Author Topic: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters  (Read 12435 times)

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Offline Molly

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #75 on: October 24, 2014, 01:41:01 pm »
0

If your Wooden stick will eat 2 slots, cost 4k gold, weigh 10 kg, but still doing less damage to opponent than practice dagger - will you call it balance?
I would head-desk if I were stupid enough to use that crap but that's not the issue here. That would mean you're complaining about not having enough high-tier bows/models to play with.
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Offline FRANK_THE_TANK

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #76 on: October 24, 2014, 01:50:34 pm »
+2
I would head-desk if I were stupid enough to use that crap but that's not the issue here. That would mean you're complaining about not having enough high-tier bows/models to play with.

Read my post. Look at the equivalent price weapons in the other brackets and then go from there. They all have no scaling limitations are useful. Currently the bows bellow horn bow are just practice dagger levels of pointless, hell even practice daggers can do damage with enough PS and wpf.

----

Tartar bow with tartar arrows at max PD = 55.44 that cost 7k and hits 11 times if you don't miss a beat. In practice that 55.44 points of cut comes turns to puss.

For the same money my 2h dishes out 79.04 forever with it's axe.

Am I asking for a bow to hand out what the Persian battle axe does? FUCK NO. But lets put some perspective onto this and change tac on it.

I don't think these comparisons are helping deal with the issue.

« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 01:55:56 pm by FRANK_THE_TANK »
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Offline Cup1d

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #77 on: October 24, 2014, 01:54:06 pm »
+1
I would head-desk if I were stupid enough to use that crap but that's not the issue here. That would mean you're complaining about not having enough high-tier bows/models to play with.

It's not about stupid you enough or not. It's about half of ranged equipment, that is useless now. Head-desk a little if you want, but tell me first - what a role you propose to any 1 slot bow except yumi, and arrows\barbed arrows?

Offline Molly

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #78 on: October 24, 2014, 07:24:58 pm »
0
I am pretty sure head shots do damage, so do body shots on low armor targets, I guess. Don't really know and I don't really care cuz I am biased. But if you can, it's hardly useless. I wouldn't even think once that my trusty cudgel is useless.
But nobody seems to pick up my analogy with the wooden stick/cudgel.

If you wanna do lots of damage, you pick up a badass long and expensive sword and not the "cheap" stuff (in comparison to the long badass expensive sword).
Why exactly should it be different for bows?
If you wanna do lots of damage, take the expensive stuff.

And since it's kinda established that too many archers kill off a server population, generally a way higher upkeep to keep the archer ratio in check seems a proper way to do that.

Oh, and I am still waiting on an explanation why exactly "only" NA is complaining in here and EU doesn't (for the most part).

[...]You can get kills with the spiked club, Arys does all the time. That thing with a bunch of PS behind it will rip shit up. I was using the light spied club on the Aust server with 1wpf and 7PS and it was tearing heads off left and right. The two handed axe is the same, totally usable and deadly weapon. The scythe, that thing is just fucked up in the right hands Big Bird used to be able to dominate the server with that fucking thing.
[...]
Pretty sure there are still archers with the smaller bows, putting arrows in heads left and right, killing people with it. But only the right targets. I can tell you from experience that you won't "rip shit up" with an Elder's Spiked Club fighting a strength whoring tin can. Takes ages...
« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 07:28:07 pm by Molly »
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Offline Algarn

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #79 on: October 24, 2014, 09:42:17 pm »
+2
I am pretty sure head shots do damage, so do body shots on low armor targets, I guess. Don't really know and I don't really care cuz I am biased. But if you can, it's hardly useless. I wouldn't even think once that my trusty cudgel is useless.
But nobody seems to pick up my analogy with the wooden stick/cudgel.

If you wanna do lots of damage, you pick up a badass long and expensive sword and not the "cheap" stuff (in comparison to the long badass expensive sword).
Why exactly should it be different for bows?
If you wanna do lots of damage, take the expensive stuff.

And since it's kinda established that too many archers kill off a server population, generally a way higher upkeep to keep the archer ratio in check seems a proper way to do that.

Oh, and I am still waiting on an explanation why exactly "only" NA is complaining in here and EU doesn't (for the most part).
Pretty sure there are still archers with the smaller bows, putting arrows in heads left and right, killing people with it. But only the right targets. I can tell you from experience that you won't "rip shit up" with an Elder's Spiked Club fighting a strength whoring tin can. Takes ages...

I still want damages back.

Offline HappyPhantom

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #80 on: October 24, 2014, 10:09:46 pm »
+2
So, instead people paying upkeep for high tier armors should pay for "not working protection" but being damaged by a tiny 4PD bow?
When I play in peasant gear with a wooden stick, I don't expect to be able to do damage to a tin can. But you want the archery equivalent to kill? You wanna tell me that would be balanced?

I believe you missed my point completely.
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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #81 on: October 25, 2014, 12:44:21 am »
+2
Pretty sure there are still archers with the smaller bows, putting arrows in heads left and right, killing people with it. But only the right targets. I can tell you from experience that you won't "rip shit up" with an Elder's Spiked Club fighting a strength whoring tin can. Takes ages...

l2p? Because that was what I was going. Full +3 black gothic plate with all the bells and whistles 27/18 and I just slapped that fool around the head like it ain't no thing and his raggedy arse body hit the floor multiple times.
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Offline Jeade

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #82 on: October 25, 2014, 02:48:41 am »
+2
(click to show/hide)

While I do think it's nice to say "if you can hit their head, you should be able to," I don't think that's a totally honest answer.
If that were the case, make ranged pinpoint accurate across the board.
As a few of us have said, archers were never the "snipers" in this mod, and we all know just how well Native's approach to sniper accurate archery is.
The trade off between archery and xbow has always been one between lower damage, lower accuracy with plenty of ammunition and higher rate of fire, and high damage, high accuracy, low ammunition, and lower rate of fire.
The "70-80%" bit that I had brought up was talking about some fairly long distances, say 100-150+ yards.
If you center your shot, you're most likely going to hit your target.
70% may even be on the low side, because shots still seemed to stay very much to the center, even if your reticle was wide.
The only way to truly miss was to fire before your reticle had settled, or if you moved a moment before taking a shot.
The bottomline is that, even with a noticeable weight penalty and 160wpf pre-patch, archers were still beyond capable of hitting their target if they were skilled.
Even with accuracy as high as it is now, while it seems substantial, isn't really making much of a difference besides allowing for even better shot placement (which again, wasn't particularly troublesome before).
If you're looking at it with some experience here or there and looking at some numbers, I do have to agree with Sharpe that there is a human element here, and empirical observation should play an equal role.

As for the athletics cap, that's interesting.
It's a shame it can't be made only to affect only certain skills.
The big problem I see with increasing weight is that, the moment an archer drops his 50 metric tons of equipment, he'll still likely have a chance to get away.
My approach back in the day was to drop my gear, let people chase me, then run a wide circle back to my gear, pick it up and start shooting again.

To your point about San: Wouldn't you say that, just because a few archers or horse archers are above average in skill, it's unfair to change the potency of all archers simply because a few of them are irritatingly skilled?



Mild sarcasm below
Archers, hear me!
The effects of the recent nerfs have caused panic.
I don't have to tell you things are bad. We all know things are bad.
When it comes to bows and arrows, a dollar buys a nickle's worth. Our banks are going bust.
There's no end to it!
Each patch brings a new nerf.
And they casually tell us there's been another 15 homicides and 63 violent crimes against us as if that's just the way it's supposed to be!
We know things are bad. Worse than bad.
They're crazy. It's like all the balancers everywhere are going crazy, and we don't enjoy or play archery anymore.
We sit at our computers and, slowly, the archer community is getting smaller and we say "Please, at least leave Hirlok alone!"
"Let us have our Doritos and Mountain Dew and Internet and we won't say anything! Just leave archery alone!"

Well I'm not going to leave you alone.

I want you to get MAD.
I don't want you to bitch or whine
(coughkesh) or write to your Congressmen, because they have nothing to do with this game anyway.
I don't know what to do about archers kiting, bow damages and complex algorithms, or the goddamn Europeans.
All I know is first, you've got to get MAD.
You've got to say
I'M AN ARCHER GODDAMNIT. MY CLASS HAS VALUE!!


So.
I want you to get up now.
I want all of you to get up out of your chairs.
I want you to get up right now and go to the window, open it, and stick your head out and yell
I'M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GONNA TAKE THIS ANYMORE!
« Last Edit: October 25, 2014, 03:30:56 am by Jeade »
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Offline Big_Nat_Mouth

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #83 on: October 25, 2014, 06:52:16 am »
+1
Molly... yur poitless.. sorry lol

Offline Molly

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #84 on: October 25, 2014, 08:40:09 am »
-1
I still want damages back.
So you can go 28:3 per map instead of 23:3?  :?
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Offline Jeade

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #85 on: October 25, 2014, 10:37:44 am »
+2
So you can go 28:3 per map instead of 23:3?  :?

I find that most of my score comes from using my sidearm instead of the bow.
Who knows, maybe if Algarn switches to 2h, he'll go 30:3.
That's what we're going for anyway, right?
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Offline Lord_Kitazawa_of_Voodoo

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #86 on: October 25, 2014, 11:13:04 am »
+2
Wow.... what a long-winded shitstorm of pent-up rage, skewed perspectives and (surprisingly) some decent suggestions.

I can only speak from my personal experience.  My main has been an archer for about a year, give or take a few months, and 90% of the time my set-up has been MW Long Bow and one stack of bodkins + one stack of regular arrows and a 0 slot sword.  I'm actually incredibly pleased with this patch overall.  Over the past few days, I feel that my score has more accurately reflected my performance than it did pre-patch.  When I'm accurately predicting my target's movement, I do well.  When I'm completely shitting the bed, I've had a negative K:D.

Archery provides a different experience from melee classes.  In my experience, it's a bit slower paced and focuses on the player's ability to accurately measure speed, judge distance, and predict the target's movement/notice movement patterns.  Some players are naturally better at these skills, while others (such as myself) have to practice archery for a while before they can be consistently effective.  Infamous archers are usually long-time players (the experience making it easier to predict other players' movements) who have either practiced archery enough or are naturally good at judging speed and distance.  Rohypnol, for example, is ridiculously effective as any ranged class he plays because he has played for a long time and (it seems) is naturally good at judging speed and distance.  I specifically recall him respeccing to archer after some patch within the last year (I can't remember when, sue me) and topping the scoreboard all day long.  He then proceeded to proclaim archery as an easy class, and to be fair, it seemed pretty easy for him.

Item balancing shouldn't be based on these types of players.  I read this entire thread and dismissed basically every "archery is still completely viable" post that used Algarn's position on the scoreboard as proof.  Algarn seems be one of the top archers in EU, so it's fairly dumb to base the balancing of archery on his scores.  People rarely complain when melee classes top the board with ridiculous scores, but when an archer has a couple great rounds, half of the server has fucking seizures and asthma attacks from the sperglord rage.  This, it seems, is based off of frustration because they never had a chance to fight back.

I'm a bit too lazy to quote every post I saw, but I hope anyone reading this can read previous posts and make the connections.
Let's address the arrow count change.  I can't believe I'm saying this, but I completely agree with Tydeus (pinch me, is it real?) I think the nerf was too severe, but that decreasing the arrow count is good for the server.  Sure, archers may not be able to sit in the back of the field and take endless shots anymore, but it forces us to be more selective about which shots we take rather than develop carpal tunnel from firing non-stop for the entire round.  Over the past few days, I have not noticed the arrow count nerf decrease my effectiveness. It has only stopped me from taking across-the-map shots and has encouraged me to wait for surer shots before firing.  This type of more thoughtful, targeted play is better for the server and doesn't necessarily decrease an archer's potential effectiveness (except perhaps in large servers - learn to scavenge for arrows!!!), although it may require archers to change the way they play.  In fact, being closer to the action forces archers to rely on their teammates for protection.  Isn't this the type of teamwork that the OP was encouraging? Inter-class reliance?

Next, the accuracy increase.  In order to make up for the ammo nerf, accuracy was increased on bows.  Also, players are more accurate because of the level buff from this patch.  I have 170 wpf in archery and am very accurate with my long bow, even in medium-light armor.  This buff has not necessarily increased my performance by an absurd amount, but has caused my effectiveness to be more directly related to how well I am judging speed, distance, and movement patterns.  Pre-patch, it was a mixture of luck and personal performance.  Keeping in mind that any ranged class will always have an element of luck to it, we should look to minimize the role luck plays and maximize the player's skill.  Say, for example, my reticule is roughly the size of the target's entire body.  My shot has the potential to hit the torso (most likely), hit the head (less likely), or miss completely.  The outcome in this situation is based on luck, not the skill of the player.  Let's replace the body-sized reticule with a completely tight reticule (maybe twice the size of a target's head at medium distance?) and the potential outcomes are based much more on where the player is aiming and much less on luck.  If the player is able to track the movement of the target's head (hard at any decent distance), they deserve that headshot.  If he can track the torso, he hits the torso.  If he slips, or has a temporary ballsack-cramp, or doesn't track the target properly, he misses.  This has been my experience over the past few days - I hit (or don't hit) where I'm aiming.  Maybe we need to further re-balance other properties of archery to compensate, but the general idea behind the accuracy buff is a good one.

Third, the damage nerf.  Personally, I'm a fan of this nerf.  Despite Jeade & Co's supposed tests, I have still been able to kill plenty of people post-patch.  Granted, I'm using the heaviest bow, but I've seen other archers with as low as horn bows be effective as well.  Nomad and Tatar bows are cheap and light.... they shouldn't have the killing power of a more expensive, heavier bow.  The simple sword shouldn't be as effective as an arming sword, so stop whining.  Either use a smaller bow, save money, and hold your tongue, or shell out the gold and pay for a heavier bow.

Lastly (I think), is the cost aspect of archery.  As long as I've been playing, archery has been somewhat of a money drain.  In fact, I'm currently poor as shit (although that could be due to terrible money-management skills).  On a x1, I lose money. On a x2, I generally lose a little money.  x3 and above, I tend to come out on top.  Perhaps other people have had different experiences, but that's how it usually turns out for me.  There are tricks to cut down the cost of archery.  Using 1 stack of bodkins on top of 1 stack of a cheaper arrow stack has saved me tons of money!  Anybody who has played archer for 15 minutes knows how ball-breaking the bodkin repair is.  Use a cheaper sidearm - I kill plenty of people in heavy armor with my Nordic Short Sword and 0 wpf (although admittedly, 8 PS).  If you don't have a build with some melee capability, stick by a buddy and use him as a bodyguard.  If you still can't make money, just play on an alt and transfer excess gold to your archer.  Despite all the crying, I haven't found making money in c-RPG to be impossible, even as an archer with a longbow and bodkins.

TL:DR?
Stop being so fucking lazy and at least skim through what I posted.  I'm only mildly retarded, so you may find it worth reading.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2014, 11:16:39 am by Lord_Kitazawa_of_Voodoo »
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Offline Algarn

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #87 on: October 25, 2014, 01:01:47 pm »
+4
I disagree Voodoo, since people take a shitoad of IF, armor, and therefore, archery's damages should have stayed like they were. Don't know about ammo, but 2 more arrows and 1 or 2 less weight  wouldn't hurt. I have sometimes the feeling to be killing only the wounded and the unaware players on the battlefields (or also the retards who come to me, and do not even try to dodge). Picking up targets is a  good idea, but what if half of the server like it is the case in EU is wearing around 70 body armor ? On another point, I do not even fear other archer, they became a prey for me, since too much accuracy has been given and I got pin point accuracy with 10 PD and heavy stuff. If archery would have been left alone, it'd would have been an indirect nerf, but removing both damage and arrows means :

1) you can't go hybrid archer easily : you'll trade the bit of damage of your bow, and will end up spammed by agi whores, and even STR whores. Don't forget you can't use anymore a two handed and a 1 slot bow, since you're going to deal no damage, and will have only 14 arrows.

2) Having lower ammount of damage, and also a lower ammount of arrows means what does it means : you'll have to hit more your target to make it die, especially with 9PD and less, but you won't have a lot of ammo for that. Either they are going to dodge your shots with 8 ATHL or they are going to stack your arrows in a ridiculous way in a huge plate, catch you, and start the spam.

3) Increasing the weight to 10 per +3 arrow bag while removing 5 arrows to each means you have to take two bags, and wear 20kg on your back. You won't be able to escape in any situation, except if you have 8 athl and no PD or you drop your bow (which, in both cases, ends up with you dead).

I do not personally think archery is still viable, nowadays, I end up being the only one with a decent score, just because of my level 37, my build, and the fact I almost only played archery and crossbows (made 3000 kills on my unique melee alt, was good, but boring to me).

Offline Tydeus

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #88 on: October 25, 2014, 04:10:54 pm »
+1
too much accuracy has been given and I got pin point accuracy with 10 PD and heavy stuff.
1) you can't go hybrid archer easily : you'll trade the bit of damage of your bow, and will end up spammed by agi whores, and even STR whores. Don't forget you can't use anymore a two handed and a 1 slot bow, since you're going to deal no damage, and will have only 14 arrows.

3) Increasing the weight to 10 per +3 arrow bag while removing 5 arrows to each means you have to take two bags, and wear 20kg on your back. You won't be able to escape in any situation, except if you have 8 athl and no PD or you drop your bow (which, in both cases, ends up with you dead).
So if you have more WPF than you need in archery, why not, I don't know, put the points into something more useful to you? If you're getting spammed, you could lower your archery wpf by 15 and get 80-100 1h wpf. We might give back 1 more damage, but at the moment, it looks like we're going to keep archery focused around high accuracy (we'll likely be increasing it even further with a small damage increase as well).

Here was the analysis I posted in the Item Unbalance thread yesterday. As of yet, the only person to reply was San, but he agreed and, I feel like I'm a bit justified in saying; no, it was a "totally honest answer."

While I do think it's nice to say "if you can hit their head, you should be able to," I don't think that's a totally honest answer.
If that were the case, make ranged pinpoint accurate across the board.
As a few of us have said, archers were never the "snipers" in this mod, and we all know just how well Native's approach to sniper accurate archery is.
Native archers have very high projectile speed to go with their pinpoint accuracy, not to mention high damage (especially considering native soak/reduce values.)

I have recently realized that we are in a splendid position to be doing this, as we have just changed the most important requirement for it to work effectively. The general proposal in short? Raise accuracy on nearly all bows by a fair bit, so that anything over 9 WM is completely useless and results in zero accuracy increase (aside from, perhaps, the Long Bow). Why do this? Because we already gave archery the ability (perhaps necessity) of becoming more str focused. This will automatically reduce the amount of kiting, as well as the ability to do so, that agility archers have.

The past few days I have concluded that with respect to damage, any bow that has an abundance of accuracy is significantly better off being used with reduced wpf and higher PD. Any bow that already has good damage, also now has increased accuracy such that only using the minimum, with perhaps the exception of the Bow, is on the cusp of not gaining anything by using 27+ agi. Meaning that, with the increased athletics on the server (not everyone, but both extremes have increased for melee), kiting would seem to be less of a worry for higher PD requirement bows.

Furthermore, with wpf affecting damage as it does, stacking wpf atm (and especially before this patch) was too effective, thanks to the multifaceted benefits. This change necessarily reduces the status quo making WM and WPF less of a necessity for Archers and thanks to the necessary skill point sink of PD, unlike with crossbows, you don't have to worry quite so much about a flood of hybrid archers as you would with crossbows were you to make this change there (although there's certainly room for increasing accuracy for crossbows).

To put what happened to archery with this most recent patch into a different perspective: before, you were most likely to see all archery builds having 3-6 (and maybe a 7pd build here and there); post patch what you're more likely to see in two/three weeks time, is 5-10 pd builds, but without the risk of damage values getting out of hand, as well as their ability to maintain decent similar accuracy.

What does this change mean for archers? Hybrids will be able to spare more wpf for their melee stats. Hybrids will have access to higher amounts of PS. Hybrids will be able to wear more armor. Dedicated archers will have access to higher degrees of accuracy than previously allowed. The potential is there to reduce quiver weights significantly for increased effectiveness to all archers.

Here's a quick example of what I had in my head, just keep in mind, I'm not satisfied with the amount of testing I've done quite yet, so things are subject to change, not just at other balancers' requests, but as I check things out further as well. Also, keep in mind that -1 bow damage = 8 wpf worth of accuracy and +1 bow accuracy = 14 wpf worth of accuracy. So in comparison to what we had prior to the Revival Patch, these stats give some bows ~70 wpf worth of accuracy. That's a high degree of potential skill point savings, or increase in accuracy, if that's what you want.

Short Bow (this one's in a rather curious spot, balance wise. Might be best to just leave it for now and see what we can do later, with the other stats set in stone)
weight: 2
accuracy: 96
difficulty: 1
speed rating: 62 > 60
missile speed: 42
thrust damage: 20 cut
cost: 871

Nomad Bow(Subject to change upon proper damage test. Accuracy increases here should make it significantly easier to hybrid with, as well as reduce the necessity of wpf)(will likely change significantly when I can figure out what to do with it)
weight: 2.4
accuracy: 102 > 105
difficulty: 2
speed rating: 68
missile speed: 48 > 45
thrust damage: 18 cut > (-2 from Tatar Bow)
cost: 1356

Tatar Bow (Subject to change upon proper damage test.)(will likely change significantly when I can figure out what to do with it so it has a clear niche that isn't "ha bow" like the Yumi, and also not a semi-duplicate Horn Bow)
weight: 2.4
accuracy: 102 > 105
difficulty: 3
speed rating: 65 > 61
missile speed: 46 > 43
thrust damage: 19 cut > (Horn Bow damage -1)
cost: 3787

Horn Bow (Greatly subject to change. Unsure here as again, I haven't gotten around to experimenting with it after the patch)
weight: 2.7
accuracy: 103 > 104
difficulty: 5
speed rating: 59
missile speed: 44 > 42
thrust damage: 21 > 22/23
cost: 7896

Bow (Much less accurate since this bow is staying at 4pd and remains the only low tier bow with good damage capabilities, even with low PD).
weight: 3.5
accuracy: 101 > 100(maybe keep it at 101 since the rus is gaining even more of an accuracy advantage, and is therefore all the better to hybrid with, assuming one can afford twice as much upkeep)
difficulty: 4
speed rating: 58 > 56
missile speed: 42 > 41
thrust damage: 25 > 26
cost: 5188
Can't use on horseback

Yumi
weight: 3.2
accuracy: 105
difficulty: 6
speed rating: 59
missile speed: 38
thrust damage: 23 > 24
cost: 8658

Rus Bow
weight: 3.7
accuracy: 105 > 107
difficulty: 6
speed rating: 56 > 57
missile speed: 41
thrust damage: 25 > 26
cost: 9974
Can't use on horseback

Long Bow
weight: 4
accuracy: 106 > 107
difficulty: 6 > 7(MAYBE, might just keep it at 6)
speed rating: 52 > 54
missile speed: 40
thrust damage: 28 > 29(Might keep this at 28 if difficulty is raised)
cost: 11100
Can't use on horseback



All weights below to be reduced (further) by 2 or 3 if bow accuracies

Arrows
weight: 8 > 3
max ammo: 15 > 16
thrust damage: 4 cut > 5
cost: 377

Barbed Arrows
weight: 8 > 4
max ammo: 13 > 14
thrust damage: 6 cut > 7
cost: 2120

Tatar Arrows
weight: 8 > 4
max ammo: 11 > 12 (Needs to be differentiated a bit more from Bodkins)
thrust damage: 9 cut
cost: 4099 > 3211 (20% decrease in repair cost, might change repair frequency proportionately instead, due to strategus)

Bodkin Arrows
weight: 8 > 4
max ammo: 10
thrust damage: 1 pierce
cost: 5058 > 3808 (25% decrease in repair cost, might change repair frequency proportionately instead, due to strategus)
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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #89 on: October 25, 2014, 04:16:19 pm »
0
Anything that leads archery into a non-kite melee viable option, is the best action route to take. This is a no-brainer so yeah.