Author Topic: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters  (Read 12321 times)

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Offline Auphilia

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #90 on: October 25, 2014, 05:37:25 pm »
+3
I think archery should be deadly. It should be a threat. If you see archers, you should feel the urgency to be forced to deal with them ASAP as a cavalry player, xbow player, archer, or shielder.
You should know that if you leave them there, they will do major damage to your team and you may end up losing. The problem is too many players don't give two shits about teamwork and are only interested in their own personal K/D. If a cavalry player sees a bunch of archers, he would rather avoid them and lance people in the ass and get more kills than to do his role as a counter to archery.

Archery has never been over powered because of its stats, it has only ever become powerful because too many players are cowards and unwilling to risk their own deaths to fulfill their class role.
The shielders won't pursue archers because they don't want to be kited around.
The cav won't pursue archers because they don't want to become dismounted.
All other infantry won't pursue them immediately because of obvious reasons.

However, if cavalry did start pursuing them, shielders would not be kited, cavalry would not be focused, and the archer threat would be eliminated unless they were also supported by their team (unlikely).

Archery is the class in the game that is most obviously balanced entirely on masterwork bows and arrows. Anyone who does not use masterwork is at such a disadvantage as an archer, that I personally don't even consider them a threat. It is ridiculous to only be effective with masterwork items. No other class in the game is ineffective without masterwork items. Anyone who specs into archery probably waits until they get all the masterwork gear before even testing the build, and even then, you might have to headshot people multiple times, end up being slower than most 2hers & polearms, and if you ever do well even once, everyone will lobby another nerf.

If we look at game balance from a meta perspective, we will see that whatever class is the easiest to play and maintain a high k/d is going to be the most played class all around the board. Two-handers and polearms have been the most played classes in all of warband history, and will likely always be. Naturally whatever counters these classes will cause those who play the class to cry nerf because they want to maintain their superior position as a class. If archers were ever stronger in whole (not talking about that one archer pro who is just ridiculously good at the game) then more players would play the class, however, we do not see that, and we have never seen that in crpg. If it happened, archers would want their counters to be nerfed, due to this vox populi effect we have. Although it may not be vox populi at all, it may just be that the balancers all play two-handed and polearm classes and have always played these classes *cough*.

TL:DR
I don't imagine this game will ever be properly balanced because too many players favor 2-handed and polearm classes. There is nothing inherently wrong with this, but it just shows how the majorities "fun" will always overshadow any sort of "balancing" and attempts to make the game fun for all.

I think every class should be deadly and powerful. Obviously a 2-hander and polearm has superiority in melee combat, and it should end right there.
Ranged players should have the advantage on infantry without shields, otherwise what the fuck do we need shields for?

To be fair, it is easier to hit someone in melee than to hit someone with ranged at a long distance (unless they are idiotically running in a strait line).
If all melee players who catch up to archers can basically 1-2 hit kill them, then why should archery not be as deadly?
Archery should be 2-4 hit kills, not 10, not 20, not 30 if you are a HA and have two quivers.

I don't even play the archer class, and I probably never will do a full gen as an archer. I'm a light cav player, a counter to archery. More archers would also be a counter to me, and even I can admit they should be buffed.

The way it is now:

Cav kills the 2-3 archer players that are still left in existence on NA. And now cav has to deal with the insanely heavily armed pike ridden one shot kills your horse infantry mobs, that archers would have otherwise at least watered down by now...but they haven't...because they are nerfed to shit.
Then the infantry mobs just blob across the map like an Ebola virus eating up everything in its path. There is no room for countering any classes. There is no room for tactics. You do not need to try to coordinate your team, you just need to make sure your mob blob stays bigger than the enemy mob blob, and you win.

If archers were stronger, cav would have to carefully consider pursuing them.
Shielders would be needed up front.
Blobs would be discouraged because archers could just shoot into them always getting a hit.
Every class would have to play their role, and tactics would be encouraged.

Offline Lord_Kitazawa_of_Voodoo

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #91 on: October 25, 2014, 08:00:17 pm »
+3
I have sometimes the feeling to be killing only the wounded and the unaware players on the battlefields (or also the retards who come to me, and do not even try to dodge).

That's true, I tend to target lightly armored and/or wounded players.  Personally, though, if I damage a heavily armored player but don't get the kill, that's alright with me.  As long as I help my team win the round, I don't much care whether I'm on top of the scoreboard with a lot of kills.  Archery can feel a bit underpowered, but if you land shots consistently, the overall damage output is still high.

1) you can't go hybrid archer easily : you'll trade the bit of damage of your bow, and will end up spammed by agi whores, and even STR whores. Don't forget you can't use anymore a two handed and a 1 slot bow, since you're going to deal no damage, and will have only 14 arrows.

I have 8 PS and 6 athletics at level 36 and my archery isn't necessarily that much more underpowered than other archers.  8 PS is worth the damage sacrifice, as I'm able to kill a fair amount of people that come to kill me.  Personally, I don't think archers should be as good at melee as a dedicated melee build.  Hybrids are naturally weaker than a dedicated build; why should somebody be able to be a top tier archer and top tier melee at the same time?

2) Having lower amount of damage, and also a lower amount of arrows means what does it means : you'll have to hit more your target to make it die, especially with 9PD and less, but you won't have a lot of ammo for that. Either they are going to dodge your shots with 8 ATHL or they are going to stack your arrows in a ridiculous way in a huge plate, catch you, and start the spam.

I think the arrow count nerf was too severe- I would cut it by about 50%.  As for the damage nerf, perhaps -3 was a bit harsh, but I still seem to do decent damage, especially when I aim for the head.

3) Increasing the weight to 10 per +3 arrow bag while removing 5 arrows to each means you have to take two bags, and wear 20kg on your back. You won't be able to escape in any situation, except if you have 8 athl and no PD or you drop your bow (which, in both cases, ends up with you dead).

I completely agree with you on this one.  Arrows were heavy enough pre-patch.  Increasing the weight is ridiculous, considering they nerfed the arrow count.  They should either reduce weight to reflect # of arrows, or increase arrow count.  The athletics cap on people with PD seems to be a viable option to keep people from kiting, and would at least be better than 20kg arrows.
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Offline Algarn

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #92 on: October 25, 2014, 08:56:40 pm »
+4
Before, when I had 9 PD (when the PD "bug" was on), I was able to one hit people if I aimed at the head. Now, 10 PD is like 80% of hp. If we could get 2 of three damages back, it would solve the problem a bit, same for the arrows : having some of of them back would improve slightly the class, but still ending up weaker than it has been (that's the objective of the patch to me).

To sum up : give 2 damages back, some ammo, and we're fine. Archery won't be a easy class, but won't be impossible to play.

Offline Lord_Kitazawa_of_Voodoo

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #93 on: October 25, 2014, 09:02:55 pm »
+3
To sum up : give 2 damages back, some ammo, and we're fine. Archery won't be a easy class, but won't be impossible to play.

This is how every class should be.  I think this would be a reasonable re-balance.  Tydeus, make it happen!!!



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Offline Tzar

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #94 on: October 25, 2014, 09:13:31 pm »
-2
To sum up : give 2 damages back, some ammo, and we're fine. Archery won't be a easy class, but won't be impossible to play.

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I've never played a server where people split up as much or as often as on EU1.  No wonder range is having a field day.

Offline Algarn

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #95 on: October 25, 2014, 09:20:31 pm »
+1
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And what about shutting your whore mouth and getting the fuck off here, since you don't bring any valid argument, hm ?

Offline HappyPhantom

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #96 on: October 25, 2014, 11:01:09 pm »
+1
< all the things >

Thanks for taking the time to post all that (still thinking about what you're proposing)... 

Tydeus, what affects draw speed? I've always assumed bow speed and WPF?

I guess I'm thinking about the fact you're directing archers to be balanced agi/str builds to str builds rather than agi builds... Especially with your comments about putting points elsewhere... This is hard for me to get my head around, because the three years I've been playing, it's been all about the need for ath to counter arrow weight, and compensate for my lack of ps in a melee fight, low weight armour to counter WPF penalty, and tons of WPF for accuracy. I feel like you want to make a big paradigm shift! and I' still pondering the feasibility of a more str centric build.

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #97 on: October 25, 2014, 11:11:29 pm »
+6
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Offline Sharpe

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #98 on: October 26, 2014, 01:53:58 am »
+3


To sum up : give 2 damages back, some ammo, and we're fine. Archery won't be a easy class, but won't be impossible to play.

Hell I'd be happy with 1 damage back, and 4 arrows back per quiver.
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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #99 on: October 26, 2014, 02:22:37 am »
+3
(click to show/hide)
Cav kills the 2-3 archer players that are still left in existence on NA. And now cav has to deal with the insanely heavily armed pike ridden one shot kills your horse infantry mobs, that archers would have otherwise at least watered down by now...but they haven't...because they are nerfed to shit.
(click to show/hide)

Very, very, very well said.
Was talking with Artyem the other day and (this is relevant to the part of your quote not spoiler'd) he had mentioned how annoying it was that everyone was really tanky after the patch.
He mentioned he thought it was partly to do with archers' inability to do enough damage to soften targets up or pick anyone off anymore.

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Offline Keshian

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #100 on: October 26, 2014, 09:08:39 am »
-1
(click to show/hide)

First, most archers were not 3-6 powerdraw before the patch (do you play this mod?, 3? really?  just pulling numbers out of your ass there buddy?).  6-8 was probably the most common range by far, for many reason including many also played strategus battles and bows available were always a  consideration, you could see that by the number of people using horn bows and longbows on the server and the damage they produced.  Most of the top archers I knew had similar builds to mine 24-21 (or they would have 21-21 depending on level).  Bagge was the notable exception with 6.

Secondly, do you grasp how shoot speed works?  Last time they reduced the shoot speed they had to revert it.  Why?  because it vastly decreases damage on mid to long range shots.  Yumi bow was shit unless you were charging toward them as horse archer getting speed bonus for decent damage, then the accuracy is worthwhile.  Also, it makes the drop so significant that you heavily favor only close ranged shots.  Basically the shots that take more actual skill (mid to long range you need to predict and understand movements of target for longer period of time in the future - takes a LOT more skill) you are saying are bad, while the impossible to miss shots (unless you shoot teammates in the back of the head in melee) should be favored by that stupid change.

Now you are reducing all the missile speed of the lower tier bows to almost yumi bow status, which combined with the low powerdraw (they added those increased shoot speeds to lower tier bows to actually make them not completely useless but somewhat effective, which you are now reversing an making 100% useless (congrats for another idiotic attempt at "item balancing by someone who doesn't understand item balance except as it favors his own personal playstyle").  The drop in shoot speed makes the arrows drop dramatically in damage, even relatively close shots will do very little damage because the lack of shoot speed to maintain the damage.

About the only semi-decent change you have is listed as tentative - making longbows 7 difficulty.  That was LONG overdue ever since it was made a significantly better bow compared to rus bow in damage - will make those minimum powerdraw users max wpf not be able to use the longbow bodkins 6 pd 181 wpf setup anymore, which was pretty OP in strat.  talking of strat you do realize the automatic peasant gear includes short bows (pretty much the only time you ever saw them in strat) - which already were the weakest damage weapons of the setup - pitchforks and cudgels did fricken more damage (8 arrows to kill peasants) and now you nerf it even more??  You are wrecking balance in a part of the mod you have almost never played and have no grasp of balance.  Why?  Because in your arrogance you think your quite limited experience is the best judge of item balance - well sorry to say but based on your past choices its pretty obvious your sense of balance is FUBAR and you need to get that arrogant stick out of your ass before you can ever hope to do a good job as an item balancer.

there is a lot more, but its obvious your too blinded by your preconceived opinions on archery to learn from those who actually have played archery a LOT (I'm sure you are a great cs:go player), which this thread is currently filled with and your peers don't seem to give enough of a shit to make the effort required to overrule chadz' current pet monkey.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2014, 09:16:21 am by Keshian »
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Offline Kafein

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #101 on: October 26, 2014, 12:08:58 pm »
0
Why not try to acknowledge the issues and complaints and work towards a solution or a compromise?

Because nobody in the archer community ever did acknowledge the issues and complaints and work towards a solution or a compromise. I don't see why I should, now that most problems were fixed. I think the current state of ranged weapons is a huge step forward, and is a much better compromise than the previous one. I will continue telling you to get a shield lol because this is a valid argument according to your standards. I didn't see any of you trying to compromise when your class dominated, so arguing that I should "do it for teamwork" is really hilarious, when obviously none of you care about teamwork more than I do.

Offline Tydeus

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #102 on: October 26, 2014, 02:11:29 pm »
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Are you seriously just pissed off 24 hours a day?
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Offline Johammeth

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #103 on: October 26, 2014, 03:25:34 pm »
+10
I'm pretty sure that if Kesh and Tydeus were to have makeup sex right now, the orgasmic release of that much passion would un-make Newtonian physics.
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Offline Mr_Oujamaflip

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Re: Thoughts on 4.0 Archery Nerf and Class Counters
« Reply #104 on: October 26, 2014, 03:47:32 pm »
+3
Hello.

I got bored of reading by about the 5th page.

So.

Archery has always been frustrating for me because I'm both not very good at it and a massive shield hater.

Few things are as frustrating as being shot in the hand and losing a massive chunk of HP, this tends to be more prevailent with crossbows but it can still happen with archers too.

This has been basically fixed by the low damage. However I do feel like headshots should do more damage to encourage people to aim better. Hit the face, get a kill, hit the rest, it takes more shots as you would expect. This with the increased accuracy would go better than a general damage buff. Reward skill as much as possible. Now it's not impossible to KO a guy with bodyshots, especially with a long bow and bodkins but it takes a few hits. My point is stop aiming there, shoot me in the face, stop being lazy.

On the subject of Athletics. Heavier weapons will slow you down, but so has shifting the focus away from throwing everything into WPF once you've got your bow. This I think will help a lot, more than the heavy arrows ever did. You've also got to take into account the ammo. Low ammo means less pot shots, higher accuracy means less need for pot shots. Also means archers cant kite forever nor can they hold a fortified position they have to go and get some more ammo.

Keeping the ammo counts down and the accuracy high should be the most important thing. Reduced damage should stay as long as the headshot damage multiplier is increased. People are still killable but only if you shoot well. As it should be.

Should also weed out shit archers lowering player counts.