Author Topic: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters  (Read 12358 times)

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Offline Jeade

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Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« on: October 23, 2014, 12:04:38 am »
+9
When I first started playing cRPG in early 2011, archery was pretty scary.
Archers could really tear shit up, and they were nerfed accordingly into more of a support role.
If enemies were out in the open, I'd shoot for the chest or head in my best effort to get a kill, but when teammates were working on taking someone down, I'd aim strictly for the legs.
If I hit, it'd stun the enemy for a moment, just long enough for someone to get a hit in. If I missed and hit a teammate, I'd do less damage than an accidental TK headshot.
That support role worked really well for me, and I'm assuming it did with other archers and assisted melee teammates too.
We, as archers, were also able to help rid the match of cavalry, as well. Horse archers take first priority.
This lessened the stress put on melee infantry as they had less couched lances bearing down on them.
It required teamwork.

So, class counters.
"Balance" seems to have separated entirely from "class counters." The two should be holding hands.
Balance should not just be about making it less annoying for melee to deal with horse archers or correcting the longsword stats so it fits better in the sword hierarchy gag.
Each "class" should have a counter, and making each individual melee unit its own army isn't going to solve the problem unless the intention is to dig a large grave, fill it with archers, and cement it shut.
  • Archers play a necessary support role in keeping horse archers and other cavalry off their melee teammates.
  • Horse archers play a role in being a highly mobile archer, capable of flanking infantry and chasing away enemy cavalry.
  • Polearm users can have a very strong offense or play a supporting role similar to that of shielder.
  • Crossbow users support like an archer, but dish out higher damage on those wearing heavier armor.
  • Two-handers are the main brunt of the attack and, in turn, are supporting the rest of their team.

The key here is that everyone is supporting each other in one way or another.
If your archers fail to get rid of that pesky horse archer, and that horse archer only has to worry about getting within five feet of a melee unit, the horse archer will win.
This is not a broken game mechanic, but broken teamwork.

If your cav or xbowers don't get rid of the three archers on the hill, and your two-handers get shot to shit running up that hill, it is (say it with me) not a broken game mechanic, but broken teamwork.

Nerfing archery even further was not a progressive step in the right direction, and it will ensure less players will spec ranged.
I know a few guys who are only playing the mod just so they can retire and spec out of archery.
Arrows are now fewer per quiver and even heavier than before.
For an archer to carry as many arrows as he had before, arrow weight has effectively doubled.
This is insane.

After talking with a few guys who play as archers and some STF testing myself, archers are now also way too accurate.

TL;DR
In summary, class counters have been dropped from the balance discussion; every class needs to be equal to all other classes. Each melee unit is his own army.
Archery, especially horse archery, has been shit on the hardest because melee players find them annoying and impossible to catch/kill; however, poor teamwork is the issue, not a broken game mechanic.
Un-nerf archery. Play your class well. Use your class' strengths to your advantage, and remember you are an important supporting member of your team (unless we continue along the one-man army route).

I'd really like to see some honest, thoughtful input from others.
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I probably should note to the EU guys that I am an xbower, not an archer.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 01:18:29 am by Kalam »
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Offline Bittersteel

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2014, 12:07:33 am »
-2
TL;DR was too long. Need another that doesn't extend more then five words.

Offline Moncho

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2014, 12:09:51 am »
+5
Thing is, cRPG is played most of the time on pub servers, and teamwork in pub servers rarely if ever happens. cRPG helped towards this with banner balance and clans, but that has its issues too.
Also teamwork imo helps more ranged than melee (at average player level, not at competitive one), since it is much easier to collaborate with another guy shooting at people than in melee where you end up tking or being tkd often.

Offline Kaido

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2014, 12:11:29 am »
+5
I think as years pass archers get better and better so they have to actually nerf them in items/mechanics so they wont top the scores and rape everyone.Just imagine if you were playing an archer with same mechanics/items/dmg/speed you had b4 2 years.I don't think its fair since i didnt see them nerf melee or any other class like that.. :?

Offline Chosen1

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2014, 12:14:36 am »
-7
2h master race ist ubermensch

if you did not respec to a str 2h build you are playing this mod wrong
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Offline Rebelyell

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2014, 12:28:12 am »
+3
2h master race ist ubermensch

if you did not respec to a str 2h build you are playing this mod wrong

pff so 2010
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Offline Jack1

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2014, 12:31:19 am »
-3
I played ranged for a full generation twice before this latest patch, they were both after the previous large ranged change. during that time I was able to use a play style that allowed me to hit anybody on the field at anytime that I chose assuming that they were not holed up in the corner of the map in some sort of obstacle for my shots. any time that they decided to come after me I also had one handers at my disposal that allowed me to out melee anybody who was also not as good as me in melee.

there were times when I cleared out the server just because of my ability to beat people giving them zero chance to counter me. I haven't touched any ranged since this patch happened but I know that there are plenty of ranged that still have the ability to perform well. Xeen is on NA 1 at the moment and is hitting me in timing to allow his teammates to get free shots on me. I was on EU 1 Tuesday for about two maps, one of those maps I was the top dog, it was a compact city map. on the other map, an open map, algarn went 23-3 with the closest melee being 7 kills behind him.

The largest problem with ranged pre-patch is whenever they coordinated as a group. being able to help your teammates from any point on the map in a server were most everybody is casually playing to have fun is not a place were ranges coordination should be as powerful as it was pre-patch.
We're all nerds here, so it doesn't really matter.

Offline jtobiasm

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2014, 12:36:22 am »
+1
Meh, can still top eu1 as archer, I'm not complaining apart from all I want from them is to increase headshot damage.

oh yeah and maybe increase the number of arrows in a quiver

Offline San

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2014, 12:37:10 am »
+3
The burden of teamwork has been transferred from melee to ranged. Is there a problem with this? I do think that ammo + 2 would help (would give some arrows +3 at masterwork)

Offline 22nd_Earl_NoscopeGabe

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2014, 12:37:58 am »
+4
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Offline Algarn

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2014, 12:38:28 am »
+1
Buffing headshots with uber accuracy like it is now would lead to some huge abusing. Better putting back old damages ( a part of them at least), or at least bringing back the old ammounts of arrows.

Offline Warborn304

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2014, 12:43:39 am »
+3
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Offline Keshian

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2014, 12:51:32 am »
-1
Not sure where everyone is getting the super accuracy buff.  Pre-patch arrows went to where you aimed just like they do now.  There is a limit to accuracy and it has to do with player skill at leading shots properly.  Getting headshots is not any easier than it was before the patch unless you had really low wpf pre-patch and now can get normal wpf levels.
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Offline Tzar

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2014, 12:55:53 am »
+5
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Algarn top scored several maps in a row, I don't see why the rest of u have to bitch and moan....

Archery changed from spray n pray to somewhat more skill based rewarding gameplay.

Trash players wont get as many kills as before, good players will wreck havoc....

Try an get used to it, and get the best of it.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 01:07:07 am by Tzar »
I've never played a server where people split up as much or as often as on EU1.  No wonder range is having a field day.

Offline Keshian

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2014, 01:09:39 am »
0
Not really.  Was shooting plate armored guys in strat fight - took 6 arrows minimum to kill.  Unload whole quivers and did nearly no damage from hitting people with 10 pd mw longbow and mw bodkins.
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