Author Topic: Attempt to balance cavalry overall  (Read 8560 times)

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Offline UrLukur

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Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2011, 10:08:48 pm »
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Omfg Thomek. Your ninja friends can kill horsies in a matter of seconds with throwing weapons, same goes to xbowmen, even archers -). Don't even wanna mention the growing number of pikemen and spearmen on the servers. Bad cav (and most players are bad cav) gets killed no prob.

There are threads about nerf for throwing, one even started by you. Pike or spear don't stand much chances when face cav 1 on 1. Lances just own those.
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Offline Welcome_To_Hell

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Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2011, 10:23:48 pm »
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Started a HA for testing purposes to check what the whine was all about. Currently lvl 15..

It's a joke. I got 0 ZERO PS and a light lance, 1 shotting higher level, and armored peeps with my couched light lance..  :rolleyes:

U could make a toon with 6 strength and do the same.. It's retarded and easymode. I'm also killing people with my lvl 15 HA, even other HA.

Maybe I think it's easymode only because I've been a ninja for so long.. but hell.. Cav needs a nerf somehow, and I think maneuverability would be the thing to nerf. That way a horse would work only for specific situations and charges, and not fly around on mountains fighting infantry and winning.

Also, if possible remove the horse-slot, and let horses be in the normal weapon slots. You can still fly around with a 1h, shield and a lance, HA can be HA and have 40+ arrows and a bow, or less arrows and a lance/1h etc..

that's just my opinion. I'll let you know my further experience when I reach lvl 30.

Bullshit.

Pike or spear don't stand much chances when face cav 1 on 1. Lances just own those.


More Bullshit.

Offline UrLukur

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Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
« Reply #47 on: January 10, 2011, 11:29:53 pm »
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More Bullshit.

O'rly? Your words are bullshit. Cavalry outreach infantry. thats why inf weapon sucks against cav.
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Offline Kay of Sauvage

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Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2011, 12:13:29 am »
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I didn't read the whole thread, but I'd just like to say that the desert horse should be cheaper or more comparable to the steppe horse. Whether the overall prices are good or not, I'm not sure, but the steppe horse is actually slightly better than the desert horse because of that extra armor. But yet the desert horse is way more expensive.

Also... pikes definitely have the reach advantage versus cav, lol. Weapons on foot seem to have the same range as weapons on horseback. The cav just can maneuver to avoid hits and throw off the infantry's attack timing while timing their own attack perfectly. On the other hand, there's a lot of things infantry can do to get their own advantages. I've seen the legs of the cav taken out with a low swing of a long sword or axe, out of the reach of the cav. And attacking the rider low on his body instead of high at the head or chest can give infantry extra range, beating a cav that has identical range.

Offline Joker86

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Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
« Reply #49 on: January 11, 2011, 12:55:15 am »
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I'm sorry to say this, but:

Get the hell out of here, you are incredibly out of touch with what is going on in CRPG. Please get your head out of your ass.

So you don't think there is too much cavalry on the maps?

Also there is no need to insult me this way, as I got some positive feedback, too! And, to be honest, I probably thought a lot more hours about balancing than you did, so rather participate in a constructive manner or just stay quiet.

Main thing that need to be done is decreasing speed and maneuverability for all horses (to account for normal levels of ridding skill) and to cut down health of armored horses to level of destrier or slightly higher tops. Armored horses edge over destrier should be armor, not health.

That's basically what I wrote in the OP.

The lowered HP for light horses were only to force them a bit more to hide behind cover. (I want cavalry to be of zero tolerance for mistakes)
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Welcome_To_Hell

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Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
« Reply #50 on: January 11, 2011, 01:28:57 am »
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Ohhh jeezzz.... Where do i begin...

Lowered HP for Light Horses?
Zero Tolerance for Mistakes?
Make cavalry obtainable by infantry and archers?
Available for everyone not only for grinders?
Nothing more than a useful helper?
Bumpkills are unfair? Did nothing more than pressed W?
Horse is dead rider still alive?



Lets see here..

Lowered HP for Light Horses?
Maybe you haven't noticed but any horse under Destrier (~90 hitpoints) dies in:

2 Francisca's
2 Light crossbow bolts
2 - 3 Arrows
1 Jarid
1 Throwing lance
1 Heavy crossbow bolt

Every other player now has ranged. x50 - 60 players you have a shitstorm flying your way every time they see you. 

Zero Tolerance for Mistakes?
Cavalry build relies on his horse as his primary weapon. There is already no tolerance for any mistake, if you get close to the enemy crowd and they see you == death. 1 Projectile hits your horse and that's it. There is no tolerance for any mistakes, please try playing cav sometime.


Make cavalry obtainable by infantry and archers?

In other words, make horses shitty useless items who everyone has but rarely uses because they get them killed.
Cavalry is supposed to be rare and expensive, everyone and their brother riding around on horses just like now is little different than native circle stab.


Available for everyone not only for grinders?

Again maybe you haven't noticed but the new money/xp system allows people to make ~10k/hour when wearing mid tier armor. There is no grind in obtaining high tier equipment/horses anymore.

Nothing more than a useful helper?
Don't you think that's a little bit bias? Might as well say: lets remove horses and replace them with donkeys and mules. (I'm sure chadz wouldn't mind)

Bumpkills are unfair? Did nothing more than pressed W?
Maybe you have not noticed, but the bump damage has been halved, there are very few heavy horses, horses barely kill anyone by trampling them.

Unfair? Nothing more than pressed W?

It is totally unfair that you did not/could not move when you saw a two ton beast was rumbling in your direction, how sad it ran u over and it hurt.

As infantry you have another two keys A and D, try to use them sometime. Also there are long sharp sticks called pikes, everyone has one now, I suggest you too give them a try.

Horse is dead rider still alive?
Obviously you are not a cav player lol. 9 out of 10 times when your horse dies there will be a mob of infantry bashing away at your scull and stabbing you in the butt with their sticks, or an archer/crossbowman/thrower throwing sending in projectiles to finish the job, or the cav that just dehorsed you pulling in a couch/stab/bumpslash to finish the job while you are tasting the dirt. 

9 out of 10 times when the rider looses his horse he also looses his life.

Offline Joker86

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Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
« Reply #51 on: January 11, 2011, 01:47:46 am »
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Ohhh jeezzz.... Where do i begin...


Lets see here..

Lowered HP for Light Horses?
Maybe you haven't noticed but any horse under Destrier (~90 hitpoints) dies in:

2 Francisca's [Too much]
2 Light crossbow bolts [Too much]
2 - 3 Arrows [Too much]
1 Jarid
1 Throwing lance
1 Heavy crossbow bolt

Every other player now has ranged. x50 - 60 players you have a shitstorm flying your way every time they see you. 

Marked.

Zero Tolerance for Mistakes?
Cavalry build relies on his horse as his primary weapon. There is already no tolerance for any mistake, if you get close to the enemy crowd and they see you == death. 1 Projectile hits your horse and that's it. There is no tolerance for any mistakes, please try playing cav sometime.

I AM cavalry myself  :rolleyes:


Make cavalry obtainable by infantry and archers?

In other words, make horses shitty useless items who everyone has but rarely uses because they get them killed.
Cavalry is supposed to be rare and expensive, everyone and their brother riding around on horses just like now is little different than native circle stab.

I don't know what's the difference to the following point:


Available for everyone not only for grinders?

Again maybe you haven't noticed but the new money/xp system allows people to make ~10k/hour when wearing mid tier armor. There is no grind in obtaining high tier equipment/horses anymore.

Thing is: I want all classes being playable all the time. (If I could decide, even tincans, but balanced!). Making horses extremely expensive doesn't make them a class any more, but something you do "from time to time". I don't want that. So they have to stay cheap. (But not cheaper than they are worth!)

Nothing more than a useful helper?
Don't you think that's a little bit bias? Might as well say: lets remove horses and replace them with donkeys and mules. (I'm sure chadz wouldn't mind)

Well, they aren't supposed to be the battering rams any more. They have to rely on the infantry to disctract the enemy, and then pick out single enemies from the duels everywhere. Already now this is the best use for cavalry, anyway!

Bumpkills are unfair? Did nothing more than pressed W?
Maybe you have not noticed, but the bump damage has been halved, there are very few heavy horses, horses barely kill anyone by trampling them.

Unfair? Nothing more than pressed W?

It is totally unfair that you did not/could not move when you saw a two ton beast was rumbling in your direction, how sad it ran u over and it hurt.

As infantry you have another two keys A and D, try to use them sometime. Also there are long sharp sticks called pikes, everyone has one now, I suggest you too give them a try.

I don't know what about you, but I don't have eyes in the back of my head, especially not when engaged with fighting someone else. Also horses are quite sneaky, and you hear them when it's already too late. It's as simple as that: what you don't touch with YOUR WEAPON, MUST NOT DIE!

Horse is dead rider still alive?
Obviously you are not a cav player lol. 9 out of 10 times when your horse dies there will be a mob of infantry bashing away at your scull and stabbing you in the butt with their sticks, or an archer/crossbowman/thrower throwing sending in projectiles to finish the job, or the cav that just dehorsed you pulling in a couch/stab/bumpslash to finish the job while you are tasting the dirt. 

9 out of 10 times when the rider looses his horse he also looses his life.

What about horses being shot dead? You always die of it?

Also very often I manage to get up again, in about 50% of cases, I would say.


Obviously you are not a cav player lol.

I am. You fail.  :lol:
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Goralion

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Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
« Reply #52 on: January 11, 2011, 11:24:22 am »
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"Lowered HP for Light Horses?
    Maybe you haven't noticed but any horse under Destrier (~90 hitpoints) dies in:

    2 Francisca's [Too much]
    2 Light crossbow bolts [Too much]
    2 - 3 Arrows [Too much]
    1 Jarid
    1 Throwing lance
    1 Heavy crossbow bolt

    Every other player now has ranged. x50 - 60 players you have a shitstorm flying your way every time they see you. 


Marked."

How can you say that light horses should be OS by all ranged weapons ? You KNOW it would be unplayable. This is a non-sense. Every time a cav strikes the ennemy team, he gets out with at least 1 arrow in his horse, if he does not die.


"Zero Tolerance for Mistakes?
    Cavalry build relies on his horse as his primary weapon. There is already no tolerance for any mistake, if you get close to the enemy crowd and they see you == death. 1 Projectile hits your horse and that's it. There is no tolerance for any mistakes, please try playing cav sometime.


I AM cavalry myself  :rolleyes:"

The fact that you play cav is no more a point in your favour. You play cav only to legitimate your nerfing suggestions ; I don't think you enjoy playng cav. You are way too subjective when talking about horses.


"Well, they aren't supposed to be the battering rams any more. They have to rely on the infantry to disctract the enemy, and then pick out single enemies from the duels everywhere. Already now this is the best use for cavalry, anyway!"

I suppose you are talking about light cav. Heavy cav's job is to open ennemy lines for their infantry to rush in. So yes, they are supposed to be battering rams.


Sorry for the crapy quotes, I need to get used to the new quote system...

But well, my point is that cav is already fine as it is. It has been nerfed enough.
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Offline Joker86

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Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
« Reply #53 on: January 11, 2011, 01:06:00 pm »
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Well, many people told me that cav was fine as it currently was, but then chadz nerfed them by increasing their price massively. This was a nerf into the wrong direction, I think, but basically we agreed that cav needed a nerf.


I see that too many players are still stuck to the imagination of cavalry how it was pre patch: riding constantly around or even between the lines of the enemy stabbing left and right, killing everyone who seperates a bit and doesn't look into the right direction.

Riding must become more of hunting, which requires patience and correct timing. Otherwise it will always stay more effective than other classes (= OP)
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline UrLukur

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Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
« Reply #54 on: January 11, 2011, 04:19:59 pm »
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Lowered HP for Light Horses?
Maybe you haven't noticed but any horse under Destrier (~90 hitpoints) dies in:

2 Francisca's
2 Light crossbow bolts
2 - 3 Arrows
1 Jarid
1 Throwing lance
1 Heavy crossbow bolt

I feel all damage need some kind of nerf, but on the other hand hits need to count. One of the easiest solution would be changing soak and something values in module.ini or whatever it was called. Damage is now one plain number and one type. Then, the value is reduced by some plain number, then reduced value is reduced by some percentage. I feel that the first kind of reduction need to be decreased across the board and the second number need to be increased across the board. This will lead to less bouncing off and less one hit kills. Also this will make horses more less vulnerable to shooting in general.

Second thing that need to be adjusted is some kind of nerf for both throwing and xbows, after last patch i feel archery need to be again nerfed a bit.

Also, as rider of the light horse can one hit kill people, why he feel that he should be allowed to make mistakes ? It screams double standards. I feel that lances need general reduction of damage across the board.

Every other player now has ranged. x50 - 60 players you have a shitstorm flying your way every time they see you. 

As ranged is the only reliable counter to cavalry, why shouldn't they go ranged ? On a serious note, ranged is too good in the mod, and in the game. All ranged should be 2 stage, like xbow, and speed of ranged need to be toned down (at least it's true for xbows and archers now).

Zero Tolerance for Mistakes?
Cavalry build relies on his horse as his primary weapon. There is already no tolerance for any mistake, if you get close to the enemy crowd and they see you == death. 1 Projectile hits your horse and that's it. There is no tolerance for any mistakes, please try playing cav sometime.

No it don't. Cavalry guys do just fine without their horses. If cav is stupid enough to go alone into enemy line, its HIS FAULT. If infantry do the same, it's also DEAD, same for archers. Why do you want cav to be special ?

I've seen horses take way more than 1 projectile, even 2 ridding horses. In some cases it's 1 in some it's 5.


Make cavalry obtainable by infantry and archers?

In other words, make horses shitty useless items who everyone has but rarely uses because they get them killed.
Cavalry is supposed to be rare and expensive, everyone and their brother riding around on horses just like now is little different than native circle stab.

Cavalry need to be rare, and should require skill to use. Weak cavalry should be dead cavalry.


Available for everyone not only for grinders?

Again maybe you haven't noticed but the new money/xp system allows people to make ~10k/hour when wearing mid tier armor. There is no grind in obtaining high tier equipment/horses anymore.

Not anymore?
Nothing more than a useful helper?
Don't you think that's a little bit bias? Might as well say: lets remove horses and replace them with donkeys and mules. (I'm sure chadz wouldn't mind)

Cavalry atm is downright broken, the nerf will not change it.

Bumpkills are unfair? Did nothing more than pressed W?
Maybe you have not noticed, but the bump damage has been halved, there are very few heavy horses, horses barely kill anyone by trampling them.

Unfair? Nothing more than pressed W?

It is totally unfair that you did not/could not move when you saw a two ton beast was rumbling in your direction, how sad it ran u over and it hurt.

As infantry you have another two keys A and D, try to use them sometime. Also there are long sharp sticks called pikes, everyone has one now, I suggest you too give them a try.

Have you tried dodging horse with some maneuverability. It's not easy. Cav can bump then stab or slash to get easy kills.

It's good that just bump kills are rare now.

Pointy stick sucks against good cav, 1 vs 1, in clusterfuck they sucks too.
Horse is dead rider still alive?
Obviously you are not a cav player lol. 9 out of 10 times when your horse dies there will be a mob of infantry bashing away at your scull and stabbing you in the butt with their sticks, or an archer/crossbowman/thrower throwing sending in projectiles to finish the job, or the cav that just dehorsed you pulling in a couch/stab/bumpslash to finish the job while you are tasting the dirt. 

9 out of 10 times when the rider looses his horse he also looses his life.

It's because the cav in question sucks. And organisation of his team sucks. Besides 9/10 is total bull.
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Offline Welcome_To_Hell

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Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
« Reply #55 on: January 11, 2011, 04:23:18 pm »
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Riding must become more of hunting, which requires patience and correct timing. Otherwise it will always stay more effective than other classes (= OP)

...

I cannot explain a fish that it is wet. I cannot explain close-minded infantry why cavalry is not OP.

I AM cavalry myself  :rolleyes:

The fact that you play cav is no more a point in your favour. You play cav only to legitimate your nerfing suggestions ; I don't think you enjoy playng cav. You are way too subjective when talking about horses.

That is exactly what I thought. Way too steep and bias.








Offline PhantomZero

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Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
« Reply #56 on: January 11, 2011, 05:23:21 pm »
-1
I see that too many players are still stuck to the imagination of cavalry how it was pre patch: riding constantly around or even between the lines of the enemy stabbing left and right, killing everyone who seperates a bit and doesn't look into the right direction.

This is literally what the purpose of cavalry has been since before Jesus was born. Great thread Joker86, it sure gave me a laugh!  :lol:

What is the purpose of cavalry? To run down undisciplined peasants and provide a shock strike with a charge. Is it not enough already that 1/5th of maps make cavalry useless as it is?

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Offline Atom_Soldat

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Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
« Reply #57 on: January 11, 2011, 06:14:12 pm »
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I don't see any problem at all with these new changes.
Personally i enjoy playing cavalry even more than before,
with the increased risk and all. I find them adequate and
see them as great contributions to the overall gameplay.

irony-mode off

Offline Stabby_Dave

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Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
« Reply #58 on: January 12, 2011, 12:55:20 am »
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Well, many people told me that cav was fine as it currently was, but then chadz nerfed them by increasing their price massively. This was a nerf into the wrong direction, I think, but basically we agreed that cav needed a nerf.


I see that too many players are still stuck to the imagination of cavalry how it was pre patch: riding constantly around or even between the lines of the enemy stabbing left and right, killing everyone who seperates a bit and doesn't look into the right direction.

Riding must become more of hunting, which requires patience and correct timing. Otherwise it will always stay more effective than other classes (= OP)


TBH, if cav has to be nerfed, i'd prefer yours over the price increase we just experienced. With your nerfs, the class is still valid but less effective. With price increase, they are just as effective but only usable maybe 50% of the time.

Offline AlexandertheGreat

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Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
« Reply #59 on: January 12, 2011, 06:19:40 am »
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Try wasting riding and horse archery skill points, there's 8 skills right there, now add in the 1000+ gold cost to repair most good horses. Q_Q more.