Attempt to balance cavalry overall

[bruce]

Tbh:
- nerf HP of all horses to some uniform number - the armoured ones are protected by armour already, the double durability buff made sense with piercing accurate archery, now it doesn't, since now armour is actually protective, and the extra HP enables you to screw up too many times by driving into pikes/spears and riding off merrily
- the riding skill made all horses faster - partially it's good because it distinguishes people who've invested into riding a horse from the ones which didn't, but it also gave them all a buff which is slightly too much - shaving off a point or two of speed/agility to get them more or less back to old speeds (or only slightly above with high riding skill) would make sense

I've got a level 30 lance horseman (on a light horse) and, well, the single biggest threat are other, better lancers (since lance vs lance fights, someone either loses a horse or dies in one hit), then HAs (because they kill a normal horse in 2-3 arrows and can follow you around), throwers, then foot archers with warbow & longbow and crossbowmen. However, it is - in absence of all these things, and on appropriate maps, really really powerful.

Also the LOC needs to go away for good. It's a stupid, silly weapon.

[LordRichrich]

*sigh* We've been over this
Cavalry are only op'd when the other team don't look around.
If the looked around they'd notice cav and do something about it
As my 2h, no cav will charge into me when I have my thrust ready unless they have armoured
As a cavalry (on a sumpter I admit) I will never ride into an enemy who is looking at me
It's all about team work

[Noble Crassius]

mmm I gatta say post patch ive been noticing rounds being decided who has the most cavalry. That being said I usually play on populated servers of 30-40 but it still stands if the usual ratio of cavalry and infantry is thrown off which ever team ends up with the most cav has the greatest chance of winning. I look around but when I'm being constantly ran over by cavs from multiple directions you can't really do anything about it.

[Joker86]

That's the point!

That it's the cavalry, which decides, not the infantry or archers, says pretty mucuh anything about the actual power of this class.

Also: of course attention is important for cavalry, but when there are 20 horses swarming you and your team, it's plain impossible to repell them all during the whole round! They will first get one teammember, then another, and the more they get the easier it becomes for them! So in theory you are right, but in reality... 

[Memento_Mori]

Seriously the only problem I have with cav is the plated charger and I've only seen it twice so far whilst playing the patch..
What is everyones problem with cav ... If the enemy team has more cav players than you, then that means you probably have more infantry or more archers.. Use your advantage don't let them force you at a disadvantage, if you have a lot of infantry tell them to get pikes.

Cav are over powered because people think this game is about being an unstoppable killing machine & not about team work.

In my opinion pikes with 1 wpp counter any type of cav... 1 WPP, without even an investment you can stop a 23k horse instantly and maybe even kill it depending on where you hit.... So yeah whats over powered about cav?

Just my opinions here but what is truly over powered is the lack of team work exhibited by C-rpg players, which is fine, it's a game you play it to have fun not to win every round but it would definitely be easier to beat cav if your team didn't just mob forward as fast as possible in a long scattered formation all over the map.... Without even a spear.

Just my 2 cents, don't nerf cav, nerf non-team players.

[bruce]

It's all about team work

Your argument is fail. The reason is simple - the class which needs teamwork to be taken down and can take down other classes without teamwork is a OP class (since it IS more powerful then the classes which don't need teamwork to be taken down, and hence is overpowered compared to them). While riding around on a horse backstabbing people IS fun, it definitely is not for the people who're trying to melee and have to somehow simultaneously melee and fend cavalry off at the same time. So it is, in my view, balanced if horses die more easily to pikes/spears/etc, because getting piked/speared is a screwup you should pay dearly for.

The LOC, equally, needs to go.

If 20-30% of people are on horses, it makes infantryman's life hell, because you can only keep tabs on so many opponents. Especially when they're now even faster then before. The current explosion of cavalry is, of course, due to archery being balanced now instead of lolautocannon of doom (which was even more broken), and also objective buffs to horses (speed and maneuver from higher riding), but something should be done either through price adjustments or through a change in stats or a combination of the two most likely.

[Joker86]

If 20-30% of people are on horses, it makes infantryman's life hell, because you can only keep tabs on so many opponents. Especially when they're now even faster then before. The current explosion of cavalry is, of course, due to archery being balanced now instead of lolautocannon of doom (which was even more broken), and also objective buffs to horses (speed and maneuver from higher riding), but something should be done either through price adjustments or through a change in stats or a combination of the two most likely.

And there we are again, as I think that price balancing doesn't work properly, we have to balance the stats. That's what I did here.

Read the stats of the horses, I don't think it's gone overboard or something like this. The light horses lost a few points in health, armour, maneuver and speed, and a bit to quite a lot in charge.

Armoured horses lost a lot in hitpoints, speed, armour and charge, but their price got lowered. This way they got a little cheaper, but also less effective, which will hopefully make them appear less on the servers. And if they do, they will hopefully dominate less. 

[Riddaren]

One option could be to increase the requirements for the horses, the riding skill.
So instead of 1,2,3,4,5,6 you need 1,3,5,7,9,10.

Also, lower the speed and manuverability of all horses but make the riding skill increase them more than now.
It should be almost useless to ride a sumpter horse with 1 in riding skill...

I assume it isn't possible to implement but it would be cool if the horse sometimes didn't turn the way you wanted.
So with 10 in riding skill the horse always does what you want but with 1 there is a risk of say, 10% that it moves left instead of right. At riding skill 5 it would be 5% etc.

I don't think the HP of the horses should be decreased. Instead they should be increased.
 
Furhermore I don't think you have to sacrifice realism (unit stats) to balance a game. Instead you can balance it by changing prices, upkeeps, requirements etc.

Also, I think it would be more fun if the different classes needs to teamplay more and I think most of you agree.
I think it is fun and realistic that a horsemen turn around when they see spearmen and that archers run in fear when they see heavy cavalry.
That is the way it should be and it is also realistic.

Archers should not be able to counter HEAVY cavalry, without heavy losses. They should rely on the help of spearmen. If that is not possible they should either flee or die unless they can outnumber the cavalry something like 4 to 1.

Cavalry, light or heavy, should not be able to counter spearmen, without heavy losses, instead they should seek help from archers and infantry. If that is not possible they shall lose most of their horses if they choose to charge and then fight with a disadvatage on foot. Just like it is now. If the riding skill requirements are "doubled" this will be the case for sure.

etc...

Maybe it would be good to limit the weapon slots to 3 instead of 4? That way it will be less overpowered multiclasses that areable to counter anything. It wouln't be more realistic and I'm not sure if it would be more fun either... but it would require more teamplay. But I'm not so sure about this one...
Also this has already been taking care of somehow by the introduction of upkeep which limits you to use top stuff in every weapon slot simple because it would be too expensive.

To balance it even more it would be good if you could increase the upkeep even more if you carry more than one weapon type.
Someone who wears 3 different weapon types; sword, spear and crossbow could counter anything and that should cost imo. Not for realism but for balancning and making it more class based.
But I think that would be hard or even impossible to implement. I'm sure you can count the number of slots used but can you do a count of weapon types?

(You don't want to punish an archer that has one bow and 2-3 slots of arrows)

/ From someone who wants this mod to become more class based (teamplay based) as well as more realistic

[Serth]

Its funny how you want to nerf the one class that is the easiest to kill if you use your head, if you have a pike against someone on... Let's say sarranid horse, one poke is enough the kill the horse and then you poke the rider once on the ground and poof your problem is gone. If you actually pay some fuckin attention you can even kill a horseman by using a 2 handed sword...

[Welcome_To_Hell]

********
Pile of nonsense.

I'm sorry to say this, but:

(click to show/hide)

Get the hell out of here, you are incredibly out of touch with what is going on in CRPG. Please get your head out of your ass.

[Boss_Awesome]

I read the first 4 sentences of the opening post and realized that this is a bad thread.  Do we really need to nerf everything into oblivion to make up for the fact that a lot of two hander players arent very good?

[Goralion]

The horses doesn't have to be nerfed, especially nowadays as there are less armoured horses than before the patch (haven't seen any plated charger since the patch).
With my archer alt, I'm still able to nearly one shot any non-armoured horses with an arrow right in the head.

[Thomek]

Started a HA for testing purposes to check what the whine was all about. Currently lvl 15..

It's a joke. I got 0 ZERO PS and a light lance, 1 shotting higher level, and armored peeps with my couched light lance.. 

U could make a toon with 6 strength and do the same.. It's retarded and easymode. I'm also killing people with my lvl 15 HA, even other HA.

Maybe I think it's easymode only because I've been a ninja for so long.. but hell.. Cav needs a nerf somehow, and I think maneuverability would be the thing to nerf. That way a horse would work only for specific situations and charges, and not fly around on mountains fighting infantry and winning.

Also, if possible remove the horse-slot, and let horses be in the normal weapon slots. You can still fly around with a 1h, shield and a lance, HA can be HA and have 40+ arrows and a bow, or less arrows and a lance/1h etc..

that's just my opinion. I'll let you know my further experience when I reach lvl 30.

[UrLukur]

Main thing that need to be done is decreasing speed and maneuverability for all horses (to account for normal levels of ridding skill) and to cut down health of armored horses to level of destrier or slightly higher tops. Armored horses edge over destrier should be armor, not health.

[Ujin]

Started a HA for testing purposes to check what the whine was all about. Currently lvl 15..

It's a joke. I got 0 ZERO PS and a light lance, 1 shotting higher level, and armored peeps with my couched light lance.. 

U could make a toon with 6 strength and do the same.. It's retarded and easymode. I'm also killing people with my lvl 15 HA, even other HA.

Maybe I think it's easymode only because I've been a ninja for so long.. but hell.. Cav needs a nerf somehow, and I think maneuverability would be the thing to nerf. That way a horse would work only for specific situations and charges, and not fly around on mountains fighting infantry and winning.

Also, if possible remove the horse-slot, and let horses be in the normal weapon slots. You can still fly around with a 1h, shield and a lance, HA can be HA and have 40+ arrows and a bow, or less arrows and a lance/1h etc..

that's just my opinion. I'll let you know my further experience when I reach lvl 30.

Omfg Thomek. Your ninja friends can kill horsies in a matter of seconds with throwing weapons, same goes to xbowmen, even archers -). Don't even wanna mention the growing number of pikemen and spearmen on the servers. Bad cav (and most players are bad cav) gets killed no prob.