Crush-Through on Bar Mace and Long Iron Mace

[bruce]

All of those other weapons you mentioned have a plus side in exchange for having the "unbalanced" flag. They all have bonus vs. shield.

You are imagining things. Some weapons have bonus vs shield without unbalanced tag, some have the unbalanced tag and don't have bonus vs shield or crushthrough.

[Mouse]

All the other weapons I mentioned also do less damage against heavy armor, except the flamberge which costs twice as much as the bar mace. I think that's fair. The bar mace is not an all-purpose weapon. Take crush away from both maces in question, take unbalanced away from the long iron mace, give the bar mace +1 blunt damage. I think that's fair.

[Heroin]

You are imagining things. Some weapons have bonus vs shield without unbalanced tag, some have the unbalanced tag and don't have bonus vs shield or crushthrough.

ONE. One weapon in the entire game has "unbalanced" without having any bonus. And in my opinion, and the opinion of many others, that one weapon should NOT have the unbalanced flag. There is no reason for it, and it makes the weapon sub-par.

[Killface_]

In reading between the lines of this thread, I do not understand why having had a 1:3 heirloom respec in January matters in deciding to implement another heirloom respec in the next patch. This is supposed to be a fun game for everyone to play, and people are supposed to change their minds, playstyles, desires etc. This is not about control, or parents setting rules and children abiding by them, or learning lessons from lost opportunities or mistakes, or anything else. This is an online game to provide adults as well as children with fun, an escape from reality, an opportunity to bond with each other, and enjoy our lives just a little bit more. This is the point of Mods, and my understanding of cRPG, so why so much reluctance to make everyone happy? I honestly do not get it.

Allowing everyone to respect heirlooms 1:1 provides

• Everyone who owns any heirloomed item being significantly changed with an exchange option so they do not feel they lost time
• Provides opportunity for players to try different play styles without feeling they wasted time on previously heirloomed armor or weapons

For example, someone who invested heirlooms into heavy armor and plays heavy strength, can decide instead to play light armor with high agility without feeling they wasted time if they change play styles, or worse they decide not to change playstyle to avoid feeling they wasted time. Same applies to the Bar Mace, except that a core functionality of the Bar Mace is being removed.

Help me understand why the process of polishing an excellent game and maintaining integrity of balance is in contradiction to helping everyone feel happy? Character and heirloom respecs allow for all of this to occur all at once.

Agreed, and all i have spoken to in the game also agrees. retirement allows respec.. but not fully as heirlooms remains the same.
i say let let everyone trade 1:1 heirlooms, no sense making it locked when it adds nothing and removes alot of versatiliy.

PS: also blackstone, you should make a suggestion topic just for this if you havent already

[Krakatit]

There will be a heirloom trade so you will be able to trade your heirlooms for another which suits your current playstyle better.
I dont see a point why to change current system. And ppl get info about what is going to be added into game before making
"fixing" threads or posts...

[Formless]

I would not remove the unbalanced tag from crushthrough weapons.  The Bec got nerfed because it dealt 36 blunt damage and had knocked down and was seen as being over powered.  So if you remove the unbalanced tag from the crushthrough weapons you will simply be making an overpowered weapon from a very overpowered weapon.  Leave the unbalanced tag and damage as it is, just remove crushthrough.

Then these weapons will become what the warhammer is for 1 handers a tool to do a specific job, namely killing tin cans.

[bruce]

ONE. One weapon in the entire game has "unbalanced" without having any bonus. And in my opinion, and the opinion of many others, that one weapon should NOT have the unbalanced flag. There is no reason for it, and it makes the weapon sub-par.

You're ignoring the whole statement. Some weapons have bonus vs shield without being unbalanced, like the GLA and poleaxes, and 1h axes. It's not a 1:1 mapping. Some weapons have multiple downsides (all the other crushing weapons bar maces) - for instance mauls and long maul are not only unbalanced, but also either short and slow or just terrifically slow. It's not a "unbalanced for X attribute". Hell, imagine the joy of polearm users if we could make the GLA unbalanced in order to get crush through block with it? Heh.

The barmace/iron mace are still terrific anti-armour weapons which also knockdown even with the unbalanced tag. Without it, they're... well. As fast as swords with lots of blunt damage and knockdown, at expense of somewhat shorter range? Too good to be true?

[DrKronic]

Having seen the change thats decided there's not much left to debate and like I thought basically a fullscale nerf instead of a repurpose of a good weapon that I had at plus one for eleven generations and I guess almost six months of this mod(of my twelve in this game I used it before it was FOTM)

PS make Great Long Axe a twohand/polearm like in native thx

[Vexus]

Without the crush through bar mace and iron mace leaving their unbalanced sadly it would make using 2h for blunt kinda a waste when pole have longer, have thrust, balanced and same damage blunt weapons.

But cmpxchg8b said there will be some stats changed too to make it useful so all I have to say is wait and see.

[bruce]

pole have longer, have thrust, balanced and same damage blunt weapons.

Sounds like that isn't too balanced (and yes, since the boost to long hafted spiked mace the weapon is a bit too good with knockdown + great blunt damage). Blunt is a great armour killer, shouldn't be dispensed too easily now armour is actually rare on the battlefield and should in theory mean something.

[Gorath]

PS make Great Long Axe a twohand/polearm like in native thx

It'd be far too OP.  What 2her would use anything else?

[Heroin]

I would not remove the unbalanced tag from crushthrough weapons.

Reading is ftw. No one ever asked to remove unbalanced and keep crushthrough.

You're ignoring the whole statement.

And you're comparing apples to oranges. One-handers and polearms both bring other things to the table than two-handers. And you're attempting to justify the overnerf to a two-hander by using only examples from OTHER weapon classes.

[DrKronic]

It'd be far too OP.  What 2her would use anything else?

Not rly it'd be a incremental improvement over the basically unused great bardiche and not like it couldn't be unbalanced also

It occupies the highest upkeep tier at twice the cost of great bardiche for incremental improvement

Wouldn't allow me to bring a spear and shield plus great long axe into battle and have fast attacks with both so I don't see your point but gorath generally argues in a vacuum realm seperate from actual game mechanics so I am not surprised

[Gorath]

Not rly it'd be a incremental improvement over the basically unused great bardiche and not like it couldn't be unbalanced also

It occupies the highest upkeep tier at twice the cost of great bardiche for incremental improvement

Wouldn't allow me to bring a spear and shield plus great long axe into battle and have fast attacks with both so I don't see your point but gorath generally argues in a vacuum realm seperate from actual game mechanics so I am not surprised

You said nothing in the inital post about giving it the unbalanced tag.  That would be cool, but only if it affected the 2h mode only and left the polearm verson alone.

Great Bardiche
4500 weight
3.25
requirement 15
spd rtng 89
weapon length 116
swing damage 44, cut
thrust damage 0 pierce
Can't use on horseback
Unbalanced
Bonus against Shield

Great Long Axe
9730
weight 3.5
requirement 15
spd rtng 92
weapon length 125
swing damage 46, cut
thrust damage 16 blunt
Can't use on horseback
Bonus against Shield

When used as a polearm the effective length of the weapon is 105 (-20 range for polearm grip).  Wielded as a 2her this would actually be longer than the Danish/German pikeswords (123/124 range).  While being 92 speed (effectively 97 with 2her animation speeds taken into account) and having flamberge range damage (flamberge:  48c, 86 speed for comparison) WITH bonus vs shields.

You're a funny guy Kronic, but you argue from the vacuum where game mechanics aren't taken into account.  Given the FACTS above I reiterate:  What 2her would use anything else?  A 92 speed, lolsword ranged, flamberge damage dealing 2-handed weapon of shieldbreaking?  Yeah, heirloom that badboy and never look back.

[Heroin]

Hey Gorath and Kronic;

I totally appreciate your right to debate various game mechanics that don't have to do with this thread's topic, but could we possibly do it an another thread? I'd like to keep this thread as on-topic and short as possible, so that devs can read it without it being a chore. Thanks fellas.