cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Heroin on February 20, 2011, 08:05:32 pm
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DISCLAIMER: IF YOU ARE TOTALLY AGAINST CRUSH-THROUGH IN ANY FORM, PLEASE DO NOT LITTER THIS THREAD WITH YOUR COMMENTS. THERE ARE PLENTY OF THREADS THAT ARE APPROPRIATE FOR CRUSH-HATE. THIS IS NOT ONE OF THEM.
I have now heard from several posts that "the devs have confirmed that the bar mace and long iron mace are losing their crush-through in an upcoming patch."
Can a developer confirm this, or can anyone link to a post in which a developer confirms it?
If this is, in fact, the case, several things should be addressed.
First, taking crush-through away from a weapon that has it fundamentally changes the way that weapon works. The weapons speed/reach/damage/cost should be scrutinized to ensure that this loss does not make the weapon an invalid or inefficient choice.
Secondly, heirlooms take a significant amount of time to get. People heirloom items based on many things, but most of all based on the items stats and abilities. If you fundamentally change the way an item works, people who heirloomed those items should have those heirlooms refunded. (Before anyone says "they abused the heirloom/crush-through mechanic, let them suffer", understand that SOME people may have heirloomed before such mechanics were even known to be the case.)
Last, I would like to address the core issue here. The increase in damage and WEIGHT in particular with heirlooming is what I understand to be the problem, which results in these weapons crushing through with a regularity that was never intended. Why take away a core function of the item, rather than re-balance the heirlooms to ensure that they don't get 90% crush-through? It makes sense to me that you'd simply re-balance something to not be OP, rather than fundamentally alter the way the item works. But perhaps I'm missing something? Feel free to enlighten me.
DISCLAIMER: IF YOU ARE TOTALLY AGAINST CRUSH-THROUGH IN ANY FORM, PLEASE DO NOT LITTER THIS THREAD WITH YOUR COMMENTS. THERE ARE PLENTY OF THREADS THAT ARE APPROPRIATE FOR CRUSH-HATE. THIS IS NOT ONE OF THEM.
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Several devs have said that barmace and long iron mace are losing crushthrough - look through cmpx's and/or fasader's latest posts.
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True story. The only bar maces that crush through reliably are heirloomed ones which increase the weight. If you changed their heirloom progression that would go away.
Maybe just change their progression to the masterwork line? Idk.
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True story. The only bar maces that crush through reliably are heirloomed ones which increase the weight. If you changed their heirloom progression that would go away.
Right, this is my point. Also, I don't use a bar mace on any of my characters, FYI.
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First of all, I think that nerfing the Morningstar made it a useless wep by removing crushtrough.
Secondly, only full strength character with at least 11 powerstrike reliably crush trough with heirloomed crustrough weapons!.
I really hope they don't remove it from cRPG, but just nerf it so that only strength based builds and heirloomed weapons can have a good chance of doing it.
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First of all, I think that nerfing the Morningstar made it a useless wep by removing crushtrough.
I beg to differ.
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Not this again. Personally i think the argument has been discussed far too many times, and there are other more important issues like server lag, throwing imbalance and some weird hitboxes which disrupt the game experience way more and need to be addressed. I don't want the devs to think the main problem currently is crushtrough. If they remove ct from the entire mod just because a few peasants with small shields whine, just uninstall. It's what i would do, no whine no posts, nothing, they're free to patch as they please, if it makes the game unfun for me i am in turn free to leave.
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Do you always give up this easily, Ganon?
Anyway, I also think that rebalancing the longer CT weapons would be enough, without removing their crush-through flag entirely. Maybe CT maxchance should be below 50% no matter what. I never used a CT weapon yet, btw.
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If they can't crushthrough, are they getting more damage as a compensation, so that people who have chosen to heirloom these weapons aren't just getting a Nelson from The Simpsons style "HAH HAH!"
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I beg to differ.
There are much better weapons out there, morningstar was only useful as cav in the past or as crush trough weapon.
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Not this again. Personally i think the argument has been discussed far too many times, and there are other more important issues like server lag, throwing imbalance and some weird hitboxes which disrupt the game experience way more and need to be addressed. I don't want the devs to think the main problem currently is crushtrough. If they remove ct from the entire mod just because a few peasants with small shields whine, just uninstall. It's what i would do, no whine no posts, nothing, they're free to patch as they please, if it makes the game unfun for me i am in turn free to leave.
why people think its only shielders that are fed up with that op crushthru , everyone shield or not cannot block a overhead crushthru , i support the 50% max crushthru , its all about balance.... a superior fighter have a obvious advantage using a 100% go thru crush overhead ,
1-block
2-overhead
3-profit
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Even 50% seems high. Item balance should encourage skill, not spamming (hate using that word, but it fits here) a single attack. Even if you block crush 50% of the time, there is no reason to use any other form of attack with long and fast weapons like these.
I think a reasonable 25% chance on a strength build character is a better figure to work with. The block-crush gives the weapon an edge over non CB weapons, but a CB weapon wielder still needs to practice strategic tactics like feinting.
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There are much better weapons out there, morningstar was only useful as cav in the past or as crush trough weapon.
I'm pretty sure the 1 hit capability of 45 pierce against heavy armor makes it quite useful enough as it is. This, plus it breaks shields quickly... I'm finding it to be quite capable and far from useless. Feel free to ask anyone who gets hit by it.
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If they remove ct from the entire mod just because a few peasants with small shields whine,
Sorry, I use either a 2her, or polearm depending on my character. No shield. Crush through is bullshit. It crushes through my chamber blocks, and THAT is completely retarded.
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Lower the weight to 4 and change the heirlooms so they don't add more weight, but give them something else instead. Done without rendering them useless.
They won't be crushing through often at all then, and would only crush through for steroid users sometimes.
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Sorry, I use either a 2her, or polearm depending on my character. No shield. Crush through is bullshit. It crushes through my chamber blocks, and THAT is completely retarded.
There's no legitimate counter to that point. +1
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Why take away a core function of the item, rather than re-balance the heirlooms to ensure that they don't get 90% crush-through.
Agreed
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Problem is, those items cannot be outspammed, and crushing with them require minimal skill.
IF crushing would kick in only with speed bonus and only with chambered attack and only with sweet spots, it would be ok (if it would deal something around 1/5 hp). Why, you ask me ? Because crush weapon user would be unable to do repeated attacks with his crushing weapon, and IT is real problem of crush mechanic.
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Ok so I was just playing a siege map, as attacker. At the top of the ramp, stands 4 guys ALL the top of their team. With guess what barmace long iron mace ect. We never even got on the walls. Overhead attack after overhead attack It was one of the worst times I've had playing this mod. It's starting to become very frustrating to even bother with this. Needs fix ASAP, come on now!
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This is yet another interesting thread about CT.
Anyways, i was playing 2her for few gens, and i used mostly swords, but when i met agi stacker with shield, how else to counter than crushtrough? And yeah, not every turtle is falling for feinting and such, so it was quite hard to beat them (managed to learn some tricks now tho, so sometimes i get them :P). While i was getting annoyed by shielders, i rolled one, just to get bashed upon with barmace countless times WITHOUT ANY CT at all! That is why i think its OK. If you spec high str, you SHOULD BE ABLE to have more reliable CT, as u put efficiently more power to the hit, shouldnt you?
CT going thru chambers is bollocks tho, i agree on that
Edit: just dont go with nerf CT when u get pwned by str stacker (and yes, there are such people around these days)
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I have 30 str and 10 powerstrike and I sacrificed 7 iron flesh to try out 12 agil and 4ath 3 wpm I am fairly easy to kill compared to my previous build but Regardless I move balls ass slow that is my tradeoff I get wrecked by ranged v.v
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I have 30 str and 10 powerstrike and I sacrificed 7 iron flesh to try out 12 agil and 4ath 3 wpm I am fairly easy to kill compared to my previous build but Regardless I move balls ass slow that is my tradeoff I get wrecked by ranged v.v
Second that. It just pisses off ppl that they got killed in one hit but it dosn't make str builds op. Even with 10PS, chances to do CT, with bar mace are very small, compared to maul and mallet. I'm playing such char right now and it's way more efficient to use sword than bar mace, and mallet\maul is really effective only against shielders.
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Second that. It just pisses off ppl that they got killed in one hit but it dosn't make str builds op. Even with 10PS, chances to do CT, with bar mace are very small, compared to maul and mallet. I'm playing such char right now and it's way more efficient to use sword than bar mace, and mallet\maul is really effective only against shielders.
Have you possess loomed barmace? No ? So stfu. Besides, even all STR barmace cannot be outspammed by others.
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Have you possess loomed barmace? No ? So stfu. Besides, even all STR barmace cannot be outspammed by others.
:lol: kids are so rude these days. So you saying that loomed bar mace has much greater damage than great maul? Other way it won't give you CT more often.
If that's the case then mechanics is clearly broken, but str builds are still easy to defeat, there are few ppl who can play them effectively so don't see a problem with CT in general.
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:lol: kids are so rude these days. So you saying that loomed bar mace has much greater damage than great maul? Other way it won't give you CT more often.
If that's the case then mechanics is clearly broken, but str builds are still easy to defeat, there are few ppl who can play them effectively so don't see a problem with CT in general.
No, i am saying that it have 100% chance for lolcrush with good build, and cannot be outspammed. Damage and weight are factors, with looming both go up.
41b.
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No, i am saying that it have 100% chance for lolcrush with good build, and cannot be outspammed. Damage and weight are factors, with looming both go up.
Souns like a bullshit. What is "good" build? Mind sharing specs of build and weapon stats that give you 100% CT ?
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Souns like a bullshit. What is "good" build? Mind sharing specs of build and weapon stats that give you 100% CT ?
Triple loomed barmace, 30/12. 10 ps if i remember right.
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You don't remember your own build?
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This is yet another interesting thread about CT.
Anyways, i was playing 2her for few gens, and i used mostly swords, but when i met agi stacker with shield, how else to counter than crushtrough? And yeah, not every turtle is falling for feinting and such, so it was quite hard to beat them (managed to learn some tricks now tho, so sometimes i get them :P). While i was getting annoyed by shielders, i rolled one, just to get bashed upon with barmace countless times WITHOUT ANY CT at all! That is why i think its OK. If you spec high str, you SHOULD BE ABLE to have more reliable CT, as u put efficiently more power to the hit, shouldnt you?
CT going thru chambers is bollocks tho, i agree on that
Edit: just dont go with nerf CT when u get pwned by str stacker (and yes, there are such people around these days)
Get an axe. You can hack through any shield relatively quickly. Why is it that folks tend to want 1h/shield players to become easy kills all the time?
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You don't remember your own build?
I don't use barmace, check out my build in build thread.
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Ok. In that case - "cool story bro" :wink:
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Ok. In that case - "cool story bro" :wink:
Do you know guys like Templar_Daymun or Kapikulu_Robin_Hood? They both have all time crushing barmace builds. Ganon also have one.
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Get an axe. You can hack through any shield relatively quickly. Why is it that folks tend to want 1h/shield players to become easy kills all the time?
Agree, beside axe have a better reach. But it's not that fun, part of amusement is tosee how some shielder start "ape shit" as soon as you pull out great maul :D
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CT is ok ( im using it myself and it is awesome :D) but it brings many disadvantages ( archers cant hurt me but throwing keeps killing me) but anyway, i dont know any topscorer except of me using barmace.
So just stop crying about that bad guy crushing through your little 1h sword with his mighty barmace ( heavy barmace, gen 3) and learn how to evade, backpedel is a serious problem for me because barmaces weaponreach is very short (96).
P.S.
If CT gets removed the "unbalanced" bonus has to be removed too, or i want to change my heirlooms.
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Unbalanced bonus? lolwhat.
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Heavy Bar Mace 3090 weight 5
requirement 13
spd rtng 92
weapon length 96
swing damage 38, blunt
thrust damage 0 blunt
Crushtrhough
Unbalanced
Knockdown
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P.S.
If CT gets removed the "unbalanced" bonus has to be removed too, or i want to change my heirlooms.
Oh no don't change your heirlooms whatever you do don't dooooo thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat.... omigawd we have to accept his demands, we got to. :lol:
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+1 troll points for this shit :rolleyes:
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If CT gets removed the "unbalanced" bonus has to be removed too, or i want to change my heirlooms.
Crushtrough gets removed, unbalanced doesn't, you don't get to change your heirlooms.
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Crushtrough gets removed, unbalanced doesn't, you don't get to change your heirlooms.
Hope patch is sooner than latter.
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Crushtrough gets removed, unbalanced doesn't, you don't get to change your heirlooms.
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This thread, CMPXCHG8B, was started with the following statement. Would appreciate if you could address it.
Why take away a core function of the item, rather than re-balance the heirlooms to ensure that they don't get 90% crush-through
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The bar mace does BLUNT damage. Do you not realize how spectacular that is? It's one of the most powerful anti-armor weapons a 2H character can use, entirely worth using without crush, and entirely worth having heirloomed without crush. If your opponent has a shield then try using an axe or bardiche instead. They exist for a reason, you know. Use the right tool for the job.
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This thread, CMPXCHG8B, was started with the following statement. Would appreciate if you could address it.
Ok.
It doesn't make sense from a balance point of view, it's a very powerful mechanic that has no place whatsoever on weapons with 90+ speed / 80+ length.
It doesn't make sense from a realism point of view, especially with a shape/distribution of weight like the Bar Mace.
Therefore, it doesn't make any sense -> removed.
If changing the crush-through calculation and mechanics was possible, we could have found another solution. Unfortunately, it's not.
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Ok.
It doesn't make sense from a balance point of view, it's a very powerful mechanic that has no place whatsoever on weapons with 90+ speed / 80+ length.
It doesn't make sense from a realism point of view, especially with a shape/distribution of weight like the Bar Mace.
Therefore, it doesn't make any sense -> removed.
However, it is a real weapon from early 16th Century England. Go search.
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Well then i have to agree with cmp, mauls and mallets are ok, my fear was that you were going to remove CT totally, which apparently isn't going to happen and i'm glad i didn't heirloom it. Maybe i'll heirloom a great maul or a mallet, very slow, short weapons, nobody can complain about.
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Ok.
It doesn't make sense from a balance point of view, it's a very powerful mechanic that has no place whatsoever on weapons with 90+ speed / 80+ length.
It doesn't make sense from a realism point of view, especially with a shape/distribution of weight like the Bar Mace.
Therefore, it doesn't make any sense -> removed.
If changing the crush-through calculation and mechanics was possible, we could have found another solution. Unfortunately, it's not.
And what about the long iron mace? It's shape/distribution is like a longer, thinner version of the great maul. Crush does make sense on it.
Regarding point 2, the crush mechanics ARE able to be manipulated, simply by altering the weight of the weapons which possess it. From all accounts that I've heard, a non-heirloomed bar mace/LIM does not crush through often, and is not OP. So why not simply take the additional weight away from the heirloomed items?
If your answer, in an official capacity, is really "Crushtrough gets removed, unbalanced doesn't, you don't get to change your heirlooms" I've just lost a lot of faith in the development staff. When making sweeping balance changes that fundamentally alter the way things work for a particular class/build, almost all developers the world over offer the opportunity for individuals using said build to change to a different one without losing their time investment.
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If your answer, in an official capacity, is really "Crushtrough gets removed, unbalanced doesn't, you don't get to change your heirlooms" I've just lost a lot of faith in the development staff. When making sweeping balance changes that fundamentally alter the way things work for a particular class/build, almost all developers the world over offer the opportunity for individuals using said build to change to a different one without losing their time investment.
People knew that the barmace build was fubar, still they went for it. Should they be rewarded for being lame & retarded or should we all laugh at them when they lose their edge?
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The kind of people that hierloomed their bar mace (or at least majority of them) would just use their free respec of hierlooms on another OP thing that will pop up. I couldn't care less about them.
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Is an axe with bonus against shields an option?
Then apparently all you highly skilled 2h guys can break shields and then we can see who can manual block still.
Or I guess only a mere bonus against shields isn't good enough?
Need to ignore the shield / parry completely?
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The kind of people that hierloomed their bar mace (or at least majority of them) would just use their free respec of hierlooms on another OP thing that will pop up. I couldn't care less about them.
Just like throwing hybrids. They flock to the most powerful thing at the time with no dignity or honor like piglets to the teat (lol). Don't get me wrong though.. I do not at all mind pure throwers. I DO mind throwing hybrids. EX. = 75-90 pts in throwing 70-80 pts in melee skill, or if they have 5 power throw + 5 power strike.
No one can call me an op abuser.. I run around with a f****** dagger. :(
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People knew that the barmace build was fubar, still they went for it. Should they be rewarded for being lame & retarded or should we all laugh at them when they lose their edge?
Some people may have heirloomed it without knowing that. As a matter of fact, in order for anyone to even KNOW that to begin with, SOMEONE had to heirloom it first. Taking a month of grinding away from a player for a developer screwup is simply not fair. A month, being an approximation of time it would take a casual player to heirloom something 3 times.
EDIT: Furthermore, it's not a reward, so much as simply getting what they have already earned. They put their time in to heirloom an item that had specified stats. Changing those stats should allow respec of the heirloom. I'm not advocating this only for these particular weapons, but for ANY and ALL weapons which are changed in a way that completely alters their role.
If the developers would allow something like this to pass unchecked, I'd likely leave the cRPG community. I don't want to be part of something in which the developers care so little for the time investment their players put into the game.
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Some people may have heirloomed it without knowing that. As a matter of fact, in order for anyone to even KNOW that to begin with, SOMEONE had to heirloom it first. Taking a month of grinding away from a player for a developer screwup is simply not fair. A month, being an approximation of time it would take a casual player to heirloom something 3 times.
EDIT: Furthermore, it's not a reward, so much as simply getting what they have already earned. They put their time in to heirloom an item that had specified stats. Changing those stats should allow respec of the heirloom. I'm not advocating this only for these particular weapons, but for ANY and ALL weapons which are changed in a way that completely alters their role.
I'd agree with Heroin. Month+ of time investment down the drain if there's no respec option for heirlooms.
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We need heirloom respec in general for us undecisive people anyway. :D
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I sold my masterwork german sword at start after big patch because upkeep was broken=/ can I have it back?
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I sold my masterwork german sword at start after big patch because upkeep was broken=/ can I have it back?
If you retire 3 more times :D
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I'd agree with Heroin. Month+ of time investment down the drain if there's no respec option for heirlooms.
I'd agree too if every weapon was changed, or animation, or something that involve a lot of people, respec would be necessary.
However for people that heirloomed a weapon cuz they knew it was broken, i say "bah screw them".
They can always wait and try to trade it once it is possible.
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Err wut?
So...
Suddenly a 3rd gen Bar Mace is useless entirely because it loses it's crush through ability? Shut up, get the hell out of here.
Heirlooms should be perm, that's my theory.
You don't inherit something from your Grandpa then years later decide that you would have rather inherited something other than what you got. Plainly said, fuck off.
+ as stated earlier, all these bar mace users would just go to the next big OP thing, they don't care they just want easy kills, let them suffer with their 'useless' maces.
Pretty sure 3rd gen Bar mace is 39 blunt damage, if you consider that weapon useless then, well I don't know what to say about that.
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You don't inherit something from your Grandpa then years later decide that you would have rather inherited something other than what you got. Plainly said, fuck off.
Yeah because when you inherit something from your grandpa it suddenly loses abilities overnight.
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Some people may have heirloomed it without knowing that. As a matter of fact, in order for anyone to even KNOW that to begin with, SOMEONE had to heirloom it first. Taking a month of grinding away from a player for a developer screwup is simply not fair. A month, being an approximation of time it would take a casual player to heirloom something 3 times.
EDIT: Furthermore, it's not a reward, so much as simply getting what they have already earned. They put their time in to heirloom an item that had specified stats. Changing those stats should allow respec of the heirloom. I'm not advocating this only for these particular weapons, but for ANY and ALL weapons which are changed in a way that completely alters their role.
If the developers would allow something like this to pass unchecked, I'd likely leave the cRPG community. I don't want to be part of something in which the developers care so little for the time investment their players put into the game.
QQ moar, this is beta mod, do you think developers refunded anything in the big titles, during their beta? Though luck.
The two first loomed barmace users where daymun & banok. True they probably wouldnt have known how broken it would turn out, but if they looked the at file, they could have gotten a hunch.
Last but not least, you are forgetting that we recently got to repick our looms, lots of people picked barmace then, so take your 30days and stuff it. They knew it was broken, fix was inevitable, they still chose it.
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I agree with you Babelfish. Simply put barmace is a known cheap weapon, with plans to be "fixed" Even without 90% CT it is still a very good weapon, or at least on a similar lvl of most 2h's. So me personally, I laugh at the cheap and very much Lame method many go with to get an easy kill. At peak, i think CT should only be about 20 -30% of strikes....EVER
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Every other weapon in the game that has the "unbalanced" flag either has bonus vs shield, or crushthrough to make up for the unbalanced flag. Removing CT, but keeping the "unbalanced" flag, and not refunding heirlooms for an item who's role will change significantly is simply wrong. Anyone who thinks otherwise is obviously a hateful, vindictive person who doesn't care about anyone but themselves.
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Anyone who thinks otherwise is obviously a hateful, vindictive person who doesn't care about anyone but themselves.
No you are wrong. I don't care only about those people using loomed barmace. I have no problem with anyone else.
EDIT: Also, mancleaver says hi.
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Without CT Barmace becomes a shitty weapon that has so many better alternatives. "O but wait for trading" does nothing, why would anyone want to trade their looms for BM?
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No you are wrong. I don't care only about those people using loomed barmace. I have no problem with anyone else.
EDIT: Also, mancleaver says hi.
Ok, so why are you advocating punishing non-heirloomed barmace users? Your response is full of fail.
Loomed stats aside, a normal barmace will be "unbalanced" with no positive flag to counterbalance it. It will be one of only 2 weapons in the game to be unbalanced and not have a positive flag(the other being the long iron mace, which is also said to be losing CT.)
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Ok, so why are you advocating punishing non-heirloomed barmace users? Your response is full of fail.
Loomed stats aside, a normal barmace will be "unbalanced" with no positive flag to counterbalance it.
What the hell are you talking about? I said I don't agree with respeccing hierlooms. How is that punishing non-hierloomed weapons?
It will be one of only 2 weapons in the game to be unbalanced and not have a positive flag(the other being the long iron mace, which is also said to be losing CT.)
Mancleaver still says hi.
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After CT gets removed, Warcleaver will be much better than Barmace at everything.
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I'm not discussing it's usefulness, just saying that there is another unbalanced weapon with no positive flag.
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Don't refund, it's been known to be OP for a while now. Stick with your convictions.
However do remove the unbalanced tag, I would like to see the bar mace still be a viable weapon.
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what about people who heriloomed bar mace pre-patch and instinctively respeced it after the patch, or have been playing with it for a long time, it was never considered OP before?
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The Morningstar was a better choice before for crush through abuse.
Also, I believe the previous heirlooms didn't add weight
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what about people who heriloomed bar mace pre-patch and instinctively respeced it after the patch, or have been playing with it for a long time, it was never considered OP before?
What'd you like me to say? If you can prove you've used the bar mace since x amount of months ago you should be able to respec? I mean common if everyone got to respec their looms after their weapons got balanced out shit would just get retarded. And I'm assuming most who loomed the bar mace were/are just looking for easy kills so Ill also assume that they will respec into the next broken weapon. Let's make them work for it shall we? (Yes I know Im an ass.)
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I would just like to add that Daymun was using the barmace before retirement was even in the mod.
It adds nothing to the discussion, just wanted to point it out.
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what about people who heriloomed bar mace pre-patch and instinctively respeced it after the patch, or have been playing with it for a long time, it was never considered OP before?
Well ... ?
If they didn't heirloom it for crushthrough abusability, why should they even want to respec as soon as crushthrough abusability is taken away?
Sure, maybe they have different character now without appropriate wpf, like in my case, but I am not so lucky that my weapon is OP so I get a free repick and I just deal with it. Like everyone else.
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I like the mauls and mallets the way they are. Well maybe a bit higher str requirement but meh. I would actually want to use the barmace and long iron onion more if they did a little more damage and didnt have crushthrough/unbalanced. The morningstar? I dont use it but shield damage/pierce through armor? Heh kick ass weapon to make all the worthless 2h axes cry. Those poor 2h axes.. already made worthless by polearm axes and now this. LoL
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After CT gets removed, Warcleaver will be much better than Barmace at everything.
Barmace has knockdown and blunt damage so your assertion is highly debatable.
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If they didn't heirloom it for crushthrough abusability, why should they even want to respec as soon as crushthrough abusability is taken away?
There is a HUGE difference between removing "crush-through abusability" and crush-through in general, which is what this thread was about to begin with. I agree with them toning down the weapons so that the heirloomed version only crushes as often as the regular version, which would require lowering the weight/damage. I am NOT ok with taking away a fundamental part of the weapon without refunding heirlooms.
My entire point is, balancing things requires a scalpal, and it seems like the devs are using a great maul on this one. Rather than balancing it the way it was meant to work, they're just completely altering it's role in the game.
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DISCLAIMER: IF YOU ARE TOTALLY AGAINST CRUSH-THROUGH IN ANY FORM, PLEASE DO NOT LITTER THIS THREAD WITH YOUR COMMENTS. THERE ARE PLENTY OF THREADS THAT ARE APPROPRIATE FOR CRUSH-HATE. THIS IS NOT ONE OF THEM.
I have now heard from several posts that "the devs have confirmed that the bar mace and long iron mace are losing their crush-through in an upcoming patch."
Can a developer confirm this, or can anyone link to a post in which a developer confirms it?
If this is, in fact, the case, several things should be addressed.
First, taking crush-through away from a weapon that has it fundamentally changes the way that weapon works. The weapons speed/reach/damage/cost should be scrutinized to ensure that this loss does not make the weapon an invalid or inefficient choice.
Secondly, heirlooms take a significant amount of time to get. People heirloom items based on many things, but most of all based on the items stats and abilities. If you fundamentally change the way an item works, people who heirloomed those items should have those heirlooms refunded. (Before anyone says "they abused the heirloom/crush-through mechanic, let them suffer", understand that SOME people may have heirloomed before such mechanics were even known to be the case.)
Last, I would like to address the core issue here. The increase in damage and WEIGHT in particular with heirlooming is what I understand to be the problem, which results in these weapons crushing through with a regularity that was never intended. Why take away a core function of the item, rather than re-balance the heirlooms to ensure that they don't get 90% crush-through? It makes sense to me that you'd simply re-balance something to not be OP, rather than fundamentally alter the way the item works. But perhaps I'm missing something? Feel free to enlighten me. :D
DISCLAIMER: IF YOU ARE TOTALLY AGAINST CRUSH-THROUGH IN ANY FORM, PLEASE DO NOT LITTER THIS THREAD WITH YOUR COMMENTS. THERE ARE PLENTY OF THREADS THAT ARE APPROPRIATE FOR CRUSH-HATE. THIS IS NOT ONE OF THEM.
I agree that two hand maces should be repurposed, possibly by adding damage removing unbalanced with crushthrough and mebbe adding bonus vs shields so it can still be a shield buster
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The crush through mechanic was introduced to counter the worst turtles. I am ok with removing it, so long as some of these gd shields actually break. I watched a metal shield survive 50 bec hits, and the guy was not trying to swing back - THAT is why crush through got introduced.
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The crush through mechanic was introduced to counter the worst turtles. I am ok with removing it, so long as some of these gd shields actually break. I watched a metal shield survive 50 bec hits, and the guy was not trying to swing back - THAT is why crush through got introduced.
Crushthrough also affects obliterates manual blocks and chambers.
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There is a HUGE difference between removing "crush-through abusability" and crush-through in general, which is what this thread was about to begin with. I agree with them toning down the weapons so that the heirloomed version only crushes as often as the regular version, which would require lowering the weight/damage. I am NOT ok with taking away a fundamental part of the weapon without refunding heirlooms.
My entire point is, balancing things requires a scalpal, and it seems like the devs are using a great maul on this one. Rather than balancing it the way it was meant to work, they're just completely altering it's role in the game.
Unfortunate after 30 years of watching, playing, testing games. ONLINE RPGS are often governed by the rule of whine
Whine enough and the devs USUALLY nerf the "whine target" into the realm of the worthless
I can't name a beta in my twenty years of playtesting that didn't work exactly like that
And never does a RPG developer goes backwards from a full nerf in my experience
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I agree that two hand maces should be repurposed, possibly by adding damage removing unbalanced with crushthrough and mebbe adding bonus vs shields so it can still be a shield buster
See, this solution would be fine. But a solution is required.
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Lol @ the bonus v shields suggestion. Why should these be the only blunt weapons to have it? because their CT got removed? Iron staff doesn't have CT, it's blunt, so by your arguements it should have a bonus v shields as well lawl.
Simply removing the unbalanced tag (and maybe a 1-2 point buf in speed) will put the BM on the same level as the great swords. Damage is not an issue wth the bar mace I regulary get 1-2 hitted by side swings.
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Leave Barmace as it is and learn to play...
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The crush through mechanic was introduced to counter the worst turtles. I am ok with removing it, so long as some of these gd shields actually break. I watched a metal shield survive 50 bec hits, and the guy was not trying to swing back - THAT is why crush through got introduced.
Always wondered from where people know such things :rolleyes:.Who said to you?Armagan?
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Leave Barmace as it is and learn to play...
tosk :)
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Simply removing the unbalanced tag (and maybe a 1-2 point buf in speed) will put the BM on the same level as the great swords. Damage is not an issue wth the bar mace I regulary get 1-2 hitted by side swings.
This is a good suggestion as well. I'm not opposed to solutions, people. But there DOES need to be a solution. Unbalanced and slow with no plus side? No thanks. I can get a sword that is longer, faster, and does relatively the same damage to an armored opponent.
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This is a good suggestion as well. I'm not opposed to solutions, people. But there DOES need to be a solution. Unbalanced and slow with no plus side? No thanks. I can get a sword that is longer, faster, and does relatively the same damage to an armored opponent.
Knockdown and high blunt damage is not enough??
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The crush through mechanic was introduced to counter the worst turtles. I am ok with removing it, so long as some of these gd shields actually break. I watched a metal shield survive 50 bec hits, and the guy was not trying to swing back - THAT is why crush through got introduced.
That's because he wasn't using an axe. A masterwork huscarl with about 8 shield skill takes 12 hits with a broad one-handed battle axe with 4 PS. That's fine with me, since, in battle, it's never taken me more than four or five hits. It's faster, with, say, a long war axe and more PS.
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Knockdown and high blunt damage is not enough??
On a slow, unbalanced weapon that you're never going to hit a skilled opponent with? Nope, it most certainly is NOT enough. It will be outclassed by TONS of swords that are, again, "longer, faster, and about equal in damage to it".
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On a slow, unbalanced weapon that you're never going to hit a skilled opponent with? Nope, it most certainly is NOT enough. It will be outclassed by TONS of swords that are, again, "longer, faster, and about equal in damage to it".
Slow? It has the same speed that the Sword of War has.
Unbalanced? What's the big deal with that anyway? It's only a problem for feint spammers.
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On a slow, unbalanced weapon that you're never going to hit a skilled opponent with? Nope, it most certainly is NOT enough. It will be outclassed by TONS of swords that are, again, "longer, faster, and about equal in damage to it".
Ok, this argument works for me. Now buff my mancleaver.
Unbalanced? What's the big deal with that anyway? It's only a problem for feint spammers.
In duels unbalanced can totally fuck you because you can't emergency correct to pull your swing in order to block or swap attack directions. It's a huge drawback against skilled opponents. Also it makes it far easier to TK when idiot teammates run in front of you in their kill-greed-frenzy as once your swing has started fully you can't stop the swing like with any other weapon without the unbalanced tag. Unbalanced is actually quite a huge penalty.
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On a slow, unbalanced weapon that you're never going to hit a skilled opponent with? Nope, it most certainly is NOT enough. It will be outclassed by TONS of swords that are, again, "longer, faster, and about equal in damage to it".
Well not every weapon can be equal. It might come as a shock to you, but there exist people in this mod that take style over effectiveness (not only speaking of my clan). If every weapon was on par, this would be a boring and linear experience.
So of-course there should be weapons far better then this -cheap- weapon. But for a blunt weapon, it has high speed & damage (its actually as fast as the best swords) with equal damage (+ its blunt, better vs armored targets). The downside is of-course the unbalanced aspect of the weapon.
The barmace and weapons like it, was never duel weapons, its effective in battles where people are less prone to block. If you want to have nice fights with skilled opponents pick another weapon..
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Well not every weapon can be equal. It might come as a shock to you, but there exist people in this mod that take style over effectiveness (not only speaking of my clan). If every weapon was on par, this would be a boring and linear experience.
So of-course there should be weapons far better then this -cheap- weapon. But for a blunt weapon, it has high speed & damage (its actually as fast as the best swords) with equal damage (+ its blunt, better vs armored targets). The downside is of-course the unbalanced aspect of the weapon.
The barmace and weapons like it, was never duel weapons, its effective in battles where people are less prone to block. If you want to have nice fights with skilled opponents pick another weapon..
Lol, your clan kept on whining about buffing the katana and nodachi untill you were satisfied lol.
The occasional crushtrough on 6-7 ps/no heirloom is the only reason to choose the weapon right now, besides the OP heirloomed version. There are better high tier weapons out there imo, I would even choose the Morningstar above this.
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Lol, your clan kept on whining about buffing the katana and nodachi untill you were satisfied lol.
The occasional crushtrough on 6-7 ps/no heirloom is the only reason to choose the weapon right now, besides the OP heirloomed version. There are better high tier weapons out there imo, I would even choose the Morningstar above this.
Off-topic: Only partial true, they reduced the speed, we did not like it. They gave us back the speed and nerfed the weight instead. I think it was the shogunate that wanted the nodachi to regain its former stats, we had nothing to do with that.
The katana we now use are worse then pre-big-patch.
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Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing less barmaces on the battlefield. It's kind of an exotic weapon. Same holds true for katana and nodachi, dadao and miadao. In general, there are too many ninjas in the game. I say nerf lamellar armor :).
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Slow? It has the same speed that the Sword of War has.
Unbalanced? What's the big deal with that anyway? It's only a problem for feint spammers.
its overhand cannot be spammed, this piece of shit is cheap and OP
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Also it makes it far easier to TK when idiot teammates run in front of you in their kill-greed-frenzy as once your swing has started fully you can't stop the swing like with any other weapon without the unbalanced tag.
That's not a penalty, Gorath.
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I'm not sure if you are serious, but yes it is. Kind of the only advantage the bec has currently over long hafted mace. Might be not big enough though.
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Ok.
It doesn't make sense from a balance point of view, it's a very powerful mechanic that has no place whatsoever on weapons with 90+ speed / 80+ length.
It doesn't make sense from a realism point of view, especially with a shape/distribution of weight like the Bar Mace.
Therefore, it doesn't make any sense -> removed.
If changing the crush-through calculation and mechanics was possible, we could have found another solution. Unfortunately, it's not.
its a shame you can't change the mechanics so I guess removing it is the only option and very reasonable. BUT refusing to rebalance the weapon after you remove its key feature is just immature/lazy/mean
Crushtrough gets removed, unbalanced doesn't, you don't get to change your heirlooms.
PS: it needs a new stab animation too.
Obviously we cant DEMAND stuff, but its a legitmate request and blanket refusal is just griefing your playerbase.
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This is why no one can argue bar mace current stats will be balanced without crush though:
Long Hafted Spiked Mace 4745
weight 3
requirement 13
spd rtng 94
weapon length 138
swing damage 34, blunt (1 less damage)
thrust damage 20 blunt
Knockdown
Bar Mace 5150
weight 4.5
requirement 13
spd rtng 92 (SLOWER)
weapon length 96 (MUCH LESS REACH)
swing damage 35, blunt
thrust damage 0 blunt (NO STAB)
Unbalanced (OMG)
Knockdown
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BUT refusing to rebalance the weapon after you remove its key feature is just immature/lazy/mean
It's funny how "not removing unbalanced" becomes "refusing to rebalance the weapon". Did I say anything about not changing other stats?
Thinking before posting wouldn't hurt.
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Can you please give the 2h thrust animation on the long iron mace back :D
It's one of the reasons I no longer use it as the pole thrust on a short weapon makes it feel weird and not to say very short range.
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Touche
Refusal to rebalance the weapon just seemed implied by the way you pretty much were like:
STFU you barmacers ent getting shit, so you can just rage quit or grind to 31 again. this is our game, QQ bundle of sticks!
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In reading between the lines of this thread, I do not understand why having had a 1:3 heirloom respec in January matters in deciding to implement another heirloom respec in the next patch. This is supposed to be a fun game for everyone to play, and people are supposed to change their minds, playstyles, desires etc. This is not about control, or parents setting rules and children abiding by them, or learning lessons from lost opportunities or mistakes, or anything else. This is an online game to provide adults as well as children with fun, an escape from reality, an opportunity to bond with each other, and enjoy our lives just a little bit more. This is the point of Mods, and my understanding of cRPG, so why so much reluctance to make everyone happy? I honestly do not get it.
Allowing everyone to respect heirlooms 1:1 provides
- Everyone who owns any heirloomed item being significantly changed with an exchange option so they do not feel they lost time
- Provides opportunity for players to try different play styles without feeling they wasted time on previously heirloomed armor or weapons
For example, someone who invested heirlooms into heavy armor and plays heavy strength, can decide instead to play light armor with high agility without feeling they wasted time if they change play styles, or worse they decide not to change playstyle to avoid feeling they wasted time. Same applies to the Bar Mace, except that a core functionality of the Bar Mace is being removed.
Help me understand why the process of polishing an excellent game and maintaining integrity of balance is in contradiction to helping everyone feel happy? Character and heirloom respecs allow for all of this to occur all at once.
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That's not a penalty, Gorath.
Um... I'm gonna take this as a "LOL! Oh you" type of comment rather than assume you were serious. So in that vein: Pshaw, oh you....
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Ok, this argument works for me. Now buff my mancleaver.
In duels unbalanced can totally fuck you because you can't emergency correct to pull your swing in order to block or swap attack directions. It's a huge drawback against skilled opponents. Also it makes it far easier to TK when idiot teammates run in front of you in their kill-greed-frenzy as once your swing has started fully you can't stop the swing like with any other weapon without the unbalanced tag. Unbalanced is actually quite a huge penalty.
This. I agree. Remove unbalanced from the mancleaver too, imo.
In reading between the lines of this thread, I do not understand why having had a 1:3 heirloom respec in January matters in deciding to implement another heirloom respec in the next patch. This is supposed to be a fun game for everyone to play, and people are supposed to change their minds, playstyles, desires etc. This is not about control, or parents setting rules and children abiding by them, or learning lessons from lost opportunities or mistakes, or anything else. This is an online game to provide adults as well as children with fun, an escape from reality, an opportunity to bond with each other, and enjoy our lives just a little bit more. This is the point of Mods, and my understanding of cRPG, so why so much reluctance to make everyone happy? I honestly do not get it.
Allowing everyone to respect heirlooms 1:1 provides
- Everyone who owns any heirloomed item being significantly changed with an exchange option so they do not feel they lost time
- Provides opportunity for players to try different play styles without feeling they wasted time on previously heirloomed armor or weapons
For example, someone who invested heirlooms into heavy armor and plays heavy strength, can decide instead to play light armor with high agility without feeling they wasted time if they change play styles, or worse they decide not to change playstyle to avoid feeling they wasted time. Same applies to the Bar Mace, except that a core functionality of the Bar Mace is being removed.
Help me understand why the process of polishing an excellent game and maintaining integrity of balance is in contradiction to helping everyone feel happy? Character and heirloom respecs allow for all of this to occur all at once.
Great post, Blackstone. I think this should be copied, written into a script, and forced to pop up on every devs screen, for every game/mod in existence, every 24 hours, just to ensure that they maintain a perspective that there are real people attached to those anonymous names they see on the forums.
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If you feel like you waste time by playing this game you should stop right now.
"Ppl waste time"... That make me laught... why do you play this mod? To have fun or to grind your super uber heirloom weapon and your super uber build to pwn every noobs...
I don't get it...
If dev choose (or have) to take away all my heirlooms, take away all my equip, reset my alts or even reset everything, well, i'll continue to play this mod, cos i play to enjoy the game, not to masturbate on my char and his equip...
Plz don't feel offended, i just want to remember the "essence" of this mod.
And i don't feel dev own me anything, they don't receive salary, i didn't pay for this mod (except donation) and one day if they lose the fun in creating this mod, they just stop and it's'over.
..
Btw, if dev choose to give you free heirlooms or a new crushtrough uber weapon, that's fine, i don't care either, i'll continue to play and adapt to find a way to kill you, that's the challenge. I don't find challenge in pwning everybody that's why i stopped playing sp.
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Unfortunate after 30 years of watching, playing, testing games. ONLINE RPGS are often governed by the rule of whine
Whine enough and the devs USUALLY nerf the "whine target" into the realm of the worthless
I can't name a beta in my twenty years of playtesting that didn't work exactly like that
And never does a RPG developer goes backwards from a full nerf in my experience
Archery.
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Archery.
Goretooth usually tops the scoreboards on his archer generations, as well as his melee generations. Just goes to show, a good player is a good player, regardless of class. Same for baddies.
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In reading between the lines of this thread, I do not understand why having had a 1:3 heirloom respec in January matters in deciding to implement another heirloom respec in the next patch. This is supposed to be a fun game for everyone to play, and people are supposed to change their minds, playstyles, desires etc. This is not about control, or parents setting rules and children abiding by them, or learning lessons from lost opportunities or mistakes, or anything else. This is an online game to provide adults as well as children with fun, an escape from reality, an opportunity to bond with each other, and enjoy our lives just a little bit more. This is the point of Mods, and my understanding of cRPG, so why so much reluctance to make everyone happy? I honestly do not get it.
Allowing everyone to respect heirlooms 1:1 provides
- Everyone who owns any heirloomed item being significantly changed with an exchange option so they do not feel they lost time
- Provides opportunity for players to try different play styles without feeling they wasted time on previously heirloomed armor or weapons
For example, someone who invested heirlooms into heavy armor and plays heavy strength, can decide instead to play light armor with high agility without feeling they wasted time if they change play styles, or worse they decide not to change playstyle to avoid feeling they wasted time. Same applies to the Bar Mace, except that a core functionality of the Bar Mace is being removed.
Help me understand why the process of polishing an excellent game and maintaining integrity of balance is in contradiction to helping everyone feel happy? Character and heirloom respecs allow for all of this to occur all at once.
Great post much better worded than I could achieve. This is related to why I get a bit pissed at this mod sometimes, I almost feel sometimes like the developers want to encourage us to grind. This is a common strategy in subscription MMOs, but nonsensical in profit free mods ;)
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This is why no one can argue bar mace current stats will be balanced without crush though:
Long Hafted Spiked Mace 4745
weight 3
requirement 13
spd rtng 94
weapon length 138
swing damage 34, blunt (1 less damage)
thrust damage 20 blunt
Knockdown
Bar Mace 5150
weight 4.5
requirement 13
spd rtng 92 (SLOWER)
weapon length 96 (MUCH LESS REACH)
swing damage 35, blunt
thrust damage 0 blunt (NO STAB)
Unbalanced (OMG)
Knockdown
2 speed points do not have a noticeable difference in the 90's and that reach is more than enough with enough athletics,
stab who gives a shit
if it is unbalanced wy cant I spam its overhand so it doesnt crush through and rape me?
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Hate to say it but both those weapons are OP imo.
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If possible the crush-through property should be more fluid depending on the user and the target. Say, if the target is really strong, then he should have high chances of resisting it.
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2 speed points do not have a noticeable difference in the 90's and that reach is more than enough with enough athletics,
stab who gives a shit
if it is unbalanced wy cant I spam its overhand so it doesnt crush through and rape me?
Read the thread, manofwar. This isn't about whether or not the current heirloomed barmace is OP or not. We KNOW it's OP. This thread is a discussion about how best to fix that problem, without OVERnerfing the barmace.
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If possible the crush-through property should be more fluid depending on the user and the target. Say, if the target is really strong, then he should have high chances of resisting it.
Its a nice idea, but I'm 90% certain that crush-through is hard-coded. It certainly would give a whole new aspect to the game
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Removing crush from the bar mace and long iron fixes everything wrong with them. 35 blunt damage makes the bar mace the weapon of choice against armor for 2H users. Against heavy armor few other 2H weapons can compete with these maces, those being the Sarranid battle axe, great bardiche, morning star, and flamburger[sic]. Except against heirloomed black armor like Goretooth's the bar mace still does more damage. Heirloom weapon bonuses puts things further in the bar mace's favor for damage against heavy armor.
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Its a nice idea, but I'm 90% certain that crush-through is hard-coded. It certainly would give a whole new aspect to the game
I thought that's how it works already? dunno but I thought the higher PS you have the less chance they can crush on you obviously having a heavy weapon helps a lot.
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I thought that's how it works already? dunno but I thought the higher PS you have the less chance they can crush on you obviously having a heavy weapon helps a lot.
Nope, the only things that matters on the blocking side is weapon/shield weight (and type, polearms and 2h got a slight bonus).
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Removing crush from the bar mace and long iron fixes everything wrong with them. 35 blunt damage makes the bar mace the weapon of choice against armor for 2H users. Against heavy armor few other 2H weapons can compete with these maces, those being the Sarranid battle axe, great bardiche, morning star, and flamburger[sic]. Except against heirloomed black armor like Goretooth's the bar mace still does more damage. Heirloom weapon bonuses puts things further in the bar mace's favor for damage against heavy armor.
All of those other weapons you mentioned have a plus side in exchange for having the "unbalanced" flag. They all have bonus vs. shield. Unbalanced weapons should have either bonus vs. shield, or crush-through. Failing that, they should not have the unbalanced flag. I really don't see why people are complaining about the idea that, if you remove the positive flag that makes them "OP"(as opposed to simply lowering the weight to balance them), you also remove the negative flag that accompanies that positive flag.
Items typically have the "unbalanced" flag BECAUSE they have the positive of CT or BvS. In taking away that bonus, it only makes sense to also remove the negative flag that was there to balance the positive to begin with.
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All of those other weapons you mentioned have a plus side in exchange for having the "unbalanced" flag. They all have bonus vs. shield.
You are imagining things. Some weapons have bonus vs shield without unbalanced tag, some have the unbalanced tag and don't have bonus vs shield or crushthrough.
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All the other weapons I mentioned also do less damage against heavy armor, except the flamberge which costs twice as much as the bar mace. I think that's fair. The bar mace is not an all-purpose weapon. Take crush away from both maces in question, take unbalanced away from the long iron mace, give the bar mace +1 blunt damage. I think that's fair.
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You are imagining things. Some weapons have bonus vs shield without unbalanced tag, some have the unbalanced tag and don't have bonus vs shield or crushthrough.
ONE. One weapon in the entire game has "unbalanced" without having any bonus. And in my opinion, and the opinion of many others, that one weapon should NOT have the unbalanced flag. There is no reason for it, and it makes the weapon sub-par.
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In reading between the lines of this thread, I do not understand why having had a 1:3 heirloom respec in January matters in deciding to implement another heirloom respec in the next patch. This is supposed to be a fun game for everyone to play, and people are supposed to change their minds, playstyles, desires etc. This is not about control, or parents setting rules and children abiding by them, or learning lessons from lost opportunities or mistakes, or anything else. This is an online game to provide adults as well as children with fun, an escape from reality, an opportunity to bond with each other, and enjoy our lives just a little bit more. This is the point of Mods, and my understanding of cRPG, so why so much reluctance to make everyone happy? I honestly do not get it.
Allowing everyone to respect heirlooms 1:1 provides
- Everyone who owns any heirloomed item being significantly changed with an exchange option so they do not feel they lost time
- Provides opportunity for players to try different play styles without feeling they wasted time on previously heirloomed armor or weapons
For example, someone who invested heirlooms into heavy armor and plays heavy strength, can decide instead to play light armor with high agility without feeling they wasted time if they change play styles, or worse they decide not to change playstyle to avoid feeling they wasted time. Same applies to the Bar Mace, except that a core functionality of the Bar Mace is being removed.
Help me understand why the process of polishing an excellent game and maintaining integrity of balance is in contradiction to helping everyone feel happy? Character and heirloom respecs allow for all of this to occur all at once.
Agreed, and all i have spoken to in the game also agrees. retirement allows respec.. but not fully as heirlooms remains the same.
i say let let everyone trade 1:1 heirlooms, no sense making it locked when it adds nothing and removes alot of versatiliy.
PS: also blackstone, you should make a suggestion topic just for this if you havent already
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There will be a heirloom trade so you will be able to trade your heirlooms for another which suits your current playstyle better.
I dont see a point why to change current system. And ppl get info about what is going to be added into game before making
"fixing" threads or posts...
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I would not remove the unbalanced tag from crushthrough weapons. The Bec got nerfed because it dealt 36 blunt damage and had knocked down and was seen as being over powered. So if you remove the unbalanced tag from the crushthrough weapons you will simply be making an overpowered weapon from a very overpowered weapon. Leave the unbalanced tag and damage as it is, just remove crushthrough.
Then these weapons will become what the warhammer is for 1 handers a tool to do a specific job, namely killing tin cans.
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ONE. One weapon in the entire game has "unbalanced" without having any bonus. And in my opinion, and the opinion of many others, that one weapon should NOT have the unbalanced flag. There is no reason for it, and it makes the weapon sub-par.
You're ignoring the whole statement. Some weapons have bonus vs shield without being unbalanced, like the GLA and poleaxes, and 1h axes. It's not a 1:1 mapping. Some weapons have multiple downsides (all the other crushing weapons bar maces) - for instance mauls and long maul are not only unbalanced, but also either short and slow or just terrifically slow. It's not a "unbalanced for X attribute". Hell, imagine the joy of polearm users if we could make the GLA unbalanced in order to get crush through block with it? Heh.
The barmace/iron mace are still terrific anti-armour weapons which also knockdown even with the unbalanced tag. Without it, they're... well. As fast as swords with lots of blunt damage and knockdown, at expense of somewhat shorter range? Too good to be true?
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Having seen the change thats decided there's not much left to debate and like I thought basically a fullscale nerf instead of a repurpose of a good weapon that I had at plus one for eleven generations and I guess almost six months of this mod(of my twelve in this game I used it before it was FOTM)
PS make Great Long Axe a twohand/polearm like in native thx
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Without the crush through bar mace and iron mace leaving their unbalanced sadly it would make using 2h for blunt kinda a waste when pole have longer, have thrust, balanced and same damage blunt weapons.
But cmpxchg8b said there will be some stats changed too to make it useful so all I have to say is wait and see.
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pole have longer, have thrust, balanced and same damage blunt weapons.
Sounds like that isn't too balanced (and yes, since the boost to long hafted spiked mace the weapon is a bit too good with knockdown + great blunt damage). Blunt is a great armour killer, shouldn't be dispensed too easily now armour is actually rare on the battlefield and should in theory mean something.
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PS make Great Long Axe a twohand/polearm like in native thx
It'd be far too OP. What 2her would use anything else?
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I would not remove the unbalanced tag from crushthrough weapons.
Reading is ftw. No one ever asked to remove unbalanced and keep crushthrough.
You're ignoring the whole statement.
And you're comparing apples to oranges. One-handers and polearms both bring other things to the table than two-handers. And you're attempting to justify the overnerf to a two-hander by using only examples from OTHER weapon classes.
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It'd be far too OP. What 2her would use anything else?
Not rly it'd be a incremental improvement over the basically unused great bardiche and not like it couldn't be unbalanced also
It occupies the highest upkeep tier at twice the cost of great bardiche for incremental improvement
Wouldn't allow me to bring a spear and shield plus great long axe into battle and have fast attacks with both so I don't see your point but gorath generally argues in a vacuum realm seperate from actual game mechanics so I am not surprised
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Not rly it'd be a incremental improvement over the basically unused great bardiche and not like it couldn't be unbalanced also
It occupies the highest upkeep tier at twice the cost of great bardiche for incremental improvement
Wouldn't allow me to bring a spear and shield plus great long axe into battle and have fast attacks with both so I don't see your point but gorath generally argues in a vacuum realm seperate from actual game mechanics so I am not surprised
You said nothing in the inital post about giving it the unbalanced tag. That would be cool, but only if it affected the 2h mode only and left the polearm verson alone.
Great Bardiche
4500 weight
3.25
requirement 15
spd rtng 89
weapon length 116
swing damage 44, cut
thrust damage 0 pierce
Can't use on horseback
Unbalanced
Bonus against Shield
Great Long Axe
9730
weight 3.5
requirement 15
spd rtng 92
weapon length 125
swing damage 46, cut
thrust damage 16 blunt
Can't use on horseback
Bonus against Shield
When used as a polearm the effective length of the weapon is 105 (-20 range for polearm grip). Wielded as a 2her this would actually be longer than the Danish/German pikeswords (123/124 range). While being 92 speed (effectively 97 with 2her animation speeds taken into account) and having flamberge range damage (flamberge: 48c, 86 speed for comparison) WITH bonus vs shields.
You're a funny guy Kronic, but you argue from the vacuum where game mechanics aren't taken into account. Given the FACTS above I reiterate: What 2her would use anything else? A 92 speed, lolsword ranged, flamberge damage dealing 2-handed weapon of shieldbreaking? Yeah, heirloom that badboy and never look back.
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Hey Gorath and Kronic;
I totally appreciate your right to debate various game mechanics that don't have to do with this thread's topic, but could we possibly do it an another thread? I'd like to keep this thread as on-topic and short as possible, so that devs can read it without it being a chore. Thanks fellas.
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Read the thread, manofwar. This isn't about whether or not the current heirloomed barmace is OP or not. We KNOW it's OP. This thread is a discussion about how best to fix that problem, without OVERnerfing the barmace.
O sorry, I havent the slightest idea other than, maybe we could decrease the damage dealt by crush through?or increase the unbalanced factor in swinging?
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O sorry, I havent the slightest idea other than, maybe we could decrease the damage dealt by crush through?or increase the unbalanced factor in swinging?
Change heirlooming modiefiers to not add weight ? or decrease both base damage and bonus for looming so it crush only low tier stuff ?
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And you're comparing apples to oranges. One-handers and polearms both bring other things to the table than two-handers. And you're attempting to justify the overnerf to a two-hander by using only examples from OTHER weapon classes.
I'm just saying your idea that unbalanced = shieldbreaking OR crushthrough is simply put wrong.
And the weapon sure as hell has a lot of use even without crushthrough. You've got a cheap, reasonably fast, high damage tincan opener with knockdown. If that's useless, well, there's no pleasing some people.
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knockdown is pretty nasty. I'd say that more than serves to equal the unbalanced tag.
getting knocked down in almost all cases is a death sentence. Getting crushed through is surviveable and forseeable.
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Getting crushed through is surviveable and forseeable.
but not avoidable currently, which lies the problem.
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but not avoidable currently, which lies the problem.
hmm make it so to be able to use the bar mace, force the person to invest heavily strength thus reducing the amount of athletics?
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hmm make it so to be able to use the bar mace, force the person to invest heavily strength thus reducing the amount of athletics?
I faced Robin_Hood several times, which is pure STR monster, like 36/3 or something, defintly 3 agi though. I couldn't backpedal with 7 ath faster then he could go swinging at me with bar mace. Once you are in the range of bar mace user, there is no way out imo. Maybe I'm just doing something wrong though (perfectly possible).
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Change heirlooming modiefiers to not add weight ? or decrease both base damage and bonus for looming so it crush only low tier stuff ?
Wow, what a brilliant idea. Why didn't I think of that?
/sarcasm off.
Really though, imo, this seems like the best fix. Just balance the weapon, rather than completely altering it's role.
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Wow, what a brilliant idea. Why didn't I think of that?
/sarcasm off.
Really though, imo, this seems like the best fix. Just balance the weapon, rather than completely altering it's role.
Yeah bring the back role of it as the name implies make it usable only in bars... oh wait, snap!