Throwing needs a serius buff <-----------------------------

[MeatBunny]

I'll still continue to be throwing. I may only get 2 kills MAX a round, but it's a lot more fun than being an over-head spammer.

We either need a buff in ammo or a buff in speed bonus. Either would be fine with me.

[Mr.K.]

Your own damage can increase a fair bit from your own speed bonus.

Used to be true, but no longer is. Speed bonus seems to be pretty much +-0 at infantry speeds at this point... Some dev with their fancy tech could test this please?

[Aksei]

i love to make enemies look like christmas tree with darts

[San]

Used to be true, but no longer is. Speed bonus seems to be pretty much +-0 at infantry speeds at this point... Some dev with their fancy tech could test this please?

Using +3 throwing spears, 7PT 6ath 142 wpf with medium armor against 47 armor (had to use a large warhorse to test), damage went from 65 raw standing still to 71 raw when running. For final damage, that's ~25 to 30. To compare throwing damages while standing still, it's like going from a 7PT throw to a 9PT throw. That's still pretty good to me.

A 7 PS speed bonus +3 steel pick swing probably does around the same damage. Bump up the damage to jarids, and you can still compare a single throw to a powerful melee swing.

5 riding max speed on a large warhorse increased my raw damage from 53 standing still to 70, also, with only 2HA. An optimized horse thrower on a faster horse should be able to deal great amounts of damage at max speed.

[MeatBunny]

Nice analysis. I require more rigor though.

Try it with smokebombs!!!!

[F i n]

Still.. The axeline is pretty lame. I need 11 bodyshots (+3 Heavythrowing axes, 5 pt, 133 wpf) to kill a Transitional dude.

Used to be 5-6


That's like as if an archer would need 60 arrows to kill a plated guy.

[Joseph Porta]

If I read it correctly you are all viewing it from a point that has +3 throwing weapons, I dont think this is fair. Should a class be balanced with only maxed gear in mind? Throwing w/o +3 is the biggest donkey shit you can think off, no matter what statistics say..

[Joseph Porta]

Also id like to add that throwing it on the "you cant compare it with archery or crossbowing" isnt really cool. These are meant for long range whilst throwing is for shorter range. I would like to see throwing speed like this awesome graph shows:



^ projectile speed
     |       -      -      -
     |-                             -
     |                                   -
     |
     |                                       -
     |
     |_____________________________________
   0                                                           Distance travelled>

I think the throwing weapon should  get inneffective after like 20 meters travelled, it is indeed not compareable with crossbowing and archery, but then we could argue that the arcade archery we currently have isnt very accurate either..

Also throwing should have a sweet spot so that your hits do more efficiently damage after your weapon travelled like 8 meters(whatever).This way it wont be the silly  shotgunning you saw before, which is just.. Meh

Just imagine only getting hit by the back of a something-pretty-fast-going hatchet, I mean that wrecks your entire ribcase, but there werent alot of them on the battlefield, as a dude cant just take 9 hatchets with him to battle. I'd say we should make throwing more realistic, agonizingly low ammo count and a shitload more damage. :p

[F i n]

Also id like to add that throwing it on the "you cant compare it with archery or crossbowing" isnt really cool. These are meant for long range whilst throwing is for shorter range. I would like to see throwing speed like this awesome graph shows:



^ projectile speed
     |       -      -      -
     |-                             -
     |                                   -
     |
     |                                       -
     |
     |_____________________________________
   0                                                           Distance travelled>

I think the throwing weapon should  get inneffective after like 20 meters travelled, it is indeed not compareable with crossbowing and archery, but then we could argue that the arcade archery we currently have isnt very accurate either..

Also throwing should have a sweet spot so that your hits do more efficiently damage after your weapon travelled like 8 meters(whatever).This way it wont be the silly  shotgunning you saw before, which is just.. Meh

Just imagine only getting hit by the back of a something-pretty-fast-going hatchet, I mean that wrecks your entire ribcase, but there werent alot of them on the battlefield, as a dude cant just take 9 hatchets with him to battle. I'd say we should make throwing more realistic, agonizingly low ammo count and a shitload more damage. :p

I like that. Except the last part... if u play the realism car, you should also give archers way more damage and make it impossible to have a quiver holding 70 arrows...

[Mr.K.]

Using +3 throwing spears, 7PT 6ath 142 wpf with medium armor against 47 armor (had to use a large warhorse to test), damage went from 65 raw standing still to 71 raw when running. For final damage, that's ~25 to 30. To compare throwing damages while standing still, it's like going from a 7PT throw to a 9PT throw. That's still pretty good to me.

A 7 PS speed bonus +3 steel pick swing probably does around the same damage. Bump up the damage to jarids, and you can still compare a single throw to a powerful melee swing.

5 riding max speed on a large warhorse increased my raw damage from 53 standing still to 70, also, with only 2HA. An optimized horse thrower on a faster horse should be able to deal great amounts of damage at max speed.

It's actually almost exactly 10% then, which means one PT, not two. Jarids being faster in the air will receive even smaller speed bonus. It's not nearly high enough imo. In melee the speed bonus seems a lot higher than 10%, could you test this as well?

As your large warhorse test shows, even at full speed a 7PT thrower won't be able to kill the horse with two or even three hits - while the horse rider will onehit the thrower. This moves anti-cav throwing from risky to stupid leaving hardly any effective role for the throwers. I see no point in limiting the speed bonus so low. If horse throwers were a problem (I did better as inf thrower than HT myself though), then fix that. Do not break a perfectly viable class. Horse throwing could be nerfed by just adding a huge malus when throwing on horseback. And it would kinda make sense as well because you can hardly use your body to throw a spear on a horse, leading to a much much weaker projectile.

[oreshy]

...5 riding max speed on a large warhorse increased my raw damage from 53 standing still to 70, also, with only 2HA. An optimized horse thrower on a faster horse should be able to deal great amounts of damage at max speed.

...dedicat. ht , champ courser , 15/24, 7 rid, 4 ha, 5 pt, 7wm, all wpf thr., mw jarids. for 9 gens. - i need at full speed (both riders) & nearly the same gameplay as before usually 2-3 jarid-hits more if i'm on direct course to face-off an' enemy cav like a joust.  ...half till 3/4 of all 12 jarids for a plated cav & often 4-5 jarids for a single ha while hunting him behind ..hits on legs, chest & so on. even headthrows with full speed (yes ..with practice & good feeling of timing & jarid's trajectory very doable while having a "mounted" reticle) still sometimes 2 jarids necessary (helmet). in sums up : bad hit/ammo/kill/support/role/luck ratio.

..this isn't "realistic" neither a "game" & that's really not that great amount of damage (and within this .. an unique & funny playstyle to counter fast ha & cavs in general to support your inf on field) ...i had on earlier times. it's a waste of time or a good laugh for trolls nowadays - the oldschool ht isn't anymore (mw stones, daggers & so on examples) & the golden age of serious ht (axes & above) anyway now.

...there were always only 2 handful' passionate ht's out there , maybe only 5% (if not fewer) of the crpg-players. after my gens of ht'ing & some disimprovements , i'm not surprised about that.

..i know , it's not easy for the devs - it's a neverending spiral - pop qq 'bout that & this until the next nerf/buff & vice versa on and on.

..so , lets grab a torch alltogether & enlighten the battlefield with a peasant harmony of love & humility.




 

[Clockworkkiller]

I'm 21/18 with unloomed throwing lances. Kicking ass and having a blast.

[San]

Speed bonus for melee and ranged works differently to compare them directly, and it's multiplied against raw damage. I was trying to say that a kill taking 4 shots could be reduced to 3 (20 v 25 per hit) through simple movement without even aiming for headshots. Considering your average 1h swing is 13-22 damage, I think dealing a good 30ish damage is pretty good.

If throws deal great damage on body shots against heavy cav / plated chargers, you'd just as easily 2shot most infantry or worse (which is how it was before). If you're seeing ower damage right now, that means low speed bonus (common if you're throwing at someone away from you) or limb hits are negatively affecting it and you need to aim for shots with higher reward. Before, a single HT could kill a good 4+ cav per round.

Currently, I would call HT difficult yet rewarding, since you only need a few kills to be successful on battle, but there are many little parts of the gameplay style that you can aim to perfect. You benefit more by damaging/killing high priority targets, so a good eye for targets would help accumulate a good amount of points.

I do think it's a little weak currently (not compared to other horse ranged, though) since it takes a lot to make use of its potential, but I haven't really heard any good suggestions. Better weak points against horses is all I can think of right now. There's a problem with headshots against horses, though. Headshots seem to only work against a horse's nose (wth?). If it hits any other part of the head, it's the same as a body hit. No clue why it's like that currently, but I believe that's going to be fixed and it should greatly help. The speed bonus when joust throwing also seems a little low at times for what seemed to be a perfect shot sometimes, but I don't have anything to back up that statement.

Increased accuracy helps achieve headshots if you manage to get closer, since it's easier to land a shot at your preferred location. You should still be dealing consistent 25+ damage against infantry and 35-40+ against medium horses, as I observed using the in-game reporter on a 15-24 HT with +0 jarids.

[Teeth]

Whatever you do, please don't overly buff damage or missile speed. Getting oneshot by ranged is simply one of the most shitty experiences in this game. High alpha damage ranged is not fun to deal with. Mendro is still my most feared ranged player and throwing lances always cause me to just run away. Can't be arsed to deal with that shit and lose all my hp by luck of the draw. Similarly, high missile speed ranged just reduces the skill gap between good ranged and bad ranged, and completely removes the possibility of any dodging. The nearly 50 missile speed low tier bows for example are were an absolutely terrible idea and it is just lame to face them, when they target you, you die without being able to do anything about it.

Ammo count and accuracy, those are the things that can be considered for a buff. Fuck high missile speed and high damage per shot.

[F i n]

More Ammo just makes it worse IMO. Throwing Cut Weapons is slow, inaccurate and not effective. If you'd even add 100 ammo / slot - it wouldn't change a thing. Since u can max. throw 2 of them (even hitting (even headshots) ) while the enemy just keeps on running towards you and chops your head off. I'd rather change the ammount of ammo on the spearline to (-1), same for the axe line and buff cut throwing's damage while leaving the speardamage on the current numbers. And compensate that overall "ammo nerf" by bringing the speed bonus back. 

I mean why do you punish a single class because other ppl don't know how to face it? Does it really make a Piker OP just because the enemy cav thinks charging with a 1h weapon at fullspeed is a good idea?



On a side note:

Comparison Heavy throwing axes / thrown / melee:  (5pt/5ps)

I need 11 Axes if i throw them to kill a heavy armor enemy.

I need 5 swings (WITH THE SAME DAMN AXES) to kill him in melee.



Am i the only one thinking this is disproportionate? It's god damn THROWING weapons we're talking about... So what's the use of them if the 1h mode's stronger?

At least be honest then and change them to "1h" with the 2nd mode of throwing. Having a throwing weapon that's weaker when you throw it than in melee just does not make sense.



PS:
I HEREBY DEMAND TO NERF ALL ARCHERS' DAMAGE BY -100 BECAUSE THEY'RE ABLE TO KILL ME WITH ONLY 2 ARROWS WHEN I'M RUNNING TOWARDS THEM NAKED.... thats what it is.