes on skilled 2Her play.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Franklin on February 27, 2011, 12:40:20 am
Was RS or Chaos playing? They have a monster player base that hyper specializes on skilled 2Her play.
Pass.  I was bimbling on siege and was trying to last more than 30 seconds so my attention was elsewhere.  :D   Maybe it was a game special. Ya know a 2 for 1 2handed weapon night.  All drinks half price.  :mrgreen:

Its funny how when a balanced spread of classes is borked the game becomes as much fun as a dose of the clap.  Maybe a future issue to solve.  :?
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Tears of Destiny on February 27, 2011, 12:43:02 am
Pass.  I was bimbling on siege and was trying to last more than 30 seconds so my attention was elsewhere.  :D   Maybe it was a game special. Ya know a 2 for 1 2handed weapon night.  All drinks half price.  :mrgreen:

Its funny how when a balanced spread of classes is borked the game becomes as much fun as a dose of the clap.  Maybe a future issue to solve.  :?

Now that I agree with, a nice spread of every play style makes it fun!
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Franklin on February 27, 2011, 12:45:20 am
Now that I agree with, a nice spread of every play style makes it fun!

 :mrgreen:

Minor derail of thread.  Just seen add for Bulletstorm.  Me want  :twisted:  looks the mutts nutts and no mistake.  :P
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Kalam on February 27, 2011, 12:48:08 am
Actually, the Fallen Ones server indicates that polearms get the most kills, with two-handed weapons a close second. This is mostly due to reach and damage, as spam rarely ever works on a competent player, and these days, there's never a team composed of complete newbies.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Vexus on February 27, 2011, 01:15:55 am
Actually, the Fallen Ones server indicates that polearms get the most kills, with two-handed weapons a close second. This is mostly due to reach and damage, as spam rarely ever works on a competent player, and these days, there's never a team composed of complete newbies.

Don't forget polearm stun which is nasty on a speedy weapon :D
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Garrus on February 27, 2011, 01:26:19 am
there are some tricks that you have to experience, why would I share it with you ?
It's not an exploit or bug, you muffin.

Listen, do you think, that if you buy a pike, and a sumpter horse is charging you (yes without a rider).
So do you think that your pike will kill the horse ?
NOOO!! I TELL YOU: NO!
You have to kill the wild raging sumpter horse, with your ugly fingers.
Yes, in some culture they think weapon has soul, but in this game it isnt implemented yet.

So. go to eu3 and you are not allowed to leave until you don't find the damned solution against your problem.
omg damn facepalm
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Tears of Destiny on February 27, 2011, 01:34:28 am
there are some tricks that you have to experience, why would I share it with you ?
It's not an exploit or bug, you muffin.

Listen, do you think, that if you buy a pike, and a sumpter horse is charging you (yes without a rider).
So do you think that your pike will kill the horse ?
NOOO!! I TELL YOU: NO!
You have to kill the wild raging sumpter horse, with your ugly fingers.
Yes, in some culture they think weapon has soul, but in this game it isnt implemented yet.

So. go to eu3 and you are not allowed to leave until you don't find the damned solution against your problem.
omg damn facepalm

What?
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Memento_Mori on February 27, 2011, 02:13:41 am
I think what Garrus means is to go on a C-rpg server and practice against 2 handers until you can beat them.
It can be done, I'm a 2h myself and one of my greatest fears is 1 handers who know how to counter me.... & there is becoming an abundance of them as of late so it can't be that hard or maybe I suck and should start a thread myself. xD
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Leesin on February 27, 2011, 02:49:05 am
Actually, the Fallen Ones server indicates that polearms get the most kills, with two-handed weapons a close second. This is mostly due to reach and damage, as spam rarely ever works on a competent player, and these days, there's never a team composed of complete newbies.

Polearms is no where near as 'reachy' as you'd imagine. You automatically take away 20 of the weapon length for the way the polearm is held. The bonuses you get on your reach for each different swing are also less than 2h, well most of them I know are, a 2h weapon gets something stupid like +80 reach on a thrust, this means the longer 2h swords for instance can outrange alot of polearms when used correctly, most of the popular polearms beside pike are the majority of the ones that can be outranged by 2hers.

I'd just put it down to the better players on there using polearms, or maybe just co-incidental that alot of people use polearms on there.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Xant on February 27, 2011, 02:56:03 am
The old thrust got +80, new one doesn't. New one is outranged by stuff like GLB, GLA(i think), LHB etc.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Patricia on February 27, 2011, 03:29:10 am
The old thrust got +80, new one doesn't. New one is outranged by stuff like GLB, GLA(i think), LHB etc.

Not GLA, GLA is shorter than your regular 2 handed swords, and that's before the reach reduction from polearm grip.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: zagibu on February 27, 2011, 03:29:59 am
Not outranged by great long axe, certainly. And only baaaarely by great long bardiche.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: bruce on February 27, 2011, 04:08:34 am
I don't know, I play as a shielder and frankly it's the throwers which worry me the most, second being archers. Then again, I use a heather shield with 5 shield skill which means not only throwers break it quite fast but archers shoot you from the slightest angle. The 2hs which worry me are the really good blockers, but eh, they deserve to win.

Most of the part about fighting a twohander is knowing how to attack in the first place, I see many shielders die in a, well, stupid way, counterattacking with the wrong swing, falling to feintspam, etc.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Madcat on February 27, 2011, 04:28:06 am
Pass on that one.
I have seen a 2h hit a shield, the 1h attack only to be one shotted in mid swing because the 2 hander is that fast.  Personally I would have thought that the one handed weapon would out pace and 2h by default if only on the laws of physics. 
There doesnt seem to be a trade off with this weapon class insofar as they get horrendous damage, weapon range and shield smegging special powers at the expence of speed.  It seems a dedicated 2 hander gets all of the snacky super  powers and can swing like they're on combat drugs.

Its just seems to be getting a bit cheesy is all.


I've never been able to out swing a shielder continually who knows what he's doing.
On the times I do manage to attack twice before he can attack once, it is because of luck on my side or incompetence from the other player.

I also agree with what the first replier said, about how two handed weapon should have an offensive advantage considering all the hazards that come with it.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Teeth on February 27, 2011, 06:57:15 pm
The old thrust got +80, new one doesn't. New one is outranged by stuff like GLB, GLA(i think), LHB etc.
The stabs outrange my long hafted blade too
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Furax on February 27, 2011, 07:10:39 pm
I was under the impression that the range of weapons were the actual effective range? Havent experienced anything to the contrary yet. For example the war spear=150 range, never had a 2h sword outrach its stab(not even flameberge, allthough it could).
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Punisher on February 27, 2011, 07:13:34 pm
The stabs outrange my long hafted blade too

You do realise the only advantage 2h have over polearms is the better stab animation? Otherwise polearms are faster, longer, more damage, cheaper and have stun.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: cmp on February 27, 2011, 07:16:16 pm
I was under the impression that the range of weapons were the actual effective range? Havent experienced anything to the contrary yet. For example the war spear=150 range, never had a 2h sword outrach its stab(not even flameberge, allthough it could).

That's not range, it's model length. Range depends on model length and animations.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Trippin on February 27, 2011, 09:05:56 pm
there are some tricks that you have to experience, why would I share it with you ?
It's not an exploit or bug, you muffin.

Listen, do you think, that if you buy a pike, and a sumpter horse is charging you (yes without a rider).
So do you think that your pike will kill the horse ?
NOOO!! I TELL YOU: NO!
You have to kill the wild raging sumpter horse, with your ugly fingers.
Yes, in some culture they think weapon has soul, but in this game it isnt implemented yet.

So. go to eu3 and you are not allowed to leave until you don't find the damned solution against your problem.
omg damn facepalm

What the fuck am I reading?



Anyway, there are plenty of decent 1h/shield players. Takeda (I forgot the rest of his name), and some other dude whose name starts with a B are pretty damn good and use 1h/shield.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Teeth on February 27, 2011, 09:33:20 pm
You do realise the only advantage 2h have over polearms is the better stab animation? Otherwise polearms are faster, longer, more damage, cheaper and have stun.
Last generation I played with a katana and I have never noticed stun. What is that polearm stun and why have I never had a problem with it?
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Punisher on February 27, 2011, 09:36:15 pm
Last generation I played with a katana and I have never noticed stun. What is that polearm stun and why have I never had a problem with it?

If you get hit you can't strike back unless you block twice in a row. Not all polearms have it though, Long Hafted Blade has it for example.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Fraemi on February 27, 2011, 09:46:58 pm
Regarding stun:

There is a "weight vs weight" weapon stun. Say - charged (chambered/held/you name it) greatsword  strikes a side sword. There is added delay to the side sword wielder after he blocks, he cant counter attack and MUST block twice unless he massively out manouvers the other guy. In general this applies only to charged attacks and only in situations where a heavier wep strikes a lighter one. Polearms in general are a bit heavier than 2hers so they can use this more. I could be wrong but unless the weight difference is huge this sort of stun applies only on charged overheads. This is a stun only in the way that you must not counterattack immediately after 1st strike.

And then there is polearm stun. When a polearm strikes you with enough dmg - you get a short "staggering" animation during which you can do NOTHING at all. With enough speed you can get in a second guaranteed hit (in native this is possible with spears, in crpg with several weps (depending on build ofc)). This is incredibly annoying in team fights and quite so as well in duel type situations since your opponent can manouver to a favourable position for him.
Not to mention knockdown that hafted spiked mace has - sure kill on all but super heavies.

These are the conclusions I have come to from playing on siege, duels and battle in that order, if Im wrong Id value input.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Xant on February 27, 2011, 11:50:43 pm
If you get hit you can't strike back unless you block twice in a row. Not all polearms have it though, Long Hafted Blade has it for example.

That's not it. It's when you get hit and can't /block/ so the polearm user gets another hit for free.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: [ptx] on February 27, 2011, 11:57:20 pm
there are some tricks that you have to experience, why would I share it with you ?
It's not an exploit or bug, you muffin.

Listen, do you think, that if you buy a pike, and a sumpter horse is charging you (yes without a rider).
So do you think that your pike will kill the horse ?
NOOO!! I TELL YOU: NO!
You have to kill the wild raging sumpter horse, with your ugly fingers.
Yes, in some culture they think weapon has soul, but in this game it isnt implemented yet.

So. go to eu3 and you are not allowed to leave until you don't find the damned solution against your problem.
omg damn facepalm
inb4 more wtf posts.
My take on the meaning of this is that it is the player (your ugly fingers), not the weapon (pike), that makes the kill.

Also, yeh. And, whilst a shielder might not be the easiest class to play in cRPG (unlike native), it is still perfectly competitive.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Kafein on February 28, 2011, 12:29:38 am
You do realise the only advantage 2h have over polearms is the better stab animation? Otherwise polearms are faster way slower, longer shorter, more usually same or less damage, cheaper and have stun.

And I forgot to mention that many polearms have only two attack directions. And that any four-attack polearm is much slower than its 2h counterpart, due to differences in speed ratings and more importantly left swing animation. The only "fast" polearm is the awlpike used with two hands. Only two directions, and extremely short.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Xant on February 28, 2011, 01:10:08 am
Polearms actually have crazy good/fast swing animations...
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Franklin on February 28, 2011, 10:47:17 am
Regarding stun:

There is a "weight vs weight" weapon stun. Say - charged (chambered/held/you name it) greatsword  strikes a side sword. There is added delay to the side sword wielder after he blocks, he cant counter attack and MUST block twice unless he massively out manouvers the other guy. In general this applies only to charged attacks and only in situations where a heavier wep strikes a lighter one. Polearms in general are a bit heavier than 2hers so they can use this more. I could be wrong but unless the weight difference is huge this sort of stun applies only on charged overheads. This is a stun only in the way that you must not counterattack immediately after 1st strike.

And then there is polearm stun. When a polearm strikes you with enough dmg - you get a short "staggering" animation during which you can do NOTHING at all. With enough speed you can get in a second guaranteed hit (in native this is possible with spears, in crpg with several weps (depending on build ofc)). This is incredibly annoying in team fights and quite so as well in duel type situations since your opponent can manouver to a favourable position for him.
Not to mention knockdown that hafted spiked mace has - sure kill on all but super heavies.

These are the conclusions I have come to from playing on siege, duels and battle in that order, if Im wrong Id value input.

This is a great piece of info for a new player like myself, not to mention it explains alot about how 2 handers manage to wade through a load of people before going down.

Went into a scrap with this in mind last night and managed to lead a 2 hander a merry dance before going down.  Even managed to land a few paper cuts myself for a change :)

Thanks for that.  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Siiem on February 28, 2011, 12:37:31 pm
That is new to you... but yet you make topics about it. You should be muted.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Franklin on February 28, 2011, 01:34:35 pm
That is new to you... but yet you make topics about it. You should be muted.

I was unaware of 'charged' attacks and that they had to be blocked twice otherwise you would get sliced and diced.
It goes a long way to explaining how they always seemed to get a second strike in even though I was in mid swing and why they always approach with weapon raised to strike.

As to your comment I bow my head in shame to an uberl33t gaming god as yourself and will diligently aspire to improve my psychic powers so that in the future when I buy a new game I shall know all there is to know before I even install it.  :oops:
I Long for the day that I am your equal and can look down on the lower lifeforms that infest the digital highways and will take pleasure in matching you at spouting vacuous bile for no logical reason other than hate and spite.
Untill then I hope that you and similar solipsists live in interesting times.  :twisted:
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Siiem on February 28, 2011, 01:48:55 pm
There is a difference in asking for advice and making a thread called "2h spam" especially if you do not know the mechanics of a certain game. Think about that.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Tears of Destiny on February 28, 2011, 05:45:03 pm
There is a difference in asking for advice and making a thread called "2h spam" especially if you do not know the mechanics of a certain game. Think about that.

I think most people do not know the mechanics of those game unless it concerns their primary build.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Dexxtaa on February 28, 2011, 05:49:21 pm
I think most people do not know the mechanics of those game unless it concerns their primary build.

I know all about archery.

Observe;

ratatatatatatatatatat
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Fraemi on February 28, 2011, 05:54:41 pm
I think most people do not know the mechanics of those game unless it concerns their primary build.

This would hold true if people had never played native. Apart from some nuances things are very similar gameplay wise.
This obviously doesnt include theorycrafting which imo is no guarantee of skill.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Kafein on February 28, 2011, 06:14:26 pm
It's funny how every helicopter-oriented chars come here to say "2handers are slow as fuck, shuttup you nub".

Xant
Siiem
Punisher
...
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Torp on February 28, 2011, 06:19:31 pm
It's funny how every helicopter-oriented chars come here to say "2handers are slow as fuck, shuttup you nub".

Xant
Siiem
Punisher
...

funny thing - 2H's are actually quite slow and spam is only possible vs. bad players. I say a nice quote once:
"spam happens because you don't attack back, have a faulty build or just plain suck."

think phyrex said it? anyways, people should listen to it
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Xant on February 28, 2011, 06:23:57 pm
It's funny how every helicopter-oriented chars come here to say "2handers are slow as fuck, shuttup you nub".

Xant
Siiem
Punisher
...

Wat? I was only saying that polearms have a good swing animation/speed.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Punisher on February 28, 2011, 06:46:27 pm
It's funny how every helicopter-oriented chars come here to say "2handers are slow as fuck, shuttup you nub".

Xant
Siiem
Punisher
...

Actually I am 2 mil xp away from retireing to polearms because I feel it's a pity not to use OP weapons if given the chance.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: krampe on February 28, 2011, 08:11:13 pm
Gonna go polearm /2h hybrid next gen aswell, but only because i miss my pony :(
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Gurnisson on February 28, 2011, 08:12:55 pm
Actually I am 2 mil xp away from retireing to polearms because I feel it's a pity not to use OP weapons if given the chance.

You're going to regret that. 2H > Polearm.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Siiem on February 28, 2011, 08:15:34 pm
You're going to regret that. 2H > Polearm.

It's not a bad decision really, more turtles these days and poleaxes have bonus vs shields.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Franklin on February 28, 2011, 08:57:28 pm
There is a difference in asking for advice and making a thread called "2h spam" especially if you do not know the mechanics of a certain game. Think about that.

Arrgh, my lord pray forgive me for such poor use of the English language.  I had attempted a light humoured post with myself as the ignorant rube with no intention other than to talk about 2handers and the pace that they can master with their huge choppers.  Please forgive me master I will take myself away and have my gussets bludgeoned with a gusset bludgeoning cudgel before the setting of the sun. 

But before I go my lord I must express concern about these losses of patience which seem ever on the increases these days and vex you so.  Such shortness cannot benefit socialy to say the least. 

I must confess that I have conversed today with Ramone, your personal interior designer about such stresses on my spirit with regards to your welfare.  I met him in your conservatory, reclining on a red inflatable sofa in his usual lime green mankini and sucking on a banana.  Why he has to eat them that way is beyond me and I find it a little disturbing.  Can't say why though.  The platted chest hair is not to my taste either.

Anyway I digress.

I expressed my concerns to him about these changes to your once cheerful and ebullient personality and sited that story you regaled me with one drunken night.  It was the time that you were abducted by an alien who probed you in a variety of horrendous ways before leaving you battered and bruised on the doorstep.
My concern also went so far as to bring up the incident in the Snappy Snaps on the high street and that time with the web cam.
With his fine, smooth italian accent Ramone (which makes me feel strange in a moist way), informed me that my worries though valid they were off track somewhat.
Apparently, and this is news to me, you weren't abducted by an alien, it was Allen from Snugfit Screws & Nuts Ltd.
The incident that I attributed to a mental breakdown, the one where you stood in the middle of Snappy Snaps wearing a gimp mask, a Hello Kitty tshirt, with a Daffodil sticking out your arse, singing Danny Boy in the style of the Chipmunks, was apparently down to a cough syrup bender because you lost at patience. 
As for the webcam incident, the less said about the industrial sized  tub of Swarfega and a Corgi called Roy the better.

My heart is broken that you have suffered so.

Ramone informs me that the reason for such a change is because you have a small penis.  I interrupted him at this juncture to point out that your manly, masculine proportions meant that the only way to see your Johnson would be with a cunning array of mirrors and that it was unlikely that you personally had seen it in the last decade let alone touched it as human arms can't grow that long.  I must confess that I have always aspired to emulate your manliness and one day I too will reach the magic ton.  I should of asked him how he knew.

Anyway, Ramone delighted me and raised my spirits by saying that he hopes to involve you in American football and that he and his associates hope you will be accommodating and become a wide receiver that they can all enjoy.   I never knew you were interested in sports.
As to your small parts I did put forward that maybe a companion of a scale to fit would be suitable.  Maybe someone from The Lord of the Rings.  Unfortunately neither of us had a clue as to how we could contact Smeagol.
Anyway as a final note please be aware that I would never do anything to deliberately vex you and I will henceforth refrain from posting anything remotely controversial.  I shall stick to fluffy subjects from now on.

Before I sign off on this email to you, I will come to see you in the cellar in about an hour to empty your potty and sterilize/moisturise your bedsores.  I will also check out that urine burn you are getting in your nethers.  The doctor says to sponge you down more frequently and to use a stronger alkali.  I'll make sure to bring some bleach.
Do you want your usual 10 buckets of chicken parts and 16 gallons of coke.

Your devoted servant W. Smithers

P.S.  Ramone says he will be around later to do some stretching exercises.  Remind me to ask him if he has any idea as to what has been gnawing at your bed linen and pillows.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Siiem on February 28, 2011, 09:02:48 pm
I apploud your ability to make long useless posts. I prefer short but to the point useless posts.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Franklin on February 28, 2011, 09:08:29 pm
I apploud your ability to make long useless posts. I prefer short but to the point useless posts.

Whats an apploud?  Does it require 2 hands my lord and do you require lubricant.  I do hope these applouds are useful to your stretching exercises.  I shall text Ramone and get him to purchase you a bakers dozen.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: DrKronic on February 28, 2011, 09:19:50 pm
 :shock: flametextwallofdoomOMG :shock:

Melee is balanced, if u want help with builds/weapons  to make one hand work ze best pm me

Same goes for any class I don't like giving build info in posts but am always willing to help any nooblets in search of power




Arrgh, my lord pray forgive me for such poor use of the English language.  I had attempted a light humoured post with myself as the ignorant rube with no intention other than to talk about 2handers and the pace that they can master with their huge choppers.  Please forgive me master I will take myself away and have my gussets bludgeoned with a gusset bludgeoning cudgel before the setting of the sun. 

But before I go my lord I must express concern about these losses of patience which seem ever on the increases these days and vex you so.  Such shortness cannot benefit socialy to say the least. 

I must confess that I have conversed today with Ramone, your personal interior designer about such stresses on my spirit with regards to your welfare.  I met him in your conservatory, reclining on a red inflatable sofa in his usual lime green mankini and sucking on a banana.  Why he has to eat them that way is beyond me and I find it a little disturbing.  Can't say why though.  The platted chest hair is not to my taste either.

Anyway I digress.

I expressed my concerns to him about these changes to your once cheerful and ebullient personality and sited that story you regaled me with one drunken night.  It was the time that you were abducted by an alien who probed you in a variety of horrendous ways before leaving you battered and bruised on the doorstep.
My concern also went so far as to bring up the incident in the Snappy Snaps on the high street and that time with the web cam.
With his fine, smooth italian accent Ramone (which makes me feel strange in a moist way), informed me that my worries though valid they were off track somewhat.
Apparently, and this is news to me, you weren't abducted by an alien, it was Allen from Snugfit Screws & Nuts Ltd.
The incident that I attributed to a mental breakdown, the one where you stood in the middle of Snappy Snaps wearing a gimp mask, a Hello Kitty tshirt, with a Daffodil sticking out your arse, singing Danny Boy in the style of the Chipmunks, was apparently down to a cough syrup bender because you lost at patience. 
As for the webcam incident, the less said about the industrial sized  tub of Swarfega and a Corgi called Roy the better.

My heart is broken that you have suffered so.

Ramone informs me that the reason for such a change is because you have a small penis.  I interrupted him at this juncture to point out that your manly, masculine proportions meant that the only way to see your Johnson would be with a cunning array of mirrors and that it was unlikely that you personally had seen it in the last decade let alone touched it as human arms can't grow that long.  I must confess that I have always aspired to emulate your manliness and one day I too will reach the magic ton.  I should of asked him how he knew.

Anyway, Ramone delighted me and raised my spirits by saying that he hopes to involve you in American football and that he and his associates hope you will be accommodating and become a wide receiver that they can all enjoy.   I never knew you were interested in sports.
As to your small parts I did put forward that maybe a companion of a scale to fit would be suitable.  Maybe someone from The Lord of the Rings.  Unfortunately neither of us had a clue as to how we could contact Smeagol.
Anyway as a final note please be aware that I would never do anything to deliberately vex you and I will henceforth refrain from posting anything remotely controversial.  I shall stick to fluffy subjects from now on.

Before I sign off on this email to you, I will come to see you in the cellar in about an hour to empty your potty and sterilize/moisturise your bedsores.  I will also check out that urine burn you are getting in your nethers.  The doctor says to sponge you down more frequently and to use a stronger alkali.  I'll make sure to bring some bleach.
Do you want your usual 10 buckets of chicken parts and 16 gallons of coke.

Your devoted servant W. Smithers

P.S.  Ramone says he will be around later to do some stretching exercises.  Remind me to ask him if he has any idea as to what has been gnawing at your bed linen and pillows.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Nemeth on February 28, 2011, 09:21:56 pm
tl;dr - ?
Are we flaming Siiem now? I wish to participate.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Fraemi on February 28, 2011, 09:22:04 pm
(click to show/hide)

I found this incredibly amusing, I will be giving you awesome points every time from now on whenever I remember to do so.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Franklin on March 01, 2011, 08:40:31 am
I found this incredibly amusing, I will be giving you awesome points every time from now on whenever I remember to do so.

Why thank you sir *doffs cap and bows*  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Templar_Ratigan on March 01, 2011, 12:08:18 pm
Two handers were king of the roost since the very first version of Crpg. The only time they ever struggled was during the archer revolution.

They still top the scoreboards and they still complain more than any other style of player.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Konrax on March 01, 2011, 03:00:25 pm
I had a 20 page thread before the patch about 2h spam.

It still exists, and given the arguments I faced on my thread regarding this subject, most 2h players who won't admit it are usually players who use the most over powered weapons.

Yes I can manual block, yes I do play a 1h fighter, yes I have very high wpf and a fast weapon but still get hit mid swing very often.

Certain weapons like the Long Hafted Spiked mace and other weapons of that type for example combined with the polearm stun and their speed and their range make them far superiour weapons over any 1h weapon you can select.

2h players can also put points into shield, then use said shield to protect themselves from ranged weapons.

Honestly myself and many other players agreed that 1h should have a clear speed advantage over 2h and polearm type weapons but I can see that it is MARGINAL at best. Before many of you 2h players start ranting about that comment, please be aware that you have: Superiour animations, longer range, better speed, and significantly more damage.

1h players get: a shield usable in combat which can be broken or completely bypassed.

Hence why you see most 1h players going for fast weapons to at least get a bit of a speed edge over their enemies, like the side sword and elite scimitar for example since those weapons and a handful of others are really the only viable weapon choices for 1h players.

Just as many of the polearm users say about horses (If you have a problem get a pike) but with shields I would just say get an axe and break their shield.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Furax on March 01, 2011, 03:05:19 pm
Shouldent theese posts go into the spam forum?(no pun intended)
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Xant on March 01, 2011, 03:06:14 pm
Honestly myself and many other players agreed that 1h should have a clear speed advantage over 2h and polearm type weapons but I can see that it is MARGINAL at best. Before many of you 2h players start ranting about that comment, please be aware that you have: Superiour animations, longer range, better speed, and significantly more damage.

Honestly myself and many other (2h) players agreed that 2h should have a clear speed advantage over 1h and polearm type weapons but I can see that it is MARGINAL at best. Before many of you 1h players start ranting about this comment, please be aware that you have: superior animations, don't have to manual block = protection from ranged, melee and pikes(RANGEMELEE), better speed and just a tiny bit less damage for all this.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Torp on March 01, 2011, 03:13:37 pm
Honestly myself and many other (2h) players agreed that 2h should have a clear speed advantage over 1h and polearm type weapons but I can see that it is MARGINAL at best. Before many of you 1h players start ranting about this comment, please be aware that you have: superior animations, don't have to manual block = protection from ranged, melee and pikes(RANGEMELEE), better speed and just a tiny bit less damage for all this.

can also block attacks from multiple directions at the same time (which is probably one of the most important advantages of a shields)
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Konrax on March 01, 2011, 03:15:01 pm
Weapon weight differences allow for you to strike back well before a 1h could after you manual block once. If it takes more then 1 swing to die then you have several chances to block once and get a clear chance for attack usually well before a shield can be raised.

Given this information manual blocking also has a clear advantage over shield blocking as well making 2h weapons superiour in every single way. Although shields can block in all directions manual blocking has an advantage in blocking as well making it balanced based on skill.

Congratulations.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Punisher on March 01, 2011, 03:19:28 pm
Also 1h animations are the hardest to manual block.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Hirlok on March 01, 2011, 03:26:34 pm
I just laughed my ass off yesterday in a siege where I saw all those 2H heroes walking up a ramp like lemmings while there was a considerable shitstorm of arrows and throwing stuff coming down. None of them reached the end of the ramp in a respectable state (I did behind my shield, but of course had no chance against the monsters waiting there). And none of them could overcome their pride and pick up a shield. Just one of the disadvantages that come with the usual 2H mindset.

So: I do not care.

Yes, some of the 2H have definitely too much speed and too low strength requirements (go to a museum and ask nicely if you can hold that 2h sword for a minute in your hands...), but let them have their fun.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Konrax on March 01, 2011, 03:30:11 pm
I don't know why my awesome bar is taking such a huge hit when I am just stating game mechanics.

Given what many of you said earlier "learn the mechanics of the game before you comment" yet I seem to be penalized by the very same 2h trolls who made this comment.

This just proves my point earlier and the one that others made about the psychological standing of many of these players being internet epeen troll flexors.

There now you HAVE a reason to reduce my awesome bar.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Torp on March 01, 2011, 03:32:20 pm
I don't know why my awesome bar is taking such a huge hit when I am just stating game mechanics.

Given what many of you said earlier "learn the mechanics of the game before you comment" yet I seem to be penalized by the very same 2h trolls who made this comment.

This just proves my point earlier and the one that others made about the psychological standing of many of these players being internet epeen troll flexors.

There now you HAVE a reason to reduce my awesome bar.

people havent really been  saying alot about game mechanics, have they? maybe a little about animations, but...
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Xant on March 01, 2011, 03:42:40 pm
Weapon weight differences allow for you to strike back well before a 1h could after you manual block once. If it takes more then 1 swing to die then you have several chances to block once and get a clear chance for attack usually well before a shield can be raised.

Given this information manual blocking also has a clear advantage over shield blocking as well making 2h weapons superiour in every single way. Although shields can block in all directions manual blocking has an advantage in blocking as well making it balanced based on skill.

Congratulations.

You're not stating game mechanism, you're stating your own noobishness. The only time weapon weight difference comes into play is the first strike in a duel if you're 1h and don't have a shield vs a 2hander. So you just block twice in a row, then it's back to youblock-heblocks-youblock-etc. So what the hell are you talking about in the first paragraph?

Lemme get this straight. Manual blocking has an advantage in blocking because it has an advantage in blocking.. gotcha, flawless argumentation.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: [ptx] on March 01, 2011, 03:45:07 pm
Blocking is less than half of melee, you have to know how and when to attack as well. Failing to do so results in you getting hit when trying to counterattack. Don't blame the game for your own shortcomings.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Furax on March 01, 2011, 04:11:49 pm
Blocking is less than half of melee, you have to know how and when to attack as well. Failing to do so results in you getting hit when trying to counterattack. Don't blame the game for your own shortcomings.

Indeed, was just on a server with 70wpf in 1h and wielding a shield, a katana user tried to outspam me, but shocker, I killed him with 2 overheads strike in a row after he hit my shield once.(used 96 speed weapon which is one of the "slower" 1handers)
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: EponiCo on March 01, 2011, 04:13:48 pm
You're not stating game mechanism, you're stating your own noobishness. The only time weapon weight difference comes into play is the first strike in a duel if you're 1h and don't have a shield vs a 2hander. So you just block twice in a row, then it's back to youblock-heblocks-youblock-etc. So what the hell are you talking about in the first paragraph?

Lemme get this straight. Manual blocking has an advantage in blocking because it has an advantage in blocking.. gotcha, flawless argumentation.

You are wrong, stun can happen in the middle of fights.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Xant on March 01, 2011, 04:16:32 pm
Yes, it happens to all weapons.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Konrax on March 01, 2011, 05:06:40 pm
I was saying manual blocking has its advantages...

Just like blocking with a shield has advantages...

Right?
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Siiem on March 01, 2011, 09:15:05 pm
I was saying manual blocking has its advantages...

Just like blocking with a shield has advantages...

Right?

No not right, shield can block 4 different swing directions and projectiles at once, by just holding rmb. And if there is a shield breaking weapon incoming you can allways flick the shield on your back for extra armour and manual block the scary shield crushing weapon. It's unparralled when it comes to convenience and if you don't mind beeing slow you can allways bring more then 1. In the end a shield is pure luxury over manual block.

However this has nothing to do with personal preferance. I like to manual block so I choose a weapon that gives me extra damage and length.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Raskolnikov on March 02, 2011, 04:19:27 pm
And none of them could overcome their pride and pick up a shield. Just one of the disadvantages that come with the usual 2H mindset.


:D

I have an aversion (though I'm not a complete fool - I'm well aware that I'm being ridiculous!) to carrying shields, and I know that it is likely pride resulting from a (slightly affected, comical) loathing of shielders, heh.

So, yes, that's me. Though, not in your siege example, no. You wouldn't catch me walking up a ramp into a hail of arrows and throwing weapons. Better to stand at the bottom, chastising the shielders for not doing their job while using my lack of shield as an excuse for not joining the assault.

Ah, the two-handed life is a good life, heh. :D
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Konrax on March 02, 2011, 08:08:49 pm
No not right, shield can block 4 different swing directions and projectiles at once, by just holding rmb. And if there is a shield breaking weapon incoming you can allways flick the shield on your back for extra armour and manual block the scary shield crushing weapon. It's unparralled when it comes to convenience and if you don't mind beeing slow you can allways bring more then 1. In the end a shield is pure luxury over manual block.

However this has nothing to do with personal preferance. I like to manual block so I choose a weapon that gives me extra damage and length.

Lol so manual blocking has no advantages over shield at all right?

Like your manual blocks never break, stun timer for blocking lighter weapons, faster block speed compared to most shields (you can parry very quickly during a fight)

Don't get me wrong, I use a shield but I also can use a 2h weapon very well and a more than capable manual blocker but I know for a fact there are advantages to both types of defense.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Xant on March 02, 2011, 10:02:31 pm
SURE YOU CAN USE THEM VERY WELL SIR.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Torp on March 02, 2011, 10:07:18 pm
Lol so manual blocking has no advantages over shield at all right?

Like your manual blocks never break, stun timer for blocking lighter weapons, faster block speed compared to most shields (you can parry very quickly during a fight)

Don't get me wrong, I use a shield but I also can use a 2h weapon very well and a more than capable manual blocker but I know for a fact there are advantages to both types of defense.

the difference is, that with 1h+shield you get to chose - in situations where manual block is better (vs shieldbreakers) you can just manual block, and then you can use shield the rest of the time.

2Hs and polearms dont have a choice
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Gorath on March 02, 2011, 11:27:23 pm
the difference is, that with 1h+shield you get to chose - in situations where manual block is better (vs shieldbreakers) you can just manual block, and then you can use shield the rest of the time.

2Hs and polearms dont have a choice

lol Yes they do.

Oh noes an archer is shooting at me, a shield might be handy here... *equips shield and proceeds to rape archer with longsword used 1h'd*
Damn, this shield isn't going to be much help vs that lolaxe *puts shield on back and rapes lolaxer with longsword*

Omg, my teammates need help but there's a thrower in there, wut do  *equips shield and hoplite stabs the thrower with awlpike*
Damn, that guy knows how to block down *puts shield on back and speed rapes with lawlpike*
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: MountedRhader on March 02, 2011, 11:32:33 pm
without reading I am just going to say that I'm a 1hand with no shield and usually I easily kill 2hand even as lvl 29. Like throwing, there are too many of them though.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Mattressi on March 03, 2011, 01:51:19 am
lol Yes they do.

Oh noes an archer is shooting at me, a shield might be handy here... *equips shield and proceeds to rape archer with longsword used 1h'd*
Damn, this shield isn't going to be much help vs that lolaxe *puts shield on back and rapes lolaxer with longsword*

Omg, my teammates need help but there's a thrower in there, wut do  *equips shield and hoplite stabs the thrower with awlpike*
Damn, that guy knows how to block down *puts shield on back and speed rapes with lawlpike*

I find it difficult to believe you've ever even played a 2H.

A shield is near useless against a half-decent archer - even my level 20 archer can easily shoot a 2H in the feet from long distance. Unless you're saying 2H have the option of putting many points into shield, making them have the same stats as a 1h, but without the ability to use a sword and shield at the same time. And seriously, using a longsword with a shield to kill an archer!? I know most of the players on NA suck balls (even with a ping of 250+ I can maintain a positive K/D ratio when I play on an NA server), but I seriously can't believe that archers are so crap at melee that they would be able to beat someone using a sword with a 30% speed reduction (and, of course, no 1H WPF).

As for shielding against a thrower: what shield skill do your 2H characters have?? I ended up putting 1 into mine just so it would be a little harder for archers to shoot my feet (still happens a lot though), but it takes 2 axes/javs maximum to break my shield. Then I'm in the open with throwing spam headed my way. My own thrower destroys any 2Hers shields in 1 hit (I've got 10 PT). Then I kill proceed to kill them (even a tin can with high IF) in two shots with my heavy axes.

I've given up using my shield against all but the worst of throwers and archers; and even then I'll only bother if there's only a few of them on the other team, otherwise I'll just have a broken shield in a few seconds.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Gorath on March 03, 2011, 02:07:03 am
I find it difficult to believe you've ever even played a 2H.
You obviously don't play on the NA servers at all, but that's ok we can keep making pointless assumptions.
A shield is near useless against a half-decent archer
So you're saying shielders need a buff?  Or archers need a nerf?
And seriously, using a longsword with a shield to kill an archer!? I know most of the players on NA suck balls (even with a ping of 250+ I can maintain a positive K/D ratio when I play on an NA server), but I seriously can't believe that archers are so crap at melee that they would be able to beat someone using a sword with a 30% speed reduction (and, of course, no 1H WPF).
If they keep the bow out the 30% malus doesn't matter, you stab, they can't block, they die.  They put the bow away for a melee weapon, you put the shield away because you're not facing ranged anymore.  These are simple concepts.   :wink:

As for shielding against a thrower: what shield skill do your 2H characters have??
Usually none.  I accept that 2hers are supposed to be weak vs ranged spam, however I do have a rank 0 shield for advancing when I'm too lazy to use cover or juke at all (which isn't often).  It gets me from point A to B just fine, B being in melee range of the ranged guy I want to kill.  You don't just walk in a straight line with the shield raised the whole time you're advancing just because you have a shield on do you?  I hope not.
I ended up putting 1 into mine just so it would be a little harder for archers to shoot my feet (still happens a lot though), but it takes 2 axes/javs maximum to break my shield. Then I'm in the open with throwing spam headed my way. My own thrower destroys any 2Hers shields in 1 hit (I've got 10 PT). Then I kill proceed to kill them (even a tin can with high IF) in two shots with my heavy axes. 
So again is it buff shielders, or nerf throwing/ranged?

I've given up using my shield against all but the worst of throwers and archers; and even then I'll only bother if there's only a few of them on the other team, otherwise I'll just have a broken shield in a few seconds.
So you made a concious decision to give up protection vs ranged.  Good for you.  I do the same as well most of the time on my 2hers and polearm toons.  However just because you choose not to use it, doesn't mean the capability doesn't exist.  Big difference.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Xant on March 03, 2011, 02:10:07 am
Mattressi's talking about the low-shield-skill shields being useless.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Nemeth on March 03, 2011, 02:13:12 am
Which is, btw, true.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Gorath on March 03, 2011, 02:14:14 am
Mattressi's talking about the low-shield-skill shields being useless.

They'll stop an arrow or two, for no skill investment.  Otherwise put 1 point into shield skill and carry:
Nordic Shield
1064
weight 3.5
requirement 1
hit points 240
body armor 5
spd rtng 100
shield width 34

Or

Old Board Shield
600
weight 4.5
requirement 1
hit points 200
body armor 1
spd rtng 89
shield width 26
shield height 60
Can't use on horseback

That's at least 200 hp worth of protection for 1 point invested.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Xant on March 03, 2011, 02:16:07 am
They'll sometimes stop an arrow. Against good archers, the arrows just go through.

So you can't just look at the HP.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Nemeth on March 03, 2011, 02:17:41 am
While board shields have enough HP, the problem is still the force field. With 1 point in shield, I can still shoot your legs, even though your board shield is covering them, as the force field is just not big enough. Works for every other bigger shield as well.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Mattressi on March 03, 2011, 02:41:52 am
Bloody hell, tell me you aren't like this in real life. The amount of logical fallacies and arrogance are amazing.

You obviously don't play on the NA servers at all, but that's ok we can keep making pointless assumptions.

Yep, that's exactly what I did. I assumed you've never played a 2H, despite you saying previously that you do and despite having seen you on NA once (I only play on NA if it's late at night an no ones on Aus, so not very often) as a 2H [note: this is sarcasm]. Never mind that I said that "I find it difficult to believe you've ever even played a 2H" (implying that I am astounded that you would make such statements despite having played a 2H) and not "I don't believe you've ever played a 2H". But yes, let's continue making pointless assumptions  :rolleyes:

So you're saying shielders need a buff?  Or archers need a nerf?

Sorry, I'll try to make my posts clearer for you. A shield with a requirement of 0 or 1 (and with a character with 0 or 1 shield skill) is near useless against an archer. I'm saying that for your argument to make any sense, the coverage of shields would need to be increased so that an archer can't shoot through the model of a board shield to hit the player's feet. Besides that, a low level shield takes a very small number of arrows to break (though I'd be OK with that - just so long as arrows don't go through the shield).

Besides that, when were we talking about a nerf? I was addressing your claim that 2H users have a way to counter archers reasonably effectively.

If they keep the bow out the 30% malus doesn't matter, you stab, they can't block, they die.  They put the bow away for a melee weapon, you put the shield away because you're not facing ranged anymore.  These are simple concepts.   :wink:

Oh, of course, how silly of me to assume that someone wouldn't try to fight me in a melee with a bow  :rolleyes: 
I wasn't saying that an archer wouldn't pull a melee weapon if you managed to get close enough and that you'd then put away the shield. I was questioning why the bloody hell you'd continue to use a longsword as a 1h weapon (and how that would be even remotely effective). Hell, even if the archer does (for some reason; perhaps they've had a stroke mid-game) keep their bow out in melee, you can safely switch to 2H anyway and destroy them.

Again, this is all assuming you can get close enough. My comment was regarding the absurdity of using the longsword as a 1h, especially with no 1h WPF. This disclaimer is provided in the hopes that you won't try to employ some logical fallacy (like claiming that I'm now saying a 2H can easily beat an archer).

Usually none.  I accept that 2hers are supposed to be weak vs ranged spam, however I do have a rank 0 shield for advancing when I'm too lazy to use cover or juke at all (which isn't often).  It gets me from point A to B just fine, B being in melee range of the ranged guy I want to kill.  You don't just walk in a straight line with the shield raised the whole time you're advancing just because you have a shield on do you?  I hope not.

Yep, I put on a shield, realise that my feet are getting shot and my shield is rapidly deteriorating and decide it best to walk in a straight line [note again: this is also sarcasm].

A decent archer can easily shoot your feet through a board shield while you slowly dodge across the field. Even if they can't, for some reason, they can sure as hell destroy your shield before you get to them.

So again is it buff shielders, or nerf throwing/ranged?

Again, it is neither. I was not discussing a nerf, I was pointing out the ridiculousness of your statements. If you really want to know what I think should happen; throwing should be nerfed. My thrower has only one weakness; other throwers. Of course, a sneaky ninja can get a quick hit or two on me, but a sneaky anything could do that as well.

So you made a concious decision to give up protection vs ranged.  Good for you.  I do the same as well most of the time on my 2hers and polearm toons.  However just because you choose not to use it, doesn't mean the capability doesn't exist.  Big difference.

Yes, forgive me for making that assumption. I mean, I've obviously missed the point in my post and completely neglected that a 2H can use a shield [note again: this is sarcasm]. I think it's quite bloody obvious that I'm saying that a shield is so damned useless that it's easier to just dodge projectiles than weigh yourself down with a shield.

Hopefully my use of the sarcasm notes and my increase in detail with explanations will reduce the number of straw man arguments used in your post. I'm doubtful though. (Also of note, I wouldn't be talking to you like this if you'd stop behaving like a smug douche).


Reply to other posts while typing:
They'll stop an arrow or two, for no skill investment.  Otherwise put 1 point into shield skill and carry:
Nordic Shield
1064
weight 3.5
requirement 1
hit points 240
body armor 5
spd rtng 100
shield width 34

Or

Old Board Shield
600
weight 4.5
requirement 1
hit points 200
body armor 1
spd rtng 89
shield width 26
shield height 60

Can't use on horseback

That's at least 200 hp worth of protection for 1 point invested.

That's at least 200 hp worth of protection if you're trying to block the arrows of an absolutely terrible (in skill, please don't twist this to assume I'm commenting on an archer's moral or other fortitude) archer. As I've said; any decent archer (even my level 20 archer) can shoot through a board shield to hit people's feet.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Xant on March 03, 2011, 02:47:37 am
As it is, shield are just Not Worth It. You'll be slowed down so much you'll get hit every time, and it's a gamble whether or not the arrow goes through your shield.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: MountedRhader on March 03, 2011, 02:56:38 am
I know most of the players on NA suck balls
wtf..
-.-
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Xant on March 03, 2011, 02:59:26 am
It's true when i played there I TOPPED THE SCOREBOARDS I am pretty awesome though but still i did it and I am pretty awesome btw.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Mattressi on March 03, 2011, 04:08:50 am
wtf..
-.-

Sorry if that sounds offensive. I'm not saying there aren't any good NA players (there are many exceptional players), but you have to admit that there are a lot of horrible players on NA. I'm used to a server consisting of a small group of hardcore Warband/cRPG players where almost every kill is difficult to get. NA, on the other hand, is very challenging only if you choose to ignore the large number of peasants and absolutely terrible 2H 'spammers' (who seem to try to spam any weapon regardless of speed; even I can block them easily and hit them, without them even attempting to block!). For sure there are many good 2H (and even peasants!), but there are also many crap players who are easy to kill. I've found (in my small number of hours on NA, so likely it isn't very accurate) that the best players on there are 1h/shield, 2H and polearm users. I think I've only been hit by an archer three or four times and each time was when I was climbing a steep ladder on a siege map without a shield. Some of the archers on the Aus server can shoot a foot from across the other side of a wide map. Surely some NA archers can too, but I have yet to encounter them. All of this could be said for EU too, but Gorath is on NA so I spoke about NA, rather than EU (though I never play EU because I get a ping of 350+ on there  :shock:).
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Konrax on March 03, 2011, 01:00:39 pm
SURE YOU CAN USE THEM VERY WELL SIR.

Lol insult the player to make your "point".

The main reason I don't play a 2h character is because the computer I play on is 9 years old and honestly it just doesn't run well enough to manual block consistently on high population servers.

Also just a last point, don't act like your all high and mighty or that your "skills" really are so significantly better.

I have a weapon collection irl and train with hand to hand weapons and also a practitioner of hapkido so in all honesty I have far more skill with weapons than you do.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Vibe on March 03, 2011, 01:31:46 pm
Lol insult the player to make your "point".

The main reason I don't play a 2h character is because the computer I play on is 9 years old and honestly it just doesn't run well enough to manual block consistently on high population servers.

Also just a last point, don't act like your all high and mighty or that your "skills" really are so significantly better.

I have a weapon collection irl and train with hand to hand weapons and also a practitioner of hapkido so in all honesty I have far more skill with weapons than you do.

I'm not sure if this is a trollpost or not. I mean aren't we talking about in-game 2h skills in this thread? Or did it suddenly turn into a real life ninja skills discussion? Neither can you claim with certainty that you have more RL ninja skillz than Xant. What if he really is a ninja irl and is already lurking your bedroom shadows because you so foolishly present your claims?

I wish I could tripleminus your awesomebar.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Siiem on March 03, 2011, 01:50:35 pm
I fail to see how ninja skills come in handy when you fight with a european great sword.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Torp on March 03, 2011, 01:53:50 pm
I have a weapon collection irl and train with hand to hand weapons and also a practitioner of hapkido so in all honesty I have far more skill with weapons than you do.

you just played the ultimate fail card

you only say stuff like this if you know you've failed and you want to save it by trying to impress other people with your 'awesome' collection.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Vibe on March 03, 2011, 01:58:09 pm
you just played the ultimate fail card

you only say stuff like this if you know you've failed and you want to save it by trying to impress other people with your 'awesome' collection.

I'd be careful what you say... You just might piss off this internet bully and he might poke your eye out with one of the sticks from his 'weapon collection'.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Torp on March 03, 2011, 02:08:56 pm
I'd be careful what you say... You just might piss off this internet bully and he might poke your eye out with one of the sticks from his 'weapon collection'.

oh my!
you should have warned be before, now it's too late...
christ, im so scared!
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Guts on March 03, 2011, 02:10:13 pm
Sorry if that sounds offensive. I'm not saying there aren't any good NA players (there are many exceptional players), but you have to admit that there are a lot of horrible players on NA. I'm used to a server consisting of a small group of hardcore Warband/cRPG players where almost every kill is difficult to get. NA, on the other hand, is very challenging only if you choose to ignore the large number of peasants and absolutely terrible 2H 'spammers' (who seem to try to spam any weapon regardless of speed; even I can block them easily and hit them, without them even attempting to block!). For sure there are many good 2H (and even peasants!), but there are also many crap players who are easy to kill. I've found (in my small number of hours on NA, so likely it isn't very accurate) that the best players on there are 1h/shield, 2H and polearm users. I think I've only been hit by an archer three or four times and each time was when I was climbing a steep ladder on a siege map without a shield. Some of the archers on the Aus server can shoot a foot from across the other side of a wide map. Surely some NA archers can too, but I have yet to encounter them. All of this could be said for EU too, but Gorath is on NA so I spoke about NA, rather than EU (though I never play EU because I get a ping of 350+ on there  :shock:).

theres bad players on both NA and EU servers as well as good ones and many 2 h in NA do try the spam spam method which is fine by me easy kills but going as far as saying best fighters are sheilders imo sheild= baddie cant manual block and if he can and well he gets respect  im not sure theres only 3 rlly good sheilders i can think of most others just fall for the circle spam and only 3 or 4 times shot by an archer i wanna kno when u played on NA i get shot at least twice a map lol :P
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: John on March 03, 2011, 02:15:05 pm
theres bad players on both NA and EU servers as well as good ones and many 2 h in NA do try the spam spam method which is fine by me easy kills but going as far as saying best fighters are sheilders imo sheild= baddie cant manual block and if he can and well he gets respect  im not sure theres only 3 rlly good sheilders i can think of most others just fall for the circle spam and only 3 or 4 times shot by an archer i wanna kno when u played on NA i get shot at least twice a map lol :P

Is that supposed to be one sentence?
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Guts on March 03, 2011, 02:18:02 pm
Is that supposed to be one sentence?
yes my super awesome run on sentence :D. John you rlly gonna grammer chocolate chip cookie me >_< .
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: RandomDude on March 03, 2011, 02:56:07 pm
My take on 2h spam:

Back in the black armour days i didnt even block 1/2 the time and trusted to glancing bows that wouldnt interrupt me (players were too close/bad swing/bad movement/not enough ps.

So obviously it was just swing/swing/take a hit/block/swing swing swing swing tk tk tk tk.

Nowadays i cant ever really remember spamming anyone. Even feinting more than 2-3 times gets me slashed.

If you turtle up then 2h will spam you for sure - they have no reason not to.

Playing on my 1h i sometime take 2-3 hits from a 2h/polearm to get a measure of their speed and then make my attacks. You CAN "spam" as a 1h too u know. U dont always have to block as soon as you finish your attack. The 1hs i fear most just go mental on me like i was a crush-blocker sometimes and thats the mindset you need to have to beat "spam".

If you're on a "defensive" mindset then those with an "offensive" mindset will be attacking you more than you are attacking them.

Too much of one or the other and too much of a fixed mindset will make you fuck up eventually though.

Sometimes it's good to go mental and just trust to footwork to avoid blows. Sometimes it's better to block 2-3 blows before you make your attack (i do this as a flamberger often enough - usualy against a fast attacker just so i can get the timing right and they will be in "spam" mode and dont block your swing 1/2 the time).
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Franklin on March 03, 2011, 05:10:27 pm
Is it possible to use the logs to count kills by weapon type?  I know they scroll up the side of the screen ingame, but does it actually record it?

Just curious as everyone is commenting from a personal level and personal experience.  It would be quite interesting to look at it from a global view based on actual game data.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Camaris on March 03, 2011, 05:42:31 pm
EU4 had it but last time i checked it was mixed with prepatch stats so you really couldnt see the current stats well.
Dont know if EU4 still has Stats but i guess they would need a fresh start to get some viable data from it.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Ming on March 03, 2011, 06:35:56 pm
:Dbest advice : Make a 2h to see it urself :D
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Leesin on March 03, 2011, 07:29:36 pm

I have a weapon collection irl and train with hand to hand weapons and also a practitioner of hapkido so in all honesty I have far more skill with weapons than you do.

Wow, someone else with a weapon collection, I too have various bats, clubs and kitchen knives, we're like long lost brothers.

Except the Hapkido part, I like to learn -real- martial arts.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Konrax on March 03, 2011, 10:03:49 pm
Wow, someone else with a weapon collection, I too have various bats, clubs and kitchen knives, we're like long lost brothers.

Except the Hapkido part, I like to learn -real- martial arts.

Lol good job insulting one of the most effective combat martial arts ever to exist. Formed from the Takeda house martial arts, the founder of Hapkido knew all 3308 moves within the Takeda house art and made Hapkido with it. Hapkido was also used by the Korean Elite guard to protect the royal family against all types of martial arts and potential threats.

EDIT: I forgot to mention Hapkido is also used by SWAT, ETF, Special Forces, Navy Seals and even the Marines learn a few Hapkdio moves.

As far as my weapon collection goes, lets just say I sleep with a Nodachi next to my bed not a baseball bat.

As far as 2h spam goes I can kill people with 1 wpf in 2h using a longsword and keeping up with all but the fastest 2h fighters using my elite manual blocking skills. On a side note I swing the longsword significantly faster 2 handed with 1wpf than I do 1handed with 145 wpf.

EDIT2: The reason I talked about my RL skills is to show how your internet video game skills are pointless when we are trying to have a discussion about game mechanics and FAIRNESS within this mod and that I have a life outside of playing this mod 24/7.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Torp on March 03, 2011, 10:06:59 pm
Lol good job insulting one of the most effective combat martial arts ever to exist. Formed from the Takeda house martial arts, the founder of Hapkido knew all 3308 moves within the Takeda house art and made Hapkido with it. Hapkido was also used by the Korean Elite guard to protect the royal family against all types of martial arts and potential threats.

EDIT: I forgot to mention Hapkido is also used by SWAT, ETF, Special Forces, Navy Seals and even the Marines learn a few Hapkdio moves.

As far as my weapon collection goes, lets just say I sleep with a Nodachi next to my bed not a baseball bat.

As far as 2h spam goes I can kill people with 1 wpf in 2h using a longsword and keeping up with all but the fastest 2h fighters using my elite manual blocking skills. On a side note I swing the longsword significantly faster 2 handed with 1wpf than I do 1handed with 145 wpf.

you managed to fail again
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Gorath on March 03, 2011, 10:10:31 pm
Lol good job insulting one of the most effective combat martial arts ever to exist. Formed from the Takeda house martial arts, the founder of Hapkido knew all 3308 moves within the Takeda house art and made Hapkido with it. Hapkido was also used by the Korean Elite guard to protect the royal family against all types of martial arts and potential threats.

EDIT: I forgot to mention Hapkido is also used by SWAT, ETF, Special Forces, Navy Seals and even the Marines learn a few Hapkdio moves.

As far as my weapon collection goes, lets just say I sleep with a Nodachi next to my bed not a baseball bat.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


On a side note I swing the longsword significantly faster 2 handed with 1wpf than I do 1handed with 145 wpf.
2h'd superior animations.  Everyone eventually notices that 2hers don't need wpf compared to the other weapon types.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Konrax on March 03, 2011, 10:11:39 pm
So I guess based on what you said, saying that 2h has better animations then it therefore has an advantage and should be nerfed so it is in par with 1h?

Is that what your saying?



EDIT:

Korean Police showing off their Hapkido
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLbjpRFI3YA

Hapkido Grandmaster Showing some pain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM2ySFA3t3M
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: jspook on March 03, 2011, 10:20:18 pm
So I guess based on what you said, saying that 2h has better animations then it therefore has an advantage and should be nerfed so it is in par with 1h?

Is that what your saying?

Yes, yes.  Let's just make every single weapon in the game equal all across the board.  With 100 speed, 40 cut and 35 pierce.  No variation.  None at all.  No class differences, no weapon drawbacks or advantages whatsoever.  Just different models.  Yes, yes.  This would make the game much more fun and interesting.
 :?

I guess you also whine when people drive a better car than you too
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Konrax on March 03, 2011, 10:22:39 pm
Yes, yes.  Let's just make every single weapon in the game equal all across the board.  With 100 speed, 40 cut and 35 pierce.  No variation.  None at all.  No class differences, no weapon drawbacks or advantages whatsoever.  Just different models.  Yes, yes.  This would make the game much more fun and interesting.
 :?

I guess you also whine when people drive a better car than you too

Sorry is it too much to ask that both skills be equal speed at the same weapon speed? So that a 92 speed weapon is 92 speed in all the three melee types. Not 92 speed in 2h, 85 speed 1h, and 89 speed polearm?

Not asking for all the same weapons, asking for FAIR animations that don't artificially make one proficiency faster than other ones.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: King Ahab on March 03, 2011, 10:28:27 pm
I have 90 wpf and I outswing a lot of 1h'ers... is that just the incentive in a fight or plain low wpf on the 1h side?

EDIT: with 2h, a lot comes down to the footwork... you can actually force glancing blows and outswing a fast 1her by shifting around..
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Xant on March 03, 2011, 10:49:41 pm
Lol good job insulting one of the most effective combat martial arts ever to exist. Formed from the Takeda house martial arts, the founder of Hapkido knew all 3308 moves within the Takeda house art and made Hapkido with it. Hapkido was also used by the Korean Elite guard to protect the royal family against all types of martial arts and potential threats.

EDIT: I forgot to mention Hapkido is also used by SWAT, ETF, Special Forces, Navy Seals and even the Marines learn a few Hapkdio moves.

As far as my weapon collection goes, lets just say I sleep with a Nodachi next to my bed not a baseball bat.

As far as 2h spam goes I can kill people with 1 wpf in 2h using a longsword and keeping up with all but the fastest 2h fighters using my elite manual blocking skills. On a side note I swing the longsword significantly faster 2 handed with 1wpf than I do 1handed with 145 wpf.

EDIT2: The reason I talked about my RL skills is to show how your internet video game skills are pointless when we are trying to have a discussion about game mechanics and FAIRNESS within this mod and that I have a life outside of playing this mod 24/7.

Oh shiit, not the SWAT and the special forces? Craaaaap. I do thusly apologize for offending you, please don't grab the nodachi next to your bed and come after me with your INSANE hapkido skillz. And by gods, please do not link to more Hapkido videos on youtube, they are making me have nightmares.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Siiem on March 03, 2011, 10:55:30 pm
EDIT: I forgot to mention Hapkido is also used by SWAT, ETF, Special Forces, Navy Seals and even the Marines learn a few Hapkdio moves.

No actually, I do belive those guys learn Krav maga and Kenpo.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: cmp on March 03, 2011, 10:59:03 pm
I have a weapon collection irl and train with hand to hand weapons and also a practitioner of hapkido so in all honesty I have far more skill with weapons than you do.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Konrax on March 03, 2011, 11:00:20 pm
EDIT: I forgot to mention Hapkido is also used by SWAT, ETF, Special Forces, Navy Seals and even the Marines learn a few Hapkdio moves.

lolllllll cmpxchg8b nice picture but your way off. It's nice to see that admins acting like said picture.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Franklin on March 03, 2011, 11:11:09 pm

EDIT2: The reason I talked about my RL skills is to show how your internet video game skills are pointless when we are trying to have a discussion about game mechanics and FAIRNESS within this mod and that I have a life outside of playing this mod 24/7.

Interesting martial art. Seriously.  But it doesn't realy have a bearing on this game per se.  Nor does any other for that matter.  I am in re-enactment and have faced Dane axes, bows, crossbows, cavalry and brute violence from the more enthusiastic groups.   I could rattle off how the 2 handed weapon in-game is slightly close to the real thing in its damage capabilities and its ability to bust through weapons but is miles away in speed because the game doesnt realistically represent weapon mass.  Thus it is a lot faster than it should be.  But at the end of the day its bollocks.
Without any hard data as to which weapon class tops the charts and by how much it is all speculation.  Things missing from the conversation are

level differences
class differences-an archer/xbowman is fecked if caught by anybody.
which class has the most gens and heirlooms
Armour worn.  You might be able to take 3 hits from a shielder, but if you screw up just once against a 2 hander your knackered.
Class balance by map.  In one game taking a castle it was in the main 2 handers.  When it switched to the shore landing with the village at the top of some cliffs it seemed to switch to shields.

Only if after checking all this against kill levels, there is still a large leaning towards 2 handers then there is an issue to be looked at.  It is my belief at the moment that most of the 2 hander players are old timers with heirloom weapons and it is new players like myself that are getting cheesed by them because our stats and equipment arent quite there yet.  Plus I think most people find 2 handed a lot of fun especially against groups where you can swing like a crazy f*cker and hit lots.

I do believe as well that the stats do make the 2 handed weapons a bit to fast but I would rather sojmething done to the other classes rather than go nerf mad.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Xant on March 03, 2011, 11:11:58 pm
No actually, I do belive those guys learn Krav maga and Kenpo.

No, they don't have one system they train in. Marines, for example, have their own shizzle. And others usually use whatever trainers they can get (=inhouse people usually, so depends what they've trained in)
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Konrax on March 03, 2011, 11:17:53 pm
Oh shiit, not the SWAT and the special forces? Craaaaap. I do thusly apologize for offending you, please don't grab the nodachi next to your bed and come after me with your INSANE hapkido skillz. And by gods, please do not link to more Hapkido videos on youtube, they are making me have nightmares.

I guess you proved my point that your attacking the person and not even saying a single thing about the game mechanics that your quoting.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Xant on March 03, 2011, 11:34:51 pm
I guess you proved my point that your attacking the person and not even saying a single thing about the game mechanics that your quoting.

Ah yes I am sorry, you sleeping next to a nodachi has a lot to do with game mechanics.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Konrax on March 03, 2011, 11:46:23 pm
It has more to do than you repeatedly attacking me on this forum.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Xant on March 03, 2011, 11:52:08 pm
lolwat
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Konrax on March 03, 2011, 11:54:36 pm
To spell it out for you, at least I talk about a sword and experience using one which is roughly the idea of what the game "Mount and Blade" is all about.

Your just acting like a douche.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Lanic0r on March 04, 2011, 12:01:21 am
Most iportant is that glitch 2h´s use.
The ridiculous thing is that you can stab and during the stab swing to anydirection and "pierce" with the flank of sword.
A stab should be a short pierce but its not, even if your max range is reached you are capabel to swing your stab to any direction and hit.
If this is fixed, 2h wont be OP anymore and the game is ballanced ;D
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Xant on March 04, 2011, 12:04:38 am
To spell it out for you, at least I talk about a sword and experience using one which is roughly the idea of what the game "Mount and Blade" is all about.

Your just acting like a douche.

You're not talking about anything relevant to M&B. You're just bragging and trying to impress others, when in reality only one impressed is yourself. Your "experience" has nothing to do with anything. Even if it /did/, you haven't mentioned anything useful. Stop acting like we care about your "Hapkido."
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Konrax on March 04, 2011, 12:39:07 am
Lol insult the player to make your "point".

The main reason I don't play a 2h character is because the computer I play on is 9 years old and honestly it just doesn't run well enough to manual block consistently on high population servers.

Also just a last point, don't act like your all high and mighty or that your "skills" really are so significantly better.


Note that those are video game skills in a blatantly unbalanced game.

Honestly what I think would make it fair is if 2h weapons had to wait a bit to swing again if they missed, thus allowing an adequate chance for players with shorter weapons to attack back. This would not hinder the core mechanics of strike block strike combat but would instead make a penalty for players who just swing their giant 2h weapons all over the place.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: bruce on March 04, 2011, 12:46:23 am
Honestly what I think would make it fair is if 2h weapons had to wait a bit to swing again if they missed, thus allowing an adequate chance for players with shorter weapons to attack back.

You have an adequate chance to attack back. You just need to counterattack after blocking, and do so immediately. If you are not in range, you don't attack.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Xant on March 04, 2011, 12:52:17 am
Note that those are video game skills in a blatantly unbalanced game.

Honestly what I think would make it fair is if 2h weapons had to wait a bit to swing again if they missed, thus allowing an adequate chance for players with shorter weapons to attack back. This would not hinder the core mechanics of strike block strike combat but would instead make a penalty for players who just swing their giant 2h weapons all over the place.

What? Why did you quote yourself and what does it have to do with anything? Note that you know absolutely nothing about my RL skills, and yet you made the idiotic assumption you know more about the subject.

The game isn't "blatantly unbalanced." It's not perfectly balanced, but melee isn't broken at the moment. To counter 2h, l2p.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Vibe on March 04, 2011, 07:48:49 am
At the end of the day player skill wins. Stop this QQ at once.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Franklin on March 04, 2011, 09:14:53 am
At the end of the day player skill wins. Stop this QQ at once.
Er not quite.
If you carry a shield and meet a 2 hander skill is only a minor factor.
You have to take into account:

Level difference
Stat differences
Equipment strengths
Heirlooms
Weapon stats
Ping

amongst other things.

If you as a non 2 hander meet someone wielding a Barmace or 2h Sword, how many times can you afford to screw up and get hit?  Once? Twice?  If the 2 hander has decent equipment he can potentialy afford to screw up a few times before going down.  In the mean time he has cut a bloody swathe across the battlements.  The damage differences and weapon effects are poles apart.


Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Vibe on March 04, 2011, 09:23:11 am
Er not quite.
If you carry a shield and meet a 2 hander skill is only a minor factor.
You have to take into account:

Level difference
Stat differences
Equipment strengths
Heirlooms
Weapon stats
Ping

amongst other things.

If you as a non 2 hander meet someone wielding a Barmace or 2h Sword, how many times can you afford to screw up and get hit?  Once? Twice?  If the 2 hander has decent equipment he can potentialy afford to screw up a few times before going down.  In the mean time he has cut a bloody swathe across the battlements.  The damage differences and weapon effects are poles apart.

Then don't screw up - which ends up in player skill, doesn't it? Also 2 handers have a weakness for all the ranged, including thrown which is what is actually quite OP these days. Shielders can just hide behind the shield. This is a team game. If you can't duel a 2-hander then get your artillery to take him down - agi 2h will be dead in 2 shots, or even one. And the STR one can't spam you as much.

I swear you people find anything to nitpick on.

L2P
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Punisher on March 04, 2011, 11:42:58 am
Er not quite.
If you carry a shield and meet a 2 hander skill is only a minor factor.
You have to take into account:

Level difference
Stat differences
Equipment strengths
Heirlooms
Weapon stats
Ping

amongst other things.

If you as a non 2 hander meet someone wielding a Barmace or 2h Sword, how many times can you afford to screw up and get hit?  Once? Twice?  If the 2 hander has decent equipment he can potentialy afford to screw up a few times before going down.  In the mean time he has cut a bloody swathe across the battlements.  The damage differences and weapon effects are poles apart.

Guess what, that applies to everyone, you think a 2H weapon gives you superpowers and you can screw up against anyone? If I screw up once against a shielder and allow him to hit me I'm dead because I usually get outspammed and with the 1h animations I rarely manage to block. Now if you suck and allow 2H to circle spam you it's your own fault.

I actually think a 1h+shield can afford to screw up way more than a 2H because you can always hide behind your shield if you are in a tight situation, while a 2H has to manual block his way out.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Patricia on March 04, 2011, 12:19:49 pm
Note that those are video game skills in a blatantly unbalanced game.

Honestly what I think would make it fair is if 2h weapons had to wait a bit to swing again if they missed, thus allowing an adequate chance for players with shorter weapons to attack back. This would not hinder the core mechanics of strike block strike combat but would instead make a penalty for players who just swing their giant 2h weapons all over the place.

Derp, my name is Konrax and I'm a shielder using the most overpowered 1 handed weapon and I still want weapons nerfed because I suck at the game.

Have you never heard of the W key? Use it.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Vibe on March 04, 2011, 01:27:15 pm
Derp, my name is Konrax and I'm a shielder using the most overpowered 1 handed weapon and I still want weapons nerfed because I suck at the game.

Have you never heard of the W key? Use it.

I think ALT+F4 would suit him better.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Franklin on March 04, 2011, 01:37:12 pm
Guess what, that applies to everyone, you think a 2H weapon gives you superpowers and you can screw up against anyone? If I screw up once against a shielder and allow him to hit me I'm dead because I usually get outspammed and with the 1h animations I rarely manage to block. Now if you suck and allow 2H to circle spam you it's your own fault.

I actually think a 1h+shield can afford to screw up way more than a 2H because you can always hide behind your shield if you are in a tight situation, while a 2H has to manual block his way out.

This is true.  I was just attempting to point out that there are other factors involved other than pure player skill. 
There are a lot of things to be considered when assessing a classes affectivness and overall impact on the balance of a game.  If there is no issue with 2 handed weapons then we have had a fun discussion.  If there is then hopefully nerf/buff/compromise, the problem will be solved.

As to which class is more prolific only game data can tell.

Hell, if we don't discuss this kind of thing then nothing is learnt and there is no evolution towards perfection.  :wink:
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Cyclopsided on March 04, 2011, 01:42:34 pm
I really hated spam...
...and then played for a day or so and I learned to block; now all of the spammers, particularly 2h spammer, are free kills.

--Hell I think attack speed [well, mostly block speed] is too slow currently and can't imagine playing in the slow-time molasses every other poster keeps suggesting is their ideal land that reminds them of single player on slowest combat setting.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: v/onMega on March 04, 2011, 01:47:07 pm
Hahahaha.

A Huscarl side sword 0815 turtle just took 2/3 of my HP with one hit yesterday and damm he was fast while doing it.
Tansitional, Klappvisier, 21 str, 3 IF.

Just like many other 1H weapons...the whole class is just nice to play if you know how to.
DimaUrban toping the scoreboard EVERY god damm time he plays.

Cant believe that there still is shielders whining.
This mod is getting more and more ridicolous ->>
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Blondin on March 04, 2011, 01:55:48 pm
Adapt and win.
Whine and lose.

1hander are still very effective against 2h, but you have to train and learn how.
Footwork, timing, game mechanics.
Footwork is essential, turn around your foe, sidestep, foward fast, backward when needed...
Timing, strike at the right moment, right after a block, or after your foe miss you, but you got to be fast reactive and concentrate.
Game mechanics, sometimes 2h can strike twice cos you're stun (or stone, that's another problem). When you land a hit, you can strike again, your foe doesn't have the time to strike when he's wounded (call it the double tap...)

Btw, my main is a 1hander but when i play my 2hander, shielders are what i hate the most...i hate that sidesword spammer!
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Vibe on March 04, 2011, 01:58:47 pm
This is true.  I was just attempting to point out that there are other factors involved other than pure player skill. 
There are a lot of things to be considered when assessing a classes affectivness and overall impact on the balance of a game.  If there is no issue with 2 handed weapons then we have had a fun discussion.  If there is then hopefully nerf/buff/compromise, the problem will be solved.

As to which class is more prolific only game data can tell.

Hell, if we don't discuss this kind of thing then nothing is learnt and there is no evolution towards perfection.  :wink:

It seems you realized you were wrong with your rants.

Also if there is discussion about weapon type balance (1h vs 2h for example) it is obvious we're keeping in mind the other factors are similar (level, gear, etc) or this wouldn't be just a thread about weapon type balance, but a game balance thread (omg I'm a peasant and can't kill a tincan with my scytche, NERF that 2h he is using!).

Like I said before, in the end skill is what matters (even if you're a bit undergeared) so... I suggest you train your 1h skill more. I know I don't stand a bloody chance against a half decent shielder if he starts hugging me, 1h animations are wicked deadly once they're hugging you.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Franklin on March 04, 2011, 03:17:23 pm
It seems you realized you were wrong with your rants.


I wasnt aware I was ranting. My writing style must need a tweak.  :?  I also wasn't aware of stating that one side was right and the other wrong, only that we didn't have the info to say anything for definate.

At the end of the day only time will tell with this.  It does make for a good chat tho  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Konrax on March 04, 2011, 03:34:50 pm
Derp, my name is Konrax and I'm a shielder using the most overpowered 1 handed weapon and I still want weapons nerfed because I suck at the game.

Have you never heard of the W key? Use it.

I never even said what my build is or what weapons I use.

ALT+F4 Your life.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: joshko on March 04, 2011, 03:51:28 pm
Dexx supports 2h nerf
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Patricia on March 04, 2011, 04:13:39 pm
I never even said what my build is or what weapons I use.

ALT+F4 Your life.

So? I still see you play ingame.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Dexxtaa on March 04, 2011, 04:57:19 pm
I feel like 30% of this thread is Konrax telling us about his weapon collection and how proficient he is in Hapkido (and why we should learn it). Another 10% is people either trolling Konrax, or simply telling him what an idiot they think he is.

I was looking forward to reading 10 pages about complaints about 2 handed spam and how unfounded those claims are. Let's get back on topic! So far (besides the silliness and macho posturing and insults) I like what's being said here.

I agree while most one-handed fighters are almost useless without their shields (try bringing and axe to battle, breaking a shield, and watching the guy freak. out.). However, I've met a fair few capable one-handed fighters, who are perfectly competent without a shield (albeit they still use picks and hammers, from what I've seen), but props to the fighters who know how to fight without a shield, and aren't reliant on it.

Also, is everyone a pure build?  I'm reading a lot of posts and from what I can tell, most people are pure-building their characters.


Dexx supports 2h nerf

Wait, whaaaat ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8AL2ZRPpSI
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Torp on March 04, 2011, 05:02:41 pm
i think most people are melee/ranged
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: John on March 04, 2011, 05:04:48 pm
I hate how when I fight most two handers, they don't wait for me to swing back before starting another swing.  If they weren't such jerks, they'd let me counter attack at my own pace instead of just winning. 
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Phyrex on March 04, 2011, 05:08:03 pm
The instant anyone I face hesitate or show any form of weakness I'll spam them, and I enjoy every moment of it.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Geranigus on March 04, 2011, 09:55:35 pm
The only thing I dislike about 2handers is the quantity.
More and more people go for 2handswords.  :rolleyes:
I would love more variation.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Punisher on March 04, 2011, 11:07:04 pm
The only thing I dislike about 2handers is the quantity.
More and more people go for 2handswords.  :rolleyes:
I would love more variation.

Hmm as a 2hander I feel the other way around, more and more people go for 1h+shield, there has definetly been a large increase in their numbers after the patch.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Torp on March 04, 2011, 11:09:19 pm
Hmm as a 2hander I feel the other way around, more and more people go for 1h+shield, there has definetly been a large increase in their numbers after the patch.

that and the throwers.

the worst are the 1h shield+thrower hybrids
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Gorath on March 04, 2011, 11:26:42 pm
Hmm as a 2hander I feel the other way around, more and more people go for 1h+shield, there has definetly been a large increase in their numbers after the patch.

I think that's more due to all the ranged spam.  Playing without a shield is like playing roullette every round whether or not you get pelted with random arrows/thrown weapons.  Not an issue though, 1h/shield is so much weaker than 2h/polearms that if you surive the ranged spam as a 2her most of the remaining infantry are easy kills with a decent 2h player you might have to battle at the end.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Xant on March 04, 2011, 11:45:02 pm
1h/shield is much weaker than 2h/polearms... how?
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: DrKronic on March 04, 2011, 11:47:11 pm
So animation and all around stab damage nerf on greatswords, katana weight and damage mega nerf, morningstar nerf all since latest patch didn't adjust anything

Kids gorath purposely ignores these things and refuses to use side swords steel picks espada spamitar hammers and then says one hand sucks

Well sure if u force yourself into using horrible weapons of any class you will fail

I have no problem destroying people with wifeys +1 sidesword, tuffels deadly pick is superpower

The cake and this thread are surreal, I should masterwork side sword, nay espada
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: The_Newer_Wind on March 06, 2011, 11:33:01 am
Sometimes, the best defense is a good offense.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Gorath on March 06, 2011, 07:43:39 pm
So animation and all around stab damage nerf on greatswords, katana weight and damage mega nerf, morningstar nerf all since latest patch didn't adjust anything
Animation and stab nerf?  Are you shitting me?  Animations are still the best in the game, stab can be machinegunned now, STILL spun 360 degrees like a lightsaber and actually glances less because of slightly shorter range WHICH, btw, is still longer than most polearms.  2h swords still pretty much have thrusting pierce damage on lockdown compared to the pokey polearm weapons.  Why do you insist on just making things up?   :rolleyes:  I play a 2her as well, I know damn well how buff they are in relation to everything else, AND I don't even use the cookie cutter lolswords of uber stat doom.

Kids gorath purposely ignores these things and refuses to use side swords steel picks espada spamitar hammers and then says one hand sucks
Indeed I do:
Side sword is shit - renaissance fencing rapier looking thing that has no place on the field and certainly not with the look for my toon
I do use the steel pick sometimes, where have you been :P
Again, spammitar doesn't fit my theme and not everyone on the field should be the exact same.
I do use a hammer some rounds, where have you been :P

None of this matters because it's a matter of personal preference when you look at the stats of the weapons.  1hers have the shortest reach, lowest damage, on average the lowest weight (leading to more block stuns).  When used with a shield, which is supposed to be their big benefit, they suffer a decent speed malus.  I've never said that 1hers suck, or that they're too weak to succeed, simply that they are the weakest weapon type which the mechanics and math supports.   :rolleyes:

Well sure if u force yourself into using horrible weapons of any class you will fail
I don't fail that much actually.  Perhaps you should stop crutching on lolweapons and use something "normal" once and a while to gain some perspective of the game and relationship between the classes/weapons from a normal viewpoint instead of looking at them from the perspective of lolfotmOPweaponcarry of the moment.   :wink:
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Xant on March 07, 2011, 11:12:03 am
1h is overpowered... and the mechanics support it!

IS MATHEMATICS
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Madcat on March 07, 2011, 11:23:38 am
1h/shield is much weaker than 2h/polearms... how?

Well it does less damage for one :p
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Galgorth on March 07, 2011, 12:29:28 pm
As a former avid 2h user who saw the light and converted to sword and board, I can emphatically say that 2h/polearms have been somewhat underpowered ever since the agility nerf. The animations make them relatively easy to block/parry (compared to 1h weapons) and they are generally slower. The only upsides are their range and marginally higher damage, which, while useful, don't outweigh the speed/blocking ability of 1h + shield.

When I see 2hers running around on the battlefield, I lick my lips at the easy kill ahead of me.

When I see 1h + shield, I groan at the pain in the ass it will be to kill them if they are any good.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Xant on March 07, 2011, 12:56:47 pm
As a former avid 2h user who saw the light and converted to sword and board, I can emphatically say that 2h/polearms have been somewhat underpowered ever since the agility nerf. The animations make them relatively easy to block/parry (compared to 1h weapons) and they are generally slower. The only upsides are their range and marginally higher damage, which, while useful, don't outweigh the speed/blocking ability of 1h + shield.

When I see 2hers running around on the battlefield, I lick my lips at the easy kill ahead of me.

When I see 1h + shield, I groan at the pain in the ass it will be to kill them if they are any good.

Yeah, spot on. For the animation part, I'd rather face any 2h user in a 1v1 than a 1her without a shield who knows how to block. 2h animations are just so much easier to read, and thus block.

And as to the last part, same again. I see someone without a shield, they're almost surely an easy kill. Someone with a shield? Well, if they know how to hold RMB when I'm attacking, they are, as you say, a pain in the arse to kill.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Vibe on March 07, 2011, 01:37:19 pm
As a former avid 2h user who saw the light and converted to sword and board, I can emphatically say that 2h/polearms have been somewhat underpowered ever since the agility nerf. The animations make them relatively easy to block/parry (compared to 1h weapons) and they are generally slower. The only upsides are their range and marginally higher damage, which, while useful, don't outweigh the speed/blocking ability of 1h + shield.

When I see 2hers running around on the battlefield, I lick my lips at the easy kill ahead of me.

When I see 1h + shield, I groan at the pain in the ass it will be to kill them if they are any good.

This is completely true. 2h is a LOT easier to read than 1h animations, especially because most shielders are hugging and running around you while spamming their swings. As a 2H myself I rather fight versus 3 2handers than 1 shielder. The sword&board style is even more OP in sieges. Or versus arrows. Or versus thrown.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Prentyss on March 07, 2011, 03:31:10 pm
This is completely true. 2h is a LOT easier to read than 1h animations, especially because most shielders are hugging and running around you while spamming their swings. As a 2H myself I rather fight versus 3 2handers than 1 shielder. The sword&board style is even more OP in sieges. Or versus arrows. Or versus thrown.

WARNING TROLL INSIDE :

I do agree. As i ever said, 1H+shield is the Way of Simplicity
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Vibe on March 07, 2011, 03:33:42 pm
WARNING TROLL INSIDE :

I do agree. As i ever said, 1H+shield is the Way of Simplicity

I don't see a troll inside...
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: DrKronic on March 07, 2011, 06:10:20 pm
Too much to read head asplode, u agreed with me tho every weapon class has OP weapons amirite

Edit: wait where u been, ima pure horse archer on main using a sarranid axe(no heirlooms) and managed to misspend skill points by way of ingame character thing so I have 18 str and 5 pr ps (d'oh), also been playing my polearm alt with plus one billhook so.................


Also my wife has been doing better with her "weaker in every way"  one hander than either of my current ( and I think she believes she's still playing hellgate)


Animation and stab nerf?  Are you shitting me?  Animations are still the best in the game, stab can be machinegunned now, STILL spun 360 degrees like a lightsaber and actually glances less because of slightly shorter range WHICH, btw, is still longer than most polearms.  2h swords still pretty much have thrusting pierce damage on lockdown compared to the pokey polearm weapons.  Why do you insist on just making things up?   :rolleyes:  I play a 2her as well, I know damn well how buff they are in relation to everything else, AND I don't even use the cookie cutter lolswords of uber stat doom.
Indeed I do:
Side sword is shit - renaissance fencing rapier looking thing that has no place on the field and certainly not with the look for my toon
I do use the steel pick sometimes, where have you been :P
Again, spammitar doesn't fit my theme and not everyone on the field should be the exact same.
I do use a hammer some rounds, where have you been :P

None of this matters because it's a matter of personal preference when you look at the stats of the weapons.  1hers have the shortest reach, lowest damage, on average the lowest weight (leading to more block stuns).  When used with a shield, which is supposed to be their big benefit, they suffer a decent speed malus.  I've never said that 1hers suck, or that they're too weak to succeed, simply that they are the weakest weapon type which the mechanics and math supports.   :rolleyes:
I don't fail that much actually.  Perhaps you should stop crutching on lolweapons and use something "normal" once and a while to gain some perspective of the game and relationship between the classes/weapons from a normal viewpoint instead of looking at them from the perspective of lolfotmOPweaponcarry of the moment.   :wink:
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Torp on March 07, 2011, 08:48:53 pm
Well, in a 1 on 1 i think you can discuss what is best; 2H/Polearm or 1H+shield.
For simplicity we can just say they are equal (even hough i'd still say the shielder has an advantage)

BUT:
The shield protects vs arrows, it allows you to fight multiple enemies at once, it will take much longer to kill you, and therefore you have ab igger chance of getting reinforcements in time.
Furthermore you can always just put your shield on the back and be able to fight like 2H'ers (shorter range, higher speed though)
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: DrKronic on March 07, 2011, 09:21:15 pm
Well, in a 1 on 1 i think you can discuss what is best; 2H/Polearm or 1H+shield.
For simplicity we can just say they are equal (even hough i'd still say the shielder has an advantage)

BUT:
The shield protects vs arrows, it allows you to fight multiple enemies at once, it will take much longer to kill you, and therefore you have ab igger chance of getting reinforcements in time.
Furthermore you can always just put your shield on the back and be able to fight like 2H'ers (shorter range, higher speed though)

But none of that matters at all omnidirectional block that blocks melee and arrows means nothing to a weaponslobbyist

And giving implicit team advantages in a game wholly deteremined by team battle/sieges, why would that matter DERP
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Konrax on March 07, 2011, 09:36:17 pm
Animation and stab nerf?  Are you shitting me?  Animations are still the best in the game, stab can be machinegunned now, STILL spun 360 degrees like a lightsaber and actually glances less because of slightly shorter range WHICH, btw, is still longer than most polearms.  2h swords still pretty much have thrusting pierce damage on lockdown compared to the pokey polearm weapons.  Why do you insist on just making things up?   :rolleyes:  I play a 2her as well, I know damn well how buff they are in relation to everything else, AND I don't even use the cookie cutter lolswords of uber stat doom.
Indeed I do:
Side sword is shit - renaissance fencing rapier looking thing that has no place on the field and certainly not with the look for my toon
I do use the steel pick sometimes, where have you been :P
Again, spammitar doesn't fit my theme and not everyone on the field should be the exact same.
I do use a hammer some rounds, where have you been :P

None of this matters because it's a matter of personal preference when you look at the stats of the weapons.  1hers have the shortest reach, lowest damage, on average the lowest weight (leading to more block stuns).  When used with a shield, which is supposed to be their big benefit, they suffer a decent speed malus.  I've never said that 1hers suck, or that they're too weak to succeed, simply that they are the weakest weapon type which the mechanics and math supports.   :rolleyes:
I don't fail that much actually.  Perhaps you should stop crutching on lolweapons and use something "normal" once and a while to gain some perspective of the game and relationship between the classes/weapons from a normal viewpoint instead of looking at them from the perspective of lolfotmOPweaponcarry of the moment.   :wink:

Pretty sure I already mentioned almost everything you said here and was vigorously attacked by other players.

+1
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Zisa on March 08, 2011, 09:57:52 am
Looking at the 'stats' of the weapons is a sure fire way to drive yourself crazy. These numbers all lie.

Spending a gen as sword and board, and I have to say the biggest problem with it is lack of a clue how to play it. Not ME of course.

I can see shielders getting tunnel vision quickly though, when holding the only defence up against incoming missile fire.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Vibe on March 08, 2011, 10:12:12 am
Pretty sure I already mentioned almost everything you said here and was vigorously attacked by other players.

+1

Like it was said a thousand times any half-decent 1h can beat a good 2h. You obviously fail at that. THUS THE MINUSES
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Franklin on March 08, 2011, 10:47:02 am
Pretty sure I already mentioned almost everything you said here and was vigorously attacked by other players.

+1

You could always spectate a game or two and count the kill types that scroll up the screen on the left hand side.
It will either confirm the majority view that 2h are ok or it will piss on their chips  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Prentyss on March 08, 2011, 05:12:19 pm
You could always spectate a game or two and count the kill types that scroll up the screen on the left hand side.
It will either confirm the majority view that 2h are ok or it will piss on their chips  :mrgreen:

That has just no signification if you don't consider the amount of 2H vs the one of 1H. If you want to speak about stat, take all the parameters.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: IG_Saint on March 08, 2011, 05:25:15 pm
Use the server logs from the last couple of days. just searche for each instance of <img=ico_swordone> and all the other images. It isn't perfect since lots of weapons use the same icon, but it should still give a pretty accurate view of what the most used weapon type is.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Zisa on March 08, 2011, 06:25:25 pm
I am not sure how k/d and kill stats support the arguments, when a good shielder does not have to get the kills to contribute to the team.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 08, 2011, 06:34:24 pm
I am not sure how k/d and kill stats support the arguments, when a good shielder does not have to get the kills to contribute to the team.

This. I have a character with a heavy board shield, and even though I swing slow as dirt due to 15 Agil and 104ish wpf atm (should top out at a little over 120 once I hit LVL 30) I have caused multiple people to die to my teammates. It is beyond satisfying to force an opponent into friendlies by doing a constant shield and pushing him back, giving a poke or a kick if he ever dares to ignore me.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Franklin on March 08, 2011, 08:13:51 pm
I am not sure how k/d and kill stats support the arguments, when a good shielder does not have to get the kills to contribute to the team.

I think it might be useful to know what weapon type is dealing the killing blow.  A shielder might push back or wound but how many times do they actually kill in comparison to other classes.
Same goes for Archers and polearms. 
It would be interesting to link the names on scoreboards to primary weapon types as well just to see how that scans.
Put it this way.  If kills are dominated by 2 handers to a massive degree then that may raise other questions re class dominance and weapon stats etc.  If it is an even spread with minor variations then we can wind this up and go and get laid.

This is only out of curiosity mind you.  I use a xbow so I don't find it that important.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Xant on March 08, 2011, 08:29:48 pm
Well, it's a lot more complex than that. Stats would be interesting, sure... but at the end of the day the only thing they tell is which weapon is used the most, not which weapon is balanced/unbalanced.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Blondin on March 08, 2011, 08:41:46 pm
Best K/D by weapon or numbers of kills will never tell you if a class is op or not, 2h/pole are offensive class, 1h are defensive.
Sure you see more kills by 2handers, it's logical this is their role.

Don't think that all class should have the same K/D, they have distinct role in a battle, that's why you need teamwork to win.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Michael on March 08, 2011, 10:50:16 pm








lol I just bought a flamberge for my 1h and got 4 kills..........I have no wpf in 2h, all in 1h, but still its so much easier to kill with 2h or pole than with 1hshield says it all the only thing thats easier than 2hspam is polearm spam I guess. Okay maybe throwing.

But still, when a 2h/polearm cant beat a 1hshield in 1 vs 1 the 1hshielder is the better player, a lot better, or has better ping/ computer.

Lets be honest, those who love to play with 2h/pole are people that want to collect kills.

Lets be fair people, you would not get so much kills with 1hshield, thats why you go easy mode and spam 2h/pole weapons.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Harafat on March 08, 2011, 11:03:04 pm
Ofc 2-handers get more kills.

a) We are ultra vulnerable to bows, crossbows and throwing weapons, while 1-h are practicly invulnerable.

b) We have to block manually (which is extremely hard against a 1-h due to animations) instead of just "IMCLICKINGRIGHTMOUSE,IMINVULNERABLE"

So u suggest that we have to lose the one perk we have, a good kill ratio.

A 2-hander can never outspam a scimmittar, so if u get outspammed, get that and some agi/wpf.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Michael on March 08, 2011, 11:06:06 pm
Best K/D by weapon or numbers of kills will never tell you if a class is op or not, 2h/pole are offensive class, 1h are defensive.
Sure you see more kills by 2handers, it's logical this is their role.

Don't think that all class should have the same K/D, they have distinct role in a battle, that's why you need teamwork to win.


You dont understand your own words.

If it was balanced, your words, it would mean 2h gets more kills but dies a lot (as offense class), 1hshield gets not so much kills but stays alive (as defense class),
that would lead to the same kill death ratio.

But what is the truth?

Every mediocre player with a 2h/pole is on top of the scoreboard all the time.

For real, players like Fallen/HRE_Mega, Shogunate_Sonja, Merc_Xant, and many many others who are often on top of the scoreboard with their easiest mode builds would have to work for a simple constant k d of 2 as turtler.

I am not complaining, I play for fun not for cheap easy kills, but its silly that those noobs complain about side sword or steel pick. When they die against a shielder, its because they cant block shit/ dont understand the game mechanics/ make many mistakes like humans do.

Its somehow balanced in native, but crpg priviliges 2h/polearms too much.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: bruce on March 08, 2011, 11:07:22 pm
We are ultra vulnerable to bows, crossbows and throwing weapons, while 1-h are practicly invulnerable.

Yes if you have a bazillion of shield skill and a huscarl. Just yesterday I had my 5 shield skill onehander with a heather shield hit twice by throwing from the direct front while turtling. Non-round shields are retarded.

I disagree that 1h is underpowered, however, but for wholly different reasons (I don't find our "offense" bad, exactly). But please, the "invulnerable to ranged" crap is just that, crap. I don't die to ranged much less then I did with a polearm (I had a shield, of course, duh, it's not a 1h specific thing).

The sidesword is retarded not because of 2handers or polearms, but it's retarded when you look at other onehanders, it's just silly in comparison to them.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Harafat on March 08, 2011, 11:09:07 pm
and the manual blocking is just no disadvantage versus HOLDRIGHTMOUSEBUTTONICANTDIE?
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: bruce on March 08, 2011, 11:11:04 pm
and the manual blocking is just no disadvantage versus HOLDRIGHTMOUSEBUTTONICANTDIE?

derp, reading comprehension failure? What part of "I disagree 1h is underpowered" is not clear?

I'm just sick of people pulling the old "you're safe from ranged" card, because I wish it was so and it isn't.

Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Harafat on March 08, 2011, 11:13:12 pm
"i disagree 1-h is underpowered" is not the same as saying that the defensive part of the game is way easier with a shield, but this is mere for discussion sake, semantics and wordplay.  :D


Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: bruce on March 08, 2011, 11:21:40 pm
Alright then ;)

Defense vs melee is much easier, defense vs ranged is... well, somewhat easier. Killing is also quite easy although you can't spam a crowd of peasants as quick as you can with a MW glaive or something, but it's not a problem. I don't find myself "outspammed" by a twohander with a 97 speed rating 1h and 15 agi with 124 wpf, but you do need to be careful about timing and how to counterattack with a onehander (while defense is harder with a polearm, but offense is easier).

It's well balanced, overall. And onehanders saying they need weapons like the spamsword are just silly, no they don't. Hell, a 95 speed sword works a lot of the time, with a 97 speed sword nobody can "spam" you, and that's with a str build.

Non-round shields need a bit of looking at, especially the heraldric shields which are for some reason much weaker then non-heraldric shields and all are much worse then round shields, for some reason.



Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Harafat on March 08, 2011, 11:30:03 pm
+1
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Xant on March 09, 2011, 12:17:13 am
For real, players like Fallen/HRE_Mega, Shogunate_Sonja, Merc_Xant, and many many others who are often on top of the scoreboard with their easiest mode builds would have to work for a simple constant k d of 2 as turtler.

Whoooa now, hold your horses there Michael! How could I be on the top of the scoreboard when I die so much?

Xant, from what I heard from Bjord, you are a decent duelist.
From what I saw from you on the battlefield, you are a horrible (battle) player. You rush, without a shield, forward, and get spammed with ranged shit.
You rush, forward, never look around and get backstabbed by cavalry.
You rush, forward, get outnumbered by a group of enemies and die.

With all this dying and horribleness I'm doing, how could I top the scoreboard? You sure you ain't on some mushrooms, Michael?

(oh yeah also getting a kd of 2.0 as a shielder was possible for me after what, level 14? when I got enough str for my shield and sidesword and a bit of agi)
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Blondin on March 09, 2011, 12:28:37 am

You dont understand your own words.

If it was balanced, your words, it would mean 2h gets more kills but dies a lot (as offense class), 1hshield gets not so much kills but stays alive (as defense class),
that would lead to the same kill death ratio.

But what is the truth?

Every mediocre player with a 2h/pole is on top of the scoreboard all the time.

For real, players like Fallen/HRE_Mega, Shogunate_Sonja, Merc_Xant, and many many others who are often on top of the scoreboard with their easiest mode builds would have to work for a simple constant k d of 2 as turtler.

I am not complaining, I play for fun not for cheap easy kills, but its silly that those noobs complain about side sword or steel pick. When they die against a shielder, its because they cant block shit/ dont understand the game mechanics/ make many mistakes like humans do.

Its somehow balanced in native, but crpg priviliges 2h/polearms too much.

I don't speak very well english, so maybe you don't understand what i wrote, but i can ensure you that i understand my words, may be wrong translation...

I didn't talk of balance (not in this thread, but in another you're right) i've talked of offensive and defensive role, but this 2 class wont lead to the same k/d ratio, a defensive class will necessarily do fewer kills, but it can still die before the end of the round. An offensive class will die sooner , but before that it will do more kills.

But you fail to understand teamwork, it's maybe the most important, and it's why not everybody can do the same thing (and k/d) on the battlefield, everyone has his own role.
I like working with a 2hander, i block a foe with my shield, he kills him with is big sword, nice, my foe is dead.

Tbh, i don't see often noob2handers toping the scoreboard, and as i play both 1h and 2h, i can told you that as a 2hander it's not easy to fight a 1hander in a duel, you should try it.

Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Zisa on March 09, 2011, 03:32:30 am
I think it might be useful to know what weapon type is dealing the killing blow.  A shielder might push back or wound but how many times do they actually kill in comparison to other classes.
Same goes for Archers and polearms. 
It would be interesting to link the names on scoreboards to primary weapon types as well just to see how that scans.
Put it this way.  If kills are dominated by 2 handers to a massive degree then that may raise other questions re class dominance and weapon stats etc.  If it is an even spread with minor variations then we can wind this up and go and get laid.

This is only out of curiosity mind you.  I use a xbow so I don't find it that important.

Perhaps it will interest you that I got top of leader board for a match within a couple hours as a sword and board? Something I can do as a 2h, horse lancer/polearm, and thrower on occasion?

There are dedicated sword and boarders who consistently top the leader board, which leads me to believe people who post all these nerf requests should re-examine their own skills.

I will concede that Crush through weapons are more annoying then even Horse Archers, and infuriating that such a silly predictable attack is immune to a riposte (that's chamber for you philistines).

Speaking of riposte, I got called an OP thrower for riposting an attack with a punch, by the same dude who used to call me spammer after I would block his attacks and kill him. I dunno if he is pulling my leg.

Lastly, if it has not been mentioned already, go read WaltF4's analysis and Formless turn based post in the guide section, that may shed some light on how the game works and perhaps what you could work at.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: woody on March 09, 2011, 03:36:03 am
Just started an alt for polearm and the long hafted blade is way better and more op than any 2h. Crazy fast, lots of reach and seems to do loads of damage cos of head hits.

An heirloomed one would be bonkers.

At least with 2h you have to make a couple of blocks before launching spam attack.

Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Vicious666 on March 09, 2011, 05:58:52 am
i made a k/d  of 8:0 on my last retirement playngn as 1hander  and sometimes as 1 hander on a mameluk   there is nothing wrong on     1handers.  vs  2handers.simply majority of 1hander FAIL

90% fail to understand that thyr stupid  sidesword  103 speed, not allow them to click click click only and win.  you have dead timings too. and you are not faster than a 2 hander. so OMFG yes you need to  attack on the right timing     90% continue use  right from left swing (much slower) even when facehug ppl .

i played all my crpg life with 0 athletics. and continue see  1hander with 7+ athletics fail to outmanouver  the ppl.  , lets say the truth here, an average 1h  is shit, an average 2hander even by only  jump into a group of enemy and swing around    score some kills, is much more easy to kill ppl with 2hander.   but also easy to die .

when a 1hander do 30:5 he have done 3x time the work of a  2hander in terms of swing.   
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Vibe on March 09, 2011, 07:24:48 am
On my lvl30 2hander my usual KD is 2-3, sometimes 4. And I can manually block well.
Then I switch to my lvl 25 one hander toon, with some shit shield (not huscarl ofc) and an axe (read, no sidesword, simply because it is overused) and I get a score of 15-2.

Simply because I know how to position myself and when to lower my shield to attack. That's all you need to know when playing a S&B.

Any twohander that isn't using an axe is a free kill
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Prentyss on March 09, 2011, 09:33:31 am
I don't speak very well english, so maybe you don't understand what i wrote, but i can ensure you that i understand my words, may be wrong translation...

I didn't talk of balance (not in this thread, but in another you're right) i've talked of offensive and defensive role, but this 2 class wont lead to the same k/d ratio, a defensive class will necessarily do fewer kills, but it can still die before the end of the round. An offensive class will die sooner , but before that it will do more kills.

But you fail to understand teamwork, it's maybe the most important, and it's why not everybody can do the same thing (and k/d) on the battlefield, everyone has his own role.
I like working with a 2hander, i block a foe with my shield, he kills him with is big sword, nice, my foe is dead.

Tbh, i don't see often noob2handers toping the scoreboard, and as i play both 1h and 2h, i can told you that as a 2hander it's not easy to fight a 1hander in a duel, you should try it.

On my lvl30 2hander my usual KD is 2-3, sometimes 4. And I can manually block well.
Then I switch to my lvl 25 one hander toon, with some shit shield (not huscarl ofc) and an axe (read, no sidesword, simply because it is overused) and I get a score of 15-2.

Simply because I know how to position myself and when to lower my shield to attack. That's all you need to know when playing a S&B.

Any twohander that isn't using an axe is a free kill

These two quotes should be 'post-it' on beginer's help forum. There is nothing more to say about that. I play as a 2-hander, i'm not a very good player since i don't play for long, but 1H and pikemen are my nightware on battlefield.

As they say, everyone has to learn to play with his build, so just do that.
Title: Re: Two Handed Spam
Post by: Madcat on March 09, 2011, 10:58:23 am
I'm sure that 2handers are responsible for most of the kills. But is this game balanced by kills? If it is, then yes there is a huge imbalance.
I don't think this game is balanced by kills. I think it is intentional that one class will have a easier time killing then another. I think the problem is that the game is poor at rewarding you for doing your job. Like your job is insignificant when it actually can be deciding in winning a round.

Medics in team fortress 2 don't get a lot if any kills but without a medic your team will have a hard time winning.
Machine gunners (deployable light machine guns) in a world war 2 multiplayer shooting game will probably be responsible for most of the kills on your team. But if everyone played machine gunners they would lose without infantry backing them up. If your team consisted only of machine gunners you'd all get blown up by grenades.

It would be the same if one team were only 2 handed users. They would lose to a better balanced team. Too much of one single class and your team becomes vulnerable. Except for maybe horse archers.

So maybe crpg could do a better job of rewarding you for doing your job. Instead of kill scores, maybe it should be point scores