+30 hp for all horses, -10 speed and maneuverability

[Keshian]

Probably have noticed that the number of people playing cav has roughly doubled since the last patch, much like within a month of the January patch the number of throwers doubled.  There are a number of clans who have converted half their clan members lately to cav.  Why??  because with the final nerfs of equipments slots to both pocket pikemen and ranged and the thrower nerf, cav have far fewer predators and their dramatically excessive speed and maneuverability sicne January has become noticeable in its effect.  Will often see maps with top 5 on each team being cavalry, many of whom are only average quality cavalry players, but it has become fairly easy to rack up a lot of kills not really on unaware footmen (though no one hears the sound of hoofbeats since january patch to give warning) but footmen engaged in fighting and ranged who might be lucky to get 1 shot off before being 1 shot killed as the cavalry person travels half the map in a few seconds.  If the miss the lance/couch/slash they just turn a 180 degree angle and bump slash/lance you to death.

I know a lot of cavalry people get defensive just as throwers got defensive before the last patch, but going cavalry is far too easy compared to all other classes currently.  It needs a rebalancing of skill that a slower speed would accomplish, this would allow them to strike, but thena  quick enemy can retaliate back instead of holding a constant downblock until bump slashed or couched.  Their speed and maneuverability should have some realtion to the severly limited maneuverability and speed of footmen instead of being way out of line.  Turning corners at high speed with a couched lance is not skill but simply flawed game mechanics.

+30 hp would make horses a little more resilient (though champion coursers already can take 5 arrows before dying), and the reduced speed and maneuevrability of 10 only cuts it by 20-25%, which is actually still allowing horses to have great speed, but not simply get kills by cheap jet fueled tactics, but by actual skill of proper lancing and timing and choosing when to charge.

[Cyclopsided]

A flat linear nerf is ofc not the way it would work [+30 -10 -10 for example]. Balancing works in curves and %s of stats better.

But I know exactly what you are suggesting.
and i'll just say again that speed needs no nerf if maneuver is greatly reduced. lowering speed means nothing and is stupid. The only problem is maneuver.
Buff hp, armor, charge dmg. Greatly reduce maneuver. Speed would need very minor tweaking on horses for balance at most.

[Overdriven]

Again...bring back throwing and I doubt a horse nerf will be needed.

The only horse that can turn on a dime like that is the Arabian. This should not be an 'all horses need nerfing' case. But it has to be taken horse by horse.

[Seawied]

-10 speed an maneuverability would be just as overkill as the throwing nerf was. Speed should be topped at around 45 for the fastest horse and maneuverability should be 46-47 max. This is for the FASTEST horse.

Additionally, heirlooming a horse should add noticeably more life and armor, not speed and maneuverability. This would stop the super-horses and a lot of the ninja-horsing which is commonplace.

[Gurnisson]

I like the thought of making horses tougher, but less maneuverable, though -10 speed and -10 maneuverability seems to be a tad too harsh. Also, I think acceleration speed is defined by the maneuver, so reducing maneuver will also make them snails when it comes to accelerating.

[Overdriven]

I like the thought of making horses tougher, but less maneuverable, though -10 speed and -10 maneuverability seems to be a tad too harsh. Also, I think acceleration speed is defined by the maneuver, so reducing maneuver will also make them snails when it comes to accelerating.

This is true. An Arabian on a small stretch is faster than a courser. It takes the courser longer to reach it's top speed. If you hit a steep stretch, or for some reason have to go from stop to start, the Arabian will have the advantage.

[Bonze]

Probably have noticed that the number of people playing cav has roughly doubled since the last patch, much like within a month of the January patch the number of throwers doubled.  There are a number of clans who have converted half their clan members lately to cav.  Why??  because with the final nerfs of equipments slots to both pocket pikemen and ranged and the thrower nerf, cav have far fewer predators and their dramatically excessive speed and maneuverability sicne January has become noticeable in its effect.  Will often see maps with top 5 on each team being cavalry, many of whom are only average quality cavalry players, but it has become fairly easy to rack up a lot of kills not really on unaware footmen (though no one hears the sound of hoofbeats since january patch to give warning) but footmen engaged in fighting and ranged who might be lucky to get 1 shot off before being 1 shot killed as the cavalry person travels half the map in a few seconds.  If the miss the lance/couch/slash they just turn a 180 degree angle and bump slash/lance you to death.

I know a lot of cavalry people get defensive just as throwers got defensive before the last patch, but going cavalry is far too easy compared to all other classes currently.  It needs a rebalancing of skill that a slower speed would accomplish, this would allow them to strike, but thena  quick enemy can retaliate back instead of holding a constant downblock until bump slashed or couched.  Their speed and maneuverability should have some realtion to the severly limited maneuverability and speed of footmen instead of being way out of line.  Turning corners at high speed with a couched lance is not skill but simply flawed game mechanics.

+30 hp would make horses a little more resilient (though champion coursers already can take 5 arrows before dying), and the reduced speed and maneuevrability of 10 only cuts it by 20-25%, which is actually still allowing horses to have great speed, but not simply get kills by cheap jet fueled tactics, but by actual skill of proper lancing and timing and choosing when to charge.

If the foot soldiers running with 30 km/h , jumping 2 meters high,  circle around with warp 8 and  swing  their weapon 2 times per second ,  then nerf all horse  by a factor of - 10 ....... thats stupidest thing ive ever heard.


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[Memento_Mori]

imo nerf riding skill, 7-8 riding is a fighter jet without wings.

btw, robot horses are lame it's not much of a challenge lancing someone with a huge lance when you can be anywhere on the map in less than a few seconds on your handy dandy fighter jet.
just my dumb opinion.

[Cyclopsided]

If the foot soldiers running with 30 km/h , jumping 2 meters high,  circle around with warp 8 and  swing  their weapon 2 times per second ,  then nerf all horse  by a factor of - 10 ....... thats stupidest thing ive ever heard.

I think we've gone over the relative speed of infantry vs cavalry before. Infantry is much slower in game than in real life, and cavalry is faster in game than in real life and there is a huge disparity between reality and in game. That argument has no grounds.

Also, I've never noticed anything odd about how high people jump. It looks normal to me, they are tucking their legs up. Maybe it is because I do parkour.
But seriously, people move really slow in game compared to real life. I don't know about you, though.
Also, in game nobody swings 2 times a second, BUT if it were real life people could swing up to 4 times a second with staves and most 2handers. Worst argument this thread has yet, especially when you can swing said weapons while on the horse too.

Also, it is a reworking of horses not a nerf. Most people would see [my suggestion] as a buff to real cav players, and a nerf to people exploiting retarded game engine crap.

I'm tired of people not reading and flaming Just patch stuff.

[Bulzur]

I like the thought of making horses tougher, but less maneuverable, though -10 speed and -10 maneuverability seems to be a tad too harsh. Also, I think acceleration speed is defined by the maneuver, so reducing maneuver will also make them snails when it comes to accelerating.

Agreed.
Nerfing only maneuverability, and buffing flat hp would help a lot.

[Keshian]

I think we've gone over the relative speed of infantry vs cavalry before. Infantry is much slower in game than in real life, and cavalry is faster in game than in real life and there is a huge disparity between reality and in game. That argument has no grounds.

Also, I've never noticed anything odd about how high people jump. It looks normal to me, they are tucking their legs up. Maybe it is because I do parkour.
But seriously, people move really slow in game compared to real life. I don't know about you, though.
Also, in game nobody swings 2 times a second, BUT if it were real life people could swing up to 4 times a second with staves and most 2handers. Worst argument this thread has yet, especially when you can swing said weapons while on the horse too.

Also, it is a reworking of horses not a nerf. Most people would see [my suggestion] as a buff to real cav players, and a nerf to people exploiting retarded game engine crap.

I'm tired of people not reading and flaming Just patch stuff.

You are right, percentage change is probably the way to go with a 15-20% decrease in maneuverability and 10% decrease in speed and making horse hooves actually make noise when they approach.  I think adding more hitpoints not armor though is the way to go, otherwise they just become armored horses immune to arrows and all cutting weapons.  Think of duelling someone backpedaling with a really long polearm, you can never reach to swing at them all you can do is block and charge, horses are kind of like that in the sense that high speed and maneuverability doesn't allow for retaliation with a successful block making them not need to use their shield or manual block with their lance.

The biggest thing is that high speed AND maneuverability allows for being everywhere at once on the battlefield so that a group of them completely control the battlefield everytime because even if you block one another one is coming and then the first one blocking is already turned and sped up to charge you again a moment after the second one and if they miss they just lance a guy 1 second later just past you and then the next guy with little to no chance of rtaliation using the longest weapons in the game.

P.S.  I know cavalry gets really defensive about their OP horses right now so my awesomebar is going down (like that matters at all), but there is a serious imbalance with horses currently (like throwing after January) and it needs tweaking and revising before strategus comes out or all other classes become far less viable.  We should want to see diversity on the battlefield and not having battle servers often being 50% cavalry as it is now.

[Thucydides]

people who stopped using a pike (longspear?) because they can't have 3 other large ass weapons shouldn't be a pikeman in the first place.

[Overdriven]

You are right, percentage change is probably the way to go with a 15-20% decrease in maneuverability and 10% decrease in speed and making horse hooves actually make noise when they approach.  I think adding more hitpoints not armor though is the way to go, otherwise they just become armored horses immune to arrows and all cutting weapons.  Think of duelling someone backpedaling with a really long polearm, you can never reach to swing at them all you can do is block and charge, horses are kind of like that in the sense that high speed and maneuverability doesn't allow for retaliation with a successful block making them not need to use their shield or manual block with their lance.

The biggest thing is that high speed AND maneuverability allows for being everywhere at once on the battlefield so that a group of them completely control the battlefield everytime because even if you block one another one is coming and then the first one blocking is already turned and sped up to charge you again a moment after the second one and if they miss they just lance a guy 1 second later just past you and then the next guy with little to no chance of rtaliation using the longest weapons in the game.

P.S.  I know cavalry gets really defensive about their OP horses right now so my awesomebar is going down (like that matters at all), but there is a serious imbalance with horses currently (like throwing after January) and it needs tweaking and revising before strategus comes out or all other classes become far less viable.  We should want to see diversity on the battlefield and not having battle servers often being 50% cavalry as it is now.

We shall see how cavalry does in the battles today. Then I'll reply.

[Lichen]

-10 speed an maneuverability would be just as overkill as the throwing nerf was. Speed should be topped at around 45 for the fastest horse and maneuverability should be 46-47 max. This is for the FASTEST horse.

I agree. I've seen some coursers which were heirloomed I suppose and they were just....ridiculous is the word I guess. Even the non heirloomed is on the verge of being 'too fast' already. So yeah 45 maybe 46 for the fastest would be a good way to get rid of jet ponies yet still plenty fast (and more realistic).

Additionally, heirlooming a horse should add noticeably more life and armor, not speed and maneuverability. This would stop the super-horses and a lot of the ninja-horsing which is commonplace.

Agree again. Be even nicer if heirloomed horses used new textures to differentiate as well upgraded armor...maybe heraldic as well etc)

[PhantomZero]

Reducing the speed of the armored horses anymore than they already are, and they wouldn't be able to couch. You want to reduce maneuverability? Why? Don't claim realism because that is stupid, real horses are much more maneuverable and faster than their ingame counter-parts.

Reducing the maneuverability would force the horses to always attack from the rear, whereas now its only most of the time, anyone with enough athletics can dodge out of the way or take the easy route underneath the horse to escape.

If anything needs to be fixed, its the fact that the easiest way to dodge a horse is to throw yourself under it's hooves, for no damage if you are wearing anything more expensive than a mail shirt for minimal damage.

Of course people taking 30 agility for 10 riding and using champion coursers are going to zoom around the map, but they are utterly useless off a horse. It is no different than a 2h taking 30 strength, black armor, a great maul, max ps and if, then going to town as everything glances off, infact horses are the only way to counter those armored juggernauts.

The best fix for this is a class balancer, which could give even amounts of cavalry/ranged/melee to each team, to prevent all the cav and ranged being on one team, and all melee on the other.