cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Paul on June 08, 2011, 09:44:24 pm

Title: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Paul on June 08, 2011, 09:44:24 pm
For the last 4 days either cRPG1 or cRPG4 had been running with the new armor soak&reduce values I suggested here (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,7351.0.html). I don't exactly remember which of the two server it was but I'll find out later. This poll is to determine if the players felt a difference such as less undeserved glances.

The watered-down version of the soak nerf and reduce buffed was tested. Theoretical outcome should be that it is easier to prevent glancing blows against armor on "good" hits - even with weaker weapons. "Bad" hits such as hits outside the weapon sweetspots or with a bad speed bonus should still glance. Furthermore it should be harder to one or two hit people in heavy armor because the reduce buff should result in lowered damage that got past the soak.

Original (Native) values:
armor_soak_factor_against_cut       = 0.8
armor_soak_factor_against_pierce    = 0.65
armor_soak_factor_against_blunt     = 0.5

armor_reduction_factor_against_cut       = 1.0
armor_reduction_factor_against_pierce    = 0.5
armor_reduction_factor_against_blunt     = 0.75

Tested new values:

armor_soak_factor_against_cut       = 0.65
armor_soak_factor_against_pierce    = 0.5
armor_soak_factor_against_blunt     = 0.4

armor_reduction_factor_against_cut       = 1.6
armor_reduction_factor_against_pierce    = 1.1
armor_reduction_factor_against_blunt     = 1.3


We also checked if there was any significant impact on the kill statistics based on weapon type but there was none.

UPDATE: We found out which server was the one with the altered soak/reduce values. It was cRPG1. The values are still used there for the time being.
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Tzar on June 08, 2011, 09:52:53 pm
Any update on Strategus paul or are you just in charge of random items nerf :?:  :mrgreen:

Anyways how would we know if we felt a diffrence when you dont know wich server you used the test on  :?:

To tell you what i experienced i haven't felt any change High PS users still hit like a truck and low PS users.. fuck up their spam and die nothing new  :lol:

The values you showed are interesting and looks like a good change

Maybe its because i only been playing on the duel server and pecores and shogunate jojo servers and only a few times on EU1
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Punisher on June 08, 2011, 10:05:36 pm
Don't know if this was the best time to test it since official servers often get locked by the incorect authorization key bug and most people play on Pecores these days. Personally I never played on EU4 nor ever saw anyone playing there, so I can only compare EU1 to Pecores (native values). Only significant difference I noticed was pierce damage being more effective. Bounces were indeed removed, even when watching low ps archers fighting people in heavy armor I rarely saw one. Otherwise it's mostly the same, probably due to the randomness that can't be removed without WSE. A slight over the board pierce damage nerf should be enough to compensate the changes.
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Tears of Destiny on June 08, 2011, 10:12:09 pm
I only noticed a slight difference and chalked it up to my computer messing with me or luck, so I voted no difference as I still don't know if it was the new changes or me backwards rationalizing what I saw.
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: ShinySpoons on June 09, 2011, 04:15:34 am
Lol, ninja beta test. Giving people less opportunity to whineXD
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: DrKronic on June 09, 2011, 09:16:13 am
if any server I was on had different values I couldn't tell
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: ThePoopy on June 09, 2011, 03:36:23 pm
when i think about it ive noticed that early hits glance more and i can take a bit more arrows, havnt noticed dmg dif from melee weps tho
played on eu_1

havnt played in a week, so it might just be immagination
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Punisher on June 09, 2011, 03:44:30 pm
when i think about it ive noticed that early hits glance more and i can take a bit more arrows, havnt noticed dmg dif from melee weps tho
played on eu_1

havnt played in a week, so it might just be immagination

It's only been live for the last 4 days so it is your imagination.
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: ThePoopy on June 09, 2011, 04:09:29 pm
It's only been live for the last 4 days so it is your imagination.
played today
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: MrShine on June 09, 2011, 05:39:39 pm
I don't think you're going to get conclusive findings from this poll; glances are the sort of thing that people only remember when they are the one who glance, and with the minor tweaks I doubt it will 'feel' much different to players. 

Not saying that the changes *should* be dramatic or anything, but I think the poll will be very scattered.
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Phew on June 09, 2011, 09:08:41 pm
All I can say is that when I sneak up on some archer from behind and hit them with my Powerful Great Long Bardiche (48 cut dmg) with Power Strike 10, and they don't die, but instead whip out some 0-slot weapon and spam me to death, I rage a fit.

10 PS+expensive, unbalanced weapon against light armor (studded or below), should be a 1-hit kill ALWAYS. If it's going to take 2 swings, why should I even bother with all of the drawbacks of using an unbalanced weapon? I should just bring a great sword like everyone else.
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Tears of Destiny on June 09, 2011, 09:14:04 pm
All I can say is that when I sneak up on some archer from behind and hit them with my Powerful Great Long Bardiche (48 cut dmg) with Power Strike 10, and they don't die, but instead whip out some 0-slot weapon and spam me to death, I rage a fit.

Those archers have 0 WPF and are spamming you? Unusual, but rage worthy. I suggest to one shot them while sneaking, you try overheads to the head, or at the very least make the very end of your weapon hit so the maximum amount of damage is transfered. I can one shot most archers with a standard German Poleaxe and 8 PS if I line up correctly.
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Phew on June 09, 2011, 09:49:22 pm
Those archers have 0 WPF and are spamming you? Unusual, but rage worthy.

Unbalanced weapons can't usually deliver a hit after they are used to block (at least not in time before you get struck again), so it's not rare for a skilled archer to just facehug me and kill me with some crappy peasant weapon, despite me sneaking up on them.

Overheads aren't reliable, since most archers are constantly moving between shots.

Then again, sometimes lady luck smiles, as I've one-shot people in plate right after they spawn as well. I bet they rage over that as much as I rage over being spammed to death by an archer with a peasant weapon.

Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Torp on June 10, 2011, 03:31:34 pm
blunt weaps have knocdown so i dont see the problem in a slight pierce dmg buff
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: v/onMega on June 10, 2011, 05:36:39 pm
By reading this I remember 2 exact  situations that made me think wtf was that.

Damage dealt by those specific hits isnt brutal, it was enough to interrupt my attack, always.

Now. Thinking that an actual shielder, or even worse, one of the skilled ones gets the same benefit i allrdy start puking.
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Matey on June 10, 2011, 07:09:03 pm
Test it in a duel server maybe?
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Konrax on June 10, 2011, 08:57:25 pm
Most of the weapons interrupting you even with lower powerstrike doesn't sound very appealing.

Your chances of having your attack interrupted already in large fights is high enough, light damage class weapons should bounce off your plate armour.
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: ThePoopy on June 10, 2011, 09:01:27 pm
the part where a tincan can be bounced around like a wolleyball betwean 3 peasants with staffs until he dies is really stupid, or?
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Konrax on June 10, 2011, 09:28:08 pm
This is a nerf to the reason why you wear plate to be honest.
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: ThePoopy on June 10, 2011, 09:29:08 pm
This is a nerf to the reason why you wear plate to be honest.
becouse im rich?
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Tzar on June 10, 2011, 09:35:03 pm
Ill gladly trade being tossed around by a bunch of agi stacking racist frenchmans then being 1-2 hit by some random STR stacker....

But  yeah in the end Paul should have kept the glance and bounce the way it is and reduce the dmg u get from High PS users so wearing plate meant something rather then looks and being a money sink.. one can dream cant he??  :cry:
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: EyeBeat on June 10, 2011, 10:24:57 pm
I am all about less glancing blows.  I hope it works its way into NA!
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Digglez on June 10, 2011, 10:56:21 pm
This is a nerf to the reason why you wear plate to be honest.

Why not have ironflesh give your armor more dmg absorb instead of extra hp?

This would make sense so we could eventually have a 3rd stat, constitution which does add HP instead of STR, which is silly.
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Brutal on June 11, 2011, 10:05:01 am
the part where a tincan can be bounced around like a wolleyball betwean 3 peasants with staffs until he dies is really stupid, or?

But you've to understand Paul kept glancing with his 0 PS build, something had to be done !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!
!
!
!
!
Derp
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Assarhaddon on June 11, 2011, 02:30:05 pm
The results seem odd.
Well not the poll, i too voted same way as over 50% people.


But the armor soak/reduction values.
Using my heavy armor, i get body armor over 70. (Top loomed armor + gloves give 86 protection, not sure does anyone have that?)
And yet i dont see any significance difference between heavy, medium or light armors. (Except heavy armor makes you really, really slow and more prone to get hit)

2h will kill me in 2 - 3 hits no matter what the armor is. Difference is with light armor i can run faster and dodge easier. So actually i survive longer in light armors.
As for archers, yes the heavy armor takes few more arrows but at the same time it lowers your changes to dodge, resulting in those very same extra few hits.
1h shielders do seem to be killing me more than usually, wonder if thats the result of glance been lowered/removed?
All in all, heavy armor is just not worth the 1000 - 1700 gold repair costs.


So this testing with armor values is extreme good thing.
Hope to see more distinguishable difference between heavy to light armors. (Other than the running/moving speed)


ps. Not sure whats the public opinion is but: Over 50 heavy, 49 - 35 medium, under 34 light. Or somewhere in those lines..

Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Sir_Ironlake on June 11, 2011, 03:48:50 pm
Cant say bout the servers, but...


reducing glancing helps 1h v 2h a lot, since most of the times a (decent) 1h dies to 2h is after glancing, and it happens a lot... many of my fights look like this:

i hit (enemy alive)
* many blocks from both
i hit (enemy alive)
*
i hit (enemy alive)
*
i glance - enemy 1 shots me
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: IceManX on June 11, 2011, 03:52:55 pm
Armor has no difference anymore...
Heavy Armor, death in 2-3 hits. Medium and Low Armor the same.
But it costs more, and slows you more down.

I underrated some guys in melee the last days, it result in a death for me.
One Guy in Peasant Cloths killed me with a wodden sword in 3 hits. I didnt even noticed him rly. The hits didnt make a great sound or something like other hits. I saw 3 hits and I was dead... should have blocked him but I underrated him.
Same with Archers, they pull out their little Maces/Picks and kill you in 3 hits also.

I will use leather Boots, Leather Gloves, Kuyak and a helmet with around 30 Armor now.
Its cheap, I am fast, and I stay alive as long as a in heavy gear.

1handers are more difficult to fight then ever. you see the swing rly late, and he hits you with 2-3 hits to death.
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: NEWACE on June 11, 2011, 04:00:13 pm
ops
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Tzar on June 11, 2011, 04:09:20 pm
Im gonna keep my Reinforced Heraldic Transitional Armour and even loom it to lordly after retire no matter how useless it might be i still prefer too look like a knight rather then some savage or low tier infantry unit.

That said i still think Heavy armor needs a reduction in price since its rly unbalanced compared in price with the medium to low tier armors who provide the same protection.

Its kinda stupid we are forced to pay for looks...

With this patch/change there will no longer be any reason to wear high teir armor besides looks thus a price nerf is in place if you ask me.

I could say the same about high tier horses compared to medium tier horses the courser the Arab warhorse its the same story rly you pay a shitload of gold to become slow and zerged by ligther horses... its sorta silly lmao what some of us dont do to look awesome  :P
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Tears of Destiny on June 11, 2011, 04:30:56 pm
Im gonna keep my Reinforced Heraldic Transitional Armour and even loom it to lordly after retire no matter how useless it might be i still prefer too look like a knight rather then some savage or low tier infantry unit.

That said i still think Heavy armor needs a reduction in price since its rly unbalanced compared in price with the medium to low tier armors who provide the same protection.

Its kinda stupid we are forced to pay for looks

I disagree. Several of my clan members were talking about the cost of their sustainable loadouts were, and I tried the same with one of my alts. Using a German Poleaxe is expensive, so I assumed that I would have little room for proper armor... Boy was I wrong! I am still making money even without playing with my clan and with normal modifiers, and I now have a Barbutte Helmet, Wisby Gauntlets, Coat of black plates and some decent boots. One of my other alts I even ramped it up and am sustaining even with an upgrade to a Great Helm with Hat and Transitional Armor, not exactly cheap.

Either way I am using top quality armor and sustaining it, so I am ok with "the best" actually draining funds (all that plate stuff like milanese).
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Dan lol on June 11, 2011, 05:21:06 pm
No glances huh? If this makes its way to NA I am going agi polearm and stunlocking errbody with a quarterstaff

BRILLIANT
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Torp on June 11, 2011, 05:27:50 pm
No glances huh? If this makes its way to NA I am going agi polearm and stunlocking errbody with a quarterstaff

BRILLIANT

you can also do that without changes...
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Tears of Destiny on June 11, 2011, 05:44:11 pm
you can also do that without changes...

Yup, guy on NA siege doing it every day it seems, forget his name, but it works even against me in 60+ armor moving with the blows instead of against them. Rather effective, until someome breathes too hard in his direction.
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Torp on June 11, 2011, 06:56:47 pm
Yup, guy on NA siege doing it every day it seems, forget his name, but it works even against me in 60+ armor moving with the blows instead of against them. Rather effective, until someome breathes too hard in his direction.

I sometimes take out my quarterstaff and chill around.. it works just fine.

Also took a whole gen with quarterstaff back in my time as a ninja
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Banok on August 09, 2011, 05:47:14 pm

are reduced values running in current version?
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Diomedes on August 09, 2011, 06:19:05 pm
I found my 1h attacks less effective against heavily armoured folks but felt happily compensated, at the time, by my more assured chance to stun.  Where I see an issue is in the greater opportunity for polestun because of the reduced chance to glance.  Long-term, this may cause more folks to gravitate towards weapons like the bec. 


I did find it frustrating, once, when an armoured guy took 5 hits, including 2 stabs, from my MW Italian Sword with 8 powerstrike.  Though it may have just been Serge...
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Phew on August 09, 2011, 06:47:46 pm
I exclusively use a Mighty Great Long Bardiche (49 cut), and I have 9 Power Strike this gen. Several times recently, I've hit naked/cloth people in the chest and they've survived. These aren't glances, the guy is right in front of me and it's a clean strike. Is there a bug in the new soak calcs that makes this possible?

If huge, slow weapons like the GLB can't one-shot even naked people anymore, I should just use a Bec (like every other pole user now) and reliably 2-shot everyone.

Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Baggy on August 09, 2011, 07:38:32 pm
I exclusively use a Mighty Great Long Bardiche (49 cut), and I have 9 Power Strike this gen. Several times recently, I've hit naked/cloth people in the chest and they've survived. These aren't glances, the guy is right in front of me and it's a clean strike. Is there a bug in the new soak calcs that makes this possible?

If huge, slow weapons like the GLB can't one-shot even naked people anymore, I should just use a Bec (like every other pole user now) and reliably 2-shot everyone.


Maybe they have 10 or so IF and are fucking around.
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Diomedes on August 09, 2011, 08:11:32 pm
Maybe they have 10 or so IF and are fucking around.

http://infinitum.dyndns.org/crpg/calc.htm

He'd still be doing about 93 damage, 8 more points than 10 IF gives.
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Keshian on August 09, 2011, 08:17:44 pm
http://infinitum.dyndns.org/crpg/calc.htm

He'd still be doing about 93 damage, 8 more points than 10 IF gives.

That can't be right.  8%*9 = 72% bonus, 72% of 49 is 36 so 36+49= 85 MAXIMUM damage with naked person.  Lot of almost pure strength builds out there that have equal to or greater than 85 hitpoints. (10 ironflesh +30 str +35 base = 85)
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Baggy on August 09, 2011, 08:20:22 pm
That can't be right.  8%*9 = 72% bonus, 72% of 49 is 36 so 36+49= 85 MAXIMUM damage with naked person.  Lot of almost pure strength builds out there that have equal to or greater than 85 hitpoints. (10 ironflesh +30 str +35 base = 85)
SO if he didnt have a speed bonus or got a - speed bonus or a bad hit he wouldnt kill them.
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Digglez on August 09, 2011, 09:00:08 pm
http://infinitum.dyndns.org/crpg/calc.htm

Thats outdated and uses old armor values.  Someone posted an updated excel spreadsheet with new armor values that works well.
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Thucydides on August 09, 2011, 09:28:15 pm
All I can say is that when I sneak up on some archer from behind and hit them with my Powerful Great Long Bardiche (48 cut dmg) with Power Strike 10, and they don't die, but instead whip out some 0-slot weapon and spam me to death, I rage a fit.

10 PS+expensive, unbalanced weapon against light armor (studded or below), should be a 1-hit kill ALWAYS. If it's going to take 2 swings, why should I even bother with all of the drawbacks of using an unbalanced weapon? I should just bring a great sword like everyone else.

should not be the case, hold your attack for .5 seconds to recieve 1.5X increase in damage

using this tactic i one shot every archer with only 6 ps
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 09, 2011, 09:32:38 pm
0.6 seconds is the sweet spot actually, but yes good advice.
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Lichen on August 09, 2011, 11:13:28 pm
the part where a tincan can be bounced around like a wolleyball betwean 3 peasants with staffs until he dies is really stupid, or?
That's basically what often happens now although admittedly not often just peasants but still..... Basically it's now like a 'vortex of death' if a guy in plate gets ganged up on. Much of the time he's just stunned till he dies through attrition. Very low ability to fight back once you're outnumbered and chain stunned. Another poster in another thread mentioned it makes fights less epic now and I totally agree. Pretty much negates one of the biggest pluses of having heavy armor.

Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: MrShine on August 10, 2011, 05:45:34 am
That's basically what often happens now although admittedly not often just peasants but still..... Basically it's now like a 'vortex of death' if a guy in plate gets ganged up on. Much of the time he's just stunned till he dies through attrition. Very low ability to fight back once you're outnumbered and chain stunned. Another poster in another thread mentioned it makes fights less epic now and I totally agree. Pretty much negates one of the biggest pluses of having heavy armor.

Personally I don't find anything epic about someone winning because a clean shot bounced off their armor and they were able to land a full hit on the enemy.

I love that glances have been greatly reduced in favor of more light stumbles... although cut damage really took a beating against armor in general now.
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Gorath on August 10, 2011, 06:03:35 am
Personally I don't find anything epic about someone winning because a clean shot bounced off their armor and they were able to land a full hit on the enemy.

I love that glances have been greatly reduced in favor of more light stumbles... although cut damage really took a beating against armor in general now.

^
This.

Makes heavy armor balanced and not nearly as much of the lame crutch it used to be.
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Lichen on August 10, 2011, 06:13:23 am
Personally I don't find anything epic about someone winning because a clean shot bounced off their armor and they were able to land a full hit on the enemy.

I love that glances have been greatly reduced in favor of more light stumbles... although cut damage really took a beating against armor in general now.
That's what I'm talking about is the stumbling/staggering. I see these tincans getting 'staggered' to death a lot which seems pretty stupid when considering a main purpose of wearing heavy armor.
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: MrShine on August 10, 2011, 06:16:31 am
That's what I'm talking about is the stumbling/staggering. I see these tincans getting 'staggered' to death a lot which seems pretty stupid when considering a main purpose of wearing heavy armor.

Then they shouldn't be getting themselves surrounded by 3 people.  If you're that badly out-positioned against people that know how to surround you shouldn't expect armor to save you.

Heavy armor still helps a bunch.  I've seen some people last a crazy long time against cut weapons.  It's by no means useless.
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Gorath on August 10, 2011, 06:17:30 am
That's what I'm talking about is the stumbling/staggering. I see these tincans getting 'staggered' to death a lot which seems pretty stupid when considering a main purpose of wearing heavy armor.

It didn't make you invicible and a mob of people would still subdue and kill you.  Since we have no "subdue" feature (dragging you off your horse, or to the ground if on foot and then mobbing you to death while you're pinned) the stagger feature works nicely.
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Diomedes on August 10, 2011, 06:49:25 am
That can't be right.  8%*9 = 72% bonus, 72% of 49 is 36 so 36+49= 85 MAXIMUM damage with naked person.  Lot of almost pure strength builds out there that have equal to or greater than 85 hitpoints. (10 ironflesh +30 str +35 base = 85)

I used the calculator website and assumed 125 wpf too.
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Ujin on August 10, 2011, 10:41:01 am
I like the new soak values, both as an ex-mw (47cut if im correct) nodachi wielder and as a 8 ps byzantium 1hander/lancer. And i actually like that now you have to hit most people more than 1-2 times to kill someone.
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: rustyspoon on August 10, 2011, 11:05:00 am
Despite the fact that it takes me more hits to kill someone; it makes my life WAY better as a 1-hander. No more bouncing off some jackasses heirloomed plate.
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Tomas on August 10, 2011, 12:14:28 pm
Are there seperate Soak and Reduction values for different Armour types or is it just the 1 set of values for all armour?
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Vibe on August 10, 2011, 12:17:21 pm
Are there seperate Soak and Reduction values for different Armour types or is it just the 1 set of values for all armour?

I don't think there are different armour types even, only armour value.
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Karmazyn on August 15, 2011, 07:20:13 am
*
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Paul on August 15, 2011, 09:51:47 am
No, it's awesome.
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Digglez on August 15, 2011, 11:08:03 am
Its a fail. Another step towards items over skill, why the cut value need to be 1.6 and not lower, who knowns.

omg you mean a reason to use shorter different damage weapons?!
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: Thucydides on August 15, 2011, 11:29:04 am
omg you mean a reason to use shorter different damage weapons?!

you mean yet another reason why the bec is overused?
Title: Re: Feedback new soak/reduce values
Post by: ThePoopy on August 15, 2011, 06:53:14 pm
"Bad" hits such as hits outside the weapon sweetspots or with a bad speed bonus should still glance.
When will this part be added?