+30 hp for all horses, -10 speed and maneuverability

[Lech]

1h+spear can easily counter cav, it's just a matter of choosing the right weapon.. just ask Ramses.

Ragrding the pathetic 'Can't you cope with more skill requirements', how do you think people would react if Ujin said "hey, why don't make 2-handers and polearms not able to move while swinging... it would add more skill requirement since you would have to position yourself! Or cant you cope with more skill requirement?"

1h + 150 length spear ? Ok, post a video of you owning one of aforementioned players with war spear/red tassel one.

Reducing speed and maneuver is not the same as not moving at all. I would be fine with some kind of penalty for missed swings. I would cope with more skill requirement, just like i would cope with manual block for shields. Use better strawman next time kenky.

Simple fact - shield gives your spear/lance extra lenght (infantry).  Another fact- pike and long spear are cheaper than a heavy lance.

As for countering and picking fights etc i suggest you watch the livestream videos from the multi-clan tournament where shields+spears/awlpikes were used. Or just read the posts above by me or Gurnisson.

If i use a heavy lance on foot vs cav, i usually kill/dehorse a couple before getting killed. I'd say it's 50/50 vs a good lancer (coursers are easier).

Yes, shield give extra length on foot (on horseback it's always the same, shield or not), still warspear have way less effective length than heavy lance aka main offender.

So you argue that because in organised play cav is counterable (not with ease, it require more effort than dealing with infantry/archers) it's fine ?

Heavy Lance is weapon above awlpike length therefore don't counter my argument.

[Felix]

whine

Cav is at its prime only on open field maps. Town maps render them useless (that bridge map, lot of towns map etc). It's normal having cav dominating on open plains. As well as infantry excelling at capturing towns and villages and ranged - at defending towns.

[Lech]

Cav is at its prime only on open field maps. Town maps render them useless (that bridge map, lot of towns map etc). It's normal having cav dominating on open plains. As well as infantry excelling at capturing towns and villages and ranged - at defending towns.

If you think that town map render cav useless, you do it wrong. Infantry don't excel at anything as ranged can do it just as good as dedicated infantry with added bonus of killing people at range.

[Lorenzo_of_Iberia]

So you argue that because in organised play cav is counterable (not with ease, it require more effort than dealing with infantry/archers) it's fine ?

Yes, people should just wisen up and counter cav rather than whine about it. Notice how in clan battles, the cav supports the infantry not the other way round... In an organised fight cav is useless without infantry. This is because organised infantry easily counter cav, a couple of pikes and some awareness and even the best cav players wont risk it (and it is a huge risk).

Heavy Lance is weapon above awlpike length therefore don't counter my argument.

All it takes is the awlpike to take a step back and he wont get hit if the lancer hits that critical angle where he outranges, otherwise awlpike can out reach at any other angle.

[Torp]

1h + 150 length spear ? Ok, post a video of you owning one of aforementioned players with war spear/red tassel one.

Reducing speed and maneuver is not the same as not moving at all. I would be fine with some kind of penalty for missed swings. I would cope with more skill requirement, just like i would cope with manual block for shields. Use better strawman next time kenky.

I never mentioned any of those spears, did i? i simply said that a shielder w/ spear can take down even the best cav.But a spear is not needed to do that, you can take down cav with a 1h if you want to.

Furthermore, as otgher people said, cav is not nearly as good in organized fights - and all the kills cav get in unorganized fights are mostly useless kills (afk, bad players, peasant etc.) since they are the ones who strafe around on their own.
Anyways, we can't base balance of the lack of player-skill, we have to look at it objectively

[Thomek]

Ok..

So this is what happens in the long run when one class is overpowered. More and more and more players start playing that class, creating a vicious circle. Since carrying a long-ass spear, particularly against cav is not an option, or a reasonable decision since you most likely will drop it in the first encounter against infantry, cav will reign.

Who will win, a pikeman or a cavalry player? Well, the cavalry can choose NOT TO PLAY, and go for the archer or the unaware tincan or the unaware pikeman.

It has happened many times before in cRPG history that when one class become OP, more and more players start playing this class. Like with archers before, their power increases with numbers until only the most masochistic players choose not to become one, or carry a counter at all times.

Like I said months ago, cav needs a serious HP-buff, they can keep the speed for all i care, but also needs a seriously reduced maneuverability. Then they would have to THINK before they charge, and not feel like paper jets being shot down in no-time. Ain't it retarded that constant avoiding of projectiles is one of the 1st prerequisites for a successful cav-player?

Also, give us back some sheath-able spears capable of stopping cav. Doesn't need to do all the damage in the world, as long as you have a fair chance of stopping most of the lances.

Perhaps I'm jaded but I miss the times when it was possible to do flanking runs without showing to the whole world that you carried a spear.. Even then, if i.e. Bamboo Spear..  was sheathable but not hidden that would be fine with me..

At the end:
Just to list the number of tactical "indirect buffs" cav received lately:

1. Nerfed Throwing (Main short range cav detterant)
2. Long Spears take 2 slots (Fewer players have free slots to carry one)
3. Long Spears are non-sheath-able (Of the few that does, most of them have dropped them after a minute)
4. More maneuverable horses, the arab dancing horse i.e. (Making it easier to avoid problems and choose targets)

So of the cav-counters that are left there are only Archers/Xbows, and a good cav player knows how to deal with those. Archer have no defense available, xbow can never recharge in a 1vs1 situation..

On another note: It is true in theory that good tactics can defend well against cav. But not on an equal numerical basis. I think 10 cav vs 10 pikemen on a field, cav will win. Not if they charge all from the front, but If they surround them, and charge at the same time. Some cav will go down for sure, but so will some pikemen. After the horsies are down, there's still the riders to kill. BUT, perhaps we should install a special class of horses for strategus that are more powerful than the normal ones..

messy post sorry about that :-D

[Felix]

If you think that town map render cav useless, you do it wrong. Infantry don't excel at anything as ranged can do it just as good as dedicated infantry with added bonus of killing people at range.

*sighs*
Go play cav. Go play crpg and stop whining

[Lech]

*sighs*
Go play cav. Go play crpg and stop whining

I played generation as a cav.

 I think 10 cav vs 10 pikemen on a field, cav will win.

There was a good video that prove it's true (done on 22nd server).

[Felix]

On another note: It is true in theory that good tactics can defend well against cav. But not on an equal numerical basis. I think 10 cav vs 10 pikemen on a field, cav will win. Not if they charge all from the front, but If they surround them, and charge at the same time. Some cav will go down for sure, but so will some pikemen. After the horsies are down, there's still the riders to kill. BUT, perhaps we should install a special class of horses for strategus that are more powerful than the normal ones..

Charge at the same time... and? Unless pikemen are retards, they will make a circle. After those stupid cavalry will charge, ALL of them will be stopped (those who weren't stopped by pikes, will be stopped by stopped horses of their teammates). Fail charge. The closer they are to the group of pikemen, the harder it will be for them to maneuver without brushing each other.

Guys, seriously. Go and PLAY cav. And stop whining. Stop being deditards - "omg i will only play ninja/2h/inf/etc and i demand to own everytime i log on server cause i am dedicated".
Fuck that.

And if you played cav and still think that it is OP (which is strange, cause all top board hitters are the old good cavalrymen and not some new guys).... i don't know... whine moar 

I am medium tier cavalry and i find cavalry good as it is. You pay dearly for mistakes. You have to pay lot of gold for equipment. Good, aware infantry can kill me. Good aware archers can kill me. I don't know why you whine.

There was a good video that prove it's true (done on 22nd server).

Link or it didn't happen.

[Lech]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8ABQ1PPCNo&feature=related

[Felix]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8ABQ1PPCNo&feature=related

Are you sure about it? Cause we are here playing CRPG, not native. It's the most irrelevant reply i've ever seen  Most of crpg horse would be plain dead after being thrusted on that speed. There's no way crpg players would have that much heavily armored horses.
Fail.

[Torp]

TBH, if you are aware, cav aint a big problem... you can take down cav with any weapon, and i often do it with 1h.

Now you might say "But those are the bad cav! try doing it against torben or leed or tommyyy!"
I actually have done that, but you are right - it rarely happens, just like it rarely happens that i take down Phyrex or Chase with my 1H... i can neither kill good cav nor 2h or polearm with a 1h - but i can kill decent people from all classes.

Would it be fair that you have to be able to kill the best cav players everytime even though you arent close to being able to do it against the best infantry players?

[Lorenzo_of_Iberia]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8ABQ1PPCNo&feature=related

This link has been used excessively and doesn't prove anything...
Consider this :

Its native - Great lance can be used in normal fashion (not just couch)
- Pikes are not as long as pikes in crpg
- Pikes are slower in native than in crpg due to the customisable stats
- lances have been nerfed less
- Horses have been nerfed less
- There are far more heavy horses on field than would normally be present
- They are not all of an organised nature, sure they formed a triangle (which isnt a good formation to form against cav due to corners of a triangle susceptible)
 
Bring me a vid that is in crpg where 20 skilled horsemen take on 20 organised pikes all on ts and I will review your application for an argument - For now your application is denied, due to irrelevant, unsubstantial and inaccurate evidence.

[Felix]

It all turned out to be cavalry players (those who REALLY knows what does it take to play cav) vs other classses. Lol. Typical useless crpg balance discussion whine-theme.

P.S. Yeah, baby, press the "-". PRESS IT! 

[Lech]

Are you sure about it? Cause we are here playing CRPG, not native. It's the most irrelevant replay i've ever seen 

In cRPG horses are even better than in native (thanks to maneuver and better stats of horseman compared to infantry). Pikes are just as good in native and cRPG, Heavy Lances have similar powerlevel. So result would be the same, cavalry victory.

TBH, if you are aware, cav aint a big problem... you can take down cav with any weapon, and i often do it with 1h.

Now you might say "But those are the bad cav! try doing it against torben or leed or tommyyy!"
I actually have done that, but you are right - it rarely happens, just like it rarely happens that i take down Phyrex or Chase with my 1H... i can neither kill good cav nor 2h or polearm with a 1h - but i can kill decent people from all classes.

Would it be fair that you have to be able to kill the best cav players everytime even though you arent close to being able to do it against the best infantry players?

I can take down phyrex or chase or rokema with my 1h, it don't happens rarely but with decent consistency if the terms are fair. 1h do just fine against weapons that are not designed to counter shields like long axes, poleaxes, morning stars and such (when using some kind of sword, with shield breakers it's harder).

It would be fair if i would have the chance to kill the best cav players 50% of time, as i can do it against best infantry players.

This link has been used excessively and doesn't prove anything...
Consider this :

Its native - Great lance can be used in normal fashion (not just couch)
- Pikes are not as long as pikes in crpg
- Pikes are slower in native than in crpg due to the customisable stats
- lances have been nerfed less
- Horses have been nerfed less
- There are far more heavy horses on field than would normally be present
- They are not all of an organised nature, sure they formed a triangle (which isnt a good formation to form against cav due to corners of a triangle susceptible)
 
Bring me a vid that is in crpg where 20 skilled horsemen take on 20 organised pikes all on ts and I will review your application for an argument - For now your application is denied, due to irrelevant, unsubstantial and inaccurate evidence.

-Sure, but most players use heavy and regular ones.
-people use long spears as they have 2 attack directions and do fine in duels. Didn't seen single 'pike'.
-pikes have 140wpf with no armor penalties, more than cav who have about 110 wpf in polearms.
-lances were not nerfed
-horses were buffed
-depends, but in cRPG people use armored horses too
-it was organised, the initial charge was head on which isn't best way to charge yet it succeed.

When strategus will come, maybe someone will manage it. It's still good video that shows what happens when cavalry charge (some horses are stopped and killed, like some cavalry, but more pikeman die than horseman. After initial charge, horseman who lost their horse attack together with remaining cavalry, decreasing pike effectiveness thanks to block and going into formation when cav pick out occupied pikeman. Cav have to just hit once to kill pikeman, pikeman have to hit horse 3 times then hit dismounted cav twice on the ground when he is vulnerable).