Attempt to balance cavalry overall

[Joker86]

This thread is about heavily nerfing horses. Why that? Easy:

Horses are OP. There is no doubt in that.

A rider has got an additional item in his inventory. It’s not just something like gloves or a helmet, it’s a whole horse.

This horse grants several (and severe) advantages:

- high speed grants higher flexibility
- high speed grants higher protection (there is almost not time to attack you)
- high speed grants higher speed bonus while attacking
- horses can knock down people for what you need a blunt weapon with high damage otherwise. And the knockdown is unblockable, unlike blunt weapons
- horses deal bump damage, which wounds and even kills people.
- horses protect the rider from getting trampled himself.

Especially the bumpkills are unfair, as they happen only because the player pressed [W], which is highly undeserved. I follow the universal equation effort = result. This is why I hate blockcrushing weapons that much, too. There is no effort in using overhead spam or pressing [W] constantly.

The rider has to pay this with only a few skill points spent in riding skill. That’s all. He doesn’t have any greater disadvantages from this. At least no disadvantage or weakness which footmen DO NOT have. Of course, his horse can be killed by a lot of things, but so can any other player on foot.

Pikes are only effective if the horse approaches them, there are always plenty targets without pikes. Also they don’t kill horses immediately, they only stop them. So they are no real counter, they are only a (rather limited) protection.

The only other disadvantage is the upkeep cavalry has to pay, but currently this doesn’t work as intended.

I have to explain something really important: from M&B singleplayer, many movies and other stuff we are used to the fact, that cavalry was dominating medieval battlefields. While this is historically accurate, it’s absolutely devastating for balance. A cavalryman, even a knight, has to be as strong as an infantryman or an archer in multiplayer. Otherwise there is no point in playing any other class.

So the first thing to accept is: cavalry in cRPG MP has to be a JOKE against cavalry from SP.

As horses grant a lot of advantages, my only solution to this problem is to BOTH nerf horse stats severly, AND to increase some secondary negative effects using a horse. Those secondary effects could be anything, but lowered skills and cheaper other equipment are the easiest solutions.

A small secondary disadvantage is the increased chance of accidentally wound or even kill teammates by bumping them. But this is only a small disadvantage.

Of course we could also implement other stuff, like higher upkeep percentage/chance for horses, braceable spears and whatnot, but this needs some advanced modding, while changing horse stats basically is just editing some text files. (I think ^^).

The Suggestion:

So my approach to balancing is: nerf their stats, and make the player pay the horses with skills and equipment. On the other hand cavalry should become available for any player, not only those who play (and grind) a lot. I try to make cavalry as attractive and obtainable as infantry or archers. Which would be balanced.

1. One first step already was done by the patch: riding skill got 1/3rd of AGI, which is good, as you can “lose” more skill points for riding. With the former 1/6th you had still some skill points left for athletics, converting or whatever. So this is the point one.

2. Equipment. This is more or less already done by the upkeep system, although currently especially the cheaper horses still pay a lot. So we can either make the cheaper horses more expensive, or we can reduce their effectivity accordingly to the price. I decided for latter, as I wanted to make cavalry available for everyone, not only for grinders. This would also make higher tier horses totally unusable, if we followed the graduation of prices. So this point goes hand in hand with…

3. Stats: we need to lower the stats that much that a horse is nothing more than a “useful helper”, not the central point of the build. This is where I stop writing more walls of text, and actually start with my suggestion:




I will just go according to the price to try to balance them, and my suggested values are completely made by feeling.

Sumpter Horse....................Sumpter Horse
3530....................................3530
hit points 90........................hit points 65
body armor 10.....................body armor 5
requirement 2......................requirement 3
horse speed 37...................horse speed 36
horse maneuver 39.............horse maneuver 38
horse charge 9....................horse charge 1
 

Rouncey..............................Rouncey
6550...................................6550
hit points 95.......................hit points 65
body armor 16....................body armor 8
requirement 3.....................requirement 4
horse speed 45..................horse speed 40
horse maneuver 44............horse maneuver 40
horse charge 20.................horse charge 2
 
Palfrey................................Palfrey
7550...................................7550
hit points 85.......................hit points 55
body armor 12....................body armor 6
requirement 3.....................requirement 4
horse speed 46..................horse speed 42
horse maneuver 45............horse maneuver 42
horse charge 18.................horse charge 1

Steppe Horse.....................Steppe Horse
8145...................................8145
hit points 85.......................hit points 55
body armor 14....................body armor 7
requirement 3.....................requirement 4
horse speed 40..................horse speed 38
horse maneuver 51............horse maneuver 46
horse charge 14.................horse charge 1
 
Desert Horse......................Desert Horse
13440.................................13440
hit points 85.......................hit points 55
body armor 10....................body armor 5
requirement 3.....................requirement 4
horse speed 42..................horse speed 40
horse maneuver 50............horse maneuver 45
horse charge 16.................horse charge 1
 
Courser..............................Courser
17380................................17380
hit points 100....................hit points 70
body armor 18...................body armor 9
requirement 4....................requirement 5
horse speed 50.................horse speed 45
horse maneuver 44...........horse maneuver 40
horse charge 24................horse charge 2
 
Sarranid Horse..................Sarranid Horse
20480...............................20480
hit points 90......................hit points 65
body armor 10...................body armor 5
requirement 4....................requirement 5
horse speed 43.................horse speed 39
horse maneuver 54...........horse maneuver 49
horse charge 20................horse charge 2
 
Destrier.............................Destrier
23920...............................23920
hit points 120....................hit points 80
body armor 27...................body armor 14
requirement 4....................requirement 5
horse speed 43.................horse speed 39
horse maneuver 44...........horse maneuver 40
horse charge 32................horse charge 3

War Horse.........................War Horse
37160................................29160
hit points 120....................hit points 80
body armor 40...................body armor 25
requirement 5....................requirement 6
horse speed 40.................horse speed 35
horse maneuver 41...........horse maneuver 36
horse charge 36................horse charge 5
 
Large Warhorse................Large Warhorse
39160...............................30160
hit points 120...................hit points 80
body armor 43..................body armor 26
requirement 5...................requirement 6
horse speed 39.................horse speed 34
horse maneuver 41...........horse maneuver 36
horse charge 36................horse charge 5

Cataphract Horse..............Cataphract Horse
44666................................35160
hit points 120....................hit points 80
body armor 50...................body armor 30
requirement 5....................requirement 6
horse speed 40.................horse speed 35
horse maneuver 42...........horse maneuver 37
horse charge 38................horse charge 5

Charger.............................Charger
56460................................39460
hit points 130....................hit points 85
body armor 58...................body armor 34
requirement 5....................requirement 6
horse speed 39..................horse speed 34
horse maneuver 40............horse maneuver 35
horse charge 40.................horse charge 5

Mamluk Horse....................Mamluk Horse
60000................................45000
hit points 140....................hit points 90
body armor 62...................body armor 36
requirement 6....................requirement 7
horse speed 39..................horse speed 34
horse maneuver 40............horse maneuver 35
horse charge 42.................horse charge 6

Plated Charger...................Plated Charger
65536.................................49000
hit points 150.....................hit points 100
body armor 70....................body armor 40
requirement 6.....................requirement 7
horse speed 37...................horse speed 32
horse maneuver 38.............horse maneuver 33
horse charge 46..................horse charge 10

[UrLukur]

I think it is fair to nerf their speed and maneuverability, as those are increased by ridding skill.

I am for horse nerf.

Second thing, i feel that both athletics and ridding (and shield) should be based on both AGI and STR, so balanced builds should be the build with fastest movement and good shield protection, strength build should hit the hardest and soak most, agility build should hit the fastest and allow horse archery/hybrid builds.

[Everkistus]

This is ridiculous, especially on the lighter horse. I use an unarmored horse because I don't want to be another of those tanks in the battlefield, and to be honest, this would force everyone to use top-tier horses because light horses would be so easy to kill.

Generally right now pikemen oneshot my horse. Twohanders oneshot my horse. Xbowmen twoshot my horse. Pure throwers oneshot my horse. And if I'm on foot I'm shit because I my character is in fact totally build around riding and my horse.

tl;dr: Nothing wrong with light/medium horses.

[Belmont]

tl;dr: Nothing wrong with light/medium horses.

Agreed, light cavalry is very well balanced right now and should be encouraged over armored horses. The only that should be nerfed is bump damage (which has already been slightly nerfed) and the Lance of Compensation (remove LoC topic).

[Joker86]

That's the point of my suggestion: increase vulnerability to make up the increased offensive skills. Being oneshot by everything is perfectly fine.

Currently cavalry acts like raging bulls: ride among the enemies and slash to the right and the left. Cavalry should be forced to hide more, start an attack against one or two enemies after having chosen the safest route through the enemy force, ride the planned way and hide again somewhere to wait for the next occasion to hunt down another enemy who seperated a bit from the rest of his team.

This is the way cav should go. No battering ram any more.


Edit: get used to the fact that playing on a horseback must feel more difficult/dangerous than playing on foot!

[Belmont]

That's the point of my suggestion: increase vulnerability to make up the increased offensive skills. Being oneshot by everything is perfectly fine.

It is very easy to one shot a horse below a Destrier, especially with the rising popularity of throwing. Two handed swords and pole arms (both can stop horses) still eat unaware cavalry for breakfast.

Currently cavalry acts like raging bulls: ride among the enemies and slash to the right and the left. Cavalry should be forced to hide more, start an attack against one or two enemies after having chosen the safest route through the enemy force, ride the planned way and hide again somewhere to wait for the next occasion to hunt down another enemy who seperated a bit from the rest of his team.

Cavalry is already forced to do this with light horses, however, it is true that heavy horses can take a LOT of damage and often survive a fatal mistake. However, with the upkeep system I am not sure if heavy horses should be nerfed (except charge damage) as they already cost quite a lot of money. EDIT: Cavalry also costs a lot more skill points now, making a dismounted horseman not as effective on the ground as a pure or hybrid melee character.

Edit: get used to the fact that playing on a horseback must feel more difficult/dangerous than playing on foot!

In my opinion, it already is. Your horse can die very easily and it only takes a single archer, crossbowman or thrower to kill your horse (I am of course talking about light horses). The reason horses seem so powerful is due to the lack of awareness and that is steadily decreasing each day as more and more players use tactics and formations.

[Joker86]

Your horse can die very easily and it only takes a single archer, crossbowman or thrower to kill your horse (I am of course talking about light horses).

A dead horse doesn't mean you are dead.

I tried to balance the actual VALUE of a horse accordingly to its price. Let's take a steppe horse, with my suggested stats:

Steppe Horse
8145
hit points 55
body armor 7
requirement 4
horse speed 38
horse maneuver 46
horse charge 1
 

Let's compare it to other items:

Poleaxe
8036
weight 3.25
requirement 17
spd rtng 90
weapon length 141
swing damage 42, cut
thrust damage 31 pierce

Heavy Great Sword
9001
weight 2.75
requirement 13
spd rtng 94
weapon length 120
swing damage 39, cut
thrust damage 25 pierce

Sarranid Guard Armor
8529
weight 14.5
head armor 0
body armor 46
leg armor 6
requirement 11
 

Now which of those items has the greatest value on the battlefield? Which grants most and the most severe benefits? I would say it's still the nerfed horse! (Of course there are different situations, so you can never tell, but in most cases...)

[Belmont]

A dead horse doesn't mean you are dead.

Rarely will a horseman survive after his horse is killed near the enemy as it is likely that a pike has killed your horse (there has been a huge increase of pike men since the patch) and you will be stabbed by him/her and quickly surrounded by mob. If your horse is taken out far away from the enemy you risk ranged troops and/or cavalry picking you off.

Now which of those items has the greatest value on the battlefield? Which grants most and the most severe benefits? I would say it's still the nerfed horse! (Of course there are different situations, so you can never tell, but in most cases...)

And I would say that the weapon and/or armor has better value as I don't risk as much (upkeep) by playing infantry. A horseman has to pay for his horse, armor and specialized weapons/equipment (lance+shield). Apart from an economical aspect, by playing light cavalry you are suddenly a huge target as your horse is very easy to hit and you will also have enemy cavalry chasing you.

[longfeather]

This thread blows, I don't see running ninjas asking for a limit on Endurance eh? Perhaps only run speed for 4sec and then walk to be fair? It is like they have a whole item in their inventory because they can run so much faster than everyone. Horses take a ton to Spec and now if you actually use your horse since their costs are so damn high it is almost impossible to ride them due to repair costs. Horses are part of battle and were all the way up till the early 1930s. Get used to them

[Ujin]

Joker, you want too much.

[Maira]

I AM dead without my horse. Due to the level cap I had to spec to use my pony, without it I AM dead.

[Dreakon_The_Destroyer]

I feel a GREAT idea would be if a horse takes a chunk of damage for bump/charges.

SERIOUSLY they are charging through armored men with sharp weapons, they shud be hurt a lot by this. This would also stop the annoying ass cavs from constantly charging through.

Its one thing to run full speed with a lance at a guy. but hitting him dead on when hes got 100lb armor? shud be close to death or half health at least.

[Teeth]

Have you ever played cav post patch? I bought a destrier and i cant even keep that up continously, there are rounds that i will ahve to go back to inf cause there is no money for repairs. Im not earning any money just paying a lot to ride a horse. And horses are already rpetty vulnerable cause nowadays its hard to keep up any armored horse. I think cav is pretty balanced cause it costs a lot.

[Joker86]

I play cav myself, also after the patch 

It's really easy:

All players have a budget of about 20-25k. Within this budget, all classes have to buy appropriate equipment. An archer will buy a bow, arrows, a backup weaon and light armour. Infantry will buy different stuff. And cavalry will buy stuff, of which one is the horse.

WHAT YOU GET for your money, must be of the same value for EVERY class. This means you can't get a pretty good horse for the value of a good armour or a good weapon, a horse is far more valuable!

With other words:

[Sword + shield + heavy armour + skills] = [mace + bow&arrows + light armour + skills] = [horse + shield + lance + light armour + skills]. And this has to be valid for ALL price, actual value, effectivity, whatever. It's the basic balance between classes (of the same level, of course).

As I also said it has to be valid for price, horses can't be that expensive. But currently they are way too good for what you pay, a sumpter horse is only 3500 gold!!! So the only consequence is to nerf horses down.

If horses weren't a massive advantage, then why is the amount of light cavalry on the servers increasing every day? 

[Teeth]

Cause people like you keep yelling that they're OP and they want a piece of the cake. A sumpter horse of 3,5 k is pretty much worthless. Pikes are cheap and defeat almost every cav, horsemen really have a lot to watch out for especially now that one ranged attack can cost them their horse and therefore mostly their lives.