wp_one_handed >= 50 AND power_strike > 0 THEN '1h'
shield >= 3 THEN 'shield'
wp_two_handed >= 50 AND power_strike > 0 THEN '2h'
wp_polearm >= 50 AND power_strike > 0 THEN 'pole'
wp_archery >= 50 AND power_draw > 0 THEN 'archer'
wp_crossbow >= 50 THEN 'xbow'
wp_throwing >= 50 AND power_throw > 0 THEN 'throwing'
riding >= 3 THEN 'cav'
horse_archery >= 1 THEN 'ha'
archer;;;;;archer;;;;;0;0;0;0;0;0;1;0;0
pole;;;pole;;;;;;;0;1;0;0;1;0;0;-1;-1
xbow;;;;;;xbow;;;;0;1;0;0;0;0;1;0;0
so throwers that vote buff throwing get no reward? :?
I went ahead and made that data more readable.I focused mainly on looking at the dedicated builds: 1h/shield, 2h,pole,archer,pole/cav,cav/ha.
If you wanna see the data, go to this Google doc: CLICK HERE FOR THE DATA (https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiLiPRCefe-NdHVLbTFMZDFqR19oN0lCbDBYQWhIbUE&hl=en_US&authkey=COmZ6KsJ)
=Dedicated polearms for example, there were 57 of them, 14 wanted to nerf horses while only two wanted to buff horses.
I'm about to puke from all the biased votes.
Haha, you're right. Like 80% or more of the votes for buffing cav came from cav players of various kinds (HA/polearmcav/1hcav, etc.). The other buff/nerfs are not so bad though with the self-help bias. You're right Tydeus, it definitely needs to be taken into consideration when they are looking at cav that almost all the people asking for a buff of cav were cav players, really shows how much results were skewed. Seems a lot of players are cav too or they are just more active in voting. I wonder if there is a way to remove all the votes to buff their own class could be taken out adn what the new results would show? Definitely cav would go from a buff to nerf almost instantly, but I wonder what would happen with the other categories as well.Well I wasn't exactly trying to pick on cavalry. I have something of a complicated view on horses so personally I chose to say that they shouldn't be changed.
Also, I saw a few with 7-8 votes nerfing and buffing everything, weren't those supposed to be weighted less??? Maybe we should just remove those in the calculations as well.
Not that this really matters, but some of those 'selfish' votes might not be as selfish as they originally look. A lot of people retire to completely new builds, and I'm guessing this recent data is only showing their most recent spec. I know that I voted in this thread when I was a 2-H, and I'm currently a 1-H/Shield.
So in reality many votes that might look selfish could have more context behind them.
(for the record I voted for cav and throwing buffs, the two classes I've never really played much)
Went in exel to put some order in that spreadsheet. Although i've just started, i'll finish tomorrow.
As for the Pure Archers, the only variable i've calculated as of now. (Out of 73 entries)
Horses: -13 (Want a Nerf 17.8%)
Armor: -3 (Want a Nerf 4%)
1h: 7 (Want a Buff 9.5%)
2h: -2 (Want a Nerf 2.7%)
pole: -12 (Want a Nerf 16.4%)
shield: -11 (Want a Nerf 15%)
thrown: 13 (Want a Buff 17.8%)
bow: 29 (Want a Buff 39.7%)
xbow: -12 (Want a Nerf 16.4%)
i was pure 2h while voting, now i am polearm, i voted to nerf polearms and i have to agree with that even more as i start getting high lvl :)) anyways, the 1hers mostly voted nerf 2h/poles, from the looks, and buff 1h, i guess a lot of people here have l2p issues :( good 1her is the only thing i fear now :D
I voted to keep everything thesame and could not change my vote to help the throwers out :(yeah me too.
I did a small program to get correlations between votes/classes and other vote/classes.
For example, you can ask me what is the % of archers asking for a buff of shields. Or the % of people that voted "buff armor" that are crossbow users. Or even what is the proportion of cav that use polearms.
EDIT : just for info :
Out of cav players that voted :
60% use polearms,
44% have a shield
38% use 1h
21% use 2h
16% are HA
13% use a bow
6% use a crossbow
2% use throwing weapons
(the sum is above 100% because many people are both HA and bow for example, or pole and shield)
EDIT 2 : I'm rereading the code for math bugs etc. It lacks any proper interface and such so I'm not publishing anything atm
1h 0 1.000 0.087 0.291 0.866 0.075 0.134 0.055 0.398 0.043 0.244 0.146 0.350 0.063 0.035 0.213 0.248 0.098 0.098
2h 1 0.074 1.000 0.087 0.130 0.057 0.117 0.067 0.191 0.017 0.181 0.177 0.151 0.271 0.050 0.087 0.237 0.104 0.080
pole 2 0.272 0.096 1.000 0.419 0.033 0.040 0.040 0.592 0.026 0.276 0.195 0.162 0.092 0.180 0.129 0.254 0.099 0.074
shield 3 0.791 0.140 0.410 1.000 0.025 0.104 0.050 0.428 0.025 0.230 0.147 0.335 0.068 0.054 0.209 0.263 0.083 0.097
archer 4 0.140 0.125 0.066 0.051 1.000 0.022 0.000 0.272 0.243 0.154 0.118 0.147 0.074 0.022 0.029 0.265 0.426 0.059
xbow 5 0.405 0.417 0.131 0.345 0.036 1.000 0.000 0.214 0.083 0.214 0.119 0.250 0.131 0.048 0.131 0.250 0.119 0.274
throwing 6 0.304 0.435 0.239 0.304 0.000 0.000 1.000 0.152 0.065 0.130 0.152 0.196 0.130 0.043 0.065 0.652 0.130 0.043
cav 7 0.381 0.215 0.608 0.449 0.140 0.068 0.026 1.000 0.162 0.385 0.204 0.208 0.098 0.106 0.106 0.238 0.162 0.075
ha 8 0.256 0.116 0.163 0.163 0.767 0.163 0.070 1.000 1.000 0.326 0.163 0.140 0.000 0.023 0.023 0.256 0.419 0.093
horseschange 9 0.321 0.365 0.379 0.332 0.162 0.112 0.054 0.415 0.054 0.581 0.235 0.274 0.181 0.141 0.170 0.253 0.166 0.130
armorchange 10 0.279 0.348 0.363 0.309 0.152 0.083 0.054 0.373 0.054 0.304 0.672 0.221 0.191 0.132 0.196 0.265 0.201 0.137
1hchange 11 0.399 0.346 0.294 0.434 0.114 0.110 0.053 0.316 0.031 0.285 0.215 0.724 0.158 0.127 0.285 0.259 0.167 0.118
2hchange 12 0.304 0.405 0.331 0.350 0.128 0.113 0.047 0.339 0.043 0.272 0.261 0.272 0.455 0.148 0.195 0.233 0.167 0.148
polechange 13 0.280 0.381 0.356 0.331 0.117 0.079 0.050 0.318 0.025 0.285 0.255 0.259 0.243 0.293 0.226 0.238 0.167 0.126
shieldchange 14 0.322 0.356 0.307 0.346 0.137 0.098 0.049 0.249 0.024 0.259 0.259 0.395 0.205 0.146 0.498 0.249 0.176 0.122
thrownchange 15 0.291 0.319 0.333 0.337 0.182 0.105 0.109 0.309 0.056 0.204 0.200 0.225 0.137 0.088 0.137 0.765 0.196 0.130
bowchange 16 0.252 0.335 0.306 0.273 0.269 0.095 0.062 0.364 0.083 0.252 0.227 0.236 0.169 0.128 0.186 0.248 0.479 0.120
xbowchange 17 0.285 0.355 0.346 0.332 0.173 0.136 0.037 0.327 0.037 0.276 0.257 0.262 0.201 0.164 0.178 0.234 0.196 0.336
Ok this is the output for buffing or being from both classes.Why do it like this? It makes it so you can't see how many 1h wanted to buff 1h, or how many 1h+shields, wanted to buff shields. Makes it rather useless imo.
Why do it like this? It makes it so you can't see how many 1h wanted to buff 1h, or how many 1h+shields, wanted to buff shields. Makes it rather useless imo.
horseschange armorchange 1hchange 2hchange polechange shieldchange thrownchange bowchange xbowchange
1h 0.2440944882 0.1456692913 0.3503937008 0.0629921260 0.0354330709 0.2125984252 0.2480314961 0.0984251969 0.0984251969
2h 0.1806020067 0.1772575251 0.1505016722 0.2709030100 0.0501672241 0.0869565217 0.2374581940 0.1036789298 0.0802675585
pole 0.2757352941 0.1948529412 0.1617647059 0.0919117647 0.1801470588 0.1286764706 0.2536764706 0.0992647059 0.0735294118
shield 0.2302158273 0.1474820144 0.3345323741 0.0683453237 0.0539568345 0.2086330935 0.2625899281 0.0827338129 0.0971223022
archer 0.1544117647 0.1176470588 0.1470588235 0.0735294118 0.0220588235 0.0294117647 0.2647058824 0.4264705882 0.0588235294
xbow 0.2142857143 0.1190476190 0.2500000000 0.1309523810 0.0476190476 0.1309523810 0.2500000000 0.1190476190 0.2738095238
throwing 0.1304347826 0.1521739130 0.1956521739 0.1304347826 0.0434782609 0.0652173913 0.6521739130 0.1304347826 0.0434782609
cav 0.3849056604 0.2037735849 0.2075471698 0.0981132075 0.1056603774 0.1056603774 0.2377358491 0.1622641509 0.0754716981
ha 0.3255813953 0.1627906977 0.1395348837 0.0000000000 0.0232558140 0.0232558140 0.2558139535 0.4186046512 0.0930232558 horseschange armorchange 1hchange 2hchange polechange shieldchange thrownchange bowchange xbowchange
1h 0.1062992126 0.0787401575 0.0078740157 0.2440944882 0.2283464567 0.0472440945 0.0787401575 0.1417322835 0.1417322835
2h 0.1571906355 0.0602006689 0.1137123746 0.0769230769 0.2541806020 0.1571906355 0.0668896321 0.1672240803 0.1739130435
pole 0.1102941176 0.0772058824 0.0845588235 0.2205882353 0.1323529412 0.1029411765 0.0955882353 0.1727941176 0.1985294118
shield 0.1007194245 0.0791366906 0.0215827338 0.2553956835 0.2302158273 0.0467625899 0.0827338129 0.1546762590 0.1582733813
archer 0.1764705882 0.1102941176 0.0441176471 0.1691176471 0.1838235294 0.1764705882 0.1176470588 0.0514705882 0.2132352941
xbow 0.1547619048 0.0833333333 0.0476190476 0.2142857143 0.1785714286 0.1071428571 0.1071428571 0.1547619048 0.0714285714
throwing 0.1956521739 0.0869565217 0.0652173913 0.1304347826 0.2173913043 0.1521739130 0.0217391304 0.1956521739 0.1304347826
cav 0.0490566038 0.0830188679 0.0641509434 0.2301886792 0.1811320755 0.0867924528 0.0943396226 0.1698113208 0.1886792453
ha 0.0232558140 0.0930232558 0.0232558140 0.2558139535 0.1162790698 0.0930232558 0.1162790698 0.0465116279 0.0930232558 Awesome Kafein.
I went ahead and made the spreadsheet now include better data. All Pure builds(aka no wpf in another weapon) are shown with that pure's total change! Hybrids are also organized on there too!
Pure sheet is on Sheet 3, hybrids on sheet 4(seperated by ranged/ non ranged)
Yo kafien, the numbers supposed to be greater than 100%?
Thanks Kafein. :) Yeh, thats actually interesting 1h, archery, and cav were by far the three highest in buffing their own class.
1h 2h pole shield archer xbow throwing cav ha
1h 1.0000000000 0.0866141732 0.2913385827 0.8661417323 0.0748031496 0.1338582677 0.0551181102 0.3976377953 0.0433070866
2h 0.0735785953 1.0000000000 0.0869565217 0.1304347826 0.0568561873 0.1170568562 0.0668896321 0.1906354515 0.0167224080
pole 0.2720588235 0.0955882353 1.0000000000 0.4191176471 0.0330882353 0.0404411765 0.0404411765 0.5919117647 0.0257352941
shield 0.7913669065 0.1402877698 0.4100719424 1.0000000000 0.0251798561 0.1043165468 0.0503597122 0.4280575540 0.0251798561
archer 0.1397058824 0.1250000000 0.0661764706 0.0514705882 1.0000000000 0.0220588235 0.0000000000 0.2720588235 0.2426470588
xbow 0.4047619048 0.4166666667 0.1309523810 0.3452380952 0.0357142857 1.0000000000 0.0000000000 0.2142857143 0.0833333333
throwing 0.3043478261 0.4347826087 0.2391304348 0.3043478261 0.0000000000 0.0000000000 1.0000000000 0.1521739130 0.0652173913
cav 0.3811320755 0.2150943396 0.6075471698 0.4490566038 0.1396226415 0.0679245283 0.0264150943 1.0000000000 0.1622641509
ha 0.2558139535 0.1162790698 0.1627906977 0.1627906977 0.7674418605 0.1627906977 0.0697674419 1.0000000000 1.0000000000
horseschange armorchange 1hchange 2hchange polechange shieldchange thrownchange bowchange xbowchange
horseschange 1.000000000000 0.260869565217 0.329192546584 0.186335403727 0.173913043478 0.186335403727 0.186335403727 0.198757763975 0.149068322981
armorchange 0.306569343066 1.000000000000 0.189781021898 0.218978102190 0.160583941606 0.204379562044 0.255474452555 0.175182481752 0.145985401460
1hchange 0.321212121212 0.157575757576 1.000000000000 0.066666666667 0.084848484848 0.381818181818 0.284848484848 0.181818181818 0.145454545455
2hchange 0.256410256410 0.256410256410 0.094017094017 1.000000000000 0.179487179487 0.094017094017 0.170940170940 0.119658119658 0.128205128205
polechange 0.400000000000 0.314285714286 0.200000000000 0.300000000000 1.000000000000 0.157142857143 0.157142857143 0.128571428571 0.128571428571
shieldchange 0.294117647059 0.274509803922 0.617647058824 0.107843137255 0.107843137255 1.000000000000 0.245098039216 0.166666666667 0.127450980392
thrownchange 0.137614678899 0.160550458716 0.215596330275 0.091743119266 0.050458715596 0.114678899083 1.000000000000 0.155963302752 0.119266055046
bowchange 0.275862068966 0.206896551724 0.258620689655 0.120689655172 0.077586206897 0.146551724138 0.293103448276 1.000000000000 0.137931034483
xbowchange 0.333333333333 0.277777777778 0.333333333333 0.208333333333 0.125000000000 0.180555555556 0.361111111111 0.222222222222 1.000000000000Detection magic pseudo code:Code: [Select]wp_one_handed >= 50 AND power_strike > 0 THEN '1h'
shield >= 3 THEN 'shield'
wp_two_handed >= 50 AND power_strike > 0 THEN '2h'
wp_polearm >= 50 AND power_strike > 0 THEN 'pole'
wp_archery >= 50 AND power_draw > 0 THEN 'archer'
wp_crossbow >= 50 THEN 'xbow'
wp_throwing >= 50 AND power_throw > 0 THEN 'throwing'
riding >= 3 THEN 'cav'
horse_archery >= 1 THEN 'ha'
Also nice job on the results so far Kafein, keep it coming!
The whole post of this proposal is that there are lots of items within each class, 1 or 2 items being really good does not make the class unbalanced. I think it could be a good community project, but a lot of work...
The main problem comes when people who are without the required competetive gaming experience and understanding of Mount & Blade comes around and spits out their opinions in fancy words.+1 for this, I was tempted to post something along these lines but then of course, I didn't. Figured I'd get -1 spammed to death for elitism.
Leave the balancing to players who know the mechanics, been playing the game on a high-end competetive basis and understand the impact of minor changes.
There is no worse way to balance a game than to listen to the cries of the masses.
The main problem comes when people who are without the required competetive gaming experience and understanding of Mount & Blade comes around and spits out their opinions in fancy words.
Leave the balancing to players who know the mechanics, been playing the game on a high-end competetive basis and understand the impact of minor changes.
There is no worse way to balance a game than to listen to the cries of the masses.
Well that would probably be better to balance the high tier competition. But there are several flaws :I've been a part of a lot of competitive games and communities, point 4 is never an issue and point 2 is just untrue.
1° Things that are imba on a given skill level maybe aren't on another and I think this mod ought to be balanced for a skill level a bit higher than what we have on average public servers.
2° There's no easy way to differenciate between biaised and unbiaised players, as well as experienced or not.
3° It might really piss off players. A game is for having fun afterall, and I'm sure no one would like to see it's prefered weapon nerfed because "a bunch of elites" decided it should be that way.
4° People playing on a competitive level have more info to make the good balance decisions, but they also have more intensives to use this power for their own good.
Yes Banok, this is RETARDED and could have been done differently. Thanks.
If you have some real suggestions, make a request. I can make another run with different matching if you provide a sensible pseudo algorithm to calculate your desired data set and convince me that it might be useful.
Current data is matched to yesterday's character data and in general data runs must use current database. Taking into account anything over a longer time is not possible.
One thing that I thought about is class detection based on all player characters, but it turned out that many people had so many alts that a relatively large amount of votes matched all classes. This obviously made the comparison kinda useless.
Also nice job on the results so far Kafein, keep it coming!
I've been a part of a lot of competitive games and communities, point 4 is never an issue and point 2 is just untrue.
First, for point 2, you can easily just look at a character's gen to see how long they've been playing/how experienced they are. Sure, this doesn't mean the player is good just because they're gen 15+, but it puts them in a much better place to make balance suggestions than someone who is gen 1-3. They've played more, they've seen more, they've interacted with the community more, they've likely thought about items/builds much more simply because they've had to retire more. Second, everyone knows who the "elites" are that that play on their server. Granted pub stompers != competitive players exactly, warband and especially crpg, doesn't have much of a competitive scene so you can't be extremely picky. Finally you can easily see which clans and members participate in warband's tiny competitive scene as well as who enters in tournaments on crpg, as well as how well they do.
Easy in theory, just time consuming. You could of course, just have people who think they're qualified, post in a thread showing their qualifications. Also, extra points for anyone that's an INTJ.
I'm a 1hander/shielder and guess what; I voted to buff 1hander/shielder, that makes me human and wanting to gain an advantage. I did this believing that 1handers especially are pretty much balanced.
If they actually are "elites" then they've put in a significant amount of time in warband, in the past. You don't become "elite" overnight, in anything.
I think the last part of your post is the most realistic. Basing the difference on the gen number isn't correct since some elite players never retired. What I meant was that, even a super complicated number crunching formula to know who's elite and who's not is not going to work. Even people that play one hour per week could be worth being considered as elites and given a voice in the balance discussion.
The best way to choose people could be electing new ones on a regular basis. For example, members of the "balance assembly" choose 8 people to vote for, and other players choose who of these 8 people becomes the next member.
I did what most people would do, it just shows how pointless this data is. Oh and try and be civil if possible.
Also I was not uncivil to anyone, you responded with base name calling.
For all your fancy book learnin', you don't seem to read so good. I figure that's just about all I've got to say on the subject. :)
It's also funny to find the higher values of the columns in the nerfing matrix. People seem to vote on an emotional basis (what they lost and now want back).I don't understand why your matrix isn't symetric. To me 1H AND 2H = 2H AND 1H
For example, throwers want to nerf cav the most. Before the latest patches throwing was the best anticav class.
Same for 2h that want to see polearms nerfed. Probably because 2h and swing polearms are extremely close weapon types and the domination changed from 2h to polearms in that category.
Here are the other matrix :
First the class-class matrix :Code: [Select]1h 2h pole shield archer xbow throwing cav ha
1h 1.0000000000 0.0866141732 0.2913385827 0.8661417323 0.0748031496 0.1338582677 0.0551181102 0.3976377953 0.0433070866
2h 0.0735785953 1.0000000000 0.0869565217 0.1304347826 0.0568561873 0.1170568562 0.0668896321 0.1906354515 0.0167224080
pole 0.2720588235 0.0955882353 1.0000000000 0.4191176471 0.0330882353 0.0404411765 0.0404411765 0.5919117647 0.0257352941
shield 0.7913669065 0.1402877698 0.4100719424 1.0000000000 0.0251798561 0.1043165468 0.0503597122 0.4280575540 0.0251798561
archer 0.1397058824 0.1250000000 0.0661764706 0.0514705882 1.0000000000 0.0220588235 0.0000000000 0.2720588235 0.2426470588
xbow 0.4047619048 0.4166666667 0.1309523810 0.3452380952 0.0357142857 1.0000000000 0.0000000000 0.2142857143 0.0833333333
throwing 0.3043478261 0.4347826087 0.2391304348 0.3043478261 0.0000000000 0.0000000000 1.0000000000 0.1521739130 0.0652173913
cav 0.3811320755 0.2150943396 0.6075471698 0.4490566038 0.1396226415 0.0679245283 0.0264150943 1.0000000000 0.1622641509
ha 0.2558139535 0.1162790698 0.1627906977 0.1627906977 0.7674418605 0.1627906977 0.0697674419 1.0000000000 1.0000000000
That should be read as "x% of people that are in that class on the left also are in that class on the top"
And the buff-buff matrix :Code: [Select]horseschange armorchange 1hchange 2hchange polechange shieldchange thrownchange bowchange xbowchange
horseschange 1.000000000000 0.260869565217 0.329192546584 0.186335403727 0.173913043478 0.186335403727 0.186335403727 0.198757763975 0.149068322981
armorchange 0.306569343066 1.000000000000 0.189781021898 0.218978102190 0.160583941606 0.204379562044 0.255474452555 0.175182481752 0.145985401460
1hchange 0.321212121212 0.157575757576 1.000000000000 0.066666666667 0.084848484848 0.381818181818 0.284848484848 0.181818181818 0.145454545455
2hchange 0.256410256410 0.256410256410 0.094017094017 1.000000000000 0.179487179487 0.094017094017 0.170940170940 0.119658119658 0.128205128205
polechange 0.400000000000 0.314285714286 0.200000000000 0.300000000000 1.000000000000 0.157142857143 0.157142857143 0.128571428571 0.128571428571
shieldchange 0.294117647059 0.274509803922 0.617647058824 0.107843137255 0.107843137255 1.000000000000 0.245098039216 0.166666666667 0.127450980392
thrownchange 0.137614678899 0.160550458716 0.215596330275 0.091743119266 0.050458715596 0.114678899083 1.000000000000 0.155963302752 0.119266055046
bowchange 0.275862068966 0.206896551724 0.258620689655 0.120689655172 0.077586206897 0.146551724138 0.293103448276 1.000000000000 0.137931034483
xbowchange 0.333333333333 0.277777777778 0.333333333333 0.208333333333 0.125000000000 0.180555555556 0.361111111111 0.222222222222 1.000000000000
That should be read as "x% of people that wanted to buff that thing on the left also wanted to buff that thing on the top"
If I was you developers I would throw this data in the bin. There is no way in hell you can balance this game through this poll. You can't get around the bias no matter what you do. By trying to remove the bias you will also remove objective data. Best to stick with what you have been doing and tweak until you are happy.
I'm a 1hander/shielder and guess what; I voted to buff 1hander/shielder, that makes me human and wanting to gain an advantage. I did this believing that 1handers especially are pretty much balanced.
In fact I think you have done a good job balancing this game except for throwing. You killed throwing. Logically if you buff throwing, then horses should get a buff also.
Maybe what others have suggested. Look at the individual weapons in a class instead of the class. Some weapons are just OP. Others just crap.
So fuck this data, no good can come from it.
I guess one interesting statistic (apart from the obvious LOL EVERYONE BUFFS HIMSELF) is counting the buffs for items that are not being used by the person itself, and counting nerfs to items that are used by the person itself.
horseschange armorchange 1hchange 2hchange polechange shieldchange thrownchange bowchange xbowchange
46 -8 74 13 -15 31 187 51 43
(counting any non-ranged as armoured)
Not everyone is so greedy as to be unable to look beyond themselves in the name of actual balance. You are an ass. You openly and proudly admit to doing something that is seen as wrong here, and then expect civility? To be human is to be imperfect, and you're certainly that. Fuck you, sir.
I will criticize what I disagree with. Proudly admitting selfishness and then demanding civility? I don't believe it's deserved.
So fuck this data, no good can come from it.
I think selfishness is weak and immature and your defense is crap. It sounds like people claiming its not theire fault they are fat, its in theire genetics. Or men cheating on theire wives claiming its theire genetics telling them to fuck everything they can. You are responsible for your own actions and you can not blame it on some bullshit. I am only human too but obviously I am not that selfish and there are many way better people than me out there. Do you want to look at the shit thats fucked up in he world and think that you live in this because of people like yourself or do you want to think that you may be contributing a very small piece but yet a piece to improve it? You have some balls admitting how selfish you are. Now use those balls to admit it is your own fault and you have the ability to change yourself. When you admit to yourself that you can change, why would you want to stay the same? Lets all try to pull in the same direction ? :wink:
Also nice job on the results so far Kafein, keep it coming!
InqWiper you're very naive you want to better the world by making c-rpg more fair? people don't want fair they want to win in games, games are for entertainment people are generally not entertained being pwned.Lol :lol:
OK we could get into the whole intrinsic nature of humanity. But that would be pointless in this context. Attributing my selfishness in my post to the ills of the world is frankly crazy. For all you know I am a philanthropist who gives money to charity. But when I saw an opportunity to boost my class I took it. Albeit I felt a bit guilty. Those of who think I said all people would vote this way are wrong, good for you who tried to be objective. All was needed was a quarter of selfish ass-holes like me to skew the results. Maybe someone like me needed to point this obvious fact out. You can not get any accurate data this way. I appreciate the developers trying their best to balance the game, but there would need to be a different method.I dont think Im crazy but thats what all crazies say right? The sane realise they are absolutely mad.
Code: [Select]horseschange armorchange 1hchange 2hchange polechange shieldchange thrownchange bowchange xbowchange(counting any non-ranged as armoured)
46 -8 74 13 -15 31 187 51 43
I will criticize what I disagree with. Proudly admitting selfishness and then demanding civility? I don't believe it's deserved.
I think the data can still be useful if its interpreted in a non naive way. There ware still things that can be extracted from it even with some deliberately casting shit votes to gain advantage and those casting shit votes due to poor grasp of the bigger picture.+1
You can't determine who is objective,subjective or ignorant.
Everyone is subjective, objectivity is an ideal we can reach out for but never actually reach. It helps to have more data and being aware of its nature.
By the way I wonder how many of the horse buffs were for +5% hitpoints/armor, because other than a few oblivious cavalry guys almost no one thinks courser and arabian warhorse need +5% speed/maneuverability. If it was just those last 2 issues being considered it would have probably switched from buff to nerf. Cav also is a big category adn would also have showna difference in voting between armored and unarmored horses. Just like people voting on 1hers would vote differently between the high-end picks and warhammers as opposed to the swords. Hard to get that kind of exactness though.
I don't understand why your matrix isn't symetric. To me 1H AND 2H = 2H AND 1H
It seems to be something wrong if the the boolean Operator AND is no more commutative
Class -> Vote(buff)
horseschange armorchange 1hchange 2hchange polechange shieldchange thrownchange bowchange xbowchange
1h 0.244094488189 0.145669291339 0.350393700787 0.062992125984 0.035433070866 0.212598425197 0.248031496063 0.098425196850 0.098425196850
2h 0.180602006689 0.177257525084 0.150501672241 0.270903010033 0.050167224080 0.086956521739 0.237458193980 0.103678929766 0.080267558528
pole 0.275735294118 0.194852941176 0.161764705882 0.091911764706 0.180147058824 0.128676470588 0.253676470588 0.099264705882 0.073529411765
shield 0.230215827338 0.147482014388 0.334532374101 0.068345323741 0.053956834532 0.208633093525 0.262589928058 0.082733812950 0.097122302158
archer 0.154411764706 0.117647058824 0.147058823529 0.073529411765 0.022058823529 0.029411764706 0.264705882353 0.426470588235 0.058823529412
xbow 0.214285714286 0.119047619048 0.250000000000 0.130952380952 0.047619047619 0.130952380952 0.250000000000 0.119047619048 0.273809523810
throwing 0.130434782609 0.152173913043 0.195652173913 0.130434782609 0.043478260870 0.065217391304 0.652173913043 0.130434782609 0.043478260870
cav 0.384905660377 0.203773584906 0.207547169811 0.098113207547 0.105660377358 0.105660377358 0.237735849057 0.162264150943 0.075471698113
ha 0.325581395349 0.162790697674 0.139534883721 0.000000000000 0.023255813953 0.023255813953 0.255813953488 0.418604651163 0.093023255814
We don't use the poll for balancing. We do it the old way, throwing dices.+ reading tarot cards and slicing chickens to read tha guts :wink:
We don't use the poll for balancing. We do it the old way, throwing dices.Maybe you should throw some throwing lances. With 8 Power throw i don't even kill archer. Have you ever seen a 8 power strike not allowed to swing his weapon only two time , and not able to kill archer?
We don't use the poll for balancing. We do it the old way, throwing dices.
b) No one is getting "rewarded" or "punished" for voting in the wrong way. Jeez...
This selfless xbowman wanted to buff armor and throwing, not himself! A reward will be handed out to him.Code: [Select]xbow;;;;;;xbow;;;;0;1;0;0;0;0;1;0;0
I lol'd. There's some good postin' in this here thread.
a) this data is not used for doing balance decisions :lol:. who came up with that in the first place? That would be horrible, of course.
(click to show/hide)
All what Thomek said. But I think you're praying in the desert.
To add something, I'd like to point out that some classes don't follow the usual prey-predator dynamic system, like cav and pikes do (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotka%E2%80%93Volterra_equation for more info). Archers (and crossbows) for example tend to become more tempting as their numbers increase. That's why in Native, the best class to play is archer, because everyone else is archer.
I was going to say cav, because you can rack up a lot of kills killing archers using coursers. Too fast for them to get at most 1 shot off if you charge and then you can 1-hit kill them before they can switch to a melee weapon.
You make several not so realistic assumptions there :This whole statement is absolutely correct. Keshian, you seem a tidy bit biased, mind me saying.
- The archer doesn't headshot the courser
- The archer doesn't jump away (and succeeds)
- The map allows this charge
- There are no (or very few) other archers watching the attacked one.
On a courser even 2 or 3 archers are enough to bring you down. And on regular battles you can often find 5 or more archers in position to cover each other (yet unorganised archers don't do that often, despite it's effectivenes). Archers have the best potential for teamwork. Btw, I think you know that already, old Strategus proved it and I don't see how it's going to be any different with the new one.
And now they will buff it into the great heavens. Splendid...
If it makes you cry I think we're all more than happy. :mrgreen:
Great work filtering out all biased votes.
I'm sure the result will be closer to the truth than if you would accept all votes.
However, if some class has more "biased votes" than another you might take those a bit more seriously.
Just take the number of biased votes in percent and compare all classes.
I think I'm #693. Voted to buff throwing only. But just a little or it will just have to get nerfed again.
---
Btw...
It's hard to not get bored and feel hatred against all of these stupid buff/nerf threads filled with posts by players that are unaware of their surroundings and refuses to understand that teamplay is often the only solution to come winning out of certain situations. It's like some players have forgot (or never learned) what it means to have different classes...
With that said, all balance suggestions coming from bad players should be ignored. They will only hurt the teamplay and class based system and ultimately make the game so stupid that everyone will have to be able to counter anything with any weapon and have the same K:D ratio... is that what we want?
With the increasing number of new players coming to this game it's important to not listen to them.
New players will learn eventually and when they have learned they don't want an "easy" game.
Let's make the difference between the classes even bigger, forcing us to make use of teamplay even more! Making the game smarter/harder. Not dumber and easy mode.
I am the only 2h/throwing/cav/haI go out peasant hunting with my best friend Phyrex
I am the only one I know
The only 2h/throwing/cav/ha
In myyyyyyy tribe
Cool data
EDIT: Just logged on my Xbow character and was reminded of the lessened ammo for all ranged. Man, it sucks. In general, video games tend towards the super human and mods are designed to make them more realistic. But why play a game that limits you to sub-human ability? So while stuff like unsheathables makes total sense, somehow carrying less ammo than a human being could carry is...lame.
I am the only 2h/throwing/cav/haYou sir, win for the reference.
I am the only one I know
The only 2h/throwing/cav/ha
In myyyyyyy tribe
Hmm, you know what else is lame? That your character is not deleted when you die. In real life, you only die once, you know.
FOR THE RECORD: My main character is a dedicated pikeman. I voted buff Bow/Thrown/Xbow because of what I perceive to be an unfair nerfing of these in the last patch. Basically all the close combat people whined and whined and got their way with nerfing the actual items, and then the slot system created some de facto nerfs because of the change in loadouts.
-> No. Ranged classes dominate and trends go in that direction as teamwork improves. Bow heirlooms are the only ones that didn't go nerfed, and the arrow release bug isn't fixed (that's why you can see a few full PD archers that shoot completly straight).
I think the biggest problem here is that "nerf pole," for instance, is very broad. So yeah, the scientists and shit break out the numbers analysis and decide what should be nerfed...but nobody knows HOW things should be nerfed. Should all polearms be nerfed? Should my pike take a nerf because people are pissed at people spamming Becs? Only certain polearms then? Does chadz change speed, damage, both, case-by-case?
-> You pointed out the main problem of this survey.
So I didn't choose "nerf pole", although I would agree with the statement "polearm spamming needs to be addressed somehow." Because "nerf pole" makes it sound like "everything gets worse across the board" and not "the game becomes more balanced." Nothing really needs to become worse, people just need to get over the idea that any class should be able to solo any other class as their idea of "balance."
-> You are right on that, but then why are you asking for a buff to ranged classes ? :?
For instance: Throwing was basically eviscerated last patch. Every item got less ammo per stack, and the slots system made a huge change as to how throwing could be utilized. The nerf for throwing lances especially annoys me. I agree with the unsheathable, and I agree that you never should be able to carry more than two of them, but the fact that you can't pick them back up is so absurd. Considering that with the nerf, they barely even one-shot light peasants, this makes an 8000gp item with a high difficulty totally worthless. Why get that much power throw if using the lance makes you a gimmick? Just having the lance be retrievable would fix it IMO.
-> I think we should buff throwing, not by enabling the lances to be retrievable again (it's realistic those things have an high chance to break on impact... If they hadn't, you couldn't throw them on long distances like you can in the game). But by giving much more ammo (up to a little less than what you had with 3 stacks before the patch) per stack + all stack slot sizes should be 3 for throwing axes and over, 1 for shuriken/stones/knives/daggers and 2 for darts, war darts and fransiscas. That way, if you want to throw big things, you can only bring a one slot weapon with you, but you still have enough ammo.
I guess my overall point would be that there are many, many ways to nerf items. The slot system did enough to curb certain abuses (plate-wearing pole-swinging arbalesters, 4 stacks of throwing lance spam etc) such that the annoying things that made people whine so much are gone. But because of the additional nerfing, all that is left is a battlefield with less archers, and WAAAYYYY less throwing.
EDIT: Just logged on my Xbow character and was reminded of the lessened ammo for all ranged. Man, it sucks. In general, video games tend towards the super human and mods are designed to make them more realistic. But why play a game that limits you to sub-human ability? So while stuff like unsheathables makes total sense, somehow carrying less ammo than a human being could carry is...lame.
-> It's called "balance" and also, "playing a game because it has a wonderful melee combat system".
In my recent game experience it just does not seem like ranged dominate, but I also only really play on Siege these days, so I do not know if this is drastically different on Battle. I will say that yes, if you use teamwork then ranged is quite powerful, but that goes for any other weapon on the battlefield. Teamwork is always best, but it doesn't always happen, so we need to have a fun game.
The reasons I chose buff ranged are:
1) I just don't see that many archers on the field compared to pre-patch, and more of them seem to be shooting weak shit. Yeah, I've been rocked by some Longbowmen, but I've also learned how to dodge effectively if I see them aiming at me. So to me, ranged don't dominate at all. Most archers running from me will stop to take that one last close ranged shot and I kill them with a jump-pike to the head at 300. But even if they hit me, I know it wont do enough to stop me. If they dominated, then my sheildless ass should get wasted more of the time. I'm not saying I want any archer to solo, with ease, any shieldless man, but if all bows did a bit more, then shield teamwork would become more important.
2) Ammo for throwing. I don't agree with your suggestions, because I think that a Nord build with a Huscarl shield, 1h axe, and throwing axes should be possible. I liked previous versions of the game where throwing was kind of an accessory that was easy for most people to take to battle. I'd say 3 slots for lances, but you get 3 of them, sounds good to me. And your argument on making them non-retrievable sounds reasonable to me. Hucking them long range and then picking them up would be kinda silly.
If you make the throwing axes, javs, and jarids 3 slots too, then you are essentially turning throwing into a "class" like the light infantry skirmishers from Medieval Total War games. I like throwing as an extra skill that a soldier can pick up alongside his main skillset.
I'd don't see CRPG as a game where if you want to do a certain thing (throw javs), you need to behave a certain way (carry either a shield OR a 1h). If that were so, then chadz should make some prepared class loadouts for us and we can play Native Expanded with Gold and a linear leveling process. CRPG is instead a game where the player gets to make their own specialist, and fight. It's not "army vs army" but more like "group of mercs vs group of mercs." I imagine a bunch of armed-to-the-teeth badasses squaring off, so I liked to see a hail of throwing weapons from each side before battle is joined.
Ultimately, I have really noticed that ranged weapons impact my gameplay, as an unshielded meele, much less than before.
Anotheur way more reasonable to be assured that the best trowing weapon stay reserved to character who has throwing at main skill is to higher difficulty of al throwing weapon. Let's say throwing lance require 8 difficulty jarid 7 , Javelin 6 . Then we can put throwing lance to 2 slot and 3 per stack, and people won't be more annoyed by the "everyone throws" and thrower will be happy again to be allowed to be usefull .
If you play in siege, you play in the "playground" where most new players play. Archers that know how to play won't get fooled often by dodging (apart from extreme cases of 8+ athletics and clothes).
About teamwork, I said this because ranged weapons have the best potential for teamwork. You played Strategus back in the old days ? DRZ were dominating with their archery tactic of spreading all over the place and shooting people that attack other groups, thus effectively forcing the enemy team to move and shooting from various directions, which is autowin. It's incredibly effective, but also easy to do. Most teamwork of other classes involve way more complex movement (since they need to move) and better coordination (turning a coordinated group of cavalry is a nightmare), with less effect (melee or cav can't be 50 attacking one target, ranged can).
About throwing, it's "sidearm" function proved to be a disbalance factor. As throwing was powerful, anyone and their grandmother took throwing weapons. Furthermore, it's particularly lame to see less than 5% of players being pure melee. Ranged weapon have that very simple advantage that people seem to forget when they talk about balance issues : you can attack without being attacked. This is a power that shouldn't be granted like candies to kids. The best is always to steer a middle course. I think that the heavier throwing junk like lances, heavy throwing axes etc. should be reserved to dedicated throwers (thus 3 slots).
Allowing that kind of "secondary skills" if often a problem if the advantage of one choice or the other is too evident. We obviously don't want all shielders to bring throwing axes, but not any of them neither.
i have to say i keep running into more and more throwers recently, got killed by stones, throwing daggers and axes, i even saw a horsethrower :) i guess with some sort of dedication its still playable:D
i have to say i keep running into more and more throwers recently, got killed by stones, throwing daggers and axes, i even saw a horsethrower :) i guess with some sort of dedication its still playable:D
That's the usual periodic ups and downs when something suddenly changes. At first most part-time throwers were so disgusted they completly stopped it. Only true dedicated throwers continued playing that class. And eventually those dedicated throwers impressed other people that started a throwing build themselves. Uniqueness is also a good reason to choose a build, when you want to try something, maybe not min-maxed, but new and different.
Correct me if I'm wrong or ignore it if somebody already brought it up, but aren't the "leave it as it is"-votes left out in this analysis? As their value is simply 0 in every column.
Having looked at the data 90% of it could have been autogenerated based on characters preferences.
Proved polling the player base is pretty pointless - better to rely on judgement of the developers/playtesters.