Throwing needs a serius buff <-----------------------------

[Kafein]

I think the strongest nerf to throwing was to nerf the stun. For archers it only makes a differences in scenarios in which balance dictates the archer should already lose (that is, scenarios in which the guy you shoot is so close you should get your sidearm instead). Throwers on the other hand, don't have much else to rely on in order to not die, and can't really camp vantage points like other ranged classes do because they lack range.

[Mendro]

Ammo count and accuracy, those are the things that can be considered for a buff. Fuck high missile speed and high damage per shot.

More ammo and accuracy mean being archer no?

Before the patch I never had the feeling to be OP. I was like a headhunter, so yes I can understand how he can be boring sometimes for you.
But now it's really bs, I see some people surviving to a headshoot with jarid. I'm speaking about 10 PT.
The point of my build is to do high damage but having low running speed (so no heavy armor). That's the deal. But now I do shitty damage so I feel useless.

As I said don't forget throwing is far far away from perfect accuracy (and we all agree with this). In a battle you just see when I hit you, not all miss before.

[Teeth]

Since u can max. throw 2 of them (even hitting (even headshots) ) while the enemy just keeps on running towards you and chops your head off.

Serves you right for being an isolated ranged player. More ammo, but lower per shot damage rewards the throwers that stay alive by rolling with teammates, being aware of their positioning in battle, and switching to melee when necessary. Your playstyle of being an solo missile platform at the edge of the map, two or three shotting anything that comes at you is in my opinion not at all a playstyle that needs to be encouraged whatsoever. Your argument is like me arguing that pike should have a crushthrough attack and 3 times the damage, because otherwise I can't kill anyone before they run towards me and chop my head off. What the hell are you doing on your own anyway? Farming kills and horse kills and then showing up back at the main fight when everybody else is dead, I don't mind if that becomes less viable.

Reward the throwers that are in the thick of the fighting, using their ranged ability to pick off key targets and turning the tide of the battle. Mendro for example, shining example of playing thrower in a way that is well integrated with the rest of the battle. More ammo and more accuracy does not turn throwing into being an archer, I am talking about a little more accuracy and some more ammo compared to a little more damage and higher missile speed. Which just gives throwing a different niche.

[Mendro]

More ammo and more accuracy does not turn throwing into being an archer, I am talking about a little more accuracy and some more ammo compared to a little more damage and higher missile speed. Which just gives throwing a different niche.

Was already an option with war darts
Differents throwing weapons means differents playstyles

For example :
Taking HTA mean close range cause of low missile speed.
Taking jarids mean more range but less accuracy when the target is close to you
Taking War darts is perfect for hunting Horse ranged or ranged

[Aksei]

After some time i think thrower can be a powerfull class, but the weapons need some balance

With 21/18, i can say 7 PT with +3 Wardarts can be deciding factor on the battlefield.
But i have to play a defined playstyle. Most Inf have heavy armor and i throw at them, not really to kill. Its more like i try to stun them in a fight, so they die by other players.
Im also very effective as anticav. Takes some darts, but also is very frustrating for the cav player, when i stand in middle of my teammates and throw stuff at him when he try to take out my teammates

Getting now most time 60 players in top 5 of my team. One time i got valour^^

edit: but i think the cutting stuff needs a buff

[F i n]

Serves you right for being an isolated ranged player. More ammo, but lower per shot damage rewards the throwers that stay alive by rolling with teammates, being aware of their positioning in battle, and switching to melee when necessary. Your playstyle of being an solo missile platform at the edge of the map, two or three shotting anything that comes at you is in my opinion not at all a playstyle that needs to be encouraged whatsoever. Your argument is like me arguing that pike should have a crushthrough attack and 3 times the damage, because otherwise I can't kill anyone before they run towards me and chop my head off. What the hell are you doing on your own anyway? Farming kills and horse kills and then showing up back at the main fight when everybody else is dead, I don't mind if that becomes less viable.

Reward the throwers that are in the thick of the fighting, using their ranged ability to pick off key targets and turning the tide of the battle. Mendro for example, shining example of playing thrower in a way that is well integrated with the rest of the battle. More ammo and more accuracy does not turn throwing into being an archer, I am talking about a little more accuracy and some more ammo compared to a little more damage and higher missile speed. Which just gives throwing a different niche.

I was always playing in teams and not running alone. My mainobjective was to distract cav, and protect my team's archers from them. And hunt other archers. I don't even wanna know how many times i saved an Archer from an incoming couch... Now that just doesn't work anymore because cav usually just ignores my axes, bumping me and killing the archer i'm trying to protect and enemy archers easily take 5 axes before dropping. While i die after 2 hits.

But i'm not even complaining - cus i'm using light armor and am aware of the risks. Other than you:

You are judging my playstyle. I don't judge other ppl for enjoying the clusterfuck and rape that you call "main fight" - and i'm far from joining it. That's not my definition of having a good time.

Also, a low armored throwers are basically a complete waste in a heavyarmored melee skirmish.

Do you also want archers to stand in the middle of the fight and shoot 1 arrow before they're killed? That's BS and you know it.

I understand and accept that you, as a melee player do have quite a different playstyle. But that doesn't mean it works for every class.

So please, if you don't even know what I'm talking about, keep your mouth shut.



And no, my argument is like as if you're wondering why your pike suddenly has a reach of 10. Cus that's just neither what it's supposed nor used to be.

[Mr.K.]

To me at some point throwing seemed OP, but it was never used on EU in large enough numbers to actually make it show. My build has been 15/24 from the beginning and my KDs were quite high considering I don't play a lot of throwing and I'm pretty bad with all ranged classes. And after I ran out of ammo I was still a perfectly viable 2H hero, although in light armor. I feel a nerf to the damage wasn't a bad idea and also rebalacing the throwing is fine, Jarids were the only reasonable thing anyone would use.

That said, I would love to hear from San or any other dev why he thinks it's not a good suggestion to just buff the speed bonus? I googled around for a bit and found that a throwing spear would in reality fly at about 150kph max and a horse gallop is around 40kph. The thrower himself could prolly run at 10kph or more while throwing the stuff. Ek=½mv^2. This means that both going at full speed there should be a 1.33^2=1.78 times damage on the throwing things. 78% is a tad more than the 10% we currently have........ And as I said before if this makes HT overpowered - and it surely would - then just nerf the damn throwing on horseback, not throwing in whole.

What higher speed bonus would mean is that the retard plate cav that thinks he can steamroll anything and everything, will be badly hurt as will be the 2H hero that decides to run straight at a thrower. This also means that when the smart cavalry or hero runs away from the thrower they get hit with significantly lower damage.

[Kampfkarotte]

I just played battle and I think i have to state this here.

My alt's build is 14/24 atm, with no Ironflesh (lvl 29). I weared green linen tunic with 7 armor.
I got shot by an axe thrower from about 3 metre distance, he used franciscas, and i took 20% damage.

Francisca +0 has 30 cut and even if that guy had not much pt (i don't know), this damage is RIDICULOUS!

[Boerenlater]

Need moar speedbonus.
It's ridiculous right now as HT, with 7PT and mw Throwing Lance I cant even down an unarmored horse like a courser when riding at full speed straight at him.

[Joseph Porta]

I like that. Except the last part... if u play the realism car, you should also give archers way more damage and make it impossible to have a quiver holding 70 arrows...

I have nothing to add to this, cause it is true. But neither do I think this stalemate between realism and balance is gonna go anywhere.

To be honest I have great restecpt for the item balancers, just on paper it is already a wonky bizniz balancing these items, the way they work out in-game is even more subject to a butt ton of variables to consider.. 

[Tzar]

More ammo would be a buff that would make throwing worthwhile again, right now the ammo count is just not working, it feels like you use way to much stat points in wpf an PT to just throw a few sticks an then play with a handicapped melee build.

Anyways, lots of good points and observation throughout the thread, keep em comming

[San]

To me at some point throwing seemed OP, but it was never used on EU in large enough numbers to actually make it show. My build has been 15/24 from the beginning and my KDs were quite high considering I don't play a lot of throwing and I'm pretty bad with all ranged classes. And after I ran out of ammo I was still a perfectly viable 2H hero, although in light armor. I feel a nerf to the damage wasn't a bad idea and also rebalacing the throwing is fine, Jarids were the only reasonable thing anyone would use.

That said, I would love to hear from San or any other dev why he thinks it's not a good suggestion to just buff the speed bonus? I googled around for a bit and found that a throwing spear would in reality fly at about 150kph max and a horse gallop is around 40kph. The thrower himself could prolly run at 10kph or more while throwing the stuff. Ek=½mv^2. This means that both going at full speed there should be a 1.33^2=1.78 times damage on the throwing things. 78% is a tad more than the 10% we currently have........ And as I said before if this makes HT overpowered - and it surely would - then just nerf the damn throwing on horseback, not throwing in whole.

What higher speed bonus would mean is that the retard plate cav that thinks he can steamroll anything and everything, will be badly hurt as will be the 2H hero that decides to run straight at a thrower. This also means that when the smart cavalry or hero runs away from the thrower they get hit with significantly lower damage.

Speed bonus was changed from nearly quadratic to linear because the extreme end of horse ranged speed bonus heavily multiplying damage. Since speed bonus works both ways, imagine how a thrower can deal massive damage to an incoming heavy horse. That same multiplier can be used by horse ranged against infantry, dealing massive damage against everyone. At medium horses and higher, you need to deal close to 150-200 raw damage to deal 100-130hp. Headshots act as normal attacks against 0 armour, so raw damage equal to the horse's hp is still required at the very least. When a decent normal attack is 60-70 raw, such high multipliers become out of hand.

The current increase is still quite large, much larger than the 10% you're stating. I saw a 40% increase in raw damage on the slower horses, which usually translates to much higher final damage than the multiplier. Since the ranged penetration change it may be worth it to look at it again, but this affects all horse ranged as well.

then just nerf the damn throwing on horseback, not throwing in whole.

If the base penalty was increased and the properties of the HA bonus could be tweaked, it may be possible to increase it. From what I know about skills, they can't be edited very easily, though. Otherwise, there's little room to separate how a weapon on horseback would operate compared to on the ground.

(click to show/hide)

More Ammo just makes it worse IMO. Throwing Cut Weapons is slow, inaccurate and not effective. If you'd even add 100 ammo / slot - it wouldn't change a thing.

With statements like this, it's difficult to filter out what you're really trying to say. Come on now.

I mean why do you punish a single class because other ppl don't know how to face it? Does it really make a Piker OP just because the enemy cav thinks charging with a 1h weapon at fullspeed is a good idea?

Single class? Throwing weapons received more ammo and accuracy. The past changes affected all ranged, not just throwing.

On a side note:
Comparison Heavy throwing axes / thrown / melee:  (5pt/5ps)
I need 11 Axes if i throw them to kill a heavy armor enemy.
I need 5 swings (WITH THE SAME DAMN AXES) to kill him in melee.

Calling BS on this. It would be very high (7+) for both since you're using cut against 70+ armour with only 5PS/PT. what is your wpf split?

Am i the only one thinking this is disproportionate? It's god damn THROWING weapons we're talking about... So what's the use of them if the 1h mode's stronger?
At least be honest then and change them to "1h" with the 2nd mode of throwing. Having a throwing weapon that's weaker when you throw it than in melee just does not make sense.

List the stats of these throwing weapons in melee and explain to me how they're stronger. Outside of throwing lances, throwing in melee mode have some of the worst stats with poor damage and speed.

Whatever you do, please don't overly buff damage or missile speed. Getting oneshot by ranged is simply one of the most shitty experiences in this game.

That's what the removed penetration accomplished. High damage attacks still consistently deal 30-40 damage and low damage was even buffed, but 1shots were reduced as long as you wear average armour. Ranged weapon damage scales similarly to melee attacks.

I think the strongest nerf to throwing was to nerf the stun. For archers it only makes a differences in scenarios in which balance dictates the archer should already lose (that is, scenarios in which the guy you shoot is so close you should get your sidearm instead). Throwers on the other hand, don't have much else to rely on in order to not die, and can't really camp vantage points like other ranged classes do because they lack range.

I agree; that's why I think some of the low tier throwing weapons need a power increase (well, the cut ones anyway). I think the accuracy buff helped a bit, and may even need to be increased further to pinpoint accuracy since these weapons lack power and hardly any chance to stagger.

[kinngrimm]

I would like to be able to play a Peltast like style with 1 throwing lance and Javalins and shield, Hybrid between Hoplite and thrower.

Needing but 21 str for the fucking throwing lance, does deny me athletics which i would need to play such a skirmisher effectivly -_-

Also i still would prefer Javalins with 4 isntead of 3 amo.

While i am ok with the accuracy increase, mostly because there is still no huge difference to before, the damage reduction is quite noticable and perhaps should be concidered to be taken partly or depending on item complettly back.

[korppis]

Throwing weapons are pretty much the only projectiles that can be dodged atm, but they deal good damage (at least the piercing damage ones). Trying to hit a single target is not too easy, and compared to lightning fast arrows and bolts it doesn't seem worth spending all those points in PT and wpf. Not to mention how expensive hobby it is. So yeah I agree throwing needs a little buff.

Not sure if it's possible to script, but I'd suggest that PT would give small projectile speed bonus for every point over the requirement. Sure PT gives enormous 14% damage bonus, but every point invested in that is away from melee skills, and they do have very limited ammo and high upkeep. I wouldn't touch the base projectile speed tho, maybe just boost the accuracy slightly.

Also the weight penalty needs to go after you run out of ammo. Is it possible to autodrop the quiver after you throw the last ammo?

[Mr.K.]

The current increase is still quite large, much larger than the 10% you're stating. I saw a 40% increase in raw damage on the slower horses,

In the numbers you posted it was 32% for the large warhorse (which isn't a slow horse, but rather average), so yeah it's more than 10%, but still not nearly enough to actually kill the darned beasts. And that exactly is my problem; I can still kill infantry and especially light infantry, but what I would like to do is hunt cav and that I can no longer do. Without throwers the only ranged class that heavy cav is afraid of is arbalesters. Buffing speed bonus would punish them for choosing the wrong target.

Horse throwing damage was indeed quite high at one point, but their lack of ability to scavenge ammo made my KDs actually drop compared to throwing on foot. Also at lower levels (30) I lacked important skills like PS and athletics, which made me quite useless in most maps on EU1.