cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Spawny on August 16, 2011, 05:27:09 pm

Title: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Spawny on August 16, 2011, 05:27:09 pm
Following suggestion is only to be considered AFTER WSE implementation!!!

So, made that clear.

The suggestion is as follows:
2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on all 2h weapons with a thrust attack longer than X (I'd say 110 range or so).

Why only after WSE implementation?

It should only be implemented after the devs are able to fix the polearm collision issues, polearm stun and other small bugs with the various weapons around.

What would this do?

Nerf 2h stabbing rance ofc.
Imo, there should be a difference between polearms and 2h in the way they're used. Right now the differences are minor and the balance is tipped to the favor of polearms (versatility, polearm stun, horse stopping) compared to 2h (less obvious animation makes them better dueling weapons).
In my vision, the difference should be:
2h - slashing weapons or bashing weapons (or cutting from the 2h axes)
polearms - poking weapons

To compensate for the now reduced thrusting functionality in terms of reach, there should be something done about the swing damage of polearms to make it more interesting to thrust with them. Maybe even increase thrusting damage a bit, but after this change, the polearms will have their reach advantage back for thrusting, while at the same time the reach advantage in sideswings for 2h weapons remains.

A 150 lenght polearm will now actually outrange a 120 length 2h sword while thrusting.

TL;DR - 2h Weapons should be slashing weapons wih some thrusting and polearms should be thrusting weapons with some slashing.

It's an idea open for discussion, I don't have all the wisdom. Please post here to help improve the idea or point out why it should never be implemented.

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Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Jarlek on August 16, 2011, 05:46:08 pm
Totally agree to this. Polearms stab, 2handers slash. 1h are ok at both. Polearms are longest and stun, but glance (animation not damage) easily. 2h is hard to glance (animation) but doesn't stun. 1h is fastest because their the shortest (GAMEPLAY you fools!).
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Byrdi on August 16, 2011, 08:24:28 pm
I think its too early to discuss this, woudlnt it be easier to just change the damage on the weapons - so 2h is only good for slashing (like the katana) and polearms are only good for thrusting (like most spears).
I dont really thing the weapons need changes right now, exept for the many polearms glances.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Leshma on August 16, 2011, 08:40:35 pm
2h lolstab is weak, this would be of use before when lolstab had even more range, was a lot faster and did tons of damage. Now I don't think it's solution. Weaken lolstab some more if you need to, but please do not give swords that terrible polearm stab animation.

First of all, it has no sense and secondary it will make 2H swords crappier version of poleaxes which are shorter, have less damage and no stun.

Polearms are now actually better than 2H, I think they need more nerfing than 2H.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Jarlek on August 16, 2011, 09:16:46 pm
If you're new to this forums, please ignore Leshma. Now continue discussion.

Quote from: Byrdi on August 16, 2011, 08:24:28 pm
I think its too early to discuss this, woudlnt it be easier to just change the damage on the weapons - so 2h is only good for slashing (like the katana) and polearms are only good for thrusting (like most spears).
I dont really thing the weapons need changes right now, exept for the many polearms glances.

Yeah the polearm glancing is very annoying, but they got the polestun so that makes it even (YES, EVEN!), the only thing that botters me a bit is the "suddeness" of stabs in general. They take as long time to do the animation as sideswings/overheads but I think they come to sudden from "hold" spot and stay to long in the "full stab" spot. Anybody else thinks this too?
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Spawny on August 16, 2011, 09:17:22 pm
Quote from: Leshma on August 16, 2011, 08:40:35 pm
2h lolstab is weak, this would be of use before when lolstab had even more range, was a lot faster and did tons of damage. Now I don't think it's solution. Weaken lolstab some more if you need to, but please do not give swords that terrible polearm stab animation.

This suggestion is not just to nerf lolstab, it's to remove the 2hpikes. Pikes and longspears should be hard counters to cavalry, but with the current lance angle, a well times danish thrust can outrange a heave lance. Each class it's own niche.

Quote from: Leshma on August 16, 2011, 08:40:35 pm
First of all, it has no sense and secondary it will make 2H swords crappier version of poleaxes which are shorter, have less damage and no stun.

The sense in it, is the utterly unrealistic looking animation of someone holding a very long sword with completely stretched arms. All the other swings are pretty realistic, but thrusting a very big sword like that just looks silly.
To compensate, either increase the cut damage on the swords AND nerf the cut damage on polearms while increasing the thrust damage on polearms a bit.
So, polearms would have relatively high thrust damage, but piss poor damage on the swings. 2h swords would be where the nodachi was before it lost it's thrust. Great swing damage, but poor thrust damage with the polearm animation.

Also, implemented after WSE, so no polearm stun.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Xant on August 16, 2011, 09:19:32 pm
Quote from: Spawny on August 16, 2011, 09:17:22 pm
This suggestion is not just to nerf lolstab, it's to remove the 2hpikes. Pikes and longspears should be hard counters to cavalry, but with the current lance angle, a well times danish thrust can outrange a heave lance. Each class it's own niche.

No, it can't. A well timed danish thrust can ONLY outrange a heavy lance if the heavy lancer user fucks up.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Teeth on August 16, 2011, 09:28:35 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 16, 2011, 09:19:32 pm
No, it can't. A well timed danish thrust can ONLY outrange a heavy lance if the heavy lancer user fucks up.
You can almost always hit the horse with a stab, but the thing is, tough horsies these days don't die and you're still toast. I think the average 2h has good enough defence against cav, if the 2h fucks up slightly he's toast. If the cav fucks up bigtime he's toast. Thats how it should be.

Also, the statement that polearms are for thrusting and 2h are for slashing is something i find just weird. You should look to every single weapon's own slashing and thrusting capabilities based on the model. (Which isn't done properly now too. 20b stab on the long iron mace and a 16p stab on the katana which has a clear pointy end.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Panoply on August 16, 2011, 09:32:28 pm
I'm not sure if it's possible to change only select animation speeds, or if it would entirely imbalance the game, but I think a lot of the disparity between game and real life stems from the constant animation speeds. This is just a thought, and I suspect it would be difficult to translate into gameplay terms, especially in a balanced manner.

One of the major advantages of spear in real life is that you can thrust quickly with it over and over. I mean, once someone is past the pointy end of your spear, you're in trouble, but getting past the point can be difficult if you're effectively jabbing at them to fend them off. Currently, depending on weapon speeds, a spear thrusts just as frequently as a 2her, which is nonsensical considering the relative ease of thrusting with a spear compared to a large two hander.

As it stands, the swing polearms (eg. poleaxe) are much more dangerous, imo, than the thrust polearms (eg. war spear). When I'm fighting someone with a spear, I know that their goal is to thrust, which is easily countered by a downblock. All the sideswiping is all posturing and polestunning to set up for the thrust.

As a random side note, I'm not sure exactly what the lengths added by animation are for 1h and 2h, but for the same length weapons, the 1h stab should have more reach than the 2h stab, just as 1h poles have more reach than 2h poles. This is because with 1h, you can get the rotation of your body into the attack for extra reach, and you don't have to have both hands meet at a common point which lowers their reach.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Leshma on August 16, 2011, 10:51:06 pm
Quote from: Spawny on August 16, 2011, 09:17:22 pm
The sense in it, is the utterly unrealistic looking animation of someone holding a very long sword with completely stretched arms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TzdtyMC7ek&feature=related (starts at 2:14)

Also if I'm correct you already commented this video in thread about Langes Messer.

I don't see big difference between trusting they do and what we have now in c-rpg. Before when lolstab was truly lolstab (less than 1 sec animation) I would agree but not now.

Edit: Also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj4Ng6DBfrg&feature=related
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Jarlek on August 17, 2011, 12:26:19 am
Funny how Leshma had a long argument with ToD where he claimed that you should never believe a german and never listen to what a german says (because of WW2), yet he links to a video of germans fencing and shit, using it as sources for what he wants to lobby for.

Funny world.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Leshma on August 17, 2011, 01:11:27 am
Funny is how you guys named yourself Risen yet you're still at the bottom, skill wise  :D
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Jarlek on August 17, 2011, 01:41:08 am
We are? Strange. Last time I checked we top the scoreboards most of the time, haven't lost a strat war, duel server has us on the top and we are more numerous then a lot of other clans.  8-)
When was the last time anyone saw a Bandit (apart from Gnjus the wise) on top of the scoreboards?
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Leshma on August 17, 2011, 02:09:19 am
I think you're being delusional. Only Risen member who's a man worth of his salt is that guy with an axe, can't remember his name.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Siiem on August 17, 2011, 02:10:16 am
Quote from: Zapper on August 17, 2011, 01:41:08 am
We are? Strange. Last time I checked we top the scoreboards most of the time, haven't lost a strat war, duel server has us on the top and we are more numerous then a lot of other clans.  8-)
When was the last time anyone saw a Bandit (apart from Gnjus the wise) on top of the scoreboards?

Gnjus has been on top of the scoreboard  :shock:
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Corrado_Decimo on August 17, 2011, 04:10:35 am
animations are fine. greatswords stab damage is the same as a rusty spoon. the only fleble chance 2h have against cav is the thrust. polearms just have to many upsides compared to 2h.

luckily my main weapon is a great maul.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Spawny on August 17, 2011, 09:24:42 am
Quote from: Leshma on August 16, 2011, 10:51:06 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TzdtyMC7ek&feature=related (starts at 2:14)

Also if I'm correct you already commented this video in thread about Langes Messer.

I don't see big difference between trusting they do and what we have now in c-rpg. Before when lolstab was truly lolstab (less than 1 sec animation) I would agree but not now.

Edit: Also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj4Ng6DBfrg&feature=related

Quote from: Spawny on August 16, 2011, 05:27:09 pm
The suggestion is as follows:
2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on all 2h weapons with a thrust attack *editors note: read "length"* longer than X (I'd say 110 range or so).

There, quoted the important part. What swords are they using to fence with in that little video?
I'll tell you: LONGSWORDS
What length is the longsword in c-rpg? Right, 106. That means the thrust animation would stay the same for longswords/bastard swords/katana/studded warclub/goedendag/long iron mace (allthough that thing shouldn't even have a thrust attack)/some weapon I forgot with a length less than 110.

Quote from: Corrado_Decimo on August 17, 2011, 04:10:35 am
animations are fine. greatswords stab damage is the same as a rusty spoon. the only fleble chance 2h have against cav is the thrust. polearms just have to many upsides compared to 2h.

luckily my main weapon is a great maul.

Completely right, but as I've said, polearms should be adjusted accordingly so that there are distinct differences between the classes and it's more of a choice than a prefference (or a no brainer as it is now according to some people).
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Wookimonsta on August 17, 2011, 10:41:20 am
Quote from: Zapper on August 16, 2011, 05:46:08 pm
Totally agree to this. Polearms stab, 2handers slash. 1h are ok at both. Polearms are longest and stun, but glance (animation not damage) easily. 2h is hard to glance (animation) but doesn't stun. 1h is fastest because their the shortest (GAMEPLAY you fools!).

OH WOW YOU FIGURED OUT ALL THE PROBLEMS. NO ONE KNEW THE SOLUTION TO BALANCING CRPG WAS SO EASY.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Spawny on August 17, 2011, 11:33:23 am
Quote from: Wookimonsta on August 17, 2011, 10:41:20 am
OH WOW YOU FIGURED OUT ALL THE PROBLEMS. NO ONE KNEW THE SOLUTION TO BALANCING CRPG WAS SO EASY.

Thanks for the constructive critisism.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Overdriven on August 17, 2011, 01:16:34 pm
Quote from: Xant on August 16, 2011, 09:19:32 pm
No, it can't. A well timed danish thrust can ONLY outrange a heavy lance if the heavy lancer user fucks up.

Your shitting me right? :lol:

A well time danish thrust ONLY can't outrange a heavy lance if the danish user fucks up.

A lolstab out ranges a heavy lance every time on a Danish, even on my Heavy Bastard Sword. It sure as hell may not kill the horse (due to horse toughness so you get lanced anyway). But 90% of the time I will hit the horse before the lance hits me. And that thing only has 105 length. A danish would do it easily. The angle nerf on lancing really screwed up any ability for lancer to out range a 2h 1vs1. Backstabbing is the only real way to kill them now.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Okkam on August 17, 2011, 01:26:41 pm
Overdriven
What about using heavy lance with shield? If I remember correct this trick add some lenght to any pole.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Spawny on August 17, 2011, 01:32:29 pm
Quote from: Okkam on August 17, 2011, 01:26:41 pm
Overdriven
What about using heavy lance with shield? If I remember correct this trick add some lenght to any pole.

Not on horseback, as the lance is allready held in 1 hand regardless.

And yes, when stabbing against cav with a 2h sword, aim for the head of the horse and with a nice speedbonus you kill them often in 1 hit.

Bobthehero does it all the time with a long espada, the extra reach on the greatswords should make it even easier.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Overdriven on August 17, 2011, 01:36:14 pm
Not sure about the difference with a shield.

I do know that stabbing a heavy lance barely goes past the horses head however, so if you cant lolstab the horses head before the lance gets you 1vs1, then you seriously have some issues.

It's why it's been argued that lances need more length, because right now a couched heavy lance is effectively shorter than a lolstab.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Corrado_Decimo on August 17, 2011, 02:08:00 pm
Quote from: Overdriven on August 17, 2011, 01:36:14 pm
Not sure about the difference with a shield.

I do know that stabbing a heavy lance barely goes past the horses head however, so if you cant lolstab the horses head before the lance gets you 1vs1, then you seriously have some issues.

It's why it's been argued that lances need more length, because right now a couched heavy lance is effectively shorter than a lolstab.

not to mention that with the retarded 2h stab damage, any armored horse will survive a stab to the head and the silly cav coucher then will 1hit you.

seriously. with polearms covering all fighting roles, with throwing only useful on dedicated builds, 2handed is only good at blockcrushing.

at least 2handed needs effort to be effective while retarded polearms just spam right swing with some serious stunlocking fests. taht will really no need to focus too much.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Paul on August 17, 2011, 02:11:10 pm
2h clearly underpowered.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Leshma on August 17, 2011, 03:04:00 pm
Can you be serious for a second?
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Overdriven on August 17, 2011, 03:11:52 pm
Quote from: Corrado_Decimo on August 17, 2011, 02:08:00 pm
not to mention that with the retarded 2h stab damage, any armored horse will survive a stab to the head and the silly cav coucher then will 1hit you.

Well they are armoured...and 2h swords weren't particularly designed for pierce damage. Most swords will 1 hit kill any unarmoured horses with a lolstab to the head.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Corrado_Decimo on August 17, 2011, 03:37:58 pm
Quote from: Overdriven on August 17, 2011, 03:11:52 pm
Well they are armoured...and 2h swords weren't particularly designed for pierce damage. Most swords will 1 hit kill any unarmoured horses with a lolstab to the head.

so you say polearms were designed for stunlock? be serious... it's a game. so gameplay>realism. or we should look how weird is a 123cm steel german greatsword with a weaker thrust than a 1handed sword? cmon.

Espada Eslavona
weapon length: 90
weight: 1
difficulty: 10
speed rating: 101
weapon length: 90
thrust damage: 29 pierce
swing damage: 25 cut
slots: 1

German Greatsword
weapon length: 123
weight: 2.5
difficulty: 15
speed rating: 92
weapon length: 123
thrust damage: 26 pierce
swing damage: 38 cut
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback
Secondary Mode
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Wookimonsta on August 17, 2011, 03:45:15 pm
i agree, nerf 1h
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Corrado_Decimo on August 17, 2011, 03:46:34 pm
Quote from: Wookimonsta on August 17, 2011, 03:45:15 pm
i agree, nerf 1h

no we should give the butcher knife a better slash than a claymore...
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Overdriven on August 17, 2011, 03:51:04 pm
Quote from: Corrado_Decimo on August 17, 2011, 03:37:58 pm
so you say polearms were designed for stunlock? be serious... it's a game. so gameplay>realism. or we should look how weird is a 123cm steel german greatsword with a weaker thrust than a 1handed sword? cmon.

Well I think it's better for gameplay that 2h don't 1 hit kill an armoured horse to the head...wait what are we arguing about here?

The espada is a thrusting sword...2h aren't thrusting swords, they are cutting swords, actually more like blunt in terms of damage against armour, especially the top tier 2h. The espada has pretty poor cut damage but high thrust to compensate. The 2h are the other way around. If the espada was op on thrust it would have the same amount of thrust as that 2h has cut.

So yeah I think that's fair from a balance pov and realism pov.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Spawny on August 17, 2011, 04:02:04 pm
Quote from: Corrado_Decimo on August 17, 2011, 02:08:00 pm
Butthurt rage

Quote from: Corrado_Decimo on August 17, 2011, 03:37:58 pm
Whine whine whine

Useless comparison

If you don't plan on commenting on the suggestion I made and instead feel like whining about not being able to kill everything in 1 hit from your mighty great sword while being immune from every hit from others, go create your own thread.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Paul on August 17, 2011, 04:19:41 pm
Ok, seriously now. Does anyone feel that the German Greatsword is weaker than the (oh so popular) Espada Eslavona?
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Siiem on August 17, 2011, 04:20:53 pm
Quote from: Paul on August 17, 2011, 04:19:41 pm
Ok, seriously now. Does anyone feel that the German Greatsword is weaker than the (oh so popular) Espada Eslavona?

Yes, it's OP.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Overdriven on August 17, 2011, 04:22:17 pm
Quote from: Paul on August 17, 2011, 04:19:41 pm
Ok, seriously now. Does anyone feel that the German Greatsword is weaker than the (oh so popular) Espada Eslavona?

Oh so popular? I hardly see anyone using that thing. Most people don't like a thrusting sword it seems.

But if anyone reckons German Greatsword is weaker...well that's just trolling.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Leshma on August 17, 2011, 04:38:46 pm
Quote from: Paul on August 17, 2011, 04:19:41 pm
Ok, seriously now. Does anyone feel that the German Greatsword is weaker than the (oh so popular) Espada Eslavona?

Regardless of subject we're discussing here (mostly whine from crappy cavs, I bet Leed or Kerrigan don't give a damn about greatswords) you seriously need to do something about cavalry. Even a average player on horse can dominate on almost every map and that is not right. Maybe it's time to slow down horses significantly, what do you think about that? Also why for the love of god you increased bump damage?

2H vs 1H vs Polearms right now is pretty much balanced, we have much more serious balance issues. Archers are slightly overnerfed, HAs are just slightly annoying, nothing more. I wear 20 armor on average and it took Belmont 4 arrows to get me to 20% HP...

And no, I won't make a new thread cause this is one of few threads where you actually posted.

You've balanced infantry very well and I don't really see a point of this discussion but other classes are totally unbalanced. Couched lance is favorite way of killing for most cavs since most of them are noobs. It's like sniper on horse pre upkeep patch when I would ride close to enemy spawn, shoot in crowd and get a guaranteed free kill EVERY TIME. Couched lancing is the same deal these days, some noob who can't hit anything with heavy lance is killing skilled people on spawn just because they are part of the crowd and can't maneuver.

Please balance cavs and don't listen to their whining. Cavs who whine suck, those who don't suck hate the 40 percent angle for lance because it's very limiting and makes playing cav a lot more boring. Remove bumping, give lancers their freedom back and make it like it's in native. Yes you're smart but don't think you're much smarted than Warband devs. Native is really balanced compared to what we have now in c-rpg, thanks to you guys focusing only on balancing infantry classes...
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Paul on August 17, 2011, 04:51:40 pm
cRPG devs are much smarted than Warband devs.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Leshma on August 17, 2011, 04:53:23 pm
Dunno 'bout that but they sure do troll a lot more :D

Edit: Also, I'm not whining. I'm perfectly satisfied with my build, armor and basically everything atm. Personally, I don't even care about OP cav. Never had this much fun in c-rpg as I'm having right now, even if I'm using possibly the weakest armor than any 2H warrior on the battlefield.

But for the sake of the others, I must say that something is wrong and should be fixed :)
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Overdriven on August 17, 2011, 04:54:26 pm
Quote from: Leshma on August 17, 2011, 04:38:46 pm
(click to show/hide)

Have you watched Leed and Kerrigan? They don't give a crap for several reasons:
1. They rarely engage 2h from the front. Leed and Kerri are very very good at picking exactly where and when to strike to get the kill. That's why they get so many.
2. They are very very quick lancers on very quick horses. So even head on against a 2h, kerri and leed will have hit you before you would have even move your mouse for the lolstab. But then they've got everything heirloomed and are dedicated in their class.

Horses are fine. The only players that consistantly dominate are the ones you named above, or Torben, Jaboh, Chagan and a couple of others. All people who are dedicated cav and play it day in day out. So they will be good even if you slow a horse down. All other players tend to stay in the mid-range scores...where they should be.

Cavs who whine suck?  :lol: The same could be said about infantry...

Native is balanced? Native cav is awful and very OP lol. It's one of the reasons I came to crpg because it's a lot more balanced here.

If you can't jump out the way of a couched lance, then you're just plain retarded and it's your own fault. I know when I get couched, it's because I was to slow and my reactions were at fault...not because the cav is OP. Couching into a group is easy...but nothing you will do can change that short of entirely removing the couching ability and you very likely to get piked ect if you couch into a group. Couching into a mixed group is also risky because you're just as likely to couch a friendly.

Fact is, if you can take a cav out with most weapons, then you aren't very good. Because most average cav are easy to kill. The ones I named above + a few others would be good regardless of what you did to horses. Plus most of them know how to handle themselves as inf, so even if you made them do that, they would still own you.

Cav is fine. Now let's get this thread back on track.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Leshma on August 17, 2011, 05:03:33 pm
You're obviously not playing much these days. From your clan only Kerrigan dominates and Leed 90% of time is first when he is playing. Guys you mentioned are not.

I just don't like the fact that people who play cav dominate clearly more skilled infantry players. I can kill both Leed and Kerrigan but there are many I can't kill. And I'm your average player, mostly nub.

Horse is a huge ADVANTAGE. Maganda can't kill shit without horse, all he does is couching poor peasants who don't know that cav can get behind them...

All in all, your clannies dominate but there is no way that you are anything special in this mod. Horses is what give you the unfair advantage.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Overdriven on August 17, 2011, 05:10:55 pm
Quote from: Leshma on August 17, 2011, 05:03:33 pm
You're obviously not playing much these days. From your clan only Kerrigan dominates and Leed is 90% of time is first when he is playing. Guys you mentioned are not.

I just don't like the fact that people who play cav dominate clearly more skilled infantry players. I can kill both Leed and Kerrigan but there are many I can't kill. And I'm your average player, mostly nub.

Horse is a huge ADVANTAGE. Maganda can't kill shit without horse, all he does is couching poor peasants who don't know that cav can get behind them...

All in all, your clannies dominate but there is no way that you are anything special in this mod.

Well Kerrigan is one of the few dedicated lancers...so that make sense  :lol: But then Lanicor, Chagan and Jahboh would equally rip you to pieces and be in the top 5 of the server a lot of the time even on foot. Hell chagan can rip a lot of people to pieces with a heavy lance on foot. Most of those who top the servers as cav get a lot of kills on foot. Have you ever seen kerri downed in the midst of enemies? Lanicor plays with a inf build a lot as well so knows what he's doing.

Haha they don't. They can backstab more skilled inf players. But 1vs1 an average cav will lose to a skilled inf. Likewise the other way around. How it should be.

Maganda can hold his own on a horse against good infantry. But if cav didn't kill poor peasants, then they would be a target for archers, 2h ect. Peasants are there to be killed easily. It's one of the downsides of being a peasant and you just have to grind it. It just so happens that cav can get there first. But to be the best you have to have a ridiculous amount of awareness seeing as so much can kill you on a horse. Something I've never been able to get right. But you have to avoid obstacles (harder than you'd think), avoid pikes, stay away from most polearms, be careful of ranged and 2h. All whilst moving fast on a horse and fighting people.

It's not that much of an advantage.

I just wonder how long it'll take for archers to realise that if they shoot down a horse, most cav are fucked however. Ranged never seems to like shooting us even though it's easy to do so.#

This thread really needs to go back on track though.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Corrado_Decimo on August 17, 2011, 06:00:12 pm
Quote from: Spawny on August 17, 2011, 04:02:04 pm
babbling stuff...

i did. but i also noted that there are other game balance priorities than crying about how 2h stab animation is "zomfg OP".

and yes.. as you see i feed the trolls.

Quote from: Paul on August 17, 2011, 04:19:41 pm
Ok, seriously now. Does anyone feel that the German Greatsword is weaker than the (oh so popular) Espada Eslavona?

that was just an example... but i get you math geniuses fail a little about examples as you shine with numbers.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Spawny on August 17, 2011, 09:17:29 pm
Quote from: Corrado_Decimo on August 17, 2011, 06:00:12 pm
blah blah, didn't read the OP.

Never said anywhere 2h thrusts are OP. The suggestion was made to define the classes better.

Polearms stronger at poking, 2h better when swinging (generally).
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Jarlek on August 17, 2011, 10:37:24 pm
Quote from: Wookimonsta on August 17, 2011, 10:41:20 am
OH WOW YOU FIGURED OUT ALL THE PROBLEMS. NO ONE KNEW THE SOLUTION TO BALANCING CRPG WAS SO EASY.
I like how you contribute. Someone remove and warn for spam?

Also, I take away the "Ignore Lesham" comment, he's actually contributed a lot to this discussion. Kudos.

About horses: I say they SHOULD be generally easier/better/OP than the rest of the classes by the simple fact that they are much more expensive. Then again,  I think about balancing with thought of Strategus and not cRPG so take that whatever way you want.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Corrado_Decimo on August 17, 2011, 11:42:30 pm
Quote from: Spawny on August 17, 2011, 09:17:29 pm
Never said anywhere 2h thrusts are OP. The suggestion was made to define the classes better.

Polearms stronger at poking, 2h better when swinging (generally). polearms stronger at everything but blockcrush, 2h better for duel server.

fixed

edit:

2h stab is fine. period. after zillion nerfs (morningstar, barmace, stab damage, weapon speed, new thrust) it's time to say "basta".

by now, Xbows&Polearms: Warband cRPG mod is... this. 30% xbow, 30% polearms, 15% 1h 15% 2h and the rest is archers/throwers.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Paul on August 18, 2011, 03:18:13 am
So 30% crossbows manage to do <5% of the kills while 15% 2h do 30-40%. Conclusion, 2h players are very skilled and xbowers are horrible shots.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Chris_P_Bacon on August 18, 2011, 06:55:24 am
Guys, everyone knows [insert reader's class] is underpowered, and [insert reader's class's natural counter] is OP. This should be balanced.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Spawny on August 18, 2011, 07:13:03 am
Quote from: Corrado_Decimo on August 17, 2011, 11:42:30 pm
fixed

edit:

2h stab is fine. period. after zillion nerfs (morningstar, barmace, stab damage, weapon speed, new thrust) it's time to say "basta".

by now, Xbows&Polearms: Warband cRPG mod is... this. 30% xbow, 30% polearms, 15% 1h 15% 2h and the rest is archers/throwers.

Could've you please stop commenting about your thoughts on the situation now, as it has very little to do with my suggestion.
Read the OP completely and don't stop at the title.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Corrado_Decimo on August 18, 2011, 08:58:19 am
Quote from: Paul on August 18, 2011, 03:18:13 am
So 30% crossbows manage to do <5% of the kills while 15% 2h do 30-40%. Conclusion, 2h players are very skilled and xbowers are horrible shots.

besides looking the stat charts do you occasionally play this game? you should hop in a server sometime to get a clue to what i'm talking about. you'll be surprised to see how many MW arbalest + MW bolts (= 100 pierce) + mace builds are swarming around.

Quote from: Spawny on August 18, 2011, 07:13:03 am
Could've you please stop commenting about your thoughts on the situation now, as it has very little to do with my suggestion.
Read the OP completely and don't stop at the title.

oh sorry. It's like "We're in the middle of a nuclear war! but we must talk about how much bacteria suddently grows in the tomatoes!"

i'll tell you again. game is so broken that the last of concerns should be the 2h animations.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Spawny on August 18, 2011, 09:33:27 am
Quote from: Corrado_Decimo on August 18, 2011, 08:58:19 am
oh sorry. It's like "We're in the middle of a nuclear war! but we must talk about how much bacteria suddently grows in the tomatoes!"

i'll tell you again. game is so broken that the last of concerns should be the 2h animations.

Don't let the door hit you in the back.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Vibe on August 18, 2011, 09:40:45 am
+1, good suggestion. Polearms - thrust weapon, 2h - swinging weapon.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Wookimonsta on August 18, 2011, 10:16:15 am
Quote from: Vibe on August 18, 2011, 09:40:45 am
+1, good suggestion. Polearms - thrust weapon, 2h - swinging weapon.
uhm, that is EXTREMELY oversimplifying.
A sabre is designed for swinging. A Sword is designed for thrusting.
A pike is designed for thrusting. A Halberd is designed for both tbh.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Vibe on August 18, 2011, 10:24:15 am
Quote from: Wookimonsta on August 18, 2011, 10:16:15 am
uhm, that is EXTREMELY oversimplifying.
A sabre is designed for swinging. A Sword is designed for thrusting.
A pike is designed for thrusting. A Halberd is designed for both tbh.

EXTREMELY oversimplifying would be if we completely removed swings from poles and thrusts from swords. Just reducing damage or speed on polearm swings and 2h thrusts (which is halfway done anyway) would be ok. Certain poles would still have more swing damage than the others.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Spawny on August 18, 2011, 10:25:30 am
Quote from: Wookimonsta on August 18, 2011, 10:16:15 am
uhm, that is EXTREMELY oversimplifying.
A sabre is designed for swinging. A Sword is designed for thrusting.
A pike is designed for thrusting. A Halberd is designed for both tbh.

That's the problem I have with my own suggestion. The poleaxes and halberds and stuff were designed in such a way they were superior to longswords and zweihanders in every way. You can't keep them that way in cRPG or everyone would go with those.
So for balance sake, you could just lower the cut damage and increase the thrust damage on them a bit. Making them more stablike weapons instead of swingweapons. Do it visa versa for the swords. Increase swing damage a bit, thrusting damage doesn't need to be lowered any more.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Overdriven on August 18, 2011, 11:24:01 am
Quote from: Corrado_Decimo on August 17, 2011, 11:42:30 pm

by now, Xbows&Polearms: Warband cRPG mod is... this. 30% xbow, 30% polearms, 15% 1h 15% 2h and the rest is archers/throwers.

Which game are you playing that you think 30% take xbows and only 15% are 2h?  :|
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Corrado_Decimo on August 18, 2011, 12:04:06 pm
Quote from: Overdriven on August 18, 2011, 11:24:01 am
Which game are you playing that you think 30% take xbows and only 15% are 2h?  :|

because the rest of the 2handed gone polearm and a lot of archers gone xbow.

Quote from: Spawny on August 18, 2011, 09:33:27 am
Don't let the door hit you in the back.

nah i'll just play my hybrid thrower until the balance is fixed.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Wookimonsta on August 18, 2011, 03:21:39 pm
Quote from: Spawny on August 18, 2011, 10:25:30 am
That's the problem I have with my own suggestion. The poleaxes and halberds and stuff were designed in such a way they were superior to longswords and zweihanders in every way. You can't keep them that way in cRPG or everyone would go with those.
So for balance sake, you could just lower the cut damage and increase the thrust damage on them a bit. Making them more stablike weapons instead of swingweapons. Do it visa versa for the swords. Increase swing damage a bit, thrusting damage doesn't need to be lowered any more.
the following is not backed by sources because i am lazy.
the strength of poleaxes and halberds were not mainly in 1v1 combat. Their strength came from their numbers. A large amount of these gives a boon towards a large group of zweihanders or the like simply because with so many there is no room to maneuver. In 1v1 im sure a sword user has some advantages towards these kind of weapons.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Paul on August 18, 2011, 04:00:25 pm
No, in a 1on1 fight between heavily armored opponents the poleaxe was supposed to have an advantage over a swordsman. Poleaxe fighting was pretty sophisticated.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Wookimonsta on August 18, 2011, 04:02:57 pm
really? i remember learning in history class that zweihanders were used to break polearms, since most of them were made out of wood. (i know, hard strong wood, but it ain't steel)
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Spawny on August 18, 2011, 04:03:33 pm
Quote from: Wookimonsta on August 18, 2011, 03:21:39 pm
the following is not backed by sources because i am lazy.
the strength of poleaxes and halberds were not mainly in 1v1 combat. Their strength came from their numbers. A large amount of these gives a boon towards a large group of zweihanders or the like simply because with so many there is no room to maneuver. In 1v1 im sure a sword user has some advantages towards these kind of weapons.

Could be. Personally I think that making the thrust more important on the polearms creates the same fighting style in 1v1 as people do now with the warspear. The swingdamage is poor and only used to set up for the thrust attack. This is kinda obvious and creates an inherent disadvantage in 1v1 combat compared to the 3 main attacks (sideswings+overhead) from 2h's.
I reckon this will put 2h's at an advantage in 1v1 vs polearms.

*note* If you didn't read the OP, this is still a debate on possible changes after WSE implementation and some changes to polearms/hitboxes and stuff.

Quote from: Wookimonsta on August 18, 2011, 04:02:57 pm
really? i remember learning in history class that zweihanders were used to break polearms, since most of them were made out of wood. (i know, hard strong wood, but it ain't steel)

Not halberds and the like, just to chop the pointy ends of pikes.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Paul on August 18, 2011, 04:13:34 pm
What you mean is the theory that doppelsöldner (with twohanders) were used to cut off pike heads. It's not clear if that is really true if I remember correctly. I personally think that they were used to charge in, trying to swat aside the pikes and fuck the pikemen up in melee. Cutting off pike heads ain't that easy I think.

However poleaxes are not pikes. Poleaxes are a lot shorter, about men size. They were formidable 1on1 weapons in armored fighting. In fact the versatile longswords had to be turned into makeshift polearms/hammers to be useful against heavy armor - half swording. But that's what poleaxes are.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Wookimonsta on August 18, 2011, 04:21:22 pm
one of the advantages of swords against polearms that i see is that once you get inside the range of effective polearm swings the polearm user would have a much harder time using this weapon at close ranges. Thus their effectiveness in large groups as they keep enemies off each other and within optimal range.
Secondly, I have no idea how much a halberd would weigh but i would guess around the same as a large 2h, yet i imagine the weight would be concentrated towards the end yes? This would mean a hit would do a great deal of damage, yet it would also be more tiring to use than a sword.

Also, i have read about varying lengths of these weapons, but how long would you guys say it is (i'd guess about the size of the person using it).
my point is, anything that extends to behind your body becomes harder and slower to use if you plan on swinging to the sides, and once your swing is complete it seems to me that a swing from a long polearm would leave you open to an attack from the enemy. Ingame the staff of most polearms travels readily through the ground or your body, but in real life its not that easy.

I know we are getting dragged into realism discussion here, but this is actually interesting for me at work :)
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: hotcobbler on August 18, 2011, 04:44:21 pm
I disagree about polearms only stabbing. Historically, many polearms stabbed, slashed, hooked, or chopped. Look at bills, poleaxes, and halberds for example.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Spawny on August 18, 2011, 05:29:31 pm
Quote from: hotcobbler on August 18, 2011, 04:44:21 pm
I disagree about polearms only stabbing. Historically, many polearms stabbed, slashed, hooked, or chopped. Look at bills, poleaxes, and halberds for example.

I agree.

That's why I suggested on making stabbing their primary goal, so stronger thrust and weaker swings compared to 2h's stronger swings and weaker thrusts.
It's not a realism or history debate, it's just an attempt to create a different playstyle for polearms compared to 2h's.
Title: Re: 2h Animations for sideswings and overheads, polearm animations for thrusting on
Post by: Jarlek on August 18, 2011, 08:19:10 pm
Quote from: Wookimonsta on August 18, 2011, 04:21:22 pm
one of the advantages of swords against polearms that i see is that once you get inside the range of effective polearm swings the polearm user would have a much harder time using this weapon at close ranges. Thus their effectiveness in large groups as they keep enemies off each other and within optimal range.
Secondly, I have no idea how much a halberd would weigh but i would guess around the same as a large 2h, yet i imagine the weight would be concentrated towards the end yes? This would mean a hit would do a great deal of damage, yet it would also be more tiring to use than a sword.

Also, i have read about varying lengths of these weapons, but how long would you guys say it is (i'd guess about the size of the person using it).
my point is, anything that extends to behind your body becomes harder and slower to use if you plan on swinging to the sides, and once your swing is complete it seems to me that a swing from a long polearm would leave you open to an attack from the enemy. Ingame the staff of most polearms travels readily through the ground or your body, but in real life its not that easy.

I know we are getting dragged into realism discussion here, but this is actually interesting for me at work :)
Since you find it interesting, let's talk some more about it.

About the weitght, I'm not sure either but if I had to guess I would say about the same, so same as you. And the weight would also be more on the end of the halberd while the 2 hand sword would be spread out all over the weapon. But the halberds were also held much more towards the middle of the weapon to get a counterweight behind you, making it less heavy to use, while the 2hande was held mainly in the grip (halfswording was done on  the bigger ones and is roughly the same grip as the polearms). That would make them about equally tiring, I believe.

That grip also makes it easier to get a huge speed on it since you need to move the pole less than on a 2h. This would of course require more strength/effort since you're accelerating the end-piece much faster than you normaly would. This would also work against you if you missed though, so hitting air was usually a death sentence.