This double hit business

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

LOL You haven't played mauler too much, have you?

Even with my 1h morningstar alt (slower than gmaul) with 0ath the average grey with a scimitar and a shield couldn't spam me.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

They are the only ones pose a treat to maulers. But with some proper footwork you can avoid range of their left swing spam and hit them after, killing them or knocking them down. And they are threat only to me, because I don't wear head armor. If I had some plate helmet they would die most of the time.

Out of all strength crutchers you can see on servers, only Butan is skilled because he chambers often and knows when to strike to avoid blocks. Dudes like Skono and b0nk are literally crutching on gear, they are average melee fighters at best. Butan is deadly even in light armor, Skono and b0nk aren't.

Haven't seen b0nk enough to judge but Skono is quite decent.

I am Batman.

Pro tip: You have insane retarded 2h sideswing anims and a shitload of blunt dmg, sideswing and you cannot be spammed if you got the least bit of skill.

[cmp]

Yeah theorycrafting balance doesn't work and thats why this, the turning change ect are all bad.

Play the game or get someone else who does to do changes, instead of the theorycraftings of someone mediocre at the game.

Just answer the question.

[Kafein]

That was sarcasm. It's easy to say that this change favors armor, strength and crushthrough (because you survive more and hit harder), but you forget that armor lowers your effective weapon proficiency, high strength means that you have lower weapon proficiency and crushthrough weapons are slow. The "second" hit isn't that useful if you are too slow to pull it off.

I plused because that's a nice and well commented response. But I still don't think it is a good change in any way. If lancer duels become more trivial, cav will focus even more on inf, generating more cav qq. Also weapon speed is the least important stat, length compensates speed any day on side swings, by making the tip of the weapon travel in fact much faster than with short and fast weapons. Also add turning into swings and phasing through player models. In fact I never interrupt maulers or, god forbid, hiltslashers by a very long shot, sometimes I'm even confused, because it really looked like I was hit first on my screen.

Just answer the question.

Depends on how much moving around and turning into swings those people do. Depends if you mean both hold and release at the same time or both tap. Depends on the length of the weapons and distance between the players at the instant of the impact.

[a_bear_irl]

Just answer the question.

this is your problem, CMP, you guys keep 90% of the numbers close to the chest so you're the only person in the thread who could answer that. but numbers don't really matter, the problem is you theorycrafting based on numbers when you don't even play the game, dude. you're assuming only super pro agi players would take advantage of this, in the "real world" the only people who really benefit are str builds - ordinarily if they get outplayed/outswung they'd just take a hit, now if they're banking on an outswing, ssometimes even when they screw it up they'll get a free hit in.

[Teeth]

That was sarcasm. It's easy to say that this change favors armor, strength and crushthrough (because you survive more and hit harder), but you forget that armor lowers your effective weapon proficiency, high strength means that you have lower weapon proficiency and crushthrough weapons are slow. The "second" hit isn't that useful if you are too slow to pull it off.

This is not true. After they block they will often try to overhead you, due to crushthrough your options are either to spam and interrupt them or to avoid their hit altogether. Going with spamming is pretty reliable, but it does involve hitting just a little before their hit will land. Which with this brilliant change could mean that his 40b still knocks you in the face due to not actually interrupting him.

Besides that, with outranging and group fighting situations you are not always in a 1 vs 1 regular block-hit pattern. Which means these double hits occur regardless of the speed of the user and it does not necessarily have to be a spam attempt. Now if I get fucked over by this with 40 body armour fighting someone with 9 ps and a 46 cut weapon, yeah one could say it favours strength. The other way around wouldn't really worry the guy. You can't trust your interrupting anymore and random hits have always been bad for agi builds.

The attack speed difference is irrelevant because we are not talking about 1 vs 1 situations exclusively, you don't have to be fast to hit within 40 ms of your opponent. Happens all the time to everyone, it just fucks over agi builds. Which I already said but I wanted to get this clear.

[cmp]

this is your problem, CMP, you guys keep 90% of the numbers close to the chest so you're the only person in the thread who could answer that. but numbers don't really matter, the problem is you theorycrafting based on numbers when you don't even play the game, dude. you're assuming only super pro agi players would take advantage of this, in the "real world" the only people who really benefit are str builds - ordinarily if they get outplayed/outswung they'd just take a hit, now if they're banking on an outswing, ssometimes even when they screw it up they'll get a free hit in.

How is a STR player taking advantage of this when his attack animation is slower than yours plus the entire double hit window? Are you trying to hit him long after he started his attack and you expect that to work? Is he turning into his swing at the right time and you aren't?
What if maybe you were just outplayed?

This is not true. After they block they will often try to overhead you, due to crushthrough your options are either to spam and interrupt them or to avoid their hit altogether. Going with spamming is pretty reliable, but it does involve hitting just a little before their hit will land. Which with this brilliant change could mean that his 40b still knocks you in the face due to not actually interrupting him.

Try this on EU1.

[BADPLAYER_old2]

How is a STR player taking advantage of this when his attack animation is slower than yours plus the entire double hit window? Are you trying to hit him long after he started his attack and you expect that to work? Is he turning into his swing at the right time and you aren't?
What if maybe you were just outplayed?

Are you intentionally acting like an idiot to troll or?

[a_bear_irl]

How is a STR player taking advantage of this when his attack animation is slower than yours plus the entire double hit window? Are you trying to hit him long after he started his attack and you expect that to work? Is he turning into his swing at the right time and you aren't?
What if maybe you were just outplayed?

exactly how many years has it been since you've played this game cmp

[oprah_winfrey]

How is a STR player taking advantage of this when his attack animation is slower than yours plus the entire double hit window? Are you trying to hit him long after he started his attack and you expect that to work? Is he turning into his swing at the right time and you aren't?
What if maybe you were just outplayed?

Most players, whether they be str crutchers or agi crutchers have about the same wpf, since WM is shit. So won't they swing at the same speed?

[Phew]

Depends on how much moving around and turning into swings those people do.

QFT. I get double-hit by 96 speed miaodaos WAY more often than scimitars or steel picks or quarterstaves (faster weapons, but that can't benefit from absurd 2h sideswing animations). Weapon speed stat is largely irrelevant, especially with 2h, since you can do the silly hiltslash squaredance to make every swing hit before the animation even starts.

In the real world, you want to swing at stuff in front of you (tennis/golf/baseball/you name it), not way off behind your shoulder like crpg encourages. Physics dictates as much.

If this latest change was intended to bring more physics into gameplay, fine, then lets also add physics into the sweet spot mechanics, which would actually improve the game. There's nothing that ruins the epicness of the game more than watching 2h heroes running around with their backs to their enemies just so their swings land faster.

[Kato]

Its sad, it looks like chadz team going on the way of fatshark failed team , they have similar great ideas about combat mechanics and we know how they end, their game is less played then Mount and Blade: With fire and sword

Taleworlds are only that done in right first time i hope that they can repeat it and improve.

My expectation about M:BG are now way lower.

[Kafein]

This isn't about M:BG. Just saying.

[Falka]

Leaving aside the str build issues, if in my turn, after blocking my opponents hit, I make swing with nordic sword which kills that guy and despite of that I still got hit, it's plainly wrong. I'm punished for doing good and winning duel. I don't get it how it's good for gameplay.   

How is a STR player taking advantage of this when his attack animation is slower than yours plus the entire double hit window? Are you trying to hit him long after he started his attack and you expect that to work? Is he turning into his swing at the right time and you aren't?
What if maybe you were just outplayed?

Outplayed by hitting str player first...

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[Gurnisson]

cmp, do you think it's good that both players take damage when one player times their attack better than the other? Try being hoplite/spearman or lancer when they charge eachother, or lancer vs. lancer. I find it ridiculous that one of the more exciting challenges in the game, which result is always defined within a very small timing window, now get's both of the players damaged. Yes, I know that there's reduced damage for the player who gets hit last (now), but if you don't make any mistake, why should you take damage, or even die because of it? It promotes backstabbing cavalry yet again (like the reduced lance angle), and I guess it might promote longer spears like pike/long spear instead of war spears/forks, which (other) people complains dumb down the melee part of the game.

As for the rest of the melee part, I've yet to experience a lot of it and won't bring any complaining or praise for that (yet), since my appearances on EU1 stopped when what I mentioned above happened. One-shot by people I outreach.