I am reluctant to agree on this since it involves some major nerfing and changing of game mechanics.
First heavy armor, it is kept in place by the upkeep and not really a problem, and except people with full strenght builds in lordly plates anyone with a balanced build and decent weapon can take down an enemy with ~60 armor in 3-4 hits. After the january patch, I have yet to see those tincans who go tearing through enemies surving dozens of hits so I don't really understand why an armor nerf is in order.
Second, any strenght oriented build will be heavily nerfed. With power strike being a lot less important, going higher than 5 or 6 would be pretty pointless since stacking agility would bring much more benefits. I can imagine the current situation reversed, with most people going for agility builds and wearing light-medium armor. Also ironflesh would be even more useless, hitting strenght/balanced builds further.
Ranged and especially archers will be heavily buffed. With reduced soak, they will also be encouraged to go for agility builds, since 4-5 power draw would be more then enough if you can just stagger everyone to death using a fast bow, like the khergit or strongbow and agility would offer better accuracy and speed.
1h+shield will be heavily buffed as well since with powerstrike being less important they will be able to stack agility and outspam their way to victory.
The hardest hit by this change would be 2h,polearms and cav. 2h/polearms will go for agility stacking as well but in melee combat 1h+shield will generally have the upper hand due to nerfed armors and significantly faster weapons. Both 2h/polearms and cav will be a lot more vulnerable to ranged.
To try balancing it
- damage on all melee weapons will need to be nerfed to make up for the lower powerstrike impact and avoid only agility builds being viable
- archery will need to be reworked, either by lowering bow damage - a significant damage nerf would be required to make up for the soak nerf and force archers to invest in power draw, or by severely nerfing accuracy so it requires more WPF, keeping high agility builds in order
- 1h weapons will need further nerfing after the overall melee weapon damage nerf, either lower damage or lower speed in comparison to 2h/polearms since damage being less important will provide a significant indirect buff for them
- all pierce damage weapons will need further nerfing to make up for the soak reduction
Also a full stat and heirloom respec (is that even possible since the market was implemented?) would be necessary considering the major changes.
I just think that the current situation is fine, just wait for WSE and take out the random used armor value calculation, it would fix most problems addresed without requiring complete rebalancing.
Since the game is now more balanced then ever and considering the long time it took for it to reach this balance, the advantages of implementing this don't seem to make for all the trouble it will cause. Rebalancing it from the start will be impossible and since I am not looking forward on more months of imbalanced weapons, nerfs and whining I voted on leaving it as it is, no need to fix something that's not broken.
I call it bs. Did you even read Urist's suggestion ? If so, you don't understand the game mechanic.
This change would not make number of hits required to take down something lower. It will increase number of hit required to take someone down.
High str are currently the way to go, changing it to make balanced build the best build is good move. Full agi will not dominate with the patch, full agi characters even currently hardly glance. Ironflesh will be just as useful as currently, maybe even better as more hits will be required to take people down.
Ranged will not be buffed, it won't one-shot people down like currently.
Powerstrike still will be very important for 1h, no change here.
Armor will be BUFFED, not nerfed. Just plate will be 'nerfed' indirectly as it will stop forcing people to glance off, all normal armor will be buffed. Cav will be hit just because their lances will not instant kill everyone, but it's good news actually. 2h and poles will be just as good as always.
I had the feeling with my numberous alts that powerstrike is too important. I find myself stacking it even with 0 melee wpf "pure" ranged builds. It's just so important to be able to interrupt someone in melee.
0 wpf is ok because the influence on damage is low and the speed loss can be compensated with personal skill. 0 PS is.. a challenge because one has to charge up every hit against a tin can and hope for a decent dice roll. I don't like the luck factor.
I had the feeling with my numberous alts that powerstrike is too important. I find myself stacking it even with 0 melee wpf "pure" ranged builds. It's just so important to be able to interrupt someone in melee.
0 wpf is ok because the influence on damage is low and the speed loss can be compensated with personal skill. 0 PS is.. a challenge because one has to charge up every hit against a tin can and hope for a decent dice roll.
I don't like the luck factor. It's ok for me if I need 8, 10 or 15 hits as long as I don't bounce of with hit number 7 on perfect range and sweetspot position just because of a high armor roll.
For Baldrider: The bad sweetspot glances will still happen. The penalty here is very big and still reduces the damage below the glance treshold. Good positioning and decent hit angles are still needed to overcome soak.
Wait, agility builds are considered as being overpowered at the moment?
The scoreboards and majority of the vocal player-base opinion say otherwise.The internet and sarcasm :(
I had the feeling with my numberous alts that powerstrike is too important. I find myself stacking it even with 0 melee wpf "pure" ranged builds. It's just so important to be able to interrupt someone in melee.
0 wpf is ok because the influence on damage is low and the speed loss can be compensated with personal skill. 0 PS is.. a challenge because one has to charge up every hit against a tin can and hope for a decent dice roll.
I don't like the luck factor. It's ok for me if I need 8, 10 or 15 hits as long as I don't bounce of with hit number 7 on perfect range and sweetspot position just because of a high armor roll.
For Baldrider: The bad sweetspot glances will still happen. The penalty here is very big and still reduces the damage below the glance treshold. Good positioning and decent hit angles are still needed to overcome soak.
The scoreboards and majority of the vocal player-base opinion say otherwise.Yep.
Yep.
Pure strength or mostly strength melee builds are the best at dueling, battle, and especially siege of all the characters.
I have to say 30-9 or the more extreme 36-3 are hands down the most effective duel & melee builds in game. It isn't like you can be spammed even with that little agi, you can't be outfootworked even with 1 ath either. Unless you are 1 ath full black armor like some idiot.
Balanced builds are nice and decent, but agi stackers are easy one hit kills. Agi builds I must say are the absolute worse since they gain nothing and glance alot and still take at the least 5 hits to kill me in light/medium armor if they don't.
I'm all for this armor change. I'll still be doing strength builds for dueling, this will hardly change how ridiculously good strength builds are. It will bring some balance to agi though, and I'm all for more characters being viable.
I've been playing around with instant level 30s all past 2 weeks, and I have gotten my highest KDR on 36-3 with both 2h or pole arm, both are close in effectiveness. Average match was at lowest 5 to 1 K-D, closer to 8-1.
I made a strength onehander that used a torch. I went 11-0 one map with a torch, and with a regular onehanded word? Oh my god ridiculous. I think using the torch I averaged 4-1 K/D.
I can't do that good on a super serious hoplite even.
I edited that post while you were replying if you would like to edit your quote.
I don't want to derail the topic, but 30-9 with: 10 PS, 7 IF, 3 ath, 3 WM; is way to good. Try it tears. You get 130 WPF so you aren't slow at all and can even get away with heavy armor.
Why do you say armor becomes useless?
Against weak attacks armor will be worse, against strong attacks armor will be better.
I don't want to derail the topic, but 30-9 with: 10 PS, 7 IF, 3 ath, 3 WM; is way to good. Try it tears. You get 130 WPF so you aren't slow at all and can even get away with heavy armor.
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Bouncing is one of my favourite features. Keeps stupid spammers in their place, else high agi 1hs would rule the world. And who wants that?
thats why I made this most excellent suggestion (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,4974.msg86635.html#msg86635), which when originally voiced on irc all the guys agreed with but when I posted here it got ignored and down voted cause most posters are stupid and don't like change.The difference of 111 wpf and 130 is what armor you can get away with. with 0 Wm you can't wear full plate, you'll be molasses. Unless you are wallace who does that exact thing, but he chambers when he attacks.
I'm making chars with 0 wm. Marathon your build would be better with 0 wm you would lose only 10 wpf but gain 3 points in iron flesh!
if you wanna know whats better between agi and str... consider that a 36/3 build is not only viable, but very dangerous... whereas a 3/36 build is comic relief only.
Tbh as a side effect xbows would get a small nerf with this change because over the top damage is lowered the most with the increased reduce. So let's say instead of 2 bolts a target might need 3 in some situations.
The other side effect is that low damage archers might be able to deal at least some damage more often as it is now becasue of the weakened soak.
A 6/33 build is lethal in the right hands. Where a 36/3 can just fight and hope he doesn't get overwhelmed, shot at, bumped or footwork/spammed out.a 6/33 can can be lethal, true, but it will die to 1 arrow. To 1 hit from any melee, and it still can't spam people. In a fight between two inexperienced players, it may have the advantage in a little spam fight, but it will still probably lose. A fight of experienced players? Very low chance of winning. Will require 8-12 hits to take down a strength build.
a 6/33 can can be lethal, true, but it will die to 1 arrow. To 1 hit from any melee, and it still can't spam people. In a fight between two inexperienced players, it may have the advantage in a little spam fight, but it will still probably lose. A fight of experienced players? Very low chance of winning.
a 36/3 is always lethal. He will oneshot every agi build and at most 2 shot every balanced build. He can not be spammed. Even with 1 ath he can not be outfootworked, assuming players of equal skill. He is not very slow with swings at all.
Come to NA duel server and watch strength builds instagib every pathetic agi build who think that you can spam. Assuming ones are on going 25-1 in there.
Alright, I'll go there with 240 Ping. I'll be there on some laggy character in a few days. It will take a few days to get a 36/3 character. Dueling across the seas doesn't work to well. But I will be there on some random name you've never heard of. I'll give results. And I'm only a decent player compared to the duelists in NA.
LOOL!!!!!! :lol:
Go to EU 3 duel server and get your ass kicked with that build dude your really full of it
1 ath can out foot work balanced builds??? lol what have u been smokin :lol:No, they just can't be Outfootworked. I didn't say they outfootwork others. Even with as little as 1 athletics, if you are aware of where the opponent is stepping you can not be outfootworked.
People with high AGI will allways be able to out swing and counter any slow ass str build out there.Not true. Completely false. I used to think that way too... Until I was shown repeatedly, time and time again as they top the score boards. They can even spam people who think it is impossible if they make a footwork error.
Also you can really only benefit from str builds if you have a shitload of team mates around you because your dead in most 1vs1 situations...No, They are really good in 1v1 situations. And even better in cluster fucks like a large battle or siege since they can take a beating.
Most people don't seem to understand. With my change tin cans will take MORE hits on average than it is now. It just makes "close eyes, swing wildly, hope that the opponent bounces" less likely to work.
Paul i just dont understand you it really makes no sense for this change besides if your a AGI stacker and dont wanna invest points in PS..
I think you are not fully understanding what Paul is trying to present here...
but ideally even a lvl 1 peasant with a wooden stick should be able to kill a lvl 30 in plate, it might have to take him 100 blows but now its impossible because of the bounce you just get spammed.
Why should a level 1 peasant with a wooden stick be able to kill a knight in plate? I see neither gameplay scenarios nor often scoffed upon ties to reality that could validate such a situation.Blunt trauma, I suppose if it was a rather large stick, made of oak or some such thing that is suitably dense, then the knight might crumple after being hit in the head enough (even counting padding). Kinetic shockwaves can do some damage (As some tests have proven by hitting a chestpiece filled with gelatin in slowmo with a large axe or mace)...
Plz dont change anything, plate got many malus right now, their price first. Dont add more.I don't think people are understanding what is being suggested. This isn't going to be a 'malus' at all. More attacks might hurt you, but they'd be doing less damage, so while you might not be able to stand and let 10 people with scimitars wail on you anymore, you might not get instagibbed by someone wielding a bec.
A peasant with a stick will most likely still bounce while a level 20 player will bounce less on a perfect attack. Attacks with bad sweetspot position will still bounce becasue of the hefty penalty they receive.
I don't think people are understanding what is being suggested. This isn't going to be a 'malus' at all. More attacks might hurt you, but they'd be doing less damage, so while you might not be able to stand and let 10 people with scimitars wail on you anymore, you might not get instagibbed by someone wielding a bec.
Paul i just dont understand you it really makes no sense for this change besides if your a AGI stacker and dont wanna invest points in PS.. or carry an anti armor weapon.. :?
And this would be an improvement how?
you might not get instagibbed by someone wielding a bec.When I'm wearing my platemail, if anyone with a blunt or piercing weapon so much as looks at me I go down so fast I might as well have been naked. I would gladly take some damage from cutting weapons in order to mitigate 1 and 2 hit deaths from becs and mauls.
Your resistance is futile, on next patch we're all getting Kinngrimmed. :wink:
Um, Tzar aren't you using plate armor and weapon with insane damage, and now you just defend your precious toys. There is no person less biased than you.
My troll bar is almost to -200 from trying to get the easy mode kdr booster xbow removed
If i wanted i could do as every1 else including my clan mates and former clan mates and carry one myself but im so sick of ranged spam that i wont even do it...
Im the least biased person in here like it or not your really just blind and don't see that Paul´s suggestion is an unneeded buff for AGI spammers / archers
All they have to do is carry a anti armor weapon......
My thoughts in this thread has nothing to do with my build in fact Paul´s suggestion would actually buff my armor meaning that i would be able to take more dmg....
All i see in hes suggestion and the reason for my complaint is that he wants low ps users / agi stackers to be able to use cut weapons as and jack of all trades weapon...
Plus hes suggestion would screw up basic game mechanics that involves if your have shit PS then your shouldn't be able to get 100% Guaranteed hits on high tier armor users with cut weapons
Get your head out of your ass plz
lol
people are going so overboard and not even listening to rational discussion now.
No, forcing people to take pick or hammer is not solution. I almost always outskill plate players, yet thanks to glancing i die against them. I already have to hit them up to 10 times to take them down with my 33c weapon.
There will be no 100% success ratio for cut weapons. 1h weapons will still glance often, just less often. There are jack of all trades weapons, those are called glavie, long hafted blade and anything with word greatsword. I feel that reducing their damage a bit would be warranted.
It's nerf for archers as they will need more hits to take you people down. Furthermore, if you haven't noticed yet, 90% of them already use three top tier bows that don't glance at all against my 48 body armor.
AGI spammers would need more hits to take down people, and i'm cool with it.
No, forcing people to take pick or hammer is not solution. I almost always outskill plate players, yet thanks to glancing i die against them. I already have to hit them up to 10 times to take them down with my 33c weapon.
There will be no 100% success ratio for cut weapons. 1h weapons will still glance often, just less often. There are jack of all trades weapons, those are called glavie, long hafted blade and anything with word greatsword. I feel that reducing their damage a bit would be warranted.
Tzar, your trolling sig gives u -points. -1 for everyone that you make touch their screen.
What exactly does 1 proficiency represent? Has your character never wielded a weapon before in his life? Is he some sort of spastic? It's really quite perplexing. Default proficiency (1) should represent a historical martial average in my opinion. Points investment should define a level of distinction in that area.
Maybe, if it isn't hardcoded (which I think it might be), change the soak slightly, then change how much armor pierce/blunt mitigates. This way you're not completely screwing with balance for every class and every weapon. Though I'm all for the initial proposition.
Considering that we start as peasants, 1 proficiency really does mean that the character has never had such a weapon in his hands ever.
It's a common misconception that peasants are physically weak, they're merely untrained, undisciplined and lacking in equipment. Give one a sword and he would be more than capable of injuring a knight in plate if said knight was too lazy to block. Which is what we are discussing here, the ability to injure, not ability in swordplay.
Then if people could hurt plate users even with very low strength, the game balance would go towards agi even more than it already is. Besides, peasants start at 3 strength, so they are physically weak in this game :lol:
Armor need to be more powerful.
At the moment it makes no difference for me wearing Transitional, Plate Mittens and so on.
I got killed in 1-3 hits.
If I am wearing a Kuyak and only leather items for other slots i got killed in 1-3 hits also.
Armor ist the most expensive Stuff ingame, it makes you slower and your WPF are decreased.
You have 4 Armor Slots and the gear can be expensive over 50k Gold only for your Armor.
In good old medieval an armor was the main important thing, it saved your life.
Only Longbows and Crossbows could dmg an heavy plate armor. The more you were away from them arrows didnt dmg it.
Same with Cutting Weapons, they didnt hurt Armors very well. A Sword became blunt dmg and could break your bones instead, but it didnt cut through the armor.
More Power, more soak and more dmg reduce for Armors!
It wouldn't be balanced. Do you want everyone running around in plate armor? Increase both soak and damage reduce more, and you might as well remove most cutting weapons. Perhaps they could still have their use as archer and peasant shankers though!...
Edit: This change will decrease the damage you take, meaning more hits before you go down, especially if you're wearing plate.
You won't have everyone running around in plate, because upkeep doesn't allow it.
If this buffs the ability to tank as a "plate noob" then do it. If it makes plate worse then its completly BS and only encorages more agility builds.
It wouldn't make plate worse. You just can't spam all day and hope everything glance off your plate. There will still be soak, and in order to actually do any notable damage to armor (which has increased damage reduce), you still need strenght and powerstrike.
I don't know where you got the information that currently, all you have to do is wear heavy plate and a considerable amount of hits will glance off.
I didn't say that a considerable amount of hits will definitely glance off. The point is, the random factor of glancing will be reduced, while the armor reduces more incoming damage. It's a good tradeoff that advocates more skill based gameplay.
I would say that "everything" is quite a considerable amount.
You also fail to explain how the change would lead to more skill based gameplay
Wait, agility builds are considered as being overpowered at the moment?
No, they suck. Buff.
There is an alternative solution suggested by Shik to lower the interupt threshhold to 0 so every hit no matter what would interrupt the tin can. Advantage here would be that the damage would stay the same. I don't like this much though because every hit interrupting would mean that spam with turning in attacks to the maximum would become viable. We had that in Native beta and I don't want that again.Indeed, please no.
most people actually wanted to buff armor since as it is now u can hardly feel the difference from wearing a sarranid guard armor to a Milanese plateHardly feel a difference?
Yup, with this I can do a 9/30 mw katana build without glancing, thx.
Edit: It would be cool to survive more hits with the robe :mrgreen:.
9:23 on one of my alts, i only glance if i do something stupid...
Overhead more god damn it.
Atm I am on a 15/22 (soon will be 24) build, and it rarely glances (except the thrust, it's pretty useless xD).
Naa, thrusts are the best attacks which you have.