Author Topic: Pew! Pew! Pew!  (Read 17166 times)

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Offline Zisa

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Re: Pew! Pew! Pew!
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2011, 11:33:11 pm »
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Well...
let's ignore 'balance' etc and see if you have ever or often encountered the following 3 scenarios:

team immediatly throws up ladders to get to a roof, where they will snipe and or die.
(often breaking them once up)

pretty well two lines of opposing throwers within spitting distance zinging stuff at each other, rather then change mode or weapon.

Dude with crossbow shoots, hides to reload, watches a 2 on 1 melee 5 feet in front of him.
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Offline Penitent

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Re: Pew! Pew! Pew!
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2011, 11:44:32 pm »
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Well...
let's ignore 'balance' etc and see if you have ever or often encountered the following 3 scenarios:

team immediatly throws up ladders to get to a roof, where they will snipe and or die.
(often breaking them once up)

pretty well two lines of opposing throwers within spitting distance zinging stuff at each other, rather then change mode or weapon.

Dude with crossbow shoots, hides to reload, watches a 2 on 1 melee 5 feet in front of him.

1st one....no, never encountered.  I've seen small portions of a team go on a roof and shoot.  It doesn't help the rest of their team a whole lot though.  If that small roof-squad ends up being the last members on their team, they usually die.

2nd one...never encountered this.  It's always a mix of melee and throwers (or other ranged).  While the melee charge forward, the throwers try to weaken the other team's melee.  I've never seen 2 lines of all throwers.

3rd one...yes, I have encountered this.  When I play archer I do this, because I'm more effective for my team with a bow than my 2-hander.  I'm also more effective alive than dead, so I try to stay out of melee range until I'm forced to engage....even if I can stay only a few feet away without being engaged in melee and still shoot..I will do this!  Makes sense, but I can't speak too much of xbow players.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2011, 11:47:30 pm by Garison »

Offline Havoco

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Re: Pew! Pew! Pew!
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2011, 11:51:05 pm »
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If i had gold enough for that, i would carry a Light Crossbow on ALL my melee/cav chars. Why not?!

I can make that one lucky headshot, on someone who is far. Or discourage cavalry from picking on me in a field. Or cover my own retreat, while simply holding my xbow up, and aiming from one enemy to another.

Xbow, is not even raising my kill-count. I am normally killing more enemies using melee only weapons, since i don't waste time reloading in the bushes :) But it makes me more versatile, and gives me more possibilities to fight enemies on my terms.

Xbows=money to use. Bows=PD and money to use. Throwing=PT and money to use.Even though the upper tier xbows do require more money than the others. MONEY cant be used for balance.

This is what seemingly all players do. But unlike you, others WILL reload unless directly attacked. i just want to see xbows require something other than str. ALL players have that str requirement unless they are doing some agi stack build. Personally, wpf requirement would help but i think an xbow skill requirement would be the best fix.
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Offline Kophka

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Re: Pew! Pew! Pew!
« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2011, 01:17:42 am »
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Myself, I find it easier to play a melee character than a ranged character. I do have a Spear/Shield/Thrower, but I've been playing a skirmisher for a looong time, not gonna change it up because it's the FOTM (3 months running!). My thrower is often out of javs with in the first minute or 2 minutes of a round, because I use it to close the gap, not maintain a gap. So, what can we do to limit the amount of ranged on the field?

Keep in mind that these are just random thoughts thrown out to get the creative juices flowing, I honestly don't expect them to be implemented.  :)

1.)We can impose wpf restrictions, so that the "luck kill" with mid-high tier crossbows or throwing dry up.

2.) It may be possible to limit the number of ranged people by checking gear when the round starts, and not allowing overflow people to select their ranged. T
This, imo, is not a viable idea, as it hurts both honest players, and "lolrangers" equally.

3.) Imposing a limit on what you can carry if you have ranged gear equipped. EG: If you have crossbow, bow, or throwing weapons equipped, you can not equip weapon above a certain tier. This will make ranged an unattractive option for those who want to carry the better weapons.

4.) I know balance > realism, but sometimes realism can help balance out a bit. Sort out what is kept in what slots, and assign a stat to them. If you already have something in a slot (say, left hip) then you can't carry something else that fits there.

Offline kastellan

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Re: Pew! Pew! Pew!
« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2011, 04:22:28 am »
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3.) Imposing a limit on what you can carry if you have ranged gear equipped. EG: If you have crossbow, bow, or throwing weapons equipped, you can not equip weapon above a certain tier. This will make ranged an unattractive option for those who want to carry the better weapons.

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Offline Rhade

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Re: Pew! Pew! Pew!
« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2011, 05:25:44 am »
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Last gen I went dedicated 2-H.  Yes, there are definitely some maps (bridge maps especially) where I found myself chilling for a minute or so while the range spam sorted itself out and battle lines started crossing.  Early on I brought the crappy 0 req round shield and used that to burn a handful of arrows at the start of rounds.  Honestly though once I started leveling up and getting more str/wearing some armor I just got rid of the shield and practiced more sporadic movement when closing on archers.  Even though archery screwed me sometimes it actually wasn't really as big of a problem as a lot of people make it out to be.  More patience and less rambo helped avoid me many a archer death... I had to look and see what their ranged cover was in certain areas before over-pursuing people.  Helped me tactically.

The basic cycle of archer > 2-H > shield > archer seems to still be intact.  Complaining about archery as a 2-H player is like complaining about shields as an archer :P  The whole paper scissors rock thing.

Are you fucking kidding me?

How does 2h automatically beat a shield? Shielders have an auto block (shield) and excellent speed and reach?

An average shield user will destroy an average 2h user, as the 1h has a permanent blocking ability. The average 2h user will probably only land 1-2 blocks.

It really only seems this way because most of the elite melee players use a 2h and beat the legions of average shield players.

At the elite levels, 2h vs shield is an even match.

"Paper rock scissors" is a terrible balancing idea, just taking one class in game design will tell you that. However, let's assume it's acceptable: What exactly does 2h beat? It doesn't "beat" range, it doesn't "beat" shields and it doesn't "beat" itself.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2011, 05:30:50 am by Rhade »

Offline Thucydides

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Re: Pew! Pew! Pew!
« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2011, 11:11:56 am »
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it beats polearms. And polearms beat.....something

Offline Peasant_Woman

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Re: Pew! Pew! Pew!
« Reply #37 on: April 09, 2011, 01:26:35 pm »
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it beats polearms. And polearms beat.....something

polearms beat cavalry, which beat shields, which beat archers, which beat 2handers

Shields, 2handers and polearms all have equal chance to beat each other (assuming equal player skill), with shield beaing easier defensively and harder offensively due to autoblock and some protection from arrows but as a tradeoff less reach and less melee damage. Polearms have it easier offensively and harder defensively due to long reach and good/high damage but as a tradeoff the best melee polearms are (or should be) unbalanced. 2handers are good all rounders which do not excel offensively or defensively.
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Offline Christo

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Re: Pew! Pew! Pew!
« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2011, 03:50:18 pm »
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polearms beat cavalry, which beat shields, which beat archers, which beat 2handers

Shields, 2handers and polearms all have equal chance to beat each other (assuming equal player skill), with shield beaing easier defensively and harder offensively due to autoblock and some protection from arrows but as a tradeoff less reach and less melee damage. Polearms have it easier offensively and harder defensively due to long reach and good/high damage but as a tradeoff the best melee polearms are (or should be) unbalanced. 2handers are good all rounders which do not excel offensively or defensively.

That's how the game should work, but it doesn't.

Shielders have less damage? lol. Check pick, Side katana, etc. Those weapons are fast, do insane damage, and can hide behind a forcefield called the Huskarl.

Also, 2h does excel in offense, versus polearms. Crush-through 2handers also excel versus shielders.. and mostly anything not ranged.
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« Last Edit: April 09, 2011, 03:58:30 pm by Christo »
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Offline John

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Re: Pew! Pew! Pew!
« Reply #39 on: April 09, 2011, 06:54:56 pm »
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Hey, at least you're not a soldier in Shogun 2: Total War:

(click to show/hide)

They don't even have the option of carrying a shield if they wanted to!

Offline DarkFox

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Re: Pew! Pew! Pew!
« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2011, 07:09:38 pm »
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Funny thing,people talking about OP 1h,OP ranged,but when I look around,I see 2h army :rolleyes:.Trust me,the day will come,and everything will be nerfed except 2h swords,and then "true skilled players" will say that the game is perfect.

Offline Rhade

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Re: Pew! Pew! Pew!
« Reply #41 on: April 09, 2011, 09:26:32 pm »
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Funny thing,people talking about OP 1h,OP ranged,but when I look around,I see 2h army :rolleyes:.Trust me,the day will come,and everything will be nerfed except 2h swords,and then "true skilled players" will say that the game is perfect.

You see a "2h army"? Right.

Most skilled players use 2h because it does, in fact, take the most skill. Ranged doesn't even have to expose themselves to danger, shielders have an autoblock -- neither of them are fun, and both of them are easy to be "good" with.

Right now, "everything" doesn't need to be nerfed. That's not the point, and if you think that is the point you clearly lack reading comprehension.

My only point regarding shields was counter pointing someone else who said range>2h>shields>range when in fact range < shields = 2h < range.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2011, 09:27:34 pm by Rhade »

Offline DarkFox

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Re: Pew! Pew! Pew!
« Reply #42 on: April 09, 2011, 10:40:10 pm »
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You see a "2h army"? Right.

Most skilled players use 2h because it does, in fact, take the most skill. Ranged doesn't even have to expose themselves to danger, shielders have an autoblock -- neither of them are fun, and both of them are easy to be "good" with.

Right now, "everything" doesn't need to be nerfed. That's not the point, and if you think that is the point you clearly lack reading comprehension.

My only point regarding shields was counter pointing someone else who said range>2h>shields>range when in fact range < shields = 2h < range.
Warband is not "Paper rock scissors" game,but some weapon can have some advantage against some class,or in some special situations.Yeah,2h is the most defenceless class,but it doesnt mean the most hard class,they are very good in melee.They are good in duels and perfect in group battles like 5v5.Actually MnB never supposed to have ''2h class",there is "infantry class"-shielder with secondary weapon like 2h,polearm or throwing weapon.And no,2h dont take the most skill,shielders have their own disadvantages,usually slow block speed/weak shield and low damage.Ive tryed to play as a shielder and as  2h,so I know what I am talking about.And yes,I see an army of heavy armored 2hers with german greatswords.
  My personal thoughts about hybrid system.I love it,because this system worked from the first versions of MnB,you are not just some ''tank class'' from stupid mrpg,you are true soldier.Ranged spam happens not because people can put few points in bow,it happens because the repair prices are too low,one of my char have 40k,another one 75k.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2011, 10:43:55 pm by DarkFox »

Offline Rhade

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Re: Pew! Pew! Pew!
« Reply #43 on: April 09, 2011, 11:10:16 pm »
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Warband is not "Paper rock scissors" game,but some weapon can have some advantage against some class,or in some special situations.Yeah,2h is the most defenceless class,but it doesnt mean the most hard class,they are very good in melee.They are good in duels and perfect in group battles like 5v5.Actually MnB never supposed to have ''2h class",there is "infantry class"-shielder with secondary weapon like 2h,polearm or throwing weapon.And no,2h dont take the most skill,shielders have their own disadvantages,usually slow block speed/weak shield and low damage.Ive tryed to play as a shielder and as  2h,so I know what I am talking about.And yes,I see an army of heavy armored 2hers with german greatswords.
  My personal thoughts about hybrid system.I love it,because this system worked from the first versions of MnB,you are not just some ''tank class'' from stupid mrpg,you are true soldier.Ranged spam happens not because people can put few points in bow,it happens because the repair prices are too low,one of my char have 40k,another one 75k.

I agree it shouldn't be "rock paper scissors", but idiots always try to use the range>2h>shield argument and it's just fucking moronic.
1h+shield is just in good in melee as 2h, if not better, especially in cRPG where the 1h weapons are even better and longer than the Native versions. When a good 1h'er hits me, even in plate, I lose roughly half my HP.

Offline Noble Crassius

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Re: Pew! Pew! Pew!
« Reply #44 on: April 09, 2011, 11:20:23 pm »
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I agree it shouldn't be "rock paper scissors", but idiots always try to use the range>2h>shield argument and it's just fucking moronic.
1h+shield is just in good in melee as 2h, if not better, especially in cRPG where the 1h weapons are even better and longer than the Native versions. When a good 1h'er hits me, even in plate, I lose roughly half my HP.
I like this guy he writes TRUTH. Anyone who thinks 1h plus shield is a gimped class don't know squat.

What credibility do I have you ask? 10 gens as a shielder since before ze patch is what, suck it.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2011, 11:24:53 pm by Noble Crassius »
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