Author Topic: Nerf ranged  (Read 15608 times)

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Offline Templar_Steevee

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Re: Nerf ranged
« Reply #240 on: December 11, 2013, 09:58:46 pm »
0
That is strange. Bows in Warband should have a maximum range of about 200-300m on flat ground. Was he by chance mounted on a helicopter pod?
So, on one of strat battles i made HS from around 200 meters???  :shock:
Archer forever :D

Offline San

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Re: Nerf ranged
« Reply #241 on: December 11, 2013, 09:59:32 pm »
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That is strange. Bows in Warband should have a maximum range of about 200-300m on flat ground. Was he by chance mounted on a helicopter pod?

His post degraded into Americanism along the way, so he was using feet at that moment.

Offline Leshma

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Re: Nerf ranged
« Reply #242 on: December 11, 2013, 10:27:44 pm »
+1
Ninjas are the ones who sneak, you dont have to be dressed in a certain way.

If you have issues with recent changes, then be specific, dont just ask for a general ranged nerf. Because I guarantee that proper 2 slot builds haven't gotten any stronger in the past year. And knowing that, a lot of generalized anti-ranged posts just drop like bullshit

Well we're just chatting here and I like point out some flaws in arguments of certain people. But other than that, even high level archers are fine when there aren't ton of them.

If you were on EU siege server an hour ago you would understand why I'm complaining. There was ton of ranged. Can't imagine how it was on EU1 during same period.

Offline Kafein

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Re: Nerf ranged
« Reply #243 on: December 11, 2013, 10:59:55 pm »
+1
Ninjas, and people who can dodge rather than whining on forums about how they can't kill several people on their own. You'll notice groups of archers get cut down constanlty if you bother playing the class at a regular basis. But I suppose since you can't do it, you wouldn't know.

Oh I did it and more when I cared and when it was easier. I did it and I did it more than many. I actually still do it, running past enemies to get to the archer that got too close to me, but attacking three archers on a vantage point is just not worth my time and effort for such a ridiculously small chance of success. The problem is, nowadays it's easier to kill three melee guys in melee alone with an archer hybrid build than to kill three archer guys alone with a shielder build. That's my personal experience which of course depends on skill and stuff. I'm a melee guy. I might not be the greatest at dodging and avoiding enemy fire, but I can guarantee you the greatest don't obtain much better results, even though the greatest blockers do obtain much better survival times than me in melee. Finally, I'm saddened you had to resort to ad hominem in order to continue this discussion. Do you have any actual arguments?

As for killing time, do you think ranged kill faster than melee? Really? Do you know anything at all about the subject at hand?

Yes, definitely. Do you seriously think you can survive by dodging projectiles longer than you can survive by blocking a melee weapon?

Typical ranged fight : shoot, hit, shoot, miss, shoot, hit, dead.
Typical melee fight : attack, block, attack, block, attack, feint, block, attack, block, attack, hold, block, attack, block, attack, block... not a single attack actually connected yet and you get the picture.

Offline Ronin

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Re: Nerf ranged
« Reply #244 on: December 12, 2013, 02:24:45 am »
+1
Typical ranged fight : shoot, hit, shoot, miss, shoot, hit, dead.
Again, too much one dimensional. First of all, you should avoid getting caught in such a scenario at the first place as much as you could, if you're a non shielder. Secondly, there should be objects that you should be able to use as cover.Thirdly, if you can succesfully dodge for enough of a time and reach the archer; now you'll have the advantage of melee fighting. To least to say, there should be some teammates helping you: a shielder you can hide behind, a cavalry that is backstabbing him, a horse archer bumping/shooting him, an archer shooting him down.

If there's no one else to help you:
1- you're either the latest survivor your team, swarmed by some enemy ranged (4v1 or so)
2- you were ramboing
3- You were careless
4- You were plain unlucky and a bit careless
5- It's an unbalanced map (mostly an open map)
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Offline Thomek

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Re: Nerf ranged
« Reply #245 on: December 12, 2013, 02:42:12 am »
+1
Kafein is right in that since blocking is now done very very well by a majority of players, ranged and melee alike, ranged is a faster way to kill someone in a 1vs1.. Simply said, as the melee defense of everyone are so good as they are, ranged becomes relatively more effective. And that's ALSO probably one of the reasons we see this much ranged.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 02:58:35 pm by Thomek »
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Offline Kafein

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Re: Nerf ranged
« Reply #246 on: December 13, 2013, 01:30:47 pm »
0
Again, too much one dimensional. First of all, you should avoid getting caught in such a scenario at the first place as much as you could, if you're a non shielder. Secondly, there should be objects that you should be able to use as cover.Thirdly, if you can succesfully dodge for enough of a time and reach the archer; now you'll have the advantage of melee fighting. To least to say, there should be some teammates helping you: a shielder you can hide behind, a cavalry that is backstabbing him, a horse archer bumping/shooting him, an archer shooting him down.

If there's no one else to help you:
1- you're either the latest survivor your team, swarmed by some enemy ranged (4v1 or so)
2- you were ramboing
3- You were careless
4- You were plain unlucky and a bit careless
5- It's an unbalanced map (mostly an open map)

Let's say I get behind cover or just "avoid this scenario". Now what ? This is the usual "It's not my problem" solution, which is not an actual solution. If nobody is ready to take some risks to go kill the enemy ranged, then nobody will do it. Of course, that's what actually happens.

Also, if you add other people that are commited to helping me (which is not realistic, just saying), then you have to add as many enemy archers. A cav guy sure as hell won't charge multiple ranged unless they are so close to each other it's possible to surprise and bump them all. A shielder will not actually do anything to protect me even if he wants to given current shield sizes. The only valuable asset would be ranged on my side. But then I might as well be ranged myself. I wonder how many people made the same reasoning, lets look at EU_1 herpaderp

Offline Hirlok

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Re: Nerf ranged
« Reply #247 on: December 13, 2013, 01:41:41 pm »
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Kafein - you are a funny guy, but no idea what game you have been playing over the last couple months.

Come to NA1 and see happy shielders murdering archers, and strong and proud archers making a stand and die like men (or fuck up arrogant melee with a knife).


(((oh, and I have seen this on EU1 as well, been lurking there quite a bit recently and having fun despite having 300 ping )))

((((I've even seen a HORSE ARCHER on EU1 getting off his horse at end of round, grabbing a 2h and fucking up the remaining melee guy 1vs1, happened minutes ago))))
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 01:48:20 pm by Hirlok »
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Offline Kafein

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Re: Nerf ranged
« Reply #248 on: December 13, 2013, 01:45:48 pm »
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Kafein - you are a funny guy, but no idea what game you have been playing over the last couple months.

Come to NA1 and see happy shielders murdering archers, and strong and proud archers making a stand and die like men (or fuck up arrogant melee with a knife).


(((oh, and I have seen this on EU1 as well, been lurking there quite a bit recently and having fun despite having 300 ping )))

((((I've even seen a HORSE ARCHER on EU1 getting of his horse at end of round, grabbing a 2h and fucking up the remaining melee guy 1vs1, happened minutes ago))))

Well yeah, I've been playing the EU meta, where people instantly go the other way if they see archers, because that's the safest thing to do.

Ranged tends to die when their team has already lost, because no ones goes for them.

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Re: Nerf ranged
« Reply #249 on: December 13, 2013, 03:09:57 pm »
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The better infantry blob still wins the battle maps, not archers.  At least on NA.  It's been that way for years.
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Offline Zlisch_The_Butcher

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Re: Nerf ranged
« Reply #250 on: December 13, 2013, 03:53:07 pm »
+5
The better infantry blob still wins the battle maps, not archers.  At least on NA.  It's been that way for years.
This is usually the case in EU as well, however, with the current amount of ranged there playing melee isn't really fun, imo ranged and to a greater extent horseranged should always be underpowered to compensate for how onesided their gameplay is, currently even if it already is slightly underpowered (not enough imo, all ranged could use a damage nerf), there is so much ranged in EU (usually about half the server these days from my experiences) that we need bigger nerfs to compensate in order for melee fun, cause if melee feels like it doesn't get to enjoy its actual gameplay features ever without getting shot (as in, melee) they'll switch to ranged and to a lesser extent cav or just quit, the sooner some harsh nerf that could be lowered after a while is implemented, the less harsh a nerf is needed to break the endless spiraling growth of ranged. Infantry is still probably the biggest damage dealer, let's be real here, but when infantry feels like they die to ranged/cav more than to other infantry their gameplay feels horribe, cause unlike cav and ranged infantry can't engage from long distances/choose who and when to engage and then run off at extreme speeds.
1H stab is the fastest, strongest and longest 1H animation. There's no reason NOT to use it in all instances. I don't know if it's OP, but it's boring. 1H used to be fun because you had a fast (left), long (right) and the most devastating attack (stab) and had to choose the best attack for each occasion.

Offline Osiris

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Re: Nerf ranged
« Reply #251 on: December 13, 2013, 03:57:34 pm »
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This is usually the case in EU as well, however, with the current amount of ranged there playing melee isn't really fun, imo ranged and to a greater extent horseranged should always be underpowered to compensate for how onesided their gameplay is, currently even if it already is slightly underpowered (not enough imo, all ranged could use a damage nerf), there is so much ranged in EU (usually about half the server these days from my experiences) that we need bigger nerfs to compensate in order for melee fun, cause if melee feels like it doesn't get to enjoy its actual gameplay features ever without getting shot (as in, melee) they'll switch to ranged and to a lesser extent cav or just quit, the sooner some harsh nerf that could be lowered after a while is implemented, the less harsh a nerf is needed to break the endless spiraling growth of ranged. Infantry is still probably the biggest damage dealer, let's be real here, but when infantry feels like they die to ranged/cav more than to other infantry their gameplay feels horribe, cause unlike cav and ranged infantry can't engage from long distances/choose who and when to engage and then run off at extreme speeds.

tis why i haven't been playing much this week ^^ even as a shielder i spend most of the time hiding from ranged, I get more melee combat in native or so it seems. (and when i do meet melee in crpg it seems to be fucking rondelmy old friends) I might give eu2 a try sometimes tho
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Offline Kafein

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Re: Nerf ranged
« Reply #252 on: December 13, 2013, 04:00:26 pm »
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Being attacked in melee, blocking attacks and defending yourself is gameplay. Getting shot is the game metaphorically giving you the finger.

Offline Ronin

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Re: Nerf ranged
« Reply #253 on: December 14, 2013, 03:07:29 pm »
-1
I know it's going to be a long post, but I couldn't shorten it better.

Let's say I get behind cover or just "avoid this scenario". Now what ? This is the usual "It's not my problem" solution, which is not an actual solution. If nobody is ready to take some risks to go kill the enemy ranged, then nobody will do it. Of course, that's what actually happens.
Archers are better left to the end of the round, with mostly inf+cav or archer+inf combination. That's how I see it works. An archer being chased with an infantry can't do much but to kite. One of the duties of cav is to prevent archers from kiting. A friendly archer also works well although cavalry is better for this job than archers.


Also, if you add other people that are commited to helping me (which is not realistic, just saying), then you have to add as many enemy archers. A cav guy sure as hell won't charge multiple ranged unless they are so close to each other it's possible to surprise and bump them all. A shielder will not actually do anything to protect me even if he wants to given current shield sizes. The only valuable asset would be ranged on my side. But then I might as well be ranged myself. I wonder how many people made the same reasoning, lets look at EU_1 herpaderp

I strongly disagree. No one should be committed to help you only, all the team should be committed to helping each other. You protect your teammates, he helps you, another guy helping you both. That is called teamwork and the reason why I like battle over other gamemodes, is the availability of teamwork. If I want to chop some heads without much thought, I go to siege, duel, DTV. If I want to enjoy some teamwork, I go to battle. It's not even like I am forced to choose any of them. I can simply leave one, and join another whenever I want.

The thing is, as a melee player/cav you should not try to chase down enemy archers at the beginning of the round. That is just strategically wrong in many ways. Because it 1) it puts you at the greatest risk. 2)It is not worth it, eliminating opposite melee before they do serious damage is much more important. Believe it or not, melee has the potential to do more damage in a much shorter time; thus they must be focused early on. Even if I was an archer, I would be focusing on melee first, because they are the biggest threat in the short term, lest they come close to me! Archers has the tendency to do more damage when they have been given more time compared to infantry. Though as a side note, they also tend to be useless when an infantry chases them.

As I already explained, as an infantry that's why I don't want to put myself at risk by chasing archers. The main thing I do is to protect my archers and kill foolish infantry players that comes close. Protecting my archers makes them to do better in performance, and eliminating the biggest threat to my team in short term (enemy inf) is also great for helping my team. That leaves my team with archers+inf versus some archers. At this point, my team even outnumbers the enemy team most of the time. Even if not, we still win.

If I am a cavalry (I do that with a STF sometimes, also including horse archers). I try to do something similar, not putting myself as a target for archers and helping my teammates wherever I can. Of course, I focus on helping my infantry rather than trying to approach enemy archers. Again, for the risk/reward reasons. Later on, this leaves my team with inf+cav versus archers mostly (because, protecting archers are harder to do as cavalry). When my teammate infantry gets up close to the remaining archers, archers try to kite them. That's where I'm coming in. The enemy archer, being at great stress due to being chased down does not have the time to both shoot me back or my teammate. I simply bump him. It is an easy kill for the friendly inf. Even if there are some infantry protecting him, my teammate inf begins clashing swords with him. I simply walk over the enemy archer, attack/shoot him. If things are even:

2 archers and 2 inf
vs.
2 inf and 2 cav

infantry players fight with each other, 2 cavalry handles 2 archers with ease. Even if archers can shoot back, horses don't die in 2-3 shots that easily.

Without any teamwork, you can not hope to win in battle. I try to measure the odds and the elements (class distribution), and try my best to overcome this situation for my team. Some people like to flank as AGI infantry and backstab enemy melee players. Some, try something different. Every method is good as long as it works. Every element (in this case every class) has it's purpose, and none is stronger than another mostly. Believe it or not, 1 inf and 1 archer as a small squad in battle is much more effective than 2 archers. Because 2 archers can not do shit when an inf comes close, the other can. If I was an archer, I'd like to stick with an infantry.

I did not even discuss inf/thrower. That class has even more chances to adapt to different situations.

My main? It's 2hander. I had nearly 0 problems with ranged so far with such tactics. Mostly, using scene objects as a cover did give me survivability. It's not like archers do me much damage at all even if I'm hit. Horse archers are doing like 1/8 damage to chest.
If I start to fail playing that way, I simply try a different approach. If I find sucha playstyle boring, then I simply change my class and take something that suits my interests. For example, I do many mistakes. Therefore I choose wear heavy armor, it is hard to dodge with it but it protects you better when you get shot or get hit. I can choose to wear lighter armor to get more mobility and dodging potential. etc.


Edit:
Protecting archers make it even easier to fight against the remaining HA at the end of the round.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 03:14:51 pm by Ronin »
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Offline Thomek

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Re: Nerf ranged
« Reply #254 on: December 14, 2013, 06:05:38 pm »
+1
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