Author Topic: Nerf ranged  (Read 14320 times)

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Offline Templar_Steevee

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Re: Nerf ranged
« Reply #195 on: December 10, 2013, 11:16:20 am »
0
hold time depends more on what bow you are using for ex. tatar or nomad bow i can hold for about 2,5-3 sec, long bow ~1 sec (a bit below) without loosing accuracy.
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Offline Molly

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Re: Nerf ranged
« Reply #196 on: December 10, 2013, 11:37:23 am »
+1
I am playing my HA for quite some time now and I actually came to a few conclusions I wasn't expecting at all:

1) Playing HA is rather easy. My alt is lvl 27 now and I don't feel like I lack anything really. Sure, I can't carry a team but it's still easy to obtain a place in the upper part of the scoreboard. I was surprised cuz everyone always was like "HA iz hart!". My k/d is most maps better than on my main.

2) Accuracy overall is too high on bows. Be it on a horse back or on foot. When dehorsed I manage easily to make 50% of my arrows hit on mid-range with a horn bow. I don't do headshots but those are not needed. I can inflict damage on so many different targets in such a short time that just hitting things is already a huge support to my team. And I know from experience that every arrow hurts.

3) Heavy horses can soak too much damage from ranged. I play with a non-loomed warhorse and it takes easy 8 arrows in various places before it dies. That is way too much.

Especially the accuracy bugs me. By all means, dedicated high lvl archers should and have to be lethal. We all know those few around like Steve, Bagge, Blackbow and Tenne. I respect that. But being lvl 27 with a tiny horn bow and still being able to hit more or less everything I like to feels wrong. It shouldn't be that easy. I certainly feel less successful when playing a melee class on lvl 27.

Just my 2 cents...
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Offline Cup1d

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Re: Nerf ranged
« Reply #197 on: December 10, 2013, 11:50:16 am »
0
Archers can hold aim for quite a long time themselves.

I wish that your erection will be as long, as archer ability to hold aim with 163 wpf in archery.

Offline Leshma

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Re: Nerf ranged
« Reply #198 on: December 10, 2013, 01:04:37 pm »
+1
Wut? Archer aim Can't hold aim for shit until WPF = 160+

So? How many archers have less than 160 wpf in archery? Dozen of poor shielder/weeaboo archers who arrived yesterday and still need to figure out how mechanics in this mod works...

I know very well how archery works, that bellow 150 wpf you can't call yourself an archer and if you're using Longbow, entry point of feeling comfortable is around 175 wpf. Most EU archers know that, hell I can bet most of them after respec have more than 190 wpf in archery (which makes things broken).

I wish that your erection will be as long, as archer ability to hold aim with 163 wpf in archery.

Well, I'm sorry dude. It's not my fault that you went from "legendary" archer to decent archer after certain patch which balanced things a bit. Many archers are still legendary, you're one of those who need crutches to perform.

Offline Angellore

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Re: Nerf ranged
« Reply #199 on: December 10, 2013, 01:24:00 pm »
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Archery is pretty much fine as it is now. Just two things I would like to see changed:

1) Low tier bows has too high missile speed, which also affects their damage. For example, after missile speed buff, Horn Bow deals almost same damage as Rus Bow (tested and confirmed 2 days ago). In theory Rus Bow has 4 damage advantage, but while testing it looks more like 1 dmg difference, because Horn Bow got 5 missile speed more (I suspect 2 missile speed adds about 1 damage). Also, having high missile speed makes it very accurate over distance, and it's 1 slot, very fast bow. You can use it as Horse Archer too. Right now Horn Bow has just too many advantages, imo it's overbuffed with too high missile speed.

2) HA shooting speed should be decreased slightly. As much as I love my HA char, it shouldn't shoot as fast as archers on the ground. If it's impossible to decrease shooting speed on horses only, then maybe set just two bows as usable on horse and decrease their shooting speed in stats?

Offline Ronin

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Re: Nerf ranged
« Reply #200 on: December 10, 2013, 01:53:22 pm »
0
Actually 160 is pretty good enough for archery, around 6 PD (my test was with a non loomed horn bow)

I'd say, it might be fair trade to cap the archery wpf based on PD. Let's say, 6 PD should allow you to raise archery wpf to 174 max. 5 PD, 160 wpf (maybe?). The reason for this is, PD also lowers the actual wpf; so more wpf is needed to offset that penalty. But maybe that way, we can disallow archers to go with 5 PD, 180-190 wpf; and rather encourage them to spend their points into a melee class.

I must confess that I'm not an expert on archery, so the values I gave are arbitratry. Feel free to discuss it that way. I also do not want any kind of nerfs to archery in general, I just think archers should be encouraged to be a bit less competent in ranged and a bit more competent in melee. cRPG might be the mod that is famous for it's freedom in builds, but some restrictions are needed. Sometimes less diversity is better for gameplay.

Side note: Shield weights should be reduced a bit too. Although being with a shield gives better protection against ranged, it also slows you down too much to effectively deal with them. Although shielders should not be necessarily the ultimate counter to archers, they must be a bit better to them than they are now. I also agree with kinngrimm about steel shield, being the least valid choice in battle. A high tier shield should be better, especially if it requires 6 shield skill.


By the way, one must not forget the scenes (by your calling: maps) while considering balance. Some of the scenes are cities, some of them feel more like open terrain. Archers and Cavalry tends to do better in open terrain, infantry tends to do better in close combat oriented maps; mostly city maps or maps with a lot of objects to hide. People must know that they must change their tactics heavily to adapt to the scene in play.

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« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 02:00:23 pm by Ronin »
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Offline Leshma

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Re: Nerf ranged
« Reply #201 on: December 10, 2013, 02:12:54 pm »
+1
How armor weight penalty for archers work these days? Is it still capped at 10 weight combined, with multiplicators for certain parts of armor (if I'm not mistaked, 3xgloves, 2xhead, restx1)?

Offline Kafein

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Re: Nerf ranged
« Reply #202 on: December 10, 2013, 02:19:15 pm »
+1
Now, that's from AGI 2H point of view. Don't understand why kinngrimm has issues, he has a lot more ATH than me and shield. I would have no issue to deal with archers if I had his build, mainly because I never attack before I bump ranged with shield (when I'm playing shielder).

That's plenty enough time to get shot around your shield.

Also nowadays, when you approach a ranged nest, the closest to you with start fighting in melee, and it may take a couple of seconds or dozens of seconds to kill him, which is also enough for the others to shoot you down.

Offline Templar_Steevee

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Re: Nerf ranged
« Reply #203 on: December 10, 2013, 02:44:06 pm »
0
How armor weight penalty for archers work these days? Is it still capped at 10 weight combined, with multiplicators for certain parts of armor (if I'm not mistaked, 3xgloves, 2xhead, restx1)?
Hand armor is X4 and cap is at 10 :)
Archer forever :D

Offline Gurnisson

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Re: Nerf ranged
« Reply #204 on: December 10, 2013, 05:16:31 pm »
+3
2) Accuracy overall is too high on bows. Be it on a horse back or on foot. When dehorsed I manage easily to make 50% of my arrows hit on mid-range with a horn bow. I don't do headshots but those are not needed. I can inflict damage on so many different targets in such a short time that just hitting things is already a huge support to my team. And I know from experience that every arrow hurts.

Nerfing accuracy is a bad idea for balancing ranged classes. It limits skill and makes randomness a bigger factor. Other stats could be adjusted since you can adapt to it, but accuracy nerf just fucks people over even if they play well, which I find rather silly. :?

3) Heavy horses can soak too much damage from ranged. I play with a non-loomed warhorse and it takes easy 8 arrows in various places before it dies. That is way too much.

All about speed bonus. Heavy Horses suck up a lot of projectiles if they run away, then again, 1-3 hits with good speed bonus is enough to take them down. I think that's fine myself. I play mostly on destrier and padded warhorse and performance- and survivability-wise they don't differ much from another.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 05:46:34 pm by Gurnisson »
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Offline Hirlok

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Re: Nerf ranged
« Reply #205 on: December 10, 2013, 05:33:58 pm »
+2
Nerfing accuracy is a bad idea for balancing ranged classes.

nonono.

It is a GREAT idea. Nerf accuracy, lower missile speed even more, esp. on the high tier bows.
The amount of whining due to randomness and billions of additional team hits will be epic.
Would hate to miss that.

And ATTS will have a SURGE in new members.

(((if anyone did not detect a certain amount of sarcasm in this post, he has the average melee IQ)))
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Offline Adamar

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Re: Nerf ranged
« Reply #206 on: December 10, 2013, 06:28:42 pm »
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That's plenty enough time to get shot around your shield.

Also nowadays, when you approach a ranged nest, the closest to you with start fighting in melee, and it may take a couple of seconds or dozens of seconds to kill him, which is also enough for the others to shoot you down.

You wanted to kill em all on your own, huh...

Offline Leshma

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Re: Nerf ranged
« Reply #207 on: December 10, 2013, 06:33:21 pm »
+2
If someone is able to ambush ranged and get into their nest unnoticed, and they can't fight back with melee weapon, they should die. If they can defend themselves, they deserve to win. But short range shooting is bullshit.

Offline Adamar

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Re: Nerf ranged
« Reply #208 on: December 10, 2013, 06:54:07 pm »
-1
If someone is able to ambush ranged and get into their nest unnoticed, and they can't fight back with melee weapon, they should die. If they can defend themselves, they deserve to win. But short range shooting is bullshit.

Just like all the tk that happens in such situations.

Offline Molly

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Re: Nerf ranged
« Reply #209 on: December 10, 2013, 07:02:06 pm »
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Nerfing accuracy is a bad idea for balancing ranged classes. It limits skill and makes randomness a bigger factor. Other stats could be adjusted since you can adapt to it, but accuracy nerf just fucks people over even if they play well, which I find rather silly. :?

All about speed bonus. Heavy Horses suck up a lot of projectiles if they run away, then again, 1-3 hits with good speed bonus is enough to take them down. I think that's fine myself. I play mostly on destrier and padded warhorse and performance- and survivability-wise they don't differ much from another.
I didn't suggest any solution cuz I honestly lack the experience to propose anything. I merely wrote down my experiences I made over the last few weeks playing my HA alt.

Those are the problems I see. How to fix them is not my task nor is it in my possibility to do so.
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