Meet the Archer and Crossbowwoman!

[Elerion]

So "This raw data and math is shit.  Instead you should use this anecdotal evidence to base claims by."
 

As has been stated a gazillion times, and again by Fasader above, the number of kills by any given weapon is a meaningless statistic without knowing how many people use that weapon in a dedicated fashion.

If 10% of players are dedicated crossbowers, 4% of kills indicates crossbows are underpowered. If 1% of players are dedicated crossbowers, 4% of kills indicates crossbows are overpowered. Unless we know how many people are crossbowers, two diametrically opposite conclusions can be drawn from the same statistics.

[Rumblood]

As has been stated a gazillion times, and again by Fasader above, the number of kills by any given weapon is a meaningless statistic without knowing how many people use that weapon in a dedicated fashion.

If 10% of players are dedicated crossbowers, 4% of kills indicates crossbows are underpowered. If 1% of players are dedicated crossbowers, 4% of kills indicates crossbows are overpowered. Unless we know how many people are crossbowers, two diametrically opposite conclusions can be drawn from the same statistics.

This isn't right either. A more accurate assessment would compare damage output per weapon on the field.

[Gorath]

As has been stated a gazillion times, and again by Fasader above, the number of kills by any given weapon is a meaningless statistic without knowing how many people use that weapon in a dedicated fashion.

If 10% of players are dedicated crossbowers, 4% of kills indicates crossbows are underpowered. If 1% of players are dedicated crossbowers, 4% of kills indicates crossbows are overpowered. Unless we know how many people are crossbowers, two diametrically opposite conclusions can be drawn from the same statistics.

But apparently EVERYONE IS AN XBOW USER!  So wouldn't this mean that xbows are VASTLY underpowered?
 

[Tears of Destiny]

But apparently EVERYONE IS AN XBOW USER!  So wouldn't this mean that xbows are VASTLY underpowered?
 

I blame the billion 1 wpf lunatics using it as a pistol.   

[Elerion]

This isn't right either. A more accurate assessment would compare damage output per weapon on the field.

I never said it was accurate. That's why I chose extreme examples. Also, the point was not to present an accurate formula for determining weapon balance, the point was to highlight how utterly meaningless "% of kills" stats are without knowing the other variables.

Damage output isn't logged by the server, afaik.

[Jambi]

What do you mean by dedicated, I guess? My favorite archer build is 18/18, favoring a smaller, faster firing bow, having 6 points in Powerdraw, Athletics, Weapon Master, and Power Strike and the remainder in IF or whatever, putting all prof into archery. Fast firing, decently hard hitting, 1 slot bow + 2 quivers + 1slot (I preferred 1hand iberian mace) melee = viable at range against light to high medium armor wearers, viable in melee with 6ps and blunt.

Thing is, your not a dedicated archer.... your a hybrid with that build. Ofcourse you can try find workarounds etc.... but all solutions round down in not being a true archer anymore.
Ive played with the 18/18 build, used a LM and MW Hornbow. I think it is a very OP build.
Lately with the upkeep changes, where the chance for a weapon to break faster if you have no wpf for it.... archer hybrid build seem kinda agaisnt the system. If you know what i mean.

You pay shit tons for your bow/arrows, and ontop of that shit tons for your weapon also sicne you got no wpf. The 18/18 is a money sink hybrid build.

I personally think it would be nice, if xbows had a PD requirement, or a more suitable skillname requirement.

[Spawny]

I personally think it would be nice, if xbows had a PD requirement, or a more suitable skillname requirement.

Would be awesome if PD became a requirement for xbows. 5 PD is what... +40% damage?

[Jambi]

Would be awesome if PD became a requirement for xbows. 5 PD is what... +40% damage?

Without the extra damage added ofcourse for xbows 

I dont know for archers, i thoguht it was 8% for each PD.... but archers have been changed many times.. i lost track.

[Chudleague]

I'm not a professional archer and so will not claim to be. I do, however, have a recurve bow that is for fun target shooting in my yard. The thing is just a measly 30 lb drawback weight and the arrows are tipped with target points, not "broadhead" razor tips for hunting.

I have never killed anything with my bow but I'm pretty damn sure that if I shot a human, in street clothes, the arrow would pierce flesh and destroy any organ it hit. The man might not die instantly, unless it was to the heart, but he sure as hell would die if he didn't receive MODERN surgical medical treatment.

I know for a fact that my arrow would pierce a quarter inch piece of leather and hit hay on the other side. Id like to say that it might go through some thin metal like tin roofing but I have never personally tried that because its dangerous

This is real personal experience with a wimpy 30 lb draw.

I hit a nekkid guy in crpg today with a longbow, historically they wear easily over 100 lbs draw weights, and the person didn't die. Not only did the arrow not go clean through him and leave him clutching a hole through his body but he continued to run another 30 feet to slash me with a sword.

If you want to talk about realism, talk about realism, don't make shit up.

I fully support that archers should have to dedicate their build to master archery where crossbows do not; because its realistic.
I like that crossbowmen have faster missile speeds for that is realistic.
I even like the fact that crossbows do more damage vs heavier armor, for that is still realistic.

What Id like to see is that archers draw time decreased, but their reticle hold time also severely shortened. (Your not gonna hold a 100+ draw bow back for long) This would be realistic.
Id also like to see archers get an accuracy buff, shooting bows is not a hard skill to master. It was the strength to draw back the crazy heavy bows that took years of dedication. Realistic.
Id also like Archery to get a missile speed increase as I feel the arrows drop unrealistically fast, we need them to be very close to crossbows arcs.
Id also like the bows damage to be buffed to be only slightly lower than crossbows vs lighter armor.
Versus higher armor, say 50-55ish, the  current disparity is okay. I feel most arrows would bounce off plate armor unless it found a seam/niche that took all its force or a joint that was only chain mail. But I might be wrong about this part but I'm speaking from personal experience and I've never shot a 100+ lb bow.

This seems like it would eliminate crossbows but really it would just lower the number of pure crossbowmen because melee classes could and would still pick one up to deal with ranged because they need need 0 skill to shoot it on an equal level with what pure archer builds have now. Which again is realistic and what actually happened back then.

What I actually see happening:
Archers loved to shoot, now they are gimp, no more fun.
They switch to pure crossbowmen.
Now there are few archers left and everyone is crossbow.
Crossbowmen do more ranged damage and are more accurate, and are not free kills in melee.
Melee QQ'ers are gonna QQ.
"He hit me with xbow for 60% and then hit with 2 hand 1 slot mace for 25%, knockdown, and hit me on the ground. WTF OMG!!!11one"
Xbows get nerfed to gimp town. Now population: 2

[tankmen]

thats how the system works tho, cry enough things get nerf even if they are fair then when they are nerfed from there balanced state, something becomes OP/better by far, take cav for example  ,i mean that with the angle xbows and archers can jump around our horse n kill us easier. na jk its still fun killing on cav, so many people think that angle nerf boned us, and it just seems to make people aim for me not my horse idk why but i am still killing in face to face fights by that i mean ground to my horse combat where im not back stabbing but instead lancing to his face

[Tears of Destiny]

I dont know for archers, i thoguht it was 8% for each PD.... but archers have been changed many times.. i lost track.

8% PS, 10% PT, 14% PD.

[Bobthehero]

8% PS, 10% PT, 14% PD.

Yep, but I though the dev messed up with these values at one point?

[Tears of Destiny]

Yep, but I though the dev messed up with these values at one point?

Supposedly those are the numbers in effect now. I dunno about anything in the past.

[Bobthehero]

Those numbers are Native values.

[Fasader]

I personally think it would be nice, if xbows had a PD requirement, or a more suitable skillname requirement.

Maybe add the swagger. Ah yes, also damage dependency on wpf, <skillname> and strength.