Author Topic: +30 hp for all horses, -10 speed and maneuverability  (Read 8606 times)

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Offline Bonze

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Re: +30 hp for all horses, -10 speed and maneuverability
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2011, 07:35:10 pm »
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I think we've gone over the relative speed of infantry vs cavalry before. Infantry is much slower in game than in real life, and cavalry is faster in game than in real life and there is a huge disparity between reality and in game. That argument has no grounds.

Also, I've never noticed anything odd about how high people jump. It looks normal to me, they are tucking their legs up. Maybe it is because I do parkour.
But seriously, people move really slow in game compared to real life. I don't know about you, though.


What a nonsense...
 No one can strafing left right in rl with  crpg speed,  no one jump 2 meter high with a plate armor and no one  can  start overhead attacks 2 times per second  with a   2-3 meter pike in rl ... that is basic physics , back to school plz 
The game feels slow? Make a AGI build,  join a battle and press R ...


Also, in game nobody swings 2 times a second, BUT if it were real life people could swing up to 4 times a second with staves and most 2handers. Worst argument this thread has yet, especially when you can swing said weapons while on the horse too.


Lmao .......typical display theoretician
I have 2 years rl experience with swordplay.   Where did you get your knowledge,  hollywood movies,  manga comics or bruce lee movies?

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Offline Overdriven

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Re: +30 hp for all horses, -10 speed and maneuverability
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2011, 07:35:25 pm »
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I agree. I've seen some coursers which were heirloomed I suppose and they were just....ridiculous is the word I guess. Even the non heirloomed is on the verge of being 'too fast' already. So yeah 45 maybe 46 for the fastest would be a good way to get rid of jet ponies yet still plenty fast (and more realistic).
Agree again. Be even nicer if heirloomed horses used new textures to differentiate as well upgraded armor...maybe heraldic as well etc)

I already said though, it takes coursers time to get to full speed. It's only properly useful on open maps. Otherwise the Arabian is better because it goes from start to stop and back again much faster.

Offline Lichen

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Re: +30 hp for all horses, -10 speed and maneuverability
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2011, 07:48:39 pm »
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The 'silent hoofs' and 'jet ponies' are really the only 2 things that I'd like to see changed. Maneuverability isn't an issue or unreasonable to me.  I've never really thought (or noticed) it being ridiculous. But yeah some of these horses are like cars with how fast they are. It's not a 'big' deal to me personally but I think there is room for improvement.

Offline Huey Newton

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Re: +30 hp for all horses, -10 speed and maneuverability
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2011, 09:28:31 pm »
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Again...bring back throwing and I doubt a horse nerf will be needed.

The only horse that can turn on a dime like that is the Arabian. This should not be an 'all horses need nerfing' case. But it has to be taken horse by horse.

This

Offline Bulzur

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Re: +30 hp for all horses, -10 speed and maneuverability
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2011, 11:37:24 pm »
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We shall see how cavalry does in the battles today. Then I'll reply.

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Offline Toffi

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Re: +30 hp for all horses, -10 speed and maneuverability
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2011, 06:32:43 pm »
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-1

Offline Overdriven

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Re: +30 hp for all horses, -10 speed and maneuverability
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2011, 12:56:10 am »
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Admittedly cavalry was strong in the battle. However I'd like to outline my observations from the experience:

- From what I saw the cavalry supported infantry closely, and was used for the most part, as cavalry vs cavalry.
- Cavalry only did well against infantry when the infantry was actually engaged and had broken up.
- Organised infantry had the support of the archers, and our cav didn't want to go anywhere near those archers until they'd lost the support of the infantry (which happened a couple of times and the archers got mown down).
- Significant amounts of pikes at some points managed to take down quite a lot of the cav, despite the open nature of the battle. Possibly because it's difficult to see the pikes in that melee mess.
- It was largely tactical, difficult to say what happened in the other battle because I didn't watch that much of it. But ours, the cavalry focused on their cav and only after did we engage the inf.

So all in all, it's fairly clear that inf/archers working together can easily be an effective cav counter and that cavalry in battles like that is largely a supporting role (if only to deter enemy cav from attacking inf, at least that's how team 1 used it). But it brings in the age old ninja cav argument again. As soon as those infantry broke up to fight each other, the cav charged in for happy hour.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2011, 12:58:11 am by Overdriven »

Offline Bulzur

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Re: +30 hp for all horses, -10 speed and maneuverability
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2011, 01:02:55 am »
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True Overdriven. Cav just have to waits for other to do errors, then engage, get kills and don't get killed. And if they don't do errors, then they don't engage, don't get kills and don't get killed.

It's too bad we don't have an effective counter against cav.


Oh, and in your example, you forgot the horse archers.  :rolleyes: Make a lancer charge, you notice the pikeman going to stab him, just shoot him since he doesn't move much waiting for the lancer, he gets stunned, and the lancer couchs him => win. Kill remaining archers with easy passes.

Or do you also suggest that we actually also need shielders protecting pikemens who protects archers ?  :shock:

Cav is definitely overpowered. Even pikeman isn't a good enough counter, since you can't watch everywhere in the same time, and cav's speed is so huge they often stab you before you even realize they were there. And when you do realize, they'll just pick another target. Easy as pie.
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Offline Overdriven

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Re: +30 hp for all horses, -10 speed and maneuverability
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2011, 01:15:51 am »
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True Overdriven. Cav just have to waits for other to do errors, then engage, get kills and don't get killed. And if they don't do errors, then they don't engage, don't get kills and don't get killed.

It's too bad we don't have an effective counter against cav.


Oh, and in your example, you forgot the horse archers.  :rolleyes: Make a lancer charge, you notice the pikeman going to stab him, just shoot him since he doesn't move much waiting for the lancer, he gets stunned, and the lancer couchs him => win. Kill remaining archers with easy passes.

Or do you also suggest that we actually also need shielders protecting pikemens who protects archers ?  :shock:

Cav is definitely overpowered. Even pikeman isn't a good enough counter, since you can't watch everywhere in the same time, and cav's speed is so huge they often stab you before you even realize they were there. And when you do realize, they'll just pick another target. Easy as pie.

I think  the most effective counter was definitely the archers. As soon as the infantry broke off, the archers lost their protection, died quickly and then the infantry became game. Problem is it's difficult to compare an organised battle to general melee. I can agree that melee could use some more counters other than an unsheathable pike. Which is why I've argued for a sheathable pike related weapon in the past (that doesn't take to many slots).

Mind you I did enjoy being HA on that second map. The round where their infantry camped the hill on our right, our infantry faced them, cavalry went round the back, our archers stayed at the base shooting them. Then the cav just sat there watching whilst the archers and HA pumped arrows into the shield wall (which was facing the wrong way). It was a turkey shoot  :lol: Cav and inf then charged and it was an easy slaughter.

Still, it'll be interesting to see how throwing effects cav in future. It's hard to say what will happen once that comes back.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2011, 01:17:03 am by Overdriven »

Offline Torp

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Re: +30 hp for all horses, -10 speed and maneuverability
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2011, 01:33:03 pm »
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lol, you wanna make sarranid slower than Plated charger is now?
And courser less manouvreable? ye, it woquld be fun with a few snail travelling slower than agi bilds run... would allow the archers to warm up a little before the actual fight...

Also who would ever ride armored horses? yeah, real fun riding around with 26 speed and manouver...

Btw; have you ever played cav yourself?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2011, 01:42:29 pm by Torp »

Offline Thomek

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Re: +30 hp for all horses, -10 speed and maneuverability
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2011, 05:00:04 pm »
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Any tard can see that cav is op at the moment.

If your horse dies.. So? you can still fight very well on foot since the points going into riding are not a lot, or don't have very steep requirements.

I suggested a long time ago that one should nerf the maneuverability of horses and rather buff the HP. Then players would have to actually *Think* while playing cav, and not just zoom around the map looking for a back to backstab. I'm a strong proponent that players should think tactically where to put themselves in the battle, and knowing their strengths and weaknesses. Cavalry is even more a thinking mans class, as you have both the overview of the battle and the ability to be wherever you want much quicker than other classes. Cavalry also have the ability to use teamwork by charging in groups.

A horse gives great great power, but should punish you very hard when you do a mistake. No other classes can fly around, choose their battles, and 1-shot any player caught unaware. I would rather see them getting a HP buff so they would not be shot to pieces by archers while doing a charge, but if they run into a pikeman, they should have problems..

Some cavalry players think they *Should* have a great advantage over other players just because they are on a horse. It should be a null-sum game of balance, the advantage should be nullified by the risk and vulnerabilities.
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Offline Torp

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Re: +30 hp for all horses, -10 speed and maneuverability
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2011, 05:26:58 pm »
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Any tard can see that cav is op at the moment.

If your horse dies.. So? you can still fight very well on foot since the points going into riding are not a lot, or don't have very steep requirements.

I suggested a long time ago that one should nerf the maneuverability of horses and rather buff the HP. Then players would have to actually *Think* while playing cav, and not just zoom around the map looking for a back to backstab. I'm a strong proponent that players should think tactically where to put themselves in the battle, and knowing their strengths and weaknesses. Cavalry is even more a thinking mans class, as you have both the overview of the battle and the ability to be wherever you want much quicker than other classes. Cavalry also have the ability to use teamwork by charging in groups.

A horse gives great great power, but should punish you very hard when you do a mistake. No other classes can fly around, choose their battles, and 1-shot any player caught unaware. I would rather see them getting a HP buff so they would not be shot to pieces by archers while doing a charge, but if they run into a pikeman, they should have problems..

Some cavalry players think they *Should* have a great advantage over other players just because they are on a horse. It should be a null-sum game of balance, the advantage should be nullified by the risk and vulnerabilities.

Partly agree but not entirely.

Some of this pretty much equals saying "Good armor should be nerfed and have big down-sides cause otherwise it will be better than the peasant armor" - the price is part of the balance. A cav player pays 20k+ more than a regular player, and should therefore also be better, but not much betetr - i agree on that.

Another thing is, that after the slot system - cav aren't as good when dismounted anymore. You either have to split your wpf to get a 1h and be able to use shield on horse and when dismounted (not the best shields though - they are 2-slot), or you need to take he risk of not having a shield on your horse and probably get shot to pieces.

When you are on your horse, you will also risk having your horse killed, which happens a lot easier than getting killed yourself, since you cant block for your horse. This results in you ending up on the ground, helpless against the 10 kill-hungry enemies around you.

On top of that;
Yes, cav get laods of kills -in unorganized battles.
If you nerf caav too much, it mgiht result in what some people would call better balance now - but what would happen in strategus when tehre are no unaware targets? then cav would be useless. Cav has to be able to manouver and have enoguh speed to escape potential danger... otherwise they would be literally useless in strategus.

I can't find a good way to balacne it right now - has to think more about that... but buffing hp+nerfing speed+manouver is not a very good solution imo.
Would result in more bumping tanks, which would lead to mroe rage and it woud also result in cav being worthless in strategus.

Offline Paul

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Re: +30 hp for all horses, -10 speed and maneuverability
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2011, 05:46:04 pm »
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Any tard can see that cav is op at the moment.

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Offline Laufknoten

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Re: +30 hp for all horses, -10 speed and maneuverability
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2011, 06:10:55 pm »
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Besides 2h, cav is the op-class no. 1. Make a normal pole build, put your 5/6 points in riding, buy a rouncey and some sort of lance and there you go. You can easily get douzen of kills and make money at the same time. Just wait for the chaos to start and backstab those unaware footmen, it's easy as hell.     
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