Throwing needs a serius buff <-----------------------------

[Boerenlater]

In the numbers you posted it was 32% for the large warhorse (which isn't a slow horse, but rather average), so yeah it's more than 10%, but still not nearly enough to actually kill the darned beasts. And that exactly is my problem; I can still kill infantry and especially light infantry, but what I would like to do is hunt cav and that I can no longer do. Without throwers the only ranged class that heavy cav is afraid of is arbalesters. Buffing speed bonus would punish them for choosing the wrong target.

Horse throwing damage was indeed quite high at one point, but their lack of ability to scavenge ammo made my KDs actually drop compared to throwing on foot. Also at lower levels (30) I lacked important skills like PS and athletics, which made me quite useless in most maps on EU1.

I agree completely. Hunting cav is not viable anymore. Not enough damage and/or ammo to hunt down more than 1 horse. And then I'm not even considering hunting ha who pepper you with a constant stream of arrows while you're not in throwing range.

Pure (horse) throwers just aren't treated like a class on its own like 2h or archer.

[F i n]

With statements like this, it's difficult to filter out what you're really trying to say. Come on now.

What i meant by saying

(click to show/hide)

More Ammo just makes it worse IMO. Throwing Cut Weapons is slow, inaccurate and not effective. If you'd even add 100 ammo / slot - it wouldn't change a thing.

(that) is:


We should support the specific characteristics of each weapon:

Throwing Axes:

What the class actually is: The axe line basically is a combination of strong melee, and strong close-distance ranged. However on mid - long range, they're too inaccurate and slow to really be something you should rely on.

Now, the problem is that everything that's been done so far to compensate for the overall nerfs on ranged, was not helping the axe-line after all. And here's why:

Ranged Stun was removed --> you have much less oportunities to throw your axes because ppl will reach you faster than before. I know that's a nerf for every ranged class - but obviously those who have to be close to the enemy are handicapped the most. Of course, the good melee-potential of the whole axe-line kind of counters that - but at the same time it kind of restricts the MAIN Weapon Mode.

If you think increasing the ammo would solve that problem you're just wrong. And the same goes for the "accuracy buff" on axes - which basically does nothing except looking good on the paper - because they were really accurate if you used them on close range - and that's just the situation you SHOULD use them.

So instead of Buffing Axes in a way that doesn't buff them at all we should try to shape and support the characteristics.

That's the ONLY way to balance a class without destroying it - Shaping strength and weakness and hereby creating a niche and a contact point for other classes as well as for the class itself.

Absolutely no one should complain about being killed with 1 Shot if he charges a thrower directly. Just like no thrower should complain about being onehit by a 2hander he tried to defeat with stones.

This is one EXAMPLE:

(click to show/hide)

(+, -, = Indicating a positive, negativ or no change)

Heavy throwing axes: 2 Ammo (-), Dmg 50 Cut (+), 110 accuracy (-), Missile Speed 14 (-), Speed rating 97 (+), Weight 2.6(+)

Throwing axes: 3 Ammo (-), Dmg 43 Cut (+), 100 acc (-), Missile Speed 15 (-), Speed rating 99 (+), Weight 2.8 (+)

Franciscas: 3 ammo(-), Dmg 35 Cut (+), 120 acc (+), Missile Speed 15 (=), Speed rating 100 (+), Weight 2.2 (+)

Throwing Hammers Difficulty 4 (-), 3 ammo(=), Dmg 35 Blunt (=), 100 acc (+), Missile Speed 15 (+), Speed rating 99 (+), Weight 2.8 (+), Cost 4.200 (-)

Explanation: That kind of changes would make the Axe-Line (And the poor Hammer, no one is using at all) more viable to use in close combat, against cav and as a melee weapon, reviving the supportive role  - and at the same limiting it's use on long range shots.

In a nutshell: a bigger variety of possible and useful secondary and main builds

The phallus-like ones:

While Axes are basically for close combat purposes, the spear line requires a different approach. Those weapons should be used for mid range cav defense and to soften enemy lines as well as hunting single targets.
 
The melee mode isn't as important as it is for the Axes - however accuracy is a fortiori.

In this case we can savely use reality as a guide how to handle them: long, areodynamic projectiles are much faster than unbalanced, bulky ones. Also they are much more reliable when it comes to aimed shots, and you can carry much more ammunition since you can stack them or use a quiver. The penetration power is decent - but they're heavy and pretty unhandy.

Here's an example:

(click to show/hide)

(+, -, = Indicating a positive, negativ or no change)

Javelins: 6 Ammo (+), Dmg 36 p (+), 125 accuracy (+), Missile Speed 20 (+), Speed rating 80 (-), Weight 10 (-), Slots 2 (-), Difficulty 5 (-)

Jarids: 6 Ammo (+), Dmg 40 p (+), 123 accuracy (+), Missile Speed 22 (+), Speed rating 80 (-), Weight 10 (-), Slots 2 (-), Difficulty 6 (-)

Spears: 4 Ammo (+), Dmg 41 p (+), 120 accuracy (+), Missile Speed 20 (+), Speed rating 78 (-), Weight 10 (-), Slots 2 (-) Difficulty 5 (=)

Lances: 1 Ammo (=), Dmg 58 p (-), 130 accuracy (-), Missile Speed 19 (+), Speed rating 80 (=), Weight 5 (-), Slots 1 (=) Difficulty 7 (+)

Basically by making them heavier you help their supportive role - spear throwers won't join the big fights because they're slower, an more vulnerable in close combat. That balances their great damage potential also enabling the enemy side to avoid them.

It would also make them more dependent on their team's support.

By changing the difficulty and the lower speedrating you prevent high riding skill HT from taking advantage of the damage buff. It will be much harder to time your throws right, but if you hit, you kill - and i mean why not. In my opinion a thrown lance from horseback hurts at least as much as a couched one.

Low Damage Cut Throwing:

Those are really meant to be a sidearm. And i think they're doing their job just fine.

(click to show/hide)

However there's an interesting, new approach to that line: What if you'd make them inaccurate as fuck, deleting the difficulty, giving them more stopping power (by changing the damage class or damage values), and limit the ammo to 1/2 each Slot? This would actually make them quite interesting for all the pure melee players, giving them the oportunity to at least defend them selves agains ranged.

Just an idea. You might hate it. Even I'm not sure if i'd like that... ;)

Horse-Thrower Problem

Isn't a problem at all. I'd even say just change the speedbonus like it was before. The high damage is (was) well balanced by the really bad accuracy on Horseback - you really have to get close to place a good shot - but this also means, that your enemy has a much higher chance of oneshotting you too - that's something ppl seem to forget sometimes - Speedbonus works both ways.

Also, i'd like to throw in that the only thing, the speedbonus nerf achieved, was flooding eu1 with heavy armored cav.




----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, in order to wrap it all up in a few sentences:

The speedbonus nerf, as well as the stun-removal (as Kafein said before) was a big disempowerment of all ranged classes that now results in a massive growth of the cavalry-population.

By trying to buff one of the biggest threats to cav (throwing) you did a step into the right direction but failed to see it through.

Throwing - of all classes the one that's most affected by the speedbonus change since it's the only rangedclass - except mounted ranged - that can attack WHILE moving - had to suffer a massive reduction of their offensive power (vs. their main enemy = cav).

This Damagereduction was balanced by giving accuracy - which doesn't aim for the real enemy (=cav) but for infantry - and doesn't even affect ALL Throwing weapons.

So what u basically did was NERFING Throwing, and BUFFING cav.

Denial doesn't help here. We need to find a solution.


And here comes my most important and final statement in this topic:


On top of this post i said "We should support the specific characteristics of each weapon" - and that means, we should try to obtain the main use of a class.

I think you guys DID actually notice, that throwing was underpowered after that patch - otherwise you wouldn't have tried to buff it again.

But what throwing needs is a real BUFF and not being fubbed of with a random increase of an attribute that doesn't even affect the gameplay at all.

Listen to your community - and listen to throwing veterans complaining - who, if not them, knows better what's going on?

I think i'm speaking for all if i say that we're really trying to help here.

My advice:

try dung instead of cutting off roots.



And just to make sure that this is not about me lusting for MORE DAMAGE, MORE KILLS, BETTER KD:

1) ppl who know me can confirm, that i play for fun. I don't give a shit if my K:D is 0:1000 as long as i'm enjoying myself and having a good time with my buds.
2) I have a cav alt, and i'm playing loads of infantry as well. So i know both sides. And i once really feared thrower's when i was playing Cav, just as much as i feared 2h when i was playing as a thrower.
3) I've been playing 2h, cav, Archery, 1h, 1h+Shield, Throwing, Horsethrowing, Horsearchery and Pole. And after that patch the only class i'm feeling useless with is throwing.
4) Don't forget that the main reason for me to even try and change something is that i've spent loads of time, looms, laughter, being-rapes and failure to finally find a build and the equipment that i really LIKE. And now it's just nothing except the being raped part.
5) When i respecc'd to 2h heavy cav i had a K:D of 20:1. But not even a tiny bit of fun.


So spare me all the "YOU ARE JUST CRYINGS BECAUSE YOU WANT TO BE ULTRA OVERPOWERED".

AND PLEASE! Stop degrading a class that requires Skill points as well as attribute points to a secondary, unimportant sidestory just because you're pissed being thrown at while reloading your 0 req. crossbow...

Cus thats the real bullshit here.

[Mendro]

(click to show/hide)

What i meant by saying

(click to show/hide)

More Ammo just makes it worse IMO. Throwing Cut Weapons is slow, inaccurate and not effective. If you'd even add 100 ammo / slot - it wouldn't change a thing.

(that) is:


We should support the specific characteristics of each weapon:

Throwing Axes:

What the class actually is: The axe line basically is a combination of strong melee, and strong close-distance ranged. However on mid - long range, they're too inaccurate and slow to really be something you should rely on.

Now, the problem is that everything that's been done so far to compensate for the overall nerfs on ranged, was not helping the axe-line after all. And here's why:

Ranged Stun was removed --> you have much less oportunities to throw your axes because ppl will reach you faster than before. I know that's a nerf for every ranged class - but obviously those who have to be close to the enemy are handicapped the most. Of course, the good melee-potential of the whole axe-line kind of counters that - but at the same time it kind of restricts the MAIN Weapon Mode.

If you think increasing the ammo would solve that problem you're just wrong. And the same goes for the "accuracy buff" on axes - which basically does nothing except looking good on the paper - because they were really accurate if you used them on close range - and that's just the situation you SHOULD use them.

So instead of Buffing Axes in a way that doesn't buff them at all we should try to shape and support the characteristics.

That's the ONLY way to balance a class without destroying it - Shaping strength and weakness and hereby creating a niche and a contact point for other classes as well as for the class itself.

Absolutely no one should complain about being killed with 1 Shot if he charges a thrower directly. Just like no thrower should complain about being onehit by a 2hander he tried to defeat with stones.

This is one EXAMPLE:

(click to show/hide)

(+, -, = Indicating a positive, negativ or no change)

Heavy throwing axes: 2 Ammo (-), Dmg 50 Cut (+), 110 accuracy (-), Missile Speed 14 (-), Speed rating 97 (+), Weight 2.6(+)

Throwing axes: 3 Ammo (-), Dmg 43 Cut (+), 100 acc (-), Missile Speed 15 (-), Speed rating 99 (+), Weight 2.8 (+)

Franciscas: 3 ammo(-), Dmg 35 Cut (+), 120 acc (+), Missile Speed 15 (=), Speed rating 100 (+), Weight 2.2 (+)

Throwing Hammers Difficulty 4 (-), 3 ammo(=), Dmg 35 Blunt (=), 100 acc (+), Missile Speed 15 (+), Speed rating 99 (+), Weight 2.8 (+), Cost 4.200 (-)

Explanation: That kind of changes would make the Axe-Line (And the poor Hammer, no one is using at all) more viable to use in close combat, against cav and as a melee weapon, reviving the supportive role  - and at the same limiting it's use on long range shots.

In a nutshell: a bigger variety of possible and useful secondary and main builds

The phallus-like ones:

While Axes are basically for close combat purposes, the spear line requires a different approach. Those weapons should be used for mid range cav defense and to soften enemy lines as well as hunting single targets.
 
The melee mode isn't as important as it is for the Axes - however accuracy is a fortiori.

In this case we can savely use reality as a guide how to handle them: long, areodynamic projectiles are much faster than unbalanced, bulky ones. Also they are much more reliable when it comes to aimed shots, and you can carry much more ammunition since you can stack them or use a quiver. The penetration power is decent - but they're heavy and pretty unhandy.

Here's an example:

(click to show/hide)

(+, -, = Indicating a positive, negativ or no change)

Javelins: 6 Ammo (+), Dmg 36 p (+), 125 accuracy (+), Missile Speed 20 (+), Speed rating 80 (-), Weight 10 (-), Slots 2 (-), Difficulty 5 (-)

Jarids: 6 Ammo (+), Dmg 40 p (+), 123 accuracy (+), Missile Speed 22 (+), Speed rating 80 (-), Weight 10 (-), Slots 2 (-), Difficulty 6 (-)

Spears: 4 Ammo (+), Dmg 41 p (+), 120 accuracy (+), Missile Speed 20 (+), Speed rating 78 (-), Weight 10 (-), Slots 2 (-) Difficulty 5 (=)

Lances: 1 Ammo (=), Dmg 58 p (-), 130 accuracy (-), Missile Speed 19 (+), Speed rating 80 (=), Weight 5 (-), Slots 1 (=) Difficulty 7 (+)

Basically by making them heavier you help their supportive role - spear throwers won't join the big fights because they're slower, an more vulnerable in close combat. That balances their great damage potential also enabling the enemy side to avoid them.

It would also make them more dependent on their team's support.

By changing the difficulty and the lower speedrating you prevent high riding skill HT from taking advantage of the damage buff. It will be much harder to time your throws right, but if you hit, you kill - and i mean why not. In my iopinion i think a thrown lance from horseback hurts at least as much as a couched one.

Low Damage Cut Throwing:

Those are really meant to be a sidearm. And i think they're doing their job just fine.

(click to show/hide)

However there's an interesting, new approach to that line: What if you'd make them inaccurate as fuck, deleting the difficulty, giving them more stopping power (by changing the damage class or damage values), and limit the ammo to 1/2 each Slot? This would actually make them quite interesting for all the pure melee players, giving them the oportunity to at least defend them selves agains ranged.

Just an idea. You might hate it. Even I'm not sure if i'd like that... ;)

Horse-Thrower Problem

Isn't a problem at all. I'd even say just change the speedbonus like it was before. The high damage is (was) well balanced by the really bad accuracy on Horseback - you really have to get close to place a good shot - but this also means, that your enemy has a much higher chance of oneshotting you too - that's something ppl seem to forget sometimes - Speedbonus works both ways.

Also, i'd like to throw in that the only thing, the speedbonus nerf achieved, was flooding eu1 with heavy armored cav.




----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, in order to wrap it all up in a few sentences:

The speedbonus nerf, as well as the stun-removal (as Kafein said before) was a big disempowerment of all ranged classes that now results in a massive growth of the cavalry-population.

By trying to buff one of the biggest threats to cav (throwing) you did a step into the right direction but failed to see it through.

Throwing - of all classes the one that's most affected by the speedbonus change since it's the only rangedclass - except mounted ranged - that can attack WHILE moving - had to suffer a massive reduction of their offensive power (vs. their main enemy = cav).

This Damagereduction was balanced by giving accuracy - which doesn't aim for the real enemy (=cav) but for infantry - and doesn't even affect ALL Throwing weapons.

So what u basically did was NERFING Throwing, and BUFFING cav.

Denial doesn't help here. We need to find a solution.


And here comes my most important and final statement in this topic:


On top of this post i said "We should support the specific characteristics of each weapon" - and that means, we should try to obtain the main use of a class.

I think you guys DID actually notice, that throwing was underpowered after that patch - otherwise you wouldn't have tried to buff it again.

But what throwing needs is a real BUFF and not being fubbed of with a random increase of an attribute that doesn't even affect the gameplay at all.

Listen to your community - and listen to throwing veterans complaining - who, if not them, knows better what's going on?

I think i'm speaking for all if i say that we're really trying to help here.

My advice:

try dung instead of cutting off roots.

And just to make sure that this is not about me lusting for MORE DAMAGE, MORE KILLS, BETTER KD:

1) ppl who know me can confirm, that i play for fun. I don't give a shit if my K:D is 0:1000 as long as i'm enjoying myself and having a good time with my buds.
2) I have a cav alt, and i'm playing loads of infantry as well. So i know both sides. And i once really feared thrower's when i was playing Cav, just as much as i feared 2h when i was playing as a thrower.
3) I've been playing 2h, cav, Archery, 1h, 1h+Shield, Throwing, Horsethrowing, Horsearchery and Pole. And after that patch the only class i'm feeling useless with is throwing.
4) Don't forget that the main reason for me to even try and change something is that i've spent loads of time, looms, laughter, being-rapes and failure to finally find a build and the equipment that i really LIKE. And now it's just nothing except the being raped part.
5) When i respecc'd to 2h heavy cav i had a K:D of 20:1. But not even a tiny bit of fun.


So spare me all the "YOU ARE JUST CRYINGS BECAUSE YOU WANT TO BE ULTRA OVERPOWERED".

Cus thats the real bullshit here.

(click to show/hide)

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[Utrakil]

Nice Ideas Fin. I agree with most of it.
BUT: I don't see any need to make spears jarvelines or Jarids 2slot.
I want to decide if I burden me with 10 weight for 6 ammo or only take 3 ammo for half the weight.
Also I don't see why the spear types should be heavier than axes. what the speartypes have more in wooden shafts the axes have more in metalheads.

That brings me to one important thing.
Make the weapon weight disappear as soon as the weapons are gone. It really gimps your melee capability a lot if you carry 8 (or 10 as fin wants) weight, even after your ammo is gone.

[Algarn]

Throwing isn't worth : saw a guy with 2 throwing lances still alive. Just fuck it. Being in plate doesn't mean being more protected than a tank, you will be pierced by projectiles with high velocity, the fact you wear some metal pieces doesn't matter. Archery is just a bit better than throwing, but it's the same when we talk about hybridization, just not possible. Would have loved to get 60 in 1h and 45 in 2h, instead of having to kite like a bastard. Firstly, you balancers make archers and throwers almost unable to kite by increasing the weight on ammunitions stacks, then you remove the speed bonus for almost every kind of ranged. Nicely done, now, I don't even see more than 5 archers/throwers on EU 1, just heavy cavs killing everything moving.

Please, just give us back the speed bonus, it becomes illogical that I survived to a jarid right in my head and I see some horses that look like porcupines, with every kind of throwing weapon and arrows stuck inside of their bodies.

[IG_Saint]

I'm not a fan of your proposed changes to javelin like weapons Fin. You're already vunerable to melee, because if you're caught in melee holding a javelin like weapon, you're most likely dead. The weight increase and the 2 slots is just going to make that even worse. Not to mention you've changed the long standing dynamic between jarids and throwing spears (jarids being stronger and more accurate, while spears have more ammo). You for some reason want to change that now to be the other way around?

And your changes to lances would completely destroy my build, a build I've had for years and that I've always been able to maintain a roughly 2.5 to 1 kill death/ratio on. Lances shouldn't be in the same category as the rest of the javelin weapons. Lances are the ultimate hybrid throwing weapon, they have the best melee capabilities and the worst ranged ones. You want to nerf their melee power (by upping the weight by a LOT) and you want to nerf their ranged power (by reducing their damage). The paltry missile speed buff is not going to help much in actually hitting things (especially with the accuracy nerf) and with the speed bonus nerf the 1 shotting power of lances is already greatly reduced.

Honestly, all that's needed is a point or 3 of damage buff to compensate the unneeded speed bonus nerf, and throwing is good. Why go through the bother to try and radically alter the way weapons are balanced and used.

[F i n]

I'm not a fan of your proposed changes to javelin like weapons Fin. You're already vunerable to melee, because if you're caught in melee holding a javelin like weapon, you're most likely dead. The weight increase and the 2 slots is just going to make that even worse. Not to mention you've changed the long standing dynamic between jarids and throwing spears (jarids being stronger and more accurate, while spears have more ammo). You for some reason want to change that now to be the other way around?

And your changes to lances would completely destroy my build, a build I've had for years and that I've always been able to maintain a roughly 2.5 to 1 kill death/ratio on. Lances shouldn't be in the same category as the rest of the javelin weapons. Lances are the ultimate hybrid throwing weapon, they have the best melee capabilities and the worst ranged ones. You want to nerf their melee power (by upping the weight by a LOT) and you want to nerf their ranged power (by reducing their damage). The paltry missile speed buff is not going to help much in actually hitting things (especially with the accuracy nerf) and with the speed bonus nerf the 1 shotting power of lances is already greatly reduced.

Honestly, all that's needed is a point or 3 of damage buff to compensate the unneeded speed bonus nerf, and throwing is good. Why go through the bother to try and radically alter the way weapons are balanced and used.

Oh don't get me wrong here! My "changes" are no real changes after all. I picked rather extreme examples to emphasize HOW you could change the weapons towards a bigger variety of usable builds.

That's why declared them as "examples" not "must-changes".

I'm not an item balancer, and i know that most of the values i changed might impact on a lot more things than i know - I was just trying to use common sense here & show a different way.


The whole weight-changes were meant to counter the high damage potential the whole pointy-throwing-family has, without actually cutting the damage itself. 

Bringing back the speed bonus would for example reenable you to do your job. On the other hand, the higher weight would counter further nerfs. Cus for the first time, Cut and Pierce throwing would be equal - yet different:

While the spear thrower has his advantages over a longer distance, the cut thrower could fight back once he's got through the rain of spears.

Same goes for all the other classes you're facing: u'll have a big window of time to get rid of them. But once they reach you - you have to fight (btw. with a really good polearm).

Your class would still work the way it worked before, but giving other classes the oportunity to make their classes work as well.

But once again: I'm just thinking loud here. 

[IG_Saint]

Oh don't get me wrong here! My "changes" are no real changes after all. I picked rather extreme examples to emphasize HOW you could change the weapons towards a bigger variety of usable builds.

That's why declared them as "examples" not "must-changes".

I'm not an item balancer, and i know that most of the values i changed might impact on a lot more things than i know - I was just trying to use common sense here & show a different way.

I get that they were examples. The problem is that you essentially want to completely overhaul all the spear type throwing weapons (and completely nerf the throwing lance, because again, it shouldn't be included in the spear type throwing weapons in the first place), while keeping the throwing axes pretty much the same. It's not just the values I disagree with, but the idea that those value need to be changed so drastically.

The whole weight-changes were meant to counter the high damage potential the whole pointy-throwing-family has, without actually cutting the damage itself. 

Nice idea, but all you want to do is nerf the survivability of the spear throwers in melee and against ranged.

Bringing back the speed bonus would for example reenable you to do your job. On the other hand, the higher weight would counter further nerfs. Cus for the first time, Cut and Pierce throwing would be equal - yet different:

While the spear thrower has his advantages over a longer distance, the cut thrower could fight back once he's got through the rain of spears.

Same goes for all the other classes you're facing: u'll have a big window of time to get rid of them. But once they reach you - you have to fight (btw. with a really good polearm). 

That is already the case! The cut thrower has the advantage in close combat, the spear thrower at long range. Why do you want to nerf the spear throwers close combat abilities even more? The fact that throwing axes can be used in melee is why the spears get to have better damage and accuracy in ranged. Why do you now want to nerf the spears' melee abilities and their defence against ranged weapons? And what nerfs are the throwing axes going to receive in return for those ridiculous spear nerfs?

Oh and yet again, this doesn't even apply to lances. I'll have a bigger window to try useless long range shots that 9 times out of 10 will miss? Well, that's a usefull use of lances....I save my lances for high priority targets and situations, while using the melee mode for 80% of my time and kills. I try and not waste shots on longe range targets.

Your class would still work the way it worked before, but giving other classes the oportunity to make their classes work as well.

You want to nerf my melee abilities, my survivability against ranged and my ranged power, but you're saying my class would still be exactly the same? Well thank god for that....

[Bulzur]

As a tyhrower, i'll just be happy if my disapeared throwing weapons didn't take slots and wouldn't weight me down anymore...

Can only use MW Jarids though, other things are pretty meh.

[San]

What i meant by saying

(click to show/hide)

More Ammo just makes it worse IMO. Throwing Cut Weapons is slow, inaccurate and not effective. If you'd even add 100 ammo / slot - it wouldn't change a thing.

(that) is:

Ah, I get it now, thanks. I was thinking that exaggerations are out of place for this type of discussion.

We should support the specific characteristics of each weapon:

Throwing Axes:

What the class actually is: The axe line basically is a combination of strong melee, and strong close-distance ranged. However on mid - long range, they're too inaccurate and slow to really be something you should rely on.

Now, the problem is that everything that's been done so far to compensate for the overall nerfs on ranged, was not helping the axe-line after all. And here's why:

Ranged Stun was removed --> you have much less oportunities to throw your axes because ppl will reach you faster than before. I know that's a nerf for every ranged class - but obviously those who have to be close to the enemy are handicapped the most. Of course, the good melee-potential of the whole axe-line kind of counters that - but at the same time it kind of restricts the MAIN Weapon Mode.

If you think increasing the ammo would solve that problem you're just wrong. And the same goes for the "accuracy buff" on axes - which basically does nothing except looking good on the paper - because they were really accurate if you used them on close range - and that's just the situation you SHOULD use them.

So instead of Buffing Axes in a way that doesn't buff them at all we should try to shape and support the characteristics.

I see what you're getting at. Either way, I believe that throwing did need to have its accuracy increase regardless of whether the damage was increased or decreased. The removal of the stagger definitely changed a lot of things, though. Now, the cut weapons can't really afford to be too much weaker than their pierce counterparts imo.

That's the ONLY way to balance a class without destroying it - Shaping strength and weakness and hereby creating a niche and a contact point for other classes as well as for the class itself.

Absolutely no one should complain about being killed with 1 Shot if he charges a thrower directly. Just like no thrower should complain about being onehit by a 2hander he tried to defeat with stones.

Problem with this is that you need like an 80-85p throwing weapon to reliably one shot based on how damage is calculated. Most of high damage is centralized to 30-40 damage (close to 50 for throwing lances) without extra multipliers like speed bonus. Also can't forget reduced damage from hitting limbs.

This is one EXAMPLE:

(click to show/hide)

(+, -, = Indicating a positive, negativ or no change)

Heavy throwing axes: 2 Ammo (-), Dmg 50 Cut (+), 110 accuracy (-), Missile Speed 14 (-), Speed rating 97 (+), Weight 2.6(+)

Throwing axes: 3 Ammo (-), Dmg 43 Cut (+), 100 acc (-), Missile Speed 15 (-), Speed rating 99 (+), Weight 2.8 (+)

Franciscas: 3 ammo(-), Dmg 35 Cut (+), 120 acc (+), Missile Speed 15 (=), Speed rating 100 (+), Weight 2.2 (+)

Throwing Hammers Difficulty 4 (-), 3 ammo(=), Dmg 35 Blunt (=), 100 acc (+), Missile Speed 15 (+), Speed rating 99 (+), Weight 2.8 (+), Cost 4.200 (-)

Explanation: That kind of changes would make the Axe-Line (And the poor Hammer, no one is using at all) more viable to use in close combat, against cav and as a melee weapon, reviving the supportive role  - and at the same limiting it's use on long range shots.

In a nutshell: a bigger variety of possible and useful secondary and main builds

This is why I think it'll be a nerf:
HTAs: 54c at +3 deals the exact same as current +3 jarids against 55 armour. Decreasing the ammo to 2 with inferior stats to jarids doesn't make it worth it, especially with the vastly decreased accuracy (increasing damage also decreases accuracy by a similar amount). In fact, all of the accuracy values listed are way too harsh. At 2 ammo, HTAs should have something like 53-54c and +10 accuracy. + throwing speed is good, though.

Throwing axes: Comparing these stats to current HTAs, they're just inferior. No need to go much further than this.

Francisca: -2 ammo is too harsh. +5 damage and +3 accuracy is more inaccurate than it is currently. Could work at 4 ammo, though, but it would still be on the weak side.

Throwing hammers: Increasing difficulty is like reducing accuracy by 5 points. 120 to 100 acc is a +? I think current hammers are alright, but still bad compared to spears since they don't have bonus against shield.

After looking at even these proposed numbers, the axe line is just pretty bad in general and need buffs.

The phallus-like ones:

While Axes are basically for close combat purposes, the spear line requires a different approach. Those weapons should be used for mid range cav defense and to soften enemy lines as well as hunting single targets.
 
The melee mode isn't as important as it is for the Axes - however accuracy is a fortiori.

In this case we can savely use reality as a guide how to handle them: long, areodynamic projectiles are much faster than unbalanced, bulky ones. Also they are much more reliable when it comes to aimed shots, and you can carry much more ammunition since you can stack them or use a quiver. The penetration power is decent - but they're heavy and pretty unhandy.

Here's an example:

(click to show/hide)

(+, -, = Indicating a positive, negativ or no change)

Javelins: 6 Ammo (+), Dmg 36 p (+), 125 accuracy (+), Missile Speed 20 (+), Speed rating 80 (-), Weight 10 (-), Slots 2 (-), Difficulty 5 (-)

Jarids: 6 Ammo (+), Dmg 40 p (+), 123 accuracy (+), Missile Speed 22 (+), Speed rating 80 (-), Weight 10 (-), Slots 2 (-), Difficulty 6 (-)

Spears: 4 Ammo (+), Dmg 41 p (+), 120 accuracy (+), Missile Speed 20 (+), Speed rating 78 (-), Weight 10 (-), Slots 2 (-) Difficulty 5 (=)

Lances: 1 Ammo (=), Dmg 58 p (-), 130 accuracy (-), Missile Speed 19 (+), Speed rating 80 (=), Weight 5 (-), Slots 1 (=) Difficulty 7 (+)

Basically by making them heavier you help their supportive role - spear throwers won't join the big fights because they're slower, an more vulnerable in close combat. That balances their great damage potential also enabling the enemy side to avoid them.

It would also make them more dependent on their team's support.

By changing the difficulty and the lower speedrating you prevent high riding skill HT from taking advantage of the damage buff. It will be much harder to time your throws right, but if you hit, you kill - and i mean why not. In my opinion a thrown lance from horseback hurts at least as much as a couched one.

Interesting. You're aware the weight difference is only 2 for all these buffs, though. Slightly more weight and tweaked stats, but I don't think the missile speed needs to be increased any more than they already are and decreasing accuracy is still bad. 20 missile speed is already great. Based on these stats, I would also prohibit jarids and spears from being used on horseback. Switching the difficulties of jarids and throwing spears I agree with, but I think the throwing spear stats you suggest are too weak in comparison. Jav difficulty kinds of kills them too, imo. It looks like jarids are the super weapons while the others are just.. there.

I think the stats you have for throwing lances are too much of a nerf. I think 2 slot, 3 ammo, and like 50p or 1slot, 2 ammo, 46p with adjusted accuracy and 6 difficulty would be good if you want to change it up, since expecting to 1shot opponents is too rare an occurrence anyways.

Overall I disagree with the slots and stuff, but I would agree with a damage buff for speed and weight changes, as well as the switch in difficulty of spears and jarids and throwing lance stuff I mentioned above.

The best HT build that worked for me so far is 15-24 and I believe 21-18 also works well. For those reasons, I don't think difficulty is too much of a barrier to HT.

Low Damage Cut Throwing:

Those are really meant to be a sidearm. And i think they're doing their job just fine.

I don't think so. I think they need a damage increase/weight decrease.

(click to show/hide)

However there's an interesting, new approach to that line: What if you'd make them inaccurate as fuck, deleting the difficulty, giving them more stopping power (by changing the damage class or damage values), and limit the ammo to 1/2 each Slot? This would actually make them quite interesting for all the pure melee players, giving them the oportunity to at least defend them selves agains ranged.

Just an idea. You might hate it. Even I'm not sure if i'd like that... ;)

Huh? 8 ammo down to 1 or 2? The ammo is what helps them defend against ranged. I think most would hate it. The difficulties on the lower shurikens and throwing knives make sense, but I would want to keep throwing daggers and snowflakes at 1 difficulty.

Horse-Thrower Problem

Isn't a problem at all. I'd even say just change the speedbonus like it was before. The high damage is (was) well balanced by the really bad accuracy on Horseback - you really have to get close to place a good shot - but this also means, that your enemy has a much higher chance of oneshotting you too - that's something ppl seem to forget sometimes - Speedbonus works both ways.

Also, i'd like to throw in that the only thing, the speedbonus nerf achieved, was flooding eu1 with heavy armored cav.

All it did was allow you to deal large amounts of damage while being safe from damage yourself. Heavy cav is a problem, though, but that's a change for heavy cav. Headshots don't work well against horses right now, which is kind of dumb. Trying out HT recently, the accuracy increase makes them pretty accurate on horse. Quite a few headshots that I aimed for landed.

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So, in order to wrap it all up in a few sentences:

The speedbonus nerf, as well as the stun-removal (as Kafein said before) was a big disempowerment of all ranged classes that now results in a massive growth of the cavalry-population.

By trying to buff one of the biggest threats to cav (throwing) you did a step into the right direction but failed to see it through.

Throwing - of all classes the one that's most affected by the speedbonus change since it's the only rangedclass - except mounted ranged - that can attack WHILE moving - had to suffer a massive reduction of their offensive power (vs. their main enemy = cav).

This Damagereduction was balanced by giving accuracy - which doesn't aim for the real enemy (=cav) but for infantry - and doesn't even affect ALL Throwing weapons.

So what u basically did was NERFING Throwing, and BUFFING cav.

Denial doesn't help here. We need to find a solution.

Do you think fixing cav headshot damage would help? Make the hurtbox the proper size, make the armour something like 1/2, and apply the current headshot multiplier from infantry to the horse. The improved accuracy would help throwers land highly damaging headshots.

Even so, I understand what you mean by the speed bonus by increasing it a little bit only if it's possible to change horse ranged penalty and tweak the way HA scales damage and accuracy. The problem still could just lie with heavy cav  .

[Kampfkarotte]

I'm asking myself right now, about one year ago, when all these nerfs haven't happened yet, what was the problem with throwing? Was throwing OP in these times?
Definitely not!
When I played thrower as good as I can (and I think I am a good thrower, ask Deatherage^^) I managed to be almost as good as 2h,pole or 1h.
I was ALMOST AS GOOD as a melee! Not as good or even better!
BUT: I was ok with it, I had mostly a positive KDR and all in all I  thought to myself, finally they managed to make classes balanced.

There was really no reason in my opinion to change anything with throwing, it was balanced and fun to play.
I wish they will reverse all the nerfs and make it like it was..

[Mr.K.]

Do you think fixing cav headshot damage would help? Make the hurtbox the proper size, make the armour something like 1/2, and apply the current headshot multiplier from infantry to the horse. The improved accuracy would help throwers land highly damaging headshots.

Imo headshots are too random in this game to make them any more powerful than they are atm - the opposite in fact. I hate dieing to headshots as much as I lol at killing people with random headshots. Why not just punish bad never-release-w-cav with heavier speed bonus? As I've tried to say over and over, it causes no problems against infantry (the nerf was fine) and actually makes smart cav survive longer. I can't see the downside.........

[Lichen]

So it's clear throwing is really weak now. In dtv bots now look like porcupines. I think damage should just be increased substantially and just lower the ammo a lot. I'd rather not sit there throwing 6 spears into a bot. Just make throwing effective and limit the ammo severely. It would make it more skill based anyway.

[Utrakil]

What makes me question the speedbonusnerf is the fact that the horsearmour and HP were adjusted to the damage they take while charging a ranged enemy.
Now with the decreased speedbonus this means that all horses are too well armoured.

I think this is an impact of the Speedbonusnerf you overlooked.

As a result of this Jarids as anticav projectiles are worthless now. This is very sad, because it was the main porpose for my thrower so far.

[F i n]

First of all, i'd like to thank you for your commitment to this topic and your job.

Do you think fixing cav headshot damage would help? Make the hurtbox the proper size, make the armour something like 1/2, and apply the current headshot multiplier from infantry to the horse. The improved accuracy would help throwers land highly damaging headshots.

I don't think so. A wise thrower would aim for the Rider anyway.

The main problem ist not accuracy or hitboxes.

The main problem is that damage / skill point investment / cost / weight is not balanced.