Author Topic: +30 hp for all horses, -10 speed and maneuverability  (Read 8590 times)

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Offline Bulzur

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Re: +30 hp for all horses, -10 speed and maneuverability
« Reply #60 on: June 29, 2011, 03:34:37 pm »
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I really love it when cav player's arguments tend to forget that even after killing his horse, the cav can still be deadly on foot.
cav players do awesomely good on open plains.
cav players drop the horse and do average infantry on town maps.
Where do cav players play horribly ?

Btw, we're not in some 2D game, where you always face ahead your opponent, and spear got buffed damage against cav. This is 3D, cav can pwn pikeman from behind, because if there's two cav charging at a single pikeman from two different directions, the pikeman is dead, and the two horses are still alive (one is wounded/heavily wounded, but they can still do the same again, at least 1 other time).

And since it's always cav who chooses their playground, it's really easy to be efficient.

Btw Lorenzo, pikes in native are now long spears in cRPG, and IS a valable couter cav weapon.
Did you think the cavalry charge was organized ? They just plain dumb charged. Infantry was more organized regarding this matter.
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Offline Felix

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Re: +30 hp for all horses, -10 speed and maneuverability
« Reply #61 on: June 29, 2011, 03:35:53 pm »
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In cRPG horses are even better than in native (thanks to maneuver and better stats of horseman compared to infantry).

I can take down phyrex or chase or rokema with my 1h, it don't happens rarely but with decent consistency if the terms are fair. 1h do just fine against weapons that are not designed to counter shields like long axes, poleaxes, morning stars and such (when using some kind of sword, with shield breakers it's harder).

That's BS. Native horses have more HP and armor.
Rly? What's your nickname? And how do you take them down? While being in mob 10 vs 1?

Offline Lech

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Re: +30 hp for all horses, -10 speed and maneuverability
« Reply #62 on: June 29, 2011, 03:39:55 pm »
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That's BS. Native horses have more HP and armor.
Rly? What's your nickname? And how do you take them down? While being in mob 10 vs 1?

Guess my nickname sherlock, searching for thread i started is a good bet, if you can do search. I take them down 1vs1, just as i did it on duel servers back when there was no duel mode. Even with their fully loomed set of armor (mine is not).

LOL native horses have more HP and armor than elephants. LOL.

Offline Felix

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Re: +30 hp for all horses, -10 speed and maneuverability
« Reply #63 on: June 29, 2011, 03:40:35 pm »
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I really love it when cav player's arguments tend to forget that even after killing his horse, the cav can still be deadly on foot.
cav players do awesomely good on open plains.
cav players drop the horse and do average infantry on town maps.
Where do cav players play horribly ?

Btw, we're not in some 2D game, where you always face ahead your opponent, and spear got buffed damage against cav. This is 3D, cav can pwn pikeman from behind, because if there's two cav charging at a single pikeman from two different directions, the pikeman is dead, and the two horses are still alive (one is wounded/heavily wounded, but they can still do the same again, at least 1 other time).

Btw Lorenzo, pikes in native are now long spears in cRPG, and IS a valable couter cav weapon.

Cav player has to spend points for riding, so they are somwhat impaired on foot.
And if there are two pikemen? 2 vs 1 seems not very fair, let's make it 2 horseman vs 2 pikemen. The result will be quite different. And why are you taking up those stupid examples? There are far more classes participating battles then just pikemen and horsemen.
Then buff pikes and long spears. But in that case, i am afraid, other classes will begin chanting "pike is OP! Nerf it!"

Hmm i was wrong. Seems like native horses have worse stats, which is odd. I always thought native cav could take lot of blows.  :|
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 03:45:15 pm by Felix »

Offline Lech

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Re: +30 hp for all horses, -10 speed and maneuverability
« Reply #64 on: June 29, 2011, 03:44:29 pm »
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Cav player has to spend points for riding, so they are somwhat impaired on foot.
And if there are two pikemen? 2 vs 1 seems not very fair, let's make it 2 horseman vs 2 pikemen. The result will be quite different. And why are you taking up those stupid examples? There are far more classes participating battles then just pikemen and horsemen.
Then buff pikes and long spears. But in that case, i am afraid, other classes will begin chanting "pike is OP! Nerf it!"

Oh gosh, how they can fight on foot without this important 5 IF :shock:


If there are 5 pikeman vs 5 cavalry, unless all pikeman stay in blob, cavalry can set the terms of combat and attack the group with less pikeman with their full numbers.

Long Spear is already op, but even this don't help much.

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Re: +30 hp for all horses, -10 speed and maneuverability
« Reply #65 on: June 29, 2011, 03:54:57 pm »
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I can take down phyrex or chase or rokema with my 1h, it don't happens rarely but with decent consistency if the terms are fair. 1h do just fine against weapons that are not designed to counter shields like long axes, poleaxes, morning stars and such (when using some kind of sword, with shield breakers it's harder).

I would love to see you beat chase and phyrex and those guys 50% of the time... and if you are that good, you should also be able to take down the best cav with your 1h.

Anyways, cav arent as good on foot as infantry - i have now lvl'd my cav to lvl 32 (4 times the exp of lvl 30) and i am as good on foot as a lvl 30 infantry player and as good on horse as a lvl 30 cav. I have grinded twice the necessary exp for this, only to have it on 1 char instead of having it split on two.
A lvl 30 cav/inf polearmer will be as good as a lvl 27 pure. we should of course also remember to give any class we compare to full black armor, even loomed black armor since people often compare with champ horses. They would also do good, yes?

Offline Lorenzo_of_Iberia

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Re: +30 hp for all horses, -10 speed and maneuverability
« Reply #66 on: June 29, 2011, 03:55:44 pm »
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It would be fair if i would have the chance to kill the best cav players 50% of time, as i can do it against best infantry players.
-Sure, but most players use heavy and regular ones.
-people use long spears as they have 2 attack directions and do fine in duels. Didn't seen single 'pike'.
-pikes have 140wpf with no armor penalties, more than cav who have about 110 wpf in polearms.
-lances were not nerfed
-horses were buffed
-depends, but in cRPG people use armored horses too
-it was organised, the initial charge was head on which isn't best way to charge yet it succeed.

Ok first things first : there is a lot wrong here-
- lances have been nerfed in crpg, hence the heavy lance has such a slow hit speed
- due to upkeep there is no where near this amount of heavy horses on a typical battle server
- armour penalties do not outweigh crpg characters stats, the whole idea of crpg is you can specialise whereas a rhodok spearmen in native is dedsigned to do everything pretty well.
- Organised does not equal they set up in a formation (the wrong formation as well).

Ok now to Bulzur :) -

cav players drop the horse and do average infantry on town maps.
Where do cav players play horribly ?

Btw Lorenzo, pikes in native are now long spears in cRPG, and IS a valable couter cav weapon.
Did you think the cavalry charge was organized ? They just plain dumb charged. Infantry was more organized regarding this matter.

Ok regarding the first point I play a cav with a light lance and shield. Ok so for me I can really only use a light lance immediately in close quarters and while it will serve me alright I am no way with my dedicated points elsewhere able to out fight a 2h, polearm or 1h /shield infantry of the same skill. I could make it if I found a polearm but I rarely have time before I am swamped by infantry. Now players who dont take a shield can bring another polearm for when they hit the ground (providing they dont die once dehorsed during get up animation, these players don't have shields so archers should have a chance to kill them before they do too much damage. Also once a cav player is dehorsed he is often isolated or under assault from whoever dehorsed him so all the above is assuming he somehow manages to makes his walk to the battlefield unharrassed. Cav are capable infantry but are not equal to strong infantry due to points sacrificed for riding and often lower hitting builds due to high agility (for fast riding builds).

Second point - long spear = a pike from native and is undoubtedly very effective as anti cav (I don't deny it). However you non cav seem so obsessed with length and size ( :wink: ) and how cav have so much of it I thought I'd point out that the pike in crpg is even longer than the longspear, giving you even more space within you can catch a cavalry player. In large groups that extra length will make all the difference, due to extra ranks being able to cover each other.

And yes the cav were pretty foolish in a head on charge, but considering cavalry is a class that relies on disorganised / distracted opponents for its kills, the fact that the infantry as mentioned above was not overly organised (seen by bad choice of formation and also they didnt kill the riders with their pikes but rather the horses) leads me to conclude that once again a disorganised amount of players can allow cav to win in such scenario along with the differences between native and crpg making cav in native far more op.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 03:57:25 pm by Lorenzo_of_Iberia »
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Offline Lorenzo_of_Iberia

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Re: +30 hp for all horses, -10 speed and maneuverability
« Reply #67 on: June 29, 2011, 04:06:23 pm »
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I'm really very tired of having to defend cav from whiners who just can't cope with a class that relies on the inability of players to use teamwork to be effective as anything more than a support class. I don't like many classes for example archers : They bring my horse down, they are accurate enough to shoot pinpoint at distances comparable to Robin Hood standard. However I don't complain about them cause that is the balance, if I get killed by something I accept that the player used his advantages and beat me fair and square. We need to get rid of the mentality that the class is the issue not our own faults... The sooner people do this the sooner you'll see a balanced game.
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Offline Bulzur

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Re: +30 hp for all horses, -10 speed and maneuverability
« Reply #68 on: June 29, 2011, 04:24:46 pm »
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Lorenzo, i know you're a spear and shield, and no backup weapon (not like others like Kerrigan, Torben for example).

What i was saying, and doing well, is criticizing all thoses stupids comments about how cavs are useless/underpowered/nerfed in town maps. Just don't take your horse, change your polearm, and become a regular infantry. That's all. You'll even earn money that way ! Or do you really plan on using your horse JUST to say that you can't play as a cavalry build in thoses maps ?  :rolleyes:
Now, do you want to ask infantry to also change their gear and take a horse when playing on open plains ?

It's obvious that cav have the upper hand in ALL maps, overall. Your life is not tied to your horse's.
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Offline Lorenzo_of_Iberia

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Re: +30 hp for all horses, -10 speed and maneuverability
« Reply #69 on: June 29, 2011, 04:42:03 pm »
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Don't worry I dismount and play a sort of semi thrower for the lols :) and no cavs life is not tied to the horse, you are correct in saying we should dismount. I just dont believe the last statement which is cav have the upper hand on every map bar town. An archer can use his bow on any map he plays, an infantry can use his equipment just as well on any map.

I've never claimed that cav are useless on town maps, in fact I often get off horse to play pikeman / thrower because its easier for me in such a map. But cavalry is not a dominating force on any map if they come up against a team that doesn't spread out, works well together and has a standard amount of awareness. However an archer who went solo and doesnt hang around his teammates gets killed by a lancer who picks him off quickly as he is an easy target and then goes onto forums claiming horses are O/P and there was nothing he could have done. Maps would be equal for all classes if people understood there is a need for teamwork, however some people don't and then we get forum arguments like this :P
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Re: +30 hp for all horses, -10 speed and maneuverability
« Reply #70 on: June 29, 2011, 05:17:18 pm »
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There are several fallacious arguments that don't actually prove true as a practical matter in battles:

1.  Cav only kills unaware people so its the infantry's fault not their OP status.

Have you ever been to any map where there are buildings or trees?  Cav is completely SILENT until they have already hit you, then you hear hooves.  You ae constantly turning around trying to cover teammates with a pike because it is so easy to be caught by a silent horse.  You look back and see nothing, turn forward and 2 seconds later youa re couched or 1-hit killed with a  lance thrust using speed bonus from arabian warhorse or courser.  If you do happen to get lucky and catch a view of them when you turn around they just ride away and at best an archer gets only 1-shot (often none as horse can go 40 feet in time bow draw back) at a retreating horse before it gets away witha  negative speed bonus, maybe taking only 10% of the horse's health or even less of the rider.  But once they kill the pikeman (they target them if they catch them turning a corner), they proceed to repeatedly come out of nowhere as SILENT vultures killing teammates one after another no matter how aware, often waiting till they are fighting someone else before striking.  Most people are aware and trying to spot cav nowadays and its still not good enough because of 3 main factors: speed, maneuverability, and silent hooves until too late.

2.  Pikemen counter cavalry.

Typical battle yesterday, champion cataphract rider and 1 other cav left at the end for one team (typical ending) and 3 infantry including 1 pikeman on other team.  2 infantry hang near pikeman downblocking constantly and pikeman holds ready tracking cav on a hill with his pike.  30-45 seconds of cav just dancing around them then pikeman stabs at cav, doesn't quite reach as the champion cataphract turns on a dime and rides a few feet away as the stab starts, then immediately rides back in stabbing with heavy lance killing pikeman before he can recover, the courser zooms in  on  a couch kills one of the remaining infantry, but plays stupid and lets the 2nd infantry (one of the best players in the game) stab his horse (which was almost dead at end of round and then stabbing him to death before he gets back up), this was all occurring near trees on a hill (supposedly non-cav map), the cataphract doesn't zoom in for the kill but just decides to be cocky and shows duel sign and then gets off his horse.  The other infantry sees this and calls the horse over and gets on the horse and then proceeds to spend a minute dancing around the lancer who is now essentially a pikeman until round almost over then suicides with draw coming close.  Or another typical fight on NA 100, half the server is roughly half cav with 40 people on, the cav keep targeting the 10% of the server that is pikeman (far fewer because its more difficult support class than cav) and in massed pack kill them off while riding roughshod over  all the infantry who can't hit them as they trample them from every direction at high speed and then destroy the entire team with almost no deaths no matter how organized the group was.  If speed/maneuverability were realistic a successful block would allow  swing/stab back if the horse is going 3/4ths speed and they failed to bump you, but it doesn't because evena t 12 speed yo can't witht he current speed of horses.  Its like being a backpedaling long hafted blade spammer with 1-hit kills that has 30 athletics.  Like this highly nimble backpedaler they have complete control of the fight with their speed and maneuverability with no repercussions of a swing back from a non-pike unless they slow toa  stop or run into a wall like an idiot.

3.  Horses are bigger target to archers so balanced.

The fact is the high maneuverability allows horses to dance away from arrows targetted at them from mid-far range better than infantry can even dodge despite the alrger size and also make it a reduced damage by riding away.  Also, typical event once a map, full on charge by champion courser, shoot directly in the head with arrow and full speed bonus of charging courser, horse doesn't die, lance 1 shots archer.  Then proceeds to lance oonce every 2second for the next 10 seconds killing 5 more people, every one  a one-hit kill.  End of map - top 4 on each team is cav even though on this particular non na 100 server the cav is currently only 25% of the server.

Horses like thrower after January were never a nightmare until they start proliferating as people find the next OP class.  Now many of thsoe former throwers are lancers racking up kills fairly easily, with the only possible counter being enemy team goes all cav or every player goes dedicated pikeman to counter the one OP class in the game.  Thats imbalance.  Speed and maneuverability with 6-7 riding thanks to the riding boost in january is just way too high for cav right now.

P.S.  Balance is what makes  game fun, watching one class always dominate with few to no options to counter is like playing a MMORPG where 1 level 80 wizard completely obliterates 10 people at a time.  Archery was this way pre-January.  Throwing was this way after January and I posted numerous similar threads in this vein when it became utterly obvious (throwing is coming back see a lot of people getting 2:1 k/ds now, do think ammo should be increased though).  Well, cav has become utterly obvious as too unbalanced in its current state and needs adjustment of some sort maybe making them more balanced of being healthier horses with less speed and maneuverability.  Just like archers and then throwers, cav is getting super defensive about their OP horses, but the reality is pretty obvious if you go to almost anys erver at any time of the day.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 05:27:31 pm by Keshian »
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Offline Lorenzo_of_Iberia

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Re: +30 hp for all horses, -10 speed and maneuverability
« Reply #71 on: June 29, 2011, 05:38:58 pm »
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Keshian have you not noticed the amount of archers on servers :P if you want to see large amounts of proliferation after throwers we only need to look at the archers that have appeared! There are so god damn many its like an fps. By your logic that must mean archers are OP?

I admit that horse sounds need to be altered and fixed as that seems to be a valid complaint but the rest of it I don't really think I can consider, seeing as in organised battles people make good use of pikes and archers aim for horses, hitting a large amount of the time.
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Re: +30 hp for all horses, -10 speed and maneuverability
« Reply #72 on: June 29, 2011, 06:13:57 pm »
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There are several fallacious arguments that don't actually prove true as a practical matter in battles:

1.  Cav only kills unaware people so its the infantry's fault not their OP status.

Have you ever been to any map where there are buildings or trees?  Cav is completely SILENT until they have already hit you, then you hear hooves.  You ae constantly turning around trying to cover teammates with a pike because it is so easy to be caught by a silent horse.  You look back and see nothing, turn forward and 2 seconds later youa re couched or 1-hit killed with a  lance thrust using speed bonus from arabian warhorse or courser.  If you do happen to get lucky and catch a view of them when you turn around they just ride away and at best an archer gets only 1-shot (often none as horse can go 40 feet in time bow draw back) at a retreating horse before it gets away witha  negative speed bonus, maybe taking only 10% of the horse's health or even less of the rider.  But once they kill the pikeman (they target them if they catch them turning a corner), they proceed to repeatedly come out of nowhere as SILENT vultures killing teammates one after another no matter how aware, often waiting till they are fighting someone else before striking.  Most people are aware and trying to spot cav nowadays and its still not good enough because of 3 main factors: speed, maneuverability, and silent hooves until too late.

Agreed on the silent part, the rest of it is BS.

First of all; cav sucks on maps with too many buildings, they cant move around and they get caught in narrow streets all the time, which will result in your hrose getting killed and you being helpless on the ground.
Second, even the little cav that is around i pretty easily spotable if you look behind you, especially if you are several people together (if you walk around on your own, not looking behind you, you cant expect to do very well).
Third; yes, cav often kill people wh oare already fighting, and if infantry has cav help in a 1 on 1 he will most likely win - just as he will if he has support from another friend - the only difference is that cav can get tehre faster.

2.  Pikemen counter cavalry.

Typical battle yesterday, champion cataphract rider and 1 other cav left at the end for one team (typical ending) and 3 infantry including 1 pikeman on other team.  2 infantry hang near pikeman downblocking constantly and pikeman holds ready tracking cav on a hill with his pike.  30-45 seconds of cav just dancing around them then pikeman stabs at cav, doesn't quite reach as the champion cataphract turns on a dime and rides a few feet away as the stab starts, then immediately rides back in stabbing with heavy lance killing pikeman before he can recover, the courser zooms in  on  a couch kills one of the remaining infantry, but plays stupid and lets the 2nd infantry (one of the best players in the game) stab his horse (which was almost dead at end of round and then stabbing him to death before he gets back up), this was all occurring near trees on a hill (supposedly non-cav map), the cataphract doesn't zoom in for the kill but just decides to be cocky and shows duel sign and then gets off his horse.  The other infantry sees this and calls the horse over and gets on the horse and then proceeds to spend a minute dancing around the lancer who is now essentially a pikeman until round almost over then suicides with draw coming close.  Or another typical fight on NA 100, half the server is roughly half cav with 40 people on, the cav keep targeting the 10% of the server that is pikeman (far fewer because its more difficult support class than cav) and in massed pack kill them off while riding roughshod over  all the infantry who can't hit them as they trample them from every direction at high speed and then destroy the entire team with almost no deaths no matter how organized the group was.  If speed/maneuverability were realistic a successful block would allow  swing/stab back if the horse is going 3/4ths speed and they failed to bump you, but it doesn't because evena t 12 speed yo can't witht he current speed of horses.  Its like being a backpedaling long hafted blade spammer with 1-hit kills that has 30 athletics.  Like this highly nimble backpedaler they have complete control of the fight with their speed and maneuverability with no repercussions of a swing back from a non-pike unless they slow toa  stop or run into a wall like an idiot.

The pikeman failed, resulting in him getting killed. It would be the same in a 1 vs. 1 fight - if 1 guy mistimes his attack or fails to hit, he will get hit himself. Why shouldnt that be the case when fighting cav?
Also; i do think you are exaggerating about that 50% cav, cause people do that all the time, but even if it did happen; so what, i've also seen server where 50% are archers or 50% are 2H... does that mean these classes are Overpowered?

3.  Horses are bigger target to archers so balanced.

The fact is the high maneuverability allows horses to dance away from arrows targetted at them from mid-far range better than infantry can even dodge despite the alrger size and also make it a reduced damage by riding away.  Also, typical event once a map, full on charge by champion courser, shoot directly in the head with arrow and full speed bonus of charging courser, horse doesn't die, lance 1 shots archer.  Then proceeds to lance oonce every 2second for the next 10 seconds killing 5 more people, every one  a one-hit kill.  End of map - top 4 on each team is cav even though on this particular non na 100 server the cav is currently only 25% of the server.

The fact that horses are a bigger target for archers is not a valid argument; they are a bigger target because (and this is a valid argument) of the fact that they are easier to hit.
You might disagree, but that seems odd since i know you've been an archer for a long time, and all the dedicated archers i've spoken with (lots of them, im a fallen) say that the horses are so easy to hit - which is he reason all the archers aim for them... why not help your team by shooting a few horses untill the inf gets close enough?


P.S.  Balance is what makes  game fun, watching one class always dominate with few to no options to counter is like playing a MMORPG where 1 level 80 wizard completely obliterates 10 people at a time.  Archery was this way pre-January.  Throwing was this way after January and I posted numerous similar threads in this vein when it became utterly obvious (throwing is coming back see a lot of people getting 2:1 k/ds now, do think ammo should be increased though).  Well, cav has become utterly obvious as too unbalanced in its current state and needs adjustment of some sort maybe making them more balanced of being healthier horses with less speed and maneuverability.

Would it be more fun if the fastest horses were riding around with current plated charger speed? what would be he idea of cav riding the same speed as agi-builds? first of all it would be no fun at all, the reason i play cav is that i want to be in the heat of battle instead of just camping, how am i supposed to do that with so little speed while also being a main target of the enemy? and many cav feel that way. It wouldn't be compareable to reality either... ow often do you see a horse hitting top speed and still being slower than a fast runner?
Also, who would ever use an armored horse? 26 speed is a JOKE as cav.

Maybe people would take your seuggestions more serious if they weren't this game-breaking. This would totally ruin cav - if you dont like it, come with a suggestion to slightly nerf it in order to make it balanced instead of taking it out of the game.

Offline Thomek

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Re: +30 hp for all horses, -10 speed and maneuverability
« Reply #73 on: June 29, 2011, 07:22:01 pm »
0
I don't know by how much, or how cav should be nerfed, only that they should be less efficient.

Most of all I would see a damage risk (from zero to break the neck) to the rider when he falls off, but that is wse stuff, and not implementable in the near future.

There are many ways to do this:

1. Give us back some sheath-able longer spears. (I.ex Bamboo for weaboos + a Euro-ish one)
2. Buff throwing somehow..
3. Nerf cav maneuverability, but buff the HP enough so they can survive the same amount of attempted shots. (If it took 10 shots to down a cav now 5 hits 5 misses, it should take 10 shots after nerf if there was 7 hits / 3 misses. The extra hits come from less maneuverability.)

Torp.. Awareness.. There are situations especially in towns, where cav rounds a corner, and I don't care if you have 12y old reactions: You got no chance. Certain situations in cRPG is already blasting anyones awareness-sensors hehe. You have cav-ranged-infantry-blocking.. etc etc.   (Why I try to avoid the clusterfucks and create 1vs1 situations for myself..) :-D

Cav was always the best Ninja out there. Superfast->1hit kills->Quick Getaway
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