Knockdown

[darmaster]

guardian you still don't mean that ranged aren't supposed to kill people in melee. they can and that's fair to me, but they still have to be disadvantaged in melee combat: for xbower these disadvantages don't exist because surely they have to protect themselves when reloading, in fact differently from the archer, they have a rate of fire strongly lower, and that's ok too, but still some disadvantages have to be, because they're not pure 2handers or 1handers: that's why i think AT LEAST the knockdown shouldn't be allowed for people who doesn't have a pure melee build (so 6 ps or 130 wpf but that's just a fast suggestion, you can easily find other fair solutions)

[sF_Guardian]

guardian you still don't mean that ranged aren't supposed to kill people in melee. they can and that's fair to me, but they still have to be disadvantaged in melee combat: for xbower these disadvantages don't exist because surely they have to protect themselves when reloading, in fact differently from the archer, they have a rate of fire strongly lowest, and that's ok too, but still some disadvantages have to be, because they're not pure 2handers or 1handers: that's why i think AT LEAST the knockdown shouldn't be allowed for people who doesn't have a pure melee build (so 6 ps or 130 wpf but that's just a fast suggestion, you can easily find other fair solutions)

They have less wpf (which matters quite alot with low ps), cant take a shield (except of 0-slot axe bs or 0 slot buckler), cant take a 2 or 3 slot weapon (as full x-bower, arbalester).
No, they have no disadvantages...

And to your first point, yes, I still mean ranged are supposed to be able to kill in melee

There are pure melee build with less than 130wpf and less than 5ps btw and I dont
think one needs to give pure melee builds even more anvantages in melee.

[Kelugarn]

The beauty of knockdown is that it is random, and that anyone can (with the right combination of modifiers) lay out a 33/6 full-plate-beast flat on their back. Knockdown's current method of implementation makes it one of the "great equalizers" in cRPG right now. Because knockdown is dependent on "real" damage dealt to your opponent (as opposed to "raw" damage output) WPF, PS, speed modifiers, and enemy armor already play a major role in determining knockdown frequency. The system proposed in the original post is only a redundant and incomplete substitute for the current system which produces infrequent, but still effective, knockdown frequency.

If you're pissed about a mace or hammer knocking you on your ass in your 57 body armor, try not walking into the swing next time.

[Tindel]

No, it's not. That's the good thing. There is a lot of difference in dmg amounts, really often. You can glance and do low to zero dmg, you can do a great hit and take half of enemie's hp. That "randomness" as much as the "randomness" with knockdowns is needed.
If you knew by 100% chance that a certain thing is gonna happen in the next move, e.g. the guy in front of you do not knockdown you can react to the situation and don't block the swing if you don't must (and know you will not die). But if you know nothing about it, its far better as you have to THINK.

Do I block it or do I risk a counterattack which can fail, and if I fail, will I be knocked down or not? Is it better to step to the side and risk a stab or should I take a step backwards, wait for help or just ignore my enemy and run? Should I take out my 0 skill shield and block two arrows and be slow or should I try to dodge and reach the archer earlier to kill him?
Should I couch that guy from behind or just bump, turn and stab? What is easier, will he shoot me right in my face if I couch my lance? Is that too risky for me? Do I better with just a bump and let friendly archers kill him?
Do I risk my life for that?

What is better about a game where you exactly know what is going to happen everytime? No crushthrough, no knockdown, no bumps, no couch lance, no "insta stabs", nothing different? How boring would that be?

Nothing about this post makes any sense. You are compairing totally different things as if they were the same.
Have a % chance on a swing connect to instantly win the fight is not the same as a varying dmg amount on factors you can control.

And interesting that you list crushtrough, which is even more fucking gay than knockdown. A noskill feature that adds notthing of value to the game. As well as couched lance damage.

Things that reduce the level of skill required to win are bad for the game.

But i guess some people need them crutches,  cav couched lance on battle and mauler camping ladders on sieges.    woooooo funnnn...............

[Sandersson Jankins]

I am currently a 15-24 arbalestier using the mace as a secondary. MW arb and +2 mace. I have 5 PS and I estimate that against a MEDIUM armoured target (around heraldic mail and mail shirts) I would say as OBJECTIVELY as possible I get around 15 percent knockdown. Against a plate user I seem to get around 10 percent. Against plain clothes folks, I'll knock them down as much as 25 percent.

Now, here's what you must take into consideration. I have 2 ironflesh with a 15str build. I will go down in 2 hits of a 21/18 2h user if he gets quality hits in. I only use 100wpf in 2h MAXIMUM in order to be an effective arbalestier. That means a dedicated melee will ALWAYS be able to swing faster than I can unless I out-play him in footwork or feinting. If it is a simple block-attack-block fight, he will win. In order to emerge from a melee with a dedicated melee victorious, I MUST rely on teammates, luck, being very unpredictable, or actually being better than the other player.


As something like a post-script: remember that knockdown chance is not a flat value across all builds. It is based upon raw damage dealt and your weapon's weight. A loomed knockdown weapon will gain weight to become more effective. You may be experiencing +2 or +3 maces such as mine and become frustrated by that. Just remember, if you land 2 solid hits on me as a strength or even balanced build, I WILL die. I must land 5-6 solid hits on a medium armoured dedicated melee foe to slay him. If I fight a plate user with a heavy strength build, it will take me something like at LEAST 10 hits to kill him on my own. Just TRY taking down fucking empauller or vaalken with my build in melee.

[Kelugarn]

Also, I forgot to point out in my first post that knocking someone down is not an "instant win". I have knocked down players had had them rise up to live, and just as often fight back long enough to escape or kill me. Getting knocked down is only a death sentence if the conditions are right for their "free hit" to kill you, if it connects. This means, assuming that you're in your 57 body armor, that you have already taken substantial damage or that they have massive amounts of PS.

Getting knocked down by a blunt weapon is similar to getting knocked down by a horse in many ways. It's only a death sentence if you were fighting against the odds to begin with.

[Corwin]

I have a stupid question regarding knockdown. If I am on horse, and I have some hammer in my hand, and I hit someone with that hammer, don't even touch with a horse, is there any possibility that a knockdown will happen?

[Kelugarn]

I have a stupid question regarding knockdown. If I am on horse, and I have some hammer in my hand, and I hit someone with that hammer, don't even touch with a horse, is there any possibility that a knockdown will happen?

Yes, and considering the speed bonus of the approaching horse as you swing your knockdown chance would be substantially higher than if you had hit the same opponent on foot.

[Falka]

a pure melee build (so 6 ps or 130 wpf

Lulz, my char is pure 2her and has 124 wpf. Lvl 34. Also, most of the ninja guys have only 5 PS. So you're trying to say we're not supposed to use knockdawn weapons? 

I only use 100wpf in 2h MAXIMUM in order to be an effective arbalestier. That means a dedicated melee will ALWAYS be able to swing faster than I can

Not true, difference between your 100 and 150 wpf is meaningless and mace is the third fastest 2h weapon. So no, dedicated 2hers don't swing faster.

Just remember, if you land 2 solid hits on me as a strength or even balanced build, I WILL die. I must land 5-6 solid hits on a medium armoured dedicated melee foe to slay him.

Not true. With +3 mace, 5 PS and 100 wpf you deal 20,5 average damage with every hit against guy having 50 body armor. Or even more including speed bonus. On the other hand with +3 danish, 124 wpf, 7 PS on average I'd deal 28,5 damage to the same guy. I'm not saying you're not at a disadvantage in terms of melee fight, but you're exaggerating a bit, don't you think?

[Kafein]

The good thing about knockdown is that it is nearly random, more STR improves it (true?) but you can never tell when you get knocked down, thats a good thing!

Actually that's terrible and makes the game less skill based.




I think knockdown weapons are a little overpowered, especially when it comes to 1h maces, at least compared to other 1h. They are still very bad when you look at weapons from other classes. It's the use of those small maces by agi characters that really makes them horrible to fight against.

Btw, I use a knockdown 1h myself and I feel very bad for my victim when I get 2 free hits (attack, kick, attack) on him because he was unlucky.

[Sandersson Jankins]

Lulz, my char is pure 2her and has 124 wpf. Lvl 34. Also, most of the ninja guys have only 5 PS. So you're trying to say we're not supposed to use knockdawn weapons? 

Not true, difference between your 100 and 150 wpf is meaningless and mace is the third fastest 2h weapon. So no, dedicated 2hers don't swing faster.

Not true. With +3 mace, 5 PS and 100 wpf you deal 20,5 average damage with every hit against guy having 50 body armor. Or even more including speed bonus. On the other hand with +3 danish, 124 wpf, 7 PS on average I'd deal 28,5 damage to the same guy. I'm not saying you're not at a disadvantage in terms of melee fight, but you're exaggerating a bit, don't you think?

The only thing that comes to mind is a question. Do you play on EU or NA? I don't recognize your name, so I hope I'm not incorrect in assuming you play on EU. My post's evidence is purely anecdotal. I don't care to crunch numbers so much in a vidya game. But it seems that NA has a large proportion of strength builds in comparision to EU, correct? Perhaps that's where we do not see eye to eye. Maybe I've got luck that seems to find me fighting 27-12 builds all day long.

In regards to the out-swinging comment; again my evidence is purely anecdotal. Perhaps the majority of the dedicated melee players that I find myself engaging are indeed much more skilled than I am in terms of footwork and other dueling skills. I don't think that to be the case, since I often get valour as a ranged-dominant hybrid, which many people I have talked to consider under-powered when it comes to getting points and thusly valour.

One thing I did not mention is the fact that the mace is 70 length. That ain't shit, cap'n. I haven't actually seen a complaint about other knockdown weapons (mauls, mallet, knobbed and spiked maces, goendag, etc) which are much greater length. Many knockdowns and kills are gained from attacks on players that are not actively fighting you. I.e. sneak attacks. If I get in a sneak attack with a 70-length weapon, I feel that the other person deserves to get whacked a time or two for that.

I'm really not attempting to exaggerate. I did think for a while on what numbers to claim I experienced. But, for the umpteenth time, I barely did any research into them. And, of course, it is human tendency to recall negative events more often than positive events. Negative events are accompanied by anger, frustration, etc. A much more memorable emotion than "lol i just knocked that bundle of sticks down and killed him lol"

[Falka]

I don't disagree with you. Just thought these two sentences which I quoted aren't completely true. But I'm perfectly fine with knockdown and your mace  Cheers 

[dreadnok]

knockdown is utter horseshit in this game. there is no rhyme or reason to it. a hammer that glances can knock you down. obvioulsy it isnt about damage.

[sF_Guardian]

knockdown is utter horseshit in this game. there is no rhyme or reason to it. a hammer that glances can knock you down. obvioulsy it isnt about damage.

Raw damage has nothing to do with armor values.

[Cepeshi]

I do not think