Author Topic: All X-Bows Should be Two Slots  (Read 15727 times)

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Offline Rumblood

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Re: All X-Bows Should be Two Slots
« Reply #135 on: June 05, 2011, 12:30:20 am »
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A 12 year old could load and shoot a crossbow. They don't take much skill OR strength to use. Crossbows should be expensive. If done right, then people will be wary of taking too much armor or too much melee weaponry with crossbows, because they won't be able to maintain the build anyway.


Reality has nothing to do with game balance.  :idea: The xbow has its place, but not as a no skill requirement ranged weapon to make melee on equal footing with other dedicated ranged weapon users. Gold cost is not an effective balancing tool for a general class of weapons, only for differentiating between lower and upper tier version of that weapon.
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Offline Gorath

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Re: All X-Bows Should be Two Slots
« Reply #136 on: June 05, 2011, 12:41:38 am »
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but not as a no skill requirement ranged weapon to make melee on equal footing with other dedicated ranged weapon users.

This actually sounds like the best defense for the existance of x-bows ever.  Gives melee something to fire back at the homos without having to become a lamer by carrying a shield.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 12:43:03 am by Gorath »
And I should be nice or polite to anyone.... why exactly?

Offline Rumblood

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Re: All X-Bows Should be Two Slots
« Reply #137 on: June 05, 2011, 12:44:12 am »
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This actually sounds like the best defense for the existance of x-bows ever.  Gives melee something to fire back at the homos

Give me back my 2 hander by reducing all bow slots to 1, and then reduce the wpf required to be effective with a bow down to say, 100 wpf instead of 140 so that I can also put wpf into that 2 hander, and then you may have something.
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Offline Gorath

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Re: All X-Bows Should be Two Slots
« Reply #138 on: June 05, 2011, 12:46:00 am »
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Give me back my 2 hander by reducing all bow slots to 1, and then reduce the wpf required to be effective with a bow down to say, 100 wpf instead of 140 so that I can also put wpf into that 2 hander, and then you may have something.

Bow = capable of kiting = capable of dedicated ranged losers
Throwing = Capable of kiting = capable of dedicated ranged losers
X-bow = incapable of kiting = always a sidearm, or a dead "dedicated" xbowman as he stands still trying to reload
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Offline EponiCo

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Re: All X-Bows Should be Two Slots
« Reply #139 on: June 05, 2011, 03:31:33 am »
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Nonsense Gorath, crossbow is just as capable of kiting as any other ranged. I've played this pure crossbowman for a while with dual/triple light (or for easymode sniper) crossbows, you just need to make enough distance to reload savely. Or stay behind teammates, really.
Not that it isn't just for trolling...

Offline Gorath

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Re: All X-Bows Should be Two Slots
« Reply #140 on: June 05, 2011, 05:22:22 am »
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Nonsense Gorath, crossbow is just as capable of kiting as any other ranged. I've played this pure crossbowman for a while with dual/triple light (or for easymode sniper) crossbows, you just need to make enough distance to reload savely. Or stay behind teammates, really.
Not that it isn't just for trolling...

That's not kiting.  :)

That's just running away until you're safe, THEN reloading, THEN re-engaging combat.  Make hunting/light/regular x-bow capable of reloading while on the move using the 1-handed animation like when you're on a horse and then they'll be capable of proper kiting like the other two.  Then those 3 x-bows can be balanced more in-line with throwing and archery in other areas.
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Offline Tydeus

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Re: All X-Bows Should be Two Slots
« Reply #141 on: June 05, 2011, 05:43:17 am »
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Put on a crossbow earlier today with some masterwork steel bolts I picked up off the market, got enough kills with it to feel like I was a dedicated crossbowman except with 1 wpf. And you can kite with a crossbow/light people do it to me all the time when I'm wearing my plate, it doesn't take long to reload either of these bows, even at 1 wpf.
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Offline Gorath

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Re: All X-Bows Should be Two Slots
« Reply #142 on: June 05, 2011, 06:24:17 am »
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And you can kite with a crossbow/light people do it to me all the time when I'm wearing my plate, it doesn't take long to reload either of these bows, even at 1 wpf.

The first part must be utter fail on your part, or you have 1 athletics with all that plate you wear.  The 2nd part is awesome fictional hyperbole.
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Offline Seawied

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Re: All X-Bows Should be Two Slots
« Reply #143 on: June 05, 2011, 08:18:20 am »
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no, its really not a hyperbole. The reload time is annoying at 1 wpf, but it isn't very long for light and regular crossbows.
So with PT >10 stones become simple too effective
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Offline Darkkarma

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Re: All X-Bows Should be Two Slots
« Reply #144 on: June 05, 2011, 09:24:54 am »
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So, how many of these 1 wpf exploiters can we say are even honestly on our radar when it's raining? Oh yeah, none. Because rain effects crossbows to a point where if you're even heavily invested in xbows they will totally suck compared to when the skies are clear. It also rains a very good amount of the time. Bows and throwing aren't effected even half as badly as crossbows, which is fine with me, as they take more of an investment than xbows. You get a simpler to use weapon in crossbows, that's for sure; but they are VERY situational, especially if you're going to be some side arm using douche bag.

Put on a crossbow earlier today with some masterwork steel bolts I picked up off the market, got enough kills with it to feel like I was a dedicated crossbowman except with 1 wpf. And you can kite with a crossbow/light people do it to me all the time when I'm wearing my plate, it doesn't take long to reload either of these bows, even at 1 wpf.

Tydeus, I like you alot, but I was in that game. Even by hybrid user standards, you were sub-par at best. You had one impressive mid range shot on a character who was standing still to type out in the open and around a 5-3 KD ratio for the majority of the time you were using said  xbow(assuming all of those kills/the majority were xbow kills), which is very possible at yours and my character levels. I've done a similar thing with 2handed swords of Karma's 30+ xbower builds. Now if you were regularly doubling deaths with kills with o wpf, then ok, you'd have a point. But it's just not possible these days, especially with the horrid weather.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 09:36:46 am by Darkkarma »
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Offline Tydeus

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Re: All X-Bows Should be Two Slots
« Reply #145 on: June 05, 2011, 01:41:14 pm »
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So, how many of these 1 wpf exploiters can we say are even honestly on our radar when it's raining? Oh yeah, none. Because rain effects crossbows to a point where if you're even heavily invested in xbows they will totally suck compared to when the skies are clear. It also rains a very good amount of the time. Bows and throwing aren't effected even half as badly as crossbows, which is fine with me, as they take more of an investment than xbows. You get a simpler to use weapon in crossbows, that's for sure; but they are VERY situational, especially if you're going to be some side arm using douche bag.

Tydeus, I like you alot, but I was in that game. Even by hybrid user standards, you were sub-par at best. You had one impressive mid range shot on a character who was standing still to type out in the open and around a 5-3 KD ratio for the majority of the time you were using said  xbow(assuming all of those kills/the majority were xbow kills), which is very possible at yours and my character levels. I've done a similar thing with 2handed swords of Karma's 30+ xbower builds. Now if you were regularly doubling deaths with kills with o wpf, then ok, you'd have a point. But it's just not possible these days, especially with the horrid weather.
Stationary targets take player skill out of the accuracy equation in which case it becomes almost entirely about the crossbow. I won't argue the K:D bit as I'm not a crossbowman. I'm satisfied with "sub-par" the first time I pick-up a crossbow in two months and only have 1 wpf. I've never thought crossbow damage was the issue, which would probably be the largest contributing factor to K:D. I honestly had at the very least, a 40% accuracy rating with the crossbow but that can't be seen without an assist counter. I was hitting people but not dealing deadly amounts of damage per shot, not like I was using a Heavy or an Arbalest either though.

I find it hard to take the "situational" argument seriously, especially when we're talking about not even having to put wpf into a crossbow to begin with. If you're only talking about rain or maybe extremely heavy fog, I can only imagine that fucks over dedicated crossbowmen far more than one that hasn't put anything into it to begin with, since they can just fall back to their melee spec.

The issue for me has never been damage per shot, it's been the ease at which one can be useful or even good with a crossbow at 1 wpf (I can only assume, had I put my miaodao down and gotten a heavy or arbalest, I'd have been a much better crossbowman). What's to stop a team of 30 people in a battle server from all having ranged, consisting of Archers, throwers and all of the melee using crossbows with 1 wpf? Strategically speaking, it's a solid strategy, especially for a pub. When you can just run from melee indefinitely and wait for a teammate or two to pick the chasing infantry off, the only thing that can stop archers/crossbowers in this situation, is cavalry. The problem with cavalry being a viable counter to this strategy is that you'll never have enough people on your team as cavalry(most people don't have 3+ riding) and if you run with fewer than that, your horses are going to be sitting ducks due to the number of ranged they have to go up against. But even then, that example assumes the best case scenario for cavalry, flat ground with little to not trees or buildings(There are very few of these types of maps in actual play, if any). Worse still, is that for the crossbowmen, they're actually dedicated melee, not crossbowmen at all. Even if you do manage to get the upper hand against "crossbowmen", you didn't against the other weapon they're carrying and also much more proficient with.

I can already hear the screams of how far fetched this is and that it's just theoretical and will never happen. The problem is that I've already seen the NA 80 man become damn close to this, several times. You can attest to this Karma, you were there with Marcus yesterday for the map where it was just about at its worst yet.


On a side note, I did notice that when there were very few people on, my accuracy was perfect. If I missed a shot, it was because I misjudged something. But as the population on the server rose however, my bolts were veering off into random directions quite often. I can only assume this is due to the same issue that fucks my feints, blocks and animations up, under the same playercount, packet loss. This paired with rain could really fuck over crossbows but I don't think this should be used to balance a class.
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Offline victis honor

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Re: All X-Bows Should be Two Slots
« Reply #146 on: June 05, 2011, 05:18:09 pm »
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Nerf crossbows or bring back throwing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
noooooooo not awesome anymore!!

Offline Tzar

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Re: All X-Bows Should be Two Slots
« Reply #147 on: June 05, 2011, 11:41:15 pm »
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Nerf crossbows or bring back throwing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

huh  :?:
I've never played a server where people split up as much or as often as on EU1.  No wonder range is having a field day.

Offline Chaos

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Re: All X-Bows Should be Two Slots
« Reply #148 on: June 06, 2011, 09:32:04 am »
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For reference: my xbow alt has a planned 165 xbow wpf and 60 2h wpf by level 30. He almost always wears light armor, with the heaviest being the byrnja and a hood (on special occasions).

As much as I love taking my beloved miaodao out to play along with my regular xbow on tiny clusterfuck maps, I must agree that the light and regular xbows must be 2 slot to prevent dedicated infantry from taking xbows with them. If you don't want to completely screw over xbowmen who like sword n board, give them a crappy 0 slot shield that can take arrows (high armor) but gets wrecked by melee (low health) and of course cannot be used on horseback, is small but heavy.

And I only skimmed the thread so I don't really know what we're arguing about, but let me remind you of the usefulness of having a quick xbow, even if you have to carry a crappy melee weapon with it. Its easier to stay with the herd when your reload doesn't take forever, and less time stopped and bending over means less time for enemy cavalry and ninjas to take advantage of your exposed and inviting ass, thirsting for a man's touch. Mmm mercy me.

Offline Dezilagel

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Re: All X-Bows Should be Two Slots
« Reply #149 on: June 06, 2011, 10:48:58 am »
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give them a crappy 0 slot shield that can take arrows (high armor) but gets wrecked by melee (low health)

This is a very good idea, for all classes. But as you said, make it heavy so you don't carry around a bunch of them, and also make it not too resilient against arrows (otherwise it's gonna be "crynerf inc.").

Also make it slow, to the point where it's totally unusable in melee (except maybe against the absolute slowest weapons, who will break it in one hit anyway).

I think this would be a good step in creating some more diversity on the battlefield, as lighter armor would be more viable (shoot the peasants! Hurr-durr).

This would also make the scythe a more viable cav-stopper, as with 2h pole animations it's "just too short", like the warspear. (hell, why can't we have a secondary mode on spears that let's us use them in 1 hand, thrust only without a shield?)





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