Knockdown

[Crob28]

Maybe it's just me, but I tend to find I get knocked down more frequently than I believe is "fair", yes I guess this is a QQ but at the same time it does suck that during a fight if you make one mistake you will get knocked down and end up taking 2-3 hits.

Or my new personal favorite move :

Hit(knocked down), hit on the ground, kicked whilst standing, hit(knocked down again), hit and killed on the ground.

I have been getting somewhat annoyed by knockdown lately and I believe the reason is simply that taking one hit and being knocked down is often an instant win for your opponent.

[Zanze]

i think it should be nerfed: i don't really like

Opinions don't change anything. The opinions of one person specifically, don't really matter. Put up a poll in game balance discussion, not here.

Also, on the topic, the name of this game is skill. A naked peasant with a pitchfork could kill an armored knight (granted he doesn't glance every hit) if the skill gap was large enough. If your opponent chooses to use a short and usually slow weapon just for the knockdown, he should be allowed to. Casually approaching a ranged xbower does not guarantee an instant victory for you, else THAT would be unbalanced. Unless of course that xbower could instantly kill you from a distance as easily as you do in melee range.

Tl,dr; Your opinion means nothing, the game is meant to be hard. See it as a challenge to be overcome, not an obstacle blocking your path.

[Tindel]

Maybe it's just me, but I tend to find I get knocked down more frequently than I believe is "fair", yes I guess this is a QQ but at the same time it does suck that during a fight if you make one mistake you will get knocked down and end up taking 2-3 hits.

Or my new personal favorite move :

Hit(knocked down), hit on the ground, kicked whilst standing, hit(knocked down again), hit and killed on the ground.

I have been getting somewhat annoyed by knockdown lately and I believe the reason is simply that taking one hit and being knocked down is often an instant win for your opponent.

this

[Miwiw]

knockdown = random


random in a pvpgame = bad

No, it's not. That's the good thing. There is a lot of difference in dmg amounts, really often. You can glance and do low to zero dmg, you can do a great hit and take half of enemie's hp. That "randomness" as much as the "randomness" with knockdowns is needed.
If you knew by 100% chance that a certain thing is gonna happen in the next move, e.g. the guy in front of you do not knockdown you can react to the situation and don't block the swing if you don't must (and know you will not die). But if you know nothing about it, its far better as you have to THINK.

Do I block it or do I risk a counterattack which can fail, and if I fail, will I be knocked down or not? Is it better to step to the side and risk a stab or should I take a step backwards, wait for help or just ignore my enemy and run? Should I take out my 0 skill shield and block two arrows and be slow or should I try to dodge and reach the archer earlier to kill him?
Should I couch that guy from behind or just bump, turn and stab? What is easier, will he shoot me right in my face if I couch my lance? Is that too risky for me? Do I better with just a bump and let friendly archers kill him?
Do I risk my life for that?

What is better about a game where you exactly know what is going to happen everytime? No crushthrough, no knockdown, no bumps, no couch lance, no "insta stabs", nothing different? How boring would that be?

[CrazyCracka420]

Pro tip, there's a suggestion section of the forums.

http://forum.meleegaming.com/suggestions-corner/

But since you're just whining, may I suggest that next time you use the Spam section of the forums?

http://forum.meleegaming.com/spam/

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

[darmaster]

Sorry Darmaster but honestly,
you seem like being totally brainfucked.

130 wpf?
Nerf hybrids even more, gg Greatsword- my old friends

Apart from the FACT (you dont present any facts here)
that the knockdown chance with 5 ps and maybe 80-100 wpf
is very low (guess it was around 10%with a Mace, 28 blunt, but dun remember right)
there is the fact that only Blunt/Pierce weps are viable for ranged builds with low wpf
on the melee wep.

I just read through some of your suggestions and honestly asked myself
who can fuck a brain so deeply.

scuse nerf hybrid what? i just said that it would be more fair if a paesant without ps could not knockdown a fullplate guy: it doesn't seem pretty braindamaged imo. and i didn't post this only for one guy, but i did because it looks pretty usual gettin knocked down by a xbower that should use the mace only for defending himself and not for killing people in melee.

[CrazyCracka420]

Archers typically DID use blunt and pierce weapons against heavily armored people, because their cut weapons wouldn't touch em.  A hammer can smash in a breast plate or smash in a helmet (if hit in the right location).  I think knockdown is fine, it's just a part of the game, something you need to take into account.

Most blunt/knockdown weapons are weaker than their pierce counter-parts because they have the chance to knockdown.  I think that's just fine the way it is.  And someone with very low PS or WPF is not going to be knocking people down very often, because it's a calculation that happens for knockdown to occur, and one of the big factors is how much damage your hit did.

[Miwiw]

scuse nerf hybrid what? i just said that it would be more fair if a paesant without ps could not knockdown a fullplate guy: it doesn't seem pretty braindamaged imo. and i didn't post this only for one guy, but i did because it looks pretty usual gettin knocked down by a xbower that should use the mace only for defending himself and not for killing people in melee.

Guardian rather meant the WPF thingie. A hybrid often doesnt get 130 wpf in either weapon mastery, only sometimes with lots of WM. Same actually with PS as well, if the hybrid is going for more Agi and sticks with 15 STR what I would do as dedicated crossbowman as well. 15/24 is a perfect build for that on level 30, which means 5 PS but 8 WM for enough WPF for Arbalest.

Why is the xbower not supposed to kill people? I thought most people want ranged guys to be good in melee as well, so they do not see any advantage in kiting. Do you like kiting? It looks like that, because if you have no chance to kill someone in melee, why even consider melee fighting? Running is the better choice then.

[sF_Guardian]

scuse nerf hybrid what? i just said that it would be more fair if a paesant without ps could not knockdown a fullplate guy: it doesn't seem pretty braindamaged imo. and i didn't post this only for one guy, but i did because it looks pretty usual gettin knocked down by a xbower that should use the mace only for defending himself and not for killing people in melee.

So how shall he defend himself without killing them? Endless blocking?
Besides that a real peasant will knockdown a plate dude maybe 1% of his hits and would not do much dmg.


The most damaged brain award 2012 is yours, congratz.

Now move your thread to suggestions corner or spam and stop attention whoring with whiny shit.

[BlackMilk]

Apart from the FACT (you dont present any facts here)
that the knockdown chance with 5 ps and maybe 80-100 wpf
is very low (guess it was around 10%with a Mace, 28 blunt, but dun remember right)

wow...great way of presenting facts...you really dun seem to remember right, because the knockdown chance is ALOT higher. I got 40 wpf and 5 ps with a non loomed mace and it's been like that for some time now and the knockdown chance is atleast 15-20% which in my opinion is quite ridicolous. I can knock down anyone and it's even worse when I hold my swings.
Also it's so typical for you to come up with a completly made out of the blue and irrelevant argument and then start to insult people. how mature.

Why is the xbower not supposed to kill people? I thought most people want ranged guys to be good in melee as well, so they do not see any advantage in kiting. Do you like kiting? It looks like that, because if you have no chance to kill someone in melee, why even consider melee fighting? Running is the better choice then.

Simple : in my opinion xbowers (and I'm one of them) are too good in melee. the difference between 50 and 120 wpf is not that enourmos especially not with a fast weapon like the mace and it's allways tough to fight against a 8 athletics + light armor using guy with a blunt weapon that knocks you down all the time.

So how shall he defend himself without killing them? Endless blocking?
Besides that a real peasant will knockdown a plate dude maybe 1% of his hits and would not do much dmg.


The most damaged brain award 2012 is yours, congratz.

Now move your thread to suggestions corner or spam and stop attention whoring with whiny shit.

You can't be fucking serious. A guy who's using a 50 gold hammer is not supposed to kill a plate user in melee, especially not with low ps and if he does so he's probably a really good player and the plate user is really bad. but balance wise the plate user should end up winning mostly/all the time. and OF COURSE you again come up with a completly irrelevant argument and start the insults. jarlek style.

[Siiem]

Blackmilk, just give up he has facts!

[darmaster]

Archers typically DID use blunt and pierce weapons against heavily armored people, because their cut weapons wouldn't touch em.  A hammer can smash in a breast plate or smash in a helmet (if hit in the right location).  I think knockdown is fine, it's just a part of the game, something you need to take into account.

Most blunt/knockdown weapons are weaker than their pierce counter-parts because they have the chance to knockdown.  I think that's just fine the way it is.  And someone with very low PS or WPF is not going to be knocking people down very often, because it's a calculation that happens for knockdown to occur, and one of the big factors is how much damage your hit did.

i like your way of argue, very civil. anyway, these problems should care only the pure melee people; i mean if you are an archer you just use these weapons only to defend yourself. same for a xbowman if you use arbalest or heavy xbow, you don't charge in melee fight cause you shoot from the distance, you're first of all a ranged.


and please guys don't emphasize what i said, that's a sneaky mean to win an argumentation: i didn't say remove the knockdown, remove the chance to win, nerf hybrids or whatever: i just said that it's pretty annoying having almost 60 bodyarmor and being knocked down (and almost killed) by an improvised melee fighter. and i also think that these guys even without knockdown could take care of themselves if they're enough good, just they don't have such an unfair (imo) advantage.

and sF_Guardian, nice way of arguing: you just look like an exited kid.

[sF_Guardian]

wow...great way of presenting facts...you really dun seem to remember right, because the knockdown chance is ALOT higher. I got 40 wpf and 5 ps with a non loomed mace and it's been like that for some time now and the knockdown chance is atleast 15-20% which in my opinion is quite ridicolous. I can knock down anyone and it's even worse when I hold my swings.
Also it's so typical for you to come up with a completly made out of the blue and irrelevant argument and then start to insult people. how mature.
Simple : in my opinion xbowers (and I'm one of them) are too good in melee. the difference between 50 and 120 wpf is not that enourmos especially not with a fast weapon like the mace and it's allways tough to fight against a 8 athletics + light armor using guy with a blunt weapon that knocks you down all the time.
You can't be fucking serious. A guy who's using a 50 gold hammer is not supposed to kill a plate user in melee, especially not with low ps and if he does so he's probably a really good player and the plate user is really bad. but balance wise the plate user should end up winning mostly/all the time. and OF COURSE you again come up with a completly irrelevant argument and start the insults. jarlek style.

1st:

Weapon modifiers
- Crushthrough has a chance of ignoring block on overhead strikes. This depends on strength and weapon weight. There is also a random element.
- Knockdown has a chance to knock down enemy on swings. This depends on weapon mass, but does contain a significant random element.
Quote

    The mechanic for knockdown is (rand(0.0, 1.0) < min(item_weight * 0.33, 2.0) * min((raw_damage - 20.0) * 0.5, 10.0) * 0.015) according to Paul (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,20938.msg299772.html#msg299772). How this kind of equation works is that the higher the right side value is, the higher the chance of success is. Percentual chance of success is the right side of equation.

    This means two things affect knockdown chance. Weight of the item and raw damage of the swing. If we assume a hit does at least 40 raw damage, which is very likely for a decent hit from almost any weapon with knockdown with 5 PS or so, the knockdown chance boils down to min(item_weight * 0.33, 2.0) * 0.15. This means that the maximum weight for this calculation is 6. This results in the knockdown chance being 0.0495 * item_weight, meaing 4.95% chance of knockdown per item weight (this could be rounded to 5% like Paul did, but 0.33 isnt 1/3 for exact chance). This allows tabling some weights:

    Weight 1.5 (Hammer, Club): 7.425%
    Weight 2.5 (Flanged Mace, Iron Mace, Goedendag): 12.375%
    Weight 3 (Warhammer, Long Hafterd Spiked Mace): 14.85%
    Weight 4.5 (Long Iron Mace, Bar Mace: 22.275%
    Weight 6 and above (every crushthrough weapon): 29.7%

    The effect of damage is a multiplier to this chance, min((raw_damage - 20.0) * 0.5, 10.0). At 40 or more raw damage the multiplier is it's maximum (10), resulting in our assumed values above. Attacks below 20 raw damage cause the multiplier to be 0, meaning 0% chance of knockdown. Between 20 and 40 raw damage each point of raw damage increases the multiplier by 0.05. This means that the knockdown chance calculated above goes down by 5% per point of raw damage below 40 (for example 38 damage attack with a warhammer means 14.85% * 0.9 = 13.365% chance of knockdown). As said above though, in most practical cases most of these weapons will deal at least 40 raw damage with a decent hit, so that part of the equation is fairly meaningless.

And 2nd:
I`m not talkin about hammers but about Maces and Warhammers which are intended to KILL plate users.
If thats your way to present facts you ain`t better than the stereotype you seem to think I am.

[Siiem]

Actually I completely disagree, buff hybrids. More diversity, I frequently find myself respeccing out of boredom whiskey. I don't care if that means more ranged because at this point the game is already crawling with them. I wouldn't mind some more swords that are viable for hybrids but this takes effort and work. So, fu I'm out from now ON!

[sF_Guardian]

Guardian rather meant the WPF thingie. A hybrid often doesnt get 130 wpf in either weapon mastery, only sometimes with lots of WM. Same actually with PS as well, if the hybrid is going for more Agi and sticks with 15 STR what I would do as dedicated crossbowman as well. 15/24 is a perfect build for that on level 30, which means 5 PS but 8 WM for enough WPF for Arbalest.

Why is the xbower not supposed to kill people? I thought most people want ranged guys to be good in melee as well, so they do not see any advantage in kiting. Do you like kiting? It looks like that, because if you have no chance to kill someone in melee, why even consider melee fighting? Running is the better choice then.

Thank you for pointin it out Miwiw, actually isn`t hard to understand but still thanks
This guy complains about kiting on one hand but does complain about OP knockdown from
peasants (Op or not, dunnno, he just says he doesn`t like it).
Pretty twisted since blunt and pierce weps are actually one of
the very few choices for a low ps ranged dude who
has just 1 free slot.
Liting the weapons of choice to only one type since
blunt weps would be worse in all means than pierce ones for
a normal 5 ps arbalester or 3-5 ps archer would be
a shot in your own face since kiting would
be an even more used tatic after all.