Official Item Survey Result Data & More (OISRDM)

[Kafein]

Great work filtering out all biased votes.
I'm sure the result will be closer to the truth than if you would accept all votes.

However, if some class has more "biased votes" than another you might take those a bit more seriously.
Just take the number of biased votes in percent and compare all classes.

I think I'm #693. Voted to buff throwing only. But just a little or it will just have to get nerfed again.

---

Btw...

It's hard to not get bored and feel hatred against all of these stupid buff/nerf threads filled with posts by players that are unaware of their surroundings and refuses to understand that teamplay is often the only solution to come winning out of certain situations. It's like some players have forgot (or never learned) what it means to have different classes...


With that said, all balance suggestions coming from bad players should be ignored. They will only hurt the teamplay and class based system and ultimately make the game so stupid that everyone will have to be able to counter anything with any weapon and have the same K:D ratio... is that what we want?

With the increasing number of new players coming to this game it's important to not listen to them.
New players will learn eventually and when they have learned they don't want an "easy" game.

Let's make the difference between the classes even bigger, forcing us to make use of teamplay even more! Making the game smarter/harder. Not dumber and easy mode.

That implies no class is superior to a majority of others. Half the balance suggestions thread are about fine tuning the relative weaknesses and strengths of classes. The other half are for balancing items, often in a "internal to one class" manner (which is less interesting yet crucial too).

No game is perfect, no balance is perfect. The amount of balance suggestion threads will never go down (even if problems are less and less easy to notice).

[Jarlek]

I am the only 2h/throwing/cav/ha
I am the only one I know
The only 2h/throwing/cav/ha
In myyyyyyy tribe


Cool data

I go out peasant hunting with my best friend Phyrex
But all I wanna do is headshot that 2hander
I'm the only 2h/throwing/cav/ha
In my tribe

Cool song, best that I could continue with

[Waylit]

FOR THE RECORD: My main character is a dedicated pikeman.  I voted buff Bow/Thrown/Xbow because of what I perceive to be an unfair nerfing of these in the last patch.  Basically all the close combat people whined and whined and got their way with nerfing the actual items, and then the slot system created some de facto nerfs because of the change in loadouts.

I think the biggest problem here is that "nerf pole," for instance, is very broad.  So yeah, the scientists and shit break out the numbers analysis and decide what should be nerfed...but nobody knows HOW things should be nerfed.  Should all polearms be nerfed?  Should my pike take a nerf because people are pissed at people spamming Becs?  Only certain polearms then?   Does chadz change speed, damage, both, case-by-case?

So I didn't choose "nerf pole", although I would agree with the statement "polearm spamming needs to be addressed somehow."  Because "nerf pole" makes it sound like "everything gets worse across the board" and not "the game becomes more balanced."  Nothing really needs to become worse, people just need to get over the idea that any class should be able to solo any other class as their idea of "balance."

For instance:  Throwing was basically eviscerated last patch.  Every item got less ammo per stack, and the slots system made a huge change as to how throwing could be utilized.  The nerf for throwing lances especially annoys me.  I agree with the unsheathable, and I agree that you never should be able to carry more than two of them, but the fact that you can't pick them back up is so absurd.  Considering that with the nerf, they barely even one-shot light peasants, this makes an 8000gp item with a high difficulty totally worthless.   Why get that much power throw if using the lance makes you a gimmick?  Just having the lance be retrievable would fix it IMO.

I guess my overall point would be that there are many, many ways to nerf items.  The slot system did enough to curb certain abuses (plate-wearing pole-swinging arbalesters, 4 stacks of throwing lance spam etc) such that the annoying things that made people whine so much are gone.  But because of the additional nerfing, all that is left is a battlefield with less archers, and WAAAYYYY less throwing.

EDIT:  Just logged on my Xbow character and was reminded of the lessened ammo for all ranged.  Man, it sucks.  In general, video games tend towards the super human and mods are designed to make them more realistic.  But why play a game that limits you to sub-human ability?    So while stuff like unsheathables makes total sense, somehow carrying less ammo than a human being could carry is...lame.

[zagibu]

EDIT:  Just logged on my Xbow character and was reminded of the lessened ammo for all ranged.  Man, it sucks.  In general, video games tend towards the super human and mods are designed to make them more realistic.  But why play a game that limits you to sub-human ability?    So while stuff like unsheathables makes total sense, somehow carrying less ammo than a human being could carry is...lame.

Hmm, you know what else is lame? That your character is not deleted when you die. In real life, you only die once, you know.

[Chris_P_Bacon]

I am the only 2h/throwing/cav/ha
I am the only one I know
The only 2h/throwing/cav/ha
In myyyyyyy tribe

You sir, win for the reference.

[Waylit]

Hmm, you know what else is lame? That your character is not deleted when you die. In real life, you only die once, you know.

Uh...that's what I am saying.  This is a video game.  Your character does not get erased, in fact you fight over and over as if in Valhalla. 

Normally, its that the video game is less realistic by being easier/faster/better than reality.  In this case, I feel that the video game is more constraining than reality.   Which is backwards.

Ranged has a disadvantage in this regard, because 2h/Pole users already benefit from the inherent unreality of an FPS video game.  It's been the same since Quake:  circle, strafe, and jump!    I think the biggest complaint about 2h/Pole is that the combat looks more like "Goretooth runs in circles in black armor spamming his powerstrike around insanely fast" and not "Ye Olde Fashioned Knighte Duels."   

My point?  chadz could fix this and slow everyone waaaayyy down so that we stand around and fight like Darth and Ben in the original Star Wars.  My main pikeman would LOVE this.  Ranged would love this.  But, I don't really think it should happen because the game would get a little...well...dull.  It's supposed to be a fast paced game of reaction.  The current balance is like all ranged has been reduced, but melee stayed the same.

Well, not ALL ranged.  That's what I was trying to get at above, that options as simple as "buff/nerf bow" don't cut it.  Because what if everybody chose "buff bow" and then all bows got a buff?  The longbow doesn't need a buff at all, it is perfectly fine as is!

[Kafein]

FOR THE RECORD: My main character is a dedicated pikeman.  I voted buff Bow/Thrown/Xbow because of what I perceive to be an unfair nerfing of these in the last patch.  Basically all the close combat people whined and whined and got their way with nerfing the actual items, and then the slot system created some de facto nerfs because of the change in loadouts.


-> No. Ranged classes dominate and trends go in that direction as teamwork improves. Bow heirlooms are the only ones that didn't go nerfed, and the arrow release bug isn't fixed (that's why you can see a few full PD archers that shoot completly straight).

I think the biggest problem here is that "nerf pole," for instance, is very broad.  So yeah, the scientists and shit break out the numbers analysis and decide what should be nerfed...but nobody knows HOW things should be nerfed.  Should all polearms be nerfed?  Should my pike take a nerf because people are pissed at people spamming Becs?  Only certain polearms then?   Does chadz change speed, damage, both, case-by-case?

-> You pointed out the main problem of this survey.

So I didn't choose "nerf pole", although I would agree with the statement "polearm spamming needs to be addressed somehow."  Because "nerf pole" makes it sound like "everything gets worse across the board" and not "the game becomes more balanced."  Nothing really needs to become worse, people just need to get over the idea that any class should be able to solo any other class as their idea of "balance."

-> You are right on that, but then why are you asking for a buff to ranged classes ? 

For instance:  Throwing was basically eviscerated last patch.  Every item got less ammo per stack, and the slots system made a huge change as to how throwing could be utilized.  The nerf for throwing lances especially annoys me.  I agree with the unsheathable, and I agree that you never should be able to carry more than two of them, but the fact that you can't pick them back up is so absurd.  Considering that with the nerf, they barely even one-shot light peasants, this makes an 8000gp item with a high difficulty totally worthless.   Why get that much power throw if using the lance makes you a gimmick?  Just having the lance be retrievable would fix it IMO.

-> I think we should buff throwing, not by enabling the lances to be retrievable again (it's realistic those things have an high chance to break on impact... If they hadn't, you couldn't throw them on long distances like you can in the game). But by giving much more ammo (up to a little less than what you had with 3 stacks before the patch) per stack + all stack slot sizes should be 3 for throwing axes and over, 1 for shuriken/stones/knives/daggers and 2 for darts, war darts and fransiscas. That way, if you want to throw big things, you can only bring a one slot weapon with you, but you still have enough ammo.


I guess my overall point would be that there are many, many ways to nerf items.  The slot system did enough to curb certain abuses (plate-wearing pole-swinging arbalesters, 4 stacks of throwing lance spam etc) such that the annoying things that made people whine so much are gone.  But because of the additional nerfing, all that is left is a battlefield with less archers, and WAAAYYYY less throwing.

EDIT:  Just logged on my Xbow character and was reminded of the lessened ammo for all ranged.  Man, it sucks.  In general, video games tend towards the super human and mods are designed to make them more realistic.  But why play a game that limits you to sub-human ability?    So while stuff like unsheathables makes total sense, somehow carrying less ammo than a human being could carry is...lame.

-> It's called "balance" and also, "playing a game because it has a wonderful melee combat system".

[Waylit]

In my recent game experience it just does not seem like ranged dominate, but I also only really play on Siege these days, so I do not know if this is drastically different on Battle.  I will say that yes, if you use teamwork then ranged is quite powerful, but that goes for any other weapon on the battlefield.   Teamwork is always best, but it doesn't always happen, so we need to have a fun game.

The reasons I chose buff ranged are: 

1)  I just don't see that many archers on the field compared to pre-patch, and more of them seem to be shooting weak shit.  Yeah, I've been rocked by some Longbowmen, but I've also learned how to dodge effectively if I see them aiming at me.  So to me, ranged don't dominate at all.  Most archers running from me will stop to take that one last close ranged shot and I kill them with a jump-pike to the head at 300.  But even if they hit me, I know it wont do enough to stop me.  If they dominated, then my sheildless ass should get wasted more of the time.    I'm not saying I want any archer to solo, with ease, any shieldless man, but if all bows did a bit more, then shield teamwork would become more important.

2) Ammo for throwing.  I don't agree with your suggestions, because I think that a Nord build with a Huscarl shield, 1h axe, and throwing axes should be possible.  I liked previous versions of the game where throwing was kind of an accessory that was easy for most people to take to battle.  I'd say 3 slots for lances, but you get 3 of them, sounds good to me.  And your argument on making them non-retrievable sounds reasonable to me.  Hucking them long range and then picking them up would be kinda silly. 

If you make the throwing axes, javs, and jarids 3 slots too, then you are essentially turning throwing into a "class" like the light infantry skirmishers from Medieval Total War games.  I like throwing as an extra skill that a soldier can pick up alongside his main skillset. 

I'd don't see CRPG as a game where if you want to do a certain thing (throw javs), you need to behave a certain way (carry either a shield OR a 1h).  If that were so, then chadz should make some prepared class loadouts for us and we can play Native Expanded with Gold and a linear leveling process.   CRPG is instead a game where the player gets to make their own specialist, and fight.  It's not "army vs army" but more like "group of mercs vs group of mercs."    I imagine a bunch of armed-to-the-teeth badasses squaring off, so I liked to see a hail of throwing weapons from each side before battle is joined. 

Ultimately, I have really noticed that ranged weapons impact my gameplay, as an unshielded meele, much less than before. 

[Kafein]

In my recent game experience it just does not seem like ranged dominate, but I also only really play on Siege these days, so I do not know if this is drastically different on Battle.  I will say that yes, if you use teamwork then ranged is quite powerful, but that goes for any other weapon on the battlefield.   Teamwork is always best, but it doesn't always happen, so we need to have a fun game.

The reasons I chose buff ranged are: 

1)  I just don't see that many archers on the field compared to pre-patch, and more of them seem to be shooting weak shit.  Yeah, I've been rocked by some Longbowmen, but I've also learned how to dodge effectively if I see them aiming at me.  So to me, ranged don't dominate at all.  Most archers running from me will stop to take that one last close ranged shot and I kill them with a jump-pike to the head at 300.  But even if they hit me, I know it wont do enough to stop me.  If they dominated, then my sheildless ass should get wasted more of the time.    I'm not saying I want any archer to solo, with ease, any shieldless man, but if all bows did a bit more, then shield teamwork would become more important.

2) Ammo for throwing.  I don't agree with your suggestions, because I think that a Nord build with a Huscarl shield, 1h axe, and throwing axes should be possible.  I liked previous versions of the game where throwing was kind of an accessory that was easy for most people to take to battle.  I'd say 3 slots for lances, but you get 3 of them, sounds good to me.  And your argument on making them non-retrievable sounds reasonable to me.  Hucking them long range and then picking them up would be kinda silly. 

If you make the throwing axes, javs, and jarids 3 slots too, then you are essentially turning throwing into a "class" like the light infantry skirmishers from Medieval Total War games.  I like throwing as an extra skill that a soldier can pick up alongside his main skillset. 

I'd don't see CRPG as a game where if you want to do a certain thing (throw javs), you need to behave a certain way (carry either a shield OR a 1h).  If that were so, then chadz should make some prepared class loadouts for us and we can play Native Expanded with Gold and a linear leveling process.   CRPG is instead a game where the player gets to make their own specialist, and fight.  It's not "army vs army" but more like "group of mercs vs group of mercs."    I imagine a bunch of armed-to-the-teeth badasses squaring off, so I liked to see a hail of throwing weapons from each side before battle is joined. 

Ultimately, I have really noticed that ranged weapons impact my gameplay, as an unshielded meele, much less than before.

If you play in siege, you play in the "playground" where most new players play. Archers that know how to play won't get fooled often by dodging (apart from extreme cases of 8+ athletics and clothes).

About teamwork, I said this because ranged weapons have the best potential for teamwork. You played Strategus back in the old days ? DRZ were dominating with their archery tactic of spreading all over the place and shooting people that attack other groups, thus effectively forcing the enemy team to move and shooting from various directions, which is autowin. It's incredibly effective, but also easy to do. Most teamwork of other classes involve way more complex movement (since they need to move) and better coordination (turning a coordinated group of cavalry is a nightmare), with less effect (melee or cav can't be 50 attacking one target, ranged can).


About throwing, it's "sidearm" function proved to be a disbalance factor. As throwing was powerful, anyone and their grandmother took throwing weapons. Furthermore, it's particularly lame to see less than 5% of players being pure melee. Ranged weapon have that very simple advantage that people seem to forget when they talk about balance issues : you can attack without being attacked. This is a power that shouldn't be granted like candies to kids. The best is always to steer a middle course. I think that the heavier throwing junk like lances, heavy throwing axes etc. should be reserved to dedicated throwers (thus 3 slots).

Allowing that kind of "secondary skills" if often a problem if the advantage of one choice or the other is too evident. We obviously don't want all shielders to bring throwing axes, but not any of them neither.

[Cosmos_Shielder]

If you play in siege, you play in the "playground" where most new players play. Archers that know how to play won't get fooled often by dodging (apart from extreme cases of 8+ athletics and clothes).

About teamwork, I said this because ranged weapons have the best potential for teamwork. You played Strategus back in the old days ? DRZ were dominating with their archery tactic of spreading all over the place and shooting people that attack other groups, thus effectively forcing the enemy team to move and shooting from various directions, which is autowin. It's incredibly effective, but also easy to do. Most teamwork of other classes involve way more complex movement (since they need to move) and better coordination (turning a coordinated group of cavalry is a nightmare), with less effect (melee or cav can't be 50 attacking one target, ranged can).


About throwing, it's "sidearm" function proved to be a disbalance factor. As throwing was powerful, anyone and their grandmother took throwing weapons. Furthermore, it's particularly lame to see less than 5% of players being pure melee. Ranged weapon have that very simple advantage that people seem to forget when they talk about balance issues : you can attack without being attacked. This is a power that shouldn't be granted like candies to kids. The best is always to steer a middle course. I think that the heavier throwing junk like lances, heavy throwing axes etc. should be reserved to dedicated throwers (thus 3 slots).

Allowing that kind of "secondary skills" if often a problem if the advantage of one choice or the other is too evident. We obviously don't want all shielders to bring throwing axes, but not any of them neither.

Anotheur way more reasonable to be assured that the best trowing weapon stay reserved to character who has throwing at main skill is to higher difficulty of al throwing weapon. Let's say throwing lance require 8 difficulty jarid 7 , Javelin 6 . Then we can put throwing lance to 2 slot and 3 per stack, and people won't be more annoyed by the "everyone throws" and thrower will be happy again to be allowed to be usefull .

[Cepeshi]

i have to say i keep running into more and more throwers recently, got killed by stones, throwing daggers and axes, i even saw a horsethrower i guess with some sort of dedication its still playable:D

[Kafein]

i have to say i keep running into more and more throwers recently, got killed by stones, throwing daggers and axes, i even saw a horsethrower i guess with some sort of dedication its still playable:D

That's the usual periodic ups and downs when something suddenly changes. At first most part-time throwers were so disgusted they completly stopped it. Only true dedicated throwers continued playing that class. And eventually those dedicated throwers impressed other people that started a throwing build themselves. Uniqueness is also a good reason to choose a build, when you want to try something, maybe not min-maxed, but new and different.

[Cheap_Shot]

i have to say i keep running into more and more throwers recently, got killed by stones, throwing daggers and axes, i even saw a horsethrower i guess with some sort of dedication its still playable:D

That's the usual periodic ups and downs when something suddenly changes. At first most part-time throwers were so disgusted they completly stopped it. Only true dedicated throwers continued playing that class. And eventually those dedicated throwers impressed other people that started a throwing build themselves. Uniqueness is also a good reason to choose a build, when you want to try something, maybe not min-maxed, but new and different.

And for the record, just because something kills you doesn't mean it's actually good afterall. Those dedicated throwers who didn't stop might kill you out of sheer stubbornness. Skill is in no short supply for them. I'd like to think I'm among those ranks. We compensate as much as we can for the avalanche of  handicaps, and have been throwing long enough to get a kill sometimes. We do it because it's fun and the way we like to play. God knows we'd all be getting 5x the kills if we picked up a crossbow.

For others, it's just a luck and numbers thing. Luck, because unless it's one of those stubborn few, that throwing kill was probably the one shot in 10 that hit, and it was probably luck. I know a good portion of my kills are still luck. Accuracy is so poor now that they never really fly where you aim. A lot of the time they only hit because someone dodges into your thrown weapon which didn't go quite where you were aiming. Standing still is sometimes the best way to dodge throwing. Numbers, because when enough people in one spot are throwing things at you, odds are one of them is going to hit. Don't shout, "OMG THROWING IS STILL OP!". Stop to consider. Were you distracted by melee? Was there more then one person throwing? Were you already hurt or low on health? Are you new/low level/really bad at this game? If you can be honest and say yes to any one of those, then you may have been killed by luck or numbers. And while numbers is a viable tactic, luck shouldn't have to be.

[Spawny]

BTW, throwing lances are still perfectly retrievable. They never changed that.

What was changed is you effective PT level depending on your effective wpf. If you don't have 14 wpf per rank of PT (AFTER weight penalty), you don't use the PT you have.

So, for 6 PT you need to have at least 84 wpf in throwing after the weight penalty. If you have it, you can pick up your missed throwing lance without a problem.

Been playing around with throwing lances, 6 PT and 100+ effective wpf today. Wasn't a succes. Just 1 of my hits was a kill and that was a guy in robes who just survived a hit from someone else. All the other players I hit just kept on going like nothing happened.

[SchokoSchaf]

Correct me if I'm wrong or ignore it if somebody already brought it up, but aren't the "leave it as it is"-votes left out in this analysis? As their value is simply 0 in every column.