Nerf ranged

[Templar_Steevee]

For every single class if you will make it lvl 35 you will be op compared to lvl 30.

I agree with everyone who is for decreasing amount of arrows. 34 bodkins were enought when they were on +3 before one of patches. I'm also for reverting bows buff that change non lommed to +3 ones.

Archers are some kind OP on some maps if they take good spots, but on plenty maps if you have to stay in open, you are an easy target. Same thing is on village or town maps, where smart player can just backstab them or force to fight in melee.

My catchArabbit character is made for backstabbing and killing archers, and i'm not using shield at all. Still, most of times i'm dying in melee, not from shots.

[Grumbs]

High level melee only gets a bit more damage or versatility in their main role, high level ranged gets to hybrid into 6 PS while having good agi

Melee are expected to take 4+shield skill now and put points into IF/PS and now they have to put point into WM too. If you want to play ranged with that melee build (18/24) just drop the shield skill and a point or 2 in IF and you have OP ranged class. Only difference is a little less melee WPF

Thats only for archer, xbow doesn't need anything but WPF

[Leshma]

For every single class if you will make it lvl 35 you will be op compared to lvl 30.

Well, some builds become more useful at higher levels. Melee is awesome at level 30. At level 35 you gain more damage potential, can have more HP or more speed but pretty much things stay the same. But archery hybrid that is possible on level 35, can deal with anything. Maybe lvl 35 xbow seems more lucrative, but don't forget that archers are minigun while xbow will always stay snipers.

I've listed that because he is complaining how he's unable to fight in melee because he has to spend skill points in archery. That is true for regular level 30 build but how many players still retire their chars these days? I've seen plenty of level 35's on ladder, which means there's at least five times that amount still playing the game. And they just recently got free respec...

[Templar_Steevee]

Level 35 melee:
53 HP
18 STR
27 AGI
6 PS
9 ATH/WM
2 shield or if
198 in melee skill

that would be my lvl 35 melee char - run faster than donkey and swing with weapon like a witcher.

About wpf in archery: I have 198 and long shots still have some random factor with long bow, but with nomad and tatar i can make pinshots (i made some tests with them).
Reason I'm not using pew-pew bows is simple, i love long bow, and at least with this bow you can see some realism with shooting.

There shouldn't be possible with any ranged weapon to have a pin-point accuracy because technique of making those weapons were not based on laser technology or  Numerical Control systems.
Accuracy with hi tier (6 PD) bows is ok IMO (I can make screen shots if you want) But for lower tier bows is OP and should be capped at some level, and if you will have higher wpf than capped it will just add speed and this tiny bonus to dmg, but no more accuracy

[Grumbs]

I'd rather reward skilled shooters than just have pure randomness thrown in. If you make a good shot you should hit something (assuming the other player doesn't counter in some way). The parameters that determine whether you made a good shot or not are whats the problem imo.

Shots should hit with more delay, more projectile dip etc. You could encourage head shots more by making body/limb shots do less damage etc (which was the idea of the original head shot damage buff, but instead you still die in just a few body shots). Less ammo so you don't spam etc.

Give the player the tools to do well with the class, but make it so he has to work hard to use the tools as best as possible. Making a shot miss one time and hit another even if the parameters of the shot are identical just because you got a bad roll of the dice doesn't really make for good gameplay imo. If shots being accurate is a problem, then its a problem of the design of the shooting system. The shooting system is archaic in this genre of realism inspired games. If we had half the depth in ranged gameplay as in other parts of M&B ranged wouldn't be such a hot topic. I would love to be able to say "Good shot!"

[Templar_Steevee]

IMO highest missile speed should have longbow (atm only yumi have lower missile speed ). Max missile speed should be as +3 long bow have atm, and rest bows should have it lower (lower dmg on bow -> lower missile speed)

Also dmg added by arrows should be lower (at all kinds)

[Ronin]

IMO highest missile speed should have longbow (atm only yumi have lower missile speed ). Max missile speed should be as +3 long bow have atm, and rest bows should have it lower (lower dmg on bow -> lower missile speed)

To my knowledge, composite bows launch arrows to much longer distances than longbows but that is another discussion of course. Although I'd rather prefer the native balance of bows (long bow being a cheap but not a good bow compared to others)


The scenes play a major role in such balance discussions, but I don't see many people talking about it at all. It seems that this fact is merely forgotten in this discussion (and many others), only steeve mentioned it, if I didn't miss anyone else saying it.

For example this map has lots of cover you can use to your advantage, against ranged. As a twohander playing in this scene, I felt nearly 0 ranged pressure. I just protected my friendly archers so they can do their jobs, in the end thanks to me they survived against 1,2 melee backstabber-wannabes. Afterwards, they shot the remaining ranged opposition down. I also did my part as chopping a few heads off too. And we won.

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And this is not even a close quarters map, it's one of the open maps.

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Another map, one of the balanced ones in my opinion. This one, has more place for melee fights but it is also a good map for cavalry too. For archers and non-shield infantry, there are lots of ruins and coverage. In this map, archery was not a big problem at all. If I ever get shot, I know it's 80% my fault, 20% randomness factor or existence of a clever opposite ranged.

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Again, I know these images do not really prove much of a thing as I examined 2 maps among... like 100-150 maps (I don't know how many there are). What I'm trying to show here is, base your arguments on some real examples. I remember someone saying that approaching to a nest of ranged is certain doom for any infantry, even shielders. So, take a picture. Show it here and we'll discuss. It will be a more healthy discussion. Maybe it is the scene/map that needs fixing.

[Adamar]

I wonder how did that shieldless inf get there in the first place. As this is obviously an imaginary scenario, he might have parachuted from a flying licorn.

Also, see my remark about spending a few seconds to kill the first one more than enough for the other guys to shoot you down.

Ninjas, and people who can dodge rather than whining on forums about how they can't kill several people on their own. You'll notice groups of archers get cut down constanlty if you bother playing the class at a regular basis. But I suppose since you can't do it, you wouldn't know.

As for killing time, do you think ranged kill faster than melee? Really? Do you know anything at all about the subject at hand?

[BlindGuy]

Ninjas, and people who can dodge...

You cannot dodge the smaller bows. You can spastically run so the guys makes error, but if he doesnt fuck up, you have no way to avoid.

[Adamar]

You cannot dodge the smaller bows. You can spastically run so the guys makes error, but if he doesnt fuck up, you have no way to avoid.

But he's talking about ranged in general. I've not denied a need for reballance within the class.

[Leshma]

Ninjas, and people who can dodge rather than whining on forums about how they can't kill several people on their own. You'll notice groups of archers get cut down constanlty if you bother playing the class at a regular basis. But I suppose since you can't do it, you wouldn't know.

Ninjas suck at dodging missiles. Thomek before he picked up throwing, couldn't ambush blind amoeba... I've killed more archers on my own than everyone in Ninja clan combined. Had 45000 kills on my char before retirement, I think. More than half were archers. But these days it's quite different. It is raining most of the time, archers hold their aim, they hear from clannies on TS you're approaching them from behind, they use look back button etc.

[Adamar]

Ninjas are the ones who sneak, you dont have to be dressed in a certain way.

If you have issues with recent changes, then be specific, dont just ask for a general ranged nerf. Because I guarantee that proper 2 slot builds haven't gotten any stronger in the past year. And knowing that, a lot of generalized anti-ranged posts just drop like bullshit

[BlindGuy]

Ninjas are the ones who sneak, you dont have to be dressed in a certain way.

If you have issues with recent changes, then be specific, dont just ask for a general ranged nerf. Because I guarantee that proper 2 slot builds haven't gotten any stronger in the past year. And knowing that, a lot of generalized anti-ranged posts just drop like bullshit

Noone is too worried about Steevee, Zero, Tenne etc, those guys are making massive dmg hits at all ranges, aiming each shot, and delivering. They are using what SHOULD be the best bows, since they are slower to shoot and cost much more, and require most PD investment just to USE.

What is currently a problem is that tiny spastic bows with massive arrow speed are lazoring ppl at all ranges, an example: today I was running serpentines at the opposite end of a wood, with 8 athletics, wearing plate, and some guy Ive never even seen before was hitting me over and over, killed me in 4 arrows over 5 seconds, didnt miss one. He was about 600 metres away. Truly balanced....

[Paul]

He was about 600 metres away.

That is strange. Bows in Warband should have a maximum range of about 200-300m on flat ground. Was he by chance mounted on a helicopter pod?

[CrazyCracka420]

That's the part that made you suspicious about BlindGuy's posts?  He should get the "king of hyperbole" custom title (along with a lot of other whiners).