cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: EyeBeat on May 31, 2011, 10:47:44 am

Title: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: EyeBeat on May 31, 2011, 10:47:44 am
Should I conform or not?

Why should a two hander/polearm in tin can armor be able to use a sniper gun that one hit kills you sometimes through your shield?

Is this balanced?

This crossbow hybrid shit is getting old fast.  Please do something about it.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Espu on May 31, 2011, 10:53:19 am
Two-hander/polearm = 2+ slots. That leaves room for normal crossbow that definately does not one-hit kill you through your shield.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Seawied on May 31, 2011, 10:58:13 am
While you are making liberal use of hyperbole, crossbows definitely need a good whack with the nerf bat. Something is certainly off when my sword and shield/cross hybrid is more accurate and deals comparable damage to my archer character.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: BlackMilk on May 31, 2011, 10:59:53 am
While you are making liberal use of hyperbole, crossbows definitely need a good whack with the nerf bat. Something is certainly off when my sword and shield/cross hybrid is more accurate and deals comparable damage to my archer character.
Your archer will shoot 10 arrows in the same amount of time in which your cross hybrid reloads his hunting crossbow.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Seawied on May 31, 2011, 11:05:27 am
Your archer will shoot 10 arrows in the same amount of time in which your cross hybrid reloads his hunting crossbow.

 :rolleyes:
You ever try using a light crossbow? Its shoot speed is only slightly behind some of the bows, especially if you heirloom it. The only time the reload factor becomes a big issue is if you're on horseback. Horses are the only arena where a bow is the clear champion of the two.

The difference is that bows require significant wpf investment AND stat investment. Crossbows only require an optional wpf investment.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: LLJK_Korea1 on May 31, 2011, 12:30:34 pm
y'all mess with my xbow and ill cut you deep  :evil:
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Ylca on May 31, 2011, 02:45:17 pm
The crossbow is relatively inaccurate and requires a long reload time. Beyond that, if 80% of players are using crossbows crossbows are amazingly balanced seemingly as every server i go on has a majority of kills done by melee (i'd say at least 70%) unless it's the start of as siege when attackers are rushing into a defensive wall.

Ranged characters have to adjust for drop, flight speed, lateral movement. The crossbow itself is around 2 pounds, the bolts are also 2 leaving you with 4 to 5 extra pounds to carry about, a significant amount if one does not have high athletics (speed is king).

While i've been killed by bows from time to time i've never felt they were broken because of the general level of skill by the players who kill me. When a guy fires from a huge distance away from me while i'm running I swear under my breath a little, look over, and have to admit- hell yeah he earned that kill.

Of course i'm of the strange opinion that the fact that people can kill me in a variety of ways, and that the game caters to a variety of playstyles as a positive. Nothing wrong with competition or variety.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Diavolo on May 31, 2011, 03:34:57 pm
Should I conform or not?

Why should a two hander/polearm in tin can armor be able to use a sniper gun that one hit kills you sometimes through your shield?

Is this balanced?

This crossbow hybrid shit is getting old fast.  Please do something about it.

Guy with offensive name, stop trolling and get your facts straight. Only because you were killed by an xbower doesnt mean they should get nerfed. I agree there should be wpf limitaions on xbows like 20,40,60,80 and 100 for the 5 different xbows. Besides from that they are not op, and as Vargas mentioned its impossible to carry anything above normal xbow with a polearm/2hander. If you try to compare stats of xbows and bows, its easy to get tricked into believing xbows are very good. The power draw of bows gives a lot of damage and missile speed. Also, the reload speed of xbows is very long, though many of the archers often say "oh its just 4-5 arrows for every bolt" one has to remember xbowmen can nearly never fire at a target twice, they also cant do some of the reloading here and some there, they have to do it all in one bulk and stand still while doing so. One should also remember that xbows are extremely expensive.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Tzar on May 31, 2011, 04:07:01 pm
Aye its back to pre patch status with ranged bundle of sticksry gz to all you idiots who loomed the shit out of the normal xbow to keep up your fairy sidearm abuse  :wink:

The xbow might not be insane OP or anything but it hurts the gameplay and turns the game into a ranged duel where who ever gets to pick of most people before the actual battle starts wins hence the 2slot patch was to prevent this scenario and now its back touche....

Also each round we have to wait 3 min for the last xbow hybrids to finish up their ammo before the game can continue its rather slightly retarded  :lol:
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Ylca on May 31, 2011, 04:22:04 pm
have to wait 3 min for the last xbow hybrids to finish up their ammo before the game can continue its rather slightly retarded  :lol:

Or you could advance behind your shield.

Or you could advance behind your team's shield wall. That would require teamwork however, and people seem to forget that it exists.

Or (assuming non-plains) you could set your team up in an attacking position behind cover and wait for a second. Heck if your team has hoplites you can send them out to flank and then attack in unison while the archers are distracted and cannot fire. My first goal in any engagement is to find the archers and get close enough to them that they can no longer shoot, and it works pretty well. 1 fast melee with a shield can make an entire group of archer either scatter, or pointlessly shoot arrows into his shield while his team flanks from another direction. Where are your teammates? Why aren't you forming plans with them and striking together?




Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Gorath on May 31, 2011, 04:29:46 pm
and wait for a second.
Unfortunately there's a timer in the game which actually makes this more advantageous for the ranged guys you're hiding from as the MoF flags will draw you out into their fire eventually, or you'll just lose because the other team gets the flags while you are hiding.

Where are your teammates? Why aren't you forming plans with them and striking together?

Because everyone that isn't in the same voice chat with you is a flaming retard and is to be treated as such.

In the case of Eyebeat, he's LLJK so the people in his voice chat are even more of a flaming retard than the aforementioned flaming retards.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Ylca on May 31, 2011, 04:38:31 pm
Because everyone that isn't in the same voice chat with you is a flaming retard and is to be treated as such.

This sounds like more of a maturity issue than a balance issue then, doesn't it? If the perception is that anyone who isn't in TS isn't worth working with, and teams who do form squads and work together consistently get multipliers, it seems that there isn't much of a problem at all. This would be an instance of the players creating a bed, lying in it, then getting up saying the bed is uncomfortable and asking the devs to bring them a Serta.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Malaclypse on May 31, 2011, 05:08:58 pm
While you are making liberal use of hyperbole, crossbows definitely need a good whack with the nerf bat. Something is certainly off when my sword and shield/cross hybrid is more accurate and deals comparable damage to my archer character.

This has always been the case for xbows, as far as I know, all the way back to single player vanilla MB, Multiplayer Native Warband also. Maybe add more reload time to the lighter xbows, as that is supposed to be their, basically, only drawback.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Tzar on May 31, 2011, 06:12:50 pm
just make it so that they have to spent wpf points to use em end of story no more full ranged battle servers
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Diavolo on May 31, 2011, 06:13:34 pm
just make it so that they have to spent wpf points to use em end of story no more full ranged battle servers

agreed.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Ylca on May 31, 2011, 07:40:20 pm
just make it so that they have to spent wpf points to use em end of story no more full ranged battle servers

If they did this they would have to implement the same system for all melee weapons as well, which i doubt people would like once they found they suddenly can no longer build anything approaching a workable hybrid.

e: I have also never seen a full ranged server ever. I have, however seen instances when we sorely could use more archers and don't have enough people who are playing the build online.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: MadJackMcMad on May 31, 2011, 07:54:43 pm
If they did this they would have to implement the same system for all melee weapons as well, which i doubt people would like once they found they suddenly can no longer build anything approaching a workable hybrid.

Why?  I didn't realise people were using melee weapons overmuch.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Diavolo on May 31, 2011, 08:00:01 pm
Yea, the wpf requirements doesnt have to be high.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Ylca on May 31, 2011, 08:01:17 pm
Why?  I didn't realise people were using melee weapons overmuch.

When more than 50% of the kills on every server i've been on are melee would say I didn't realize people were using ranged too much. Either way, as i've been saying people who try to push for nerfs for every build but their own would do well to remember that nerfs come with other nerfs. Nerf one thing and suddenly this other thing that was balanced before is overpowered. Then everyone gets to feel the joy of the nerf bat!

I'm not a big fan of that style of balance, i'd rather see everyone brought to an equal level than everyone in every build dragged down, much in part it seems because people are upset that others have the ability to kill them in ways they themselves would not choose to use.

Every nerf has to be balanced somewhere else, it's all fun and games until that nerf bat you were weilding like a Bec de Corbin swings around and hits your build right in the face. Beyond that from what i've seen so far most classes excel in a particular niche and the only class "broken" right now is throwing, which is being reviewed. CRPG might have a few flaws, but make no mistake it's amazingly well balanced for a small development team.

Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Tzar on May 31, 2011, 08:09:19 pm
If they did this they would have to implement the same system for all melee weapons as well, which i doubt people would like once they found they suddenly can no longer build anything approaching a workable hybrid.

Go ahead i dont mind wouldnt change anything for me or anyone else other than the people who insist on carrying their xbows in battle..
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Seawied on May 31, 2011, 08:09:57 pm
The crossbow is relatively inaccurate

They are currently the most accurate ranged weapons in the game. Take a look at ATS_Native's thread.  With limited WPF investment, they become much more accurate than bows.
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,4136.0.html
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Ylca on May 31, 2011, 08:25:56 pm
Go ahead i dont mind wouldnt change anything for me or anyone else other than the people who insist on carrying their xbows in battle..

So the fact that this will hamper hybrid builds doesn't concern you at all? The more i read your posts, and correct me if i'm wrong, the more i hear "nerf everyone but me, please please please. Other people have different preferences of play and that makes mine harder/ less effective so they are obviously overpowered."

You can see where this train of thought would be bad for the mod in the long run, right? I mean yeah you can rail until there are no ranged, congratulations you just alienated 50% of your mod and a low population mod is a dead mod in a few months. I wonder if people realize that if the devs coded in half of the suggestions here there would be no CRPG, it would be a pet project by a few guys, only populated by their closest friends and the people who agree with the "one true build".

There are advantages to taking a step back and considering whether something is really unbalanced, or whether it's just annoying because it's effective. Petitioning for nerfs constantly leads to more nerfs being necessary to bring other items back in line. Nerf enough and everyone gets to play by themselves on 10 man servers in a game that should be populated by hundreds with its solid concept and active developers.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Quallen on May 31, 2011, 08:33:21 pm
While EyeBeatWomen may be exaggerating a little I actually found myself going to the siege server this weekend to escape all the ranged weapons on the battle servers.  For whatever reason there has been a definite swing towards more ranged
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Lichen on May 31, 2011, 08:33:52 pm
just make it so that they have to spent wpf points to use em end of story no more full ranged battle servers

If they did this they would have to implement the same system for all melee weapons as well, which i doubt people would like once they found they suddenly can no longer build anything approaching a workable hybrid.

I don't think you should HAVE to spend points to use them. I do think you should HAVE to spend points if you want to be effective with them though. I've used them with 1 wpf and IMO they are far too accurate and reload way too quick even with no points put in them. No points in them should equal = noob recruit who takes forever to reload (longer than it takes now at default) cause he isn't familiar and well practiced in it. Plus less accuracy than they currently have with no wpf put in. A LOT of points put into it = very efficiently fast reload plus more accurate of course.  I've used 1wpf crossbows and it felt cheap. I didn't have to make any sacrifices to my character build to be pretty effective with them.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Ylca on May 31, 2011, 08:47:34 pm
While EyeBeatWomen may be exaggerating a little I actually found myself going to the siege server this weekend to escape all the ranged weapons on the battle servers.  For whatever reason there has been a definite swing towards more ranged

I've been fleeing in the opposite direction. I'd much rather deal with a few archers than the almost guarantee lately on NA_Siege that someone will fling open the gates leading to short, uninteresting rounds in the  huge periods in which they have no admins and no votekicking. Different strokes for different folks, though.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Elmetiacos on May 31, 2011, 08:54:58 pm
This must be more a NA than an EU phenomenon; I've noticed perhaps a slight increase in crossbow use, possibly motivated in part by the massive increase in two hand and polearm fighters after the last patch. I said then that the slot system would probably only result in the sky being dark with bolts from medium rather sniper crossbows and that seems to have happened over there.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Damug on May 31, 2011, 08:57:51 pm
Maybe add more reload time to the lighter xbows, as that is supposed to be their, basically, only drawback.
That would be the death of the lower tier crossbows.  You already have to sit defenseless with your ass in the air for 3~ seconds to reload, any more would be absolutely fatal to them.  Best suggestion I've seen is a wpf limitation on them, so that you have to sacrifice your ability to melee a bit to have a crossbow, and there would be no more 1 wpf superstars (which is overblown anyways, with 1 wpf you can't hit anyone more than 20 feet away from you with any reliability at all).
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Tzar on May 31, 2011, 09:18:19 pm
with 1 wpf you can't hit anyone more than 20 feet


Practice practice... not a huge deal considering how tight the aim is at 1wpf


That would be the death of the lower tier crossbows.  You already have to sit defenseless with your ass in the air for 3~ seconds to reload,


Thats 2 sec if unless u stand still and wait for the entire reload animation

Oww xbow are more than allright and easy to use with no skill investment hence the 80% of players on battle server use em if they where so useless as u lobbyist keep claiming then no1 would use em lmao stop being naive  :lol:
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Gorath on May 31, 2011, 10:28:47 pm
If the perception is that anyone who isn't in TS isn't worth working with, and teams who do form squads and work together consistently get multipliers, it seems that there isn't much of a problem at all.

Exactly.  The people stacking multipliers all day long are the clans (and friends) sitting in VoiP rolling over pubbies.  This is how it should be.  Period.

However, that is why people aren't with teammates saying "Ok you worthless shielder my old friend.  Protect us 2h/PA players from everything until we get close enough to kill the entire team.  You, bowmy old friend and throwmo's, shoot the enemy cav so we can mop them up as well.  Stop being lamers and do your job."

While that is exaggerated the point remains.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Tzar on May 31, 2011, 10:47:01 pm
Exactly.  The people stacking multipliers all day long are the clans (and friends) sitting in VoiP rolling over pubbies.  This is how it should be.  Period.

However, that is why people aren't with teammates saying "Ok you worthless shielder my old friend.  Protect us 2h/PA players from everything until we get close enough to kill the entire team.  You, bowmy old friend and throwmo's, shoot the enemy cav so we can mop them up as well.  Stop being lamers and do your job."

While that is exaggerated the point remains.

Come to EU we dont have stacked teams there  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: EyeBeat on May 31, 2011, 11:05:41 pm
While EyeBeatWomen may be exaggerating a little I actually found myself going to the siege server this weekend to escape all the ranged weapons on the battle servers.  For whatever reason there has been a definite swing towards more ranged

I know it sucks that I might have a point and some people might actually agree with me because I am LLJK or whatever.  HURF DURF OMG A TROLL.

But when you play on a battle server with about 16 total players and everyone is packing a crossbow you would think a shielder would be at an advantage.  But they arent.

You pack less armor so you can get to them faster while hiding behind your shield which is supposed to block the bolts from hitting you.  Yet when you do this the bolts still have a chance to go through your shield and damage you badly since you have no armor. 

Here is a way to balance it for me.  Make it so the low tier crossbows do not shoot through shields.  Nerf the heirlooms on low tier crossbows.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Tomas_of_Miles on May 31, 2011, 11:17:28 pm
I stick with the opinion that people don't work together enough. It's why whole teams get destroyed on plains by cav. It's why the team with the most tanks win on that tight, claustraphobic street map. When the Sea Raiders form a squad, they can plough through enemy infantry on most maps. I can say the same for the clan formerly knowns as the my old friend, and the Mercs. Most other players only think about themselves, their k/d their xp, their gold, and being able to kill everyone else single-handedly. I don't think balance is inherently a problem with stats of weapons, or their possible roles, I think it is a problem with the mindset of the players.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Tzar on June 01, 2011, 12:31:17 am
I stick with the opinion that people don't work together enough. It's why whole teams get destroyed on plains by cav. It's why the team with the most tanks win on that tight, claustraphobic street map. When the Sea Raiders form a squad, they can plough through enemy infantry on most maps. I can say the same for the clan formerly knowns as the my old friend, and the Mercs. Most other players only think about themselves, their k/d their xp, their gold, and being able to kill everyone else single-handedly. I don't think balance is inherently a problem with stats of weapons, or their possible roles, I think it is a problem with the mindset of the players.

Way to derail the thread with another topic this has nothing to do with the fact that almost the entire server have gone with normal xbows instead of the sniper for there ranged spam solution...
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Shablagoo on June 01, 2011, 12:46:51 am
As much as I hate the same 2 dummies making half a dozen threads about the same exact whine, I do actually like the 20,40.60,80,100 idea for xbow requirements. 
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Seawied on June 01, 2011, 12:56:41 am
I know it sucks that I might have a point and some people might actually agree with me because I am LLJK or whatever.  HURF DURF OMG A TROLL.

... you see its comments like that which give a LLJK its troll reputation.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Ylca on June 01, 2011, 01:28:33 am
... you see its comments like that which give a LLJK its troll reputation.


No, trolling gets LLJK has a reptuation for trolling because LLJK likes to troll. Still doesn't change the fact that you're taking the easy way out and avoiding his valid points. No one is falling for you "you're such a troll that i can't refute your valid points" spiel, so why don't you just either actually ignore him or respond to his posts.

No need for the "wise uncle haughtier than thou" act.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Seawied on June 01, 2011, 02:00:23 am
 :wink: Ylca, your last post just goes to show that you didn't even read the entire thread. Thanks for playing though!
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Thucydides on June 01, 2011, 02:05:43 am
I stick with the opinion that people don't work together enough. It's why whole teams get destroyed on plains by cav. It's why the team with the most tanks win on that tight, claustraphobic street map. When the Sea Raiders form a squad, they can plough through enemy infantry on most maps. I can say the same for the clan formerly knowns as the my old friend, and the Mercs. Most other players only think about themselves, their k/d their xp, their gold, and being able to kill everyone else single-handedly. I don't think balance is inherently a problem with stats of weapons, or their possible roles, I think it is a problem with the mindset of the players.

duh but thats because people on the internet are retarded
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Ylca on June 01, 2011, 02:43:49 am
:wink: Ylca, your last post just goes to show that you didn't even read the entire thread. Thanks for playing though!

Translation:

"You see you're missing the point. You have to reread the thread to see why i'm selectively choosing to ignore those with whom i personally dislike. In fact it makes so much sense i don't even have to point out my reasons- cryptic messages get my point across just as well.

Seriously though, respond to the statement or browse over. This "check out how above it all I am" just makes you look like you have no idea what you're talking about.

edit: Tomas_of_Miles hits the nail on the head.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Seawied on June 01, 2011, 02:52:01 am
this post was a bit fucked up, so I edited out
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Ylca on June 01, 2011, 03:02:33 am
Redacted, as Seawied is a super classy gentleman.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Ugh you're right, i've been responding thinking you were someone else in the entirely wrong thread. Welp, time for the point and laugh show, starring your host- Ylca.  :|
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Seawied on June 01, 2011, 03:04:14 am
eh, it happens. Sorry for jumping down your throat.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Casimir on June 01, 2011, 03:17:48 am
What you all fail to comprehend is that every logical argument and sollution put forward here will be ignored.

The Xbows doged a nerf last patch with throwing which actually required investment. Throwing now has wpf requirement also.

Why doesnt xbow?
IRC lobbyists. End of.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Cheap_Shot on June 01, 2011, 03:50:33 am
Just as long as they don't apply that god awful wpf restriction thing to xbows. Just make it effect accuracy in an actual curve. Done. Currently xbow accuracy is almost exactly the same from 0-100wpf and then it starts to go up. And the accuracy isn't even bad at 0. In fact it's good. Better then any throwing weapon at 130 throwing wpf, and better then a lot of bow accuracy too. It doesn't make sense for it to start that good with no investment.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Tomas_of_Miles on June 01, 2011, 05:02:21 am
Just as long as they don't apply that god awful wpf restriction thing to xbows. Just make it effect accuracy in an actual curve. Done. Currently xbow accuracy is almost exactly the same from 0-100wpf and then it starts to go up. And the accuracy isn't even bad at 0. In fact it's good. Better then any throwing weapon at 130 throwing wpf, and better then a lot of bow accuracy too. It doesn't make sense for it to start that good with no investment.
I am a thrower this gen and I find it easier to hit with the light crossbow with 0wpf than with throwing weapons at just over 100 wpf. But what I am not taking into account is the fact that I am moving when I throw, thus decreasing the accuracy of my weapon. I can aim fairly well when throwing from a standstill. This needs to be remembered when comparing throwing weapons and crossbows.

Throwing has the ability for shield usage alongside it, can throw faster, sometimes has melee alternate mode. It is weaker at lower levels and stronger at higher levels. Has a dramatic arc. Can take 1 slot minimum with more than 1 projectile.
Crossbow has high damage, unaffected by skills, high accuracy, affected by skills but usable at extremely low levels ( the lower tier crossbows). HAs to reload between shots. Takes two slots minimum (unless taking the one projectile).
As far as I know not all these factors have been taken into consideration on this thread.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Cheap_Shot on June 01, 2011, 06:57:09 am
As far as I know not all these factors have been taken into consideration on this thread.

Sure they are. No one trying to tear crossbows a new one. Its common consensus that wpf should actually matter. That's the only change that they really need. They are perfectly fine and balanced, but they just don't require any point investment to use at all. Anyone can pick one up and get accurate kills without spending a single point towards them. All those points you stated, while true, don't effect that fact.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Tzar on June 01, 2011, 01:09:49 pm
Cheap_shot there is no point in trying to make any sense to a die-hard lobbyist like Tomas  :mrgreen:

What you all fail to comprehend is that every logical argument and sollution put forward here will be ignored.

The Xbows doged a nerf last patch with throwing which actually required investment. Throwing now has wpf requirement also.

Why doesnt xbow?
IRC lobbyists. End of.

Your correct Casimir and its really a shame chadz have these sort of people working on the mod in the first place since they disregard balance towards their own preferred playstyle  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Paul on June 01, 2011, 01:36:27 pm
Exploding bolts next patch.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: krampe on June 01, 2011, 02:22:00 pm
Exploding bolts next patch.

with nukular warheads?
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Tzar on June 01, 2011, 03:16:54 pm
Exploding bolts next patch.

Wouldn't even be surprised if it happens....
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: John on June 01, 2011, 05:20:40 pm
Honestly, I don't think crossbows are unbalanced or overpowered at all.  I just think the fact that everyone is using one is making the game a lot less fun.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Phew on June 01, 2011, 07:46:10 pm
Honestly, I don't think crossbows are unbalanced or overpowered at all.  I just think the fact that everyone is using one is making the game a lot less fun.

Crossbows are great right now because they are a huge gold sink. People want to bring one, because it's fun to have something to do before you engage in the melee, but they are only useful for killing stupid/stationary/naked people. But this fun factor is worth the upkeep to a lot of people.

Would you rather everyone that carries a crossbow+medium armor stop carrying a crossbow but use their gold to wear plate instead? Plate ruins the fun a lot more than crossbows do.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Tomas_of_Miles on June 01, 2011, 09:02:11 pm
Crossbows are great right now because they are a huge gold sink. People want to bring one, because it's fun to have something to do before you engage in the melee, but they are only useful for killing stupid/stationary/naked people. But this fun factor is worth the upkeep to a lot of people.

Would you rather everyone that carries a crossbow+medium armor stop carrying a crossbow but use their gold to wear plate instead? Plate ruins the fun a lot more than crossbows do.
I'd rather face someone in the same armour as me with a crossbow than a plated dude without. I'd feel like I have a better chance dodging crossbow bolts than getting consistent solid, non-glancing hits on a tincan. Die-hard lobbyist?  :P Oh noes I've been seen through!
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Jacko on June 01, 2011, 09:52:36 pm
Adding 20-40-60-80-100 WPF will change nothing. It's very easy to get 100~ wpf. This has nothing to do with crossbows specifically. People want a range side arm, because they feel frustrated when someone shoots at them (or lances) and they can do Nothing about it. Nerf low tier xbows and people will get some other ranged instead. I have no solution, but nerfing something that's actually reasonably balanced just seems dumb.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: BlackMilk on June 01, 2011, 11:40:47 pm
Adding 20-40-60-80-100 WPF will change nothing. It's very easy to get 100~ wpf. This has nothing to do with crossbows specifically. People want a range side arm, because they feel frustrated when someone shoots at them (or lances) and they can do Nothing about it. Nerf low tier xbows and people will get some other ranged instead. I have no solution, but nerfing something that's actually reasonably balanced just seems dumb.
pretty much this.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Tzar on June 01, 2011, 11:48:21 pm
Adding 20-40-60-80-100 WPF will change nothing. It's very easy to get 100~ wpf. This has nothing to do with crossbows specifically. People want a range side arm, because they feel frustrated when someone shoots at them (or lances) and they can do Nothing about it. Nerf low tier xbows and people will get some other ranged instead. I have no solution, but nerfing something that's actually reasonably balanced just seems dumb.


lol again another fail argument from lobbyist nr 201....


Ok genius tell what other ranged option people will pick if they cant use xbow without wpf investment?? damn....

Also like you say yourself people pick up the xbow because they are fed up gettin shot at by ranged well if people werent able to use them fuckin xbow in the first place this wouldnt be such a huge issue now would it???

Hmn and why are we suddenly trying to derail the thread about people wearing plate armor instead of xbows?? when the hell did this happen?? lasttime i checked the normal xbow cost 10k wich is hardly no where near the price of plate armor..


Also there is nobody talking about nerfing xbow we are trying to suggest that it should take some skill investment to prevent 80% of the server being ranged.



Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Damug on June 02, 2011, 12:02:53 am
Hmn and why are we suddenly trying to derail the thread about people wearing plate armor instead of xbows?? when the hell did this happen?? lasttime i checked the normal xbow cost 10k wich is hardly no where near the price of plate armor..
Instead of wearing transitional armor and carrying an xbow+bolts (roughly 30k) they could just be wearing milanese plate instead (roughly 30k).
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Tzar on June 02, 2011, 12:05:58 am
Instead of wearing transitional armor and carrying an xbow+bolts (roughly 30k) they could just be wearing milanese plate instead (roughly 30k).

Who cares ? its not like its a huge advantage gettin a shitload of your wpf removed and being slow as a snail hardly any1 will use that anyway

back to topic i wish chadz is gonna remove your loomed xbows and end the range spam fest that have comeback after pre patch..

I've gotten many kills with a zero wpf crossbow at a good distance further than shotgunning range. Right now I could get an arbalest or heavy crossbow and go on to a battle server and wait for sucker cavalry to come at me then down either their horse or them in one shot when they get close. No other weapon is THAT effective with zero investment. I can't pick up a 1h, 2h,pole, bow, or throwing weapon with no skills invested and expect anything other than total failure with the extremely low low change of success. Crossbow doesn't follow that simple principle that all the other weaps do. I agree with your new wpf suggestion though. Seems like a reasonable effectiveness curve though the exact numbers may need adjustment. I'd go for 140+ wpf = Annie Oakley since crossbows really should never be super pinpoint accurate.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Malaclypse on June 02, 2011, 12:17:54 am
The only thing that irks me a little is people being able to use big, high tier 2handed weapons/polearms alongside their xbow. But I don't advocate making all xbows 2-slots either, as that would totally kill the classic sword/board/crossbow/bolts combo that has been around forever. Some wpf requirement to make them more accurate would be nice (say, just drastically reducing their accuracy at 1-50 wpf), but to actually hold them, no. That's it.

But I still don't feel that the current amount of ranged is unbalanced in any way. I have a shielder, a 2hander, a polearm char, and an archer, and I honestly feel the game is very balanced from all of those perspectives.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: EponiCo on June 02, 2011, 01:15:13 am
Who cares ? its not like its a huge advantage gettin a shitload of your wpf removed and being slow as a snail hardly any1 will use that anyway

Aren't you the guy with the plate and the hammer?
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Casimir on June 02, 2011, 02:11:17 am
Wouldn't even be surprised if it happens....

word
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Rumblood on June 02, 2011, 02:20:11 am
X-bow users should be limited to 1 handed weapons. If they want a shield too, it should be a 0 slot 1 hander  :idea:
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Tzar on June 02, 2011, 02:23:15 am
X-bow users should be limited to 1 handed weapons. If they want a shield too, it should be a 0 slot 1 hander  :idea:

shouldnt be the case but some wpf req would solve 80% of the server having xbows

xbows cost any skill points? Bows need like 7pd to deal crazy damg like your xbow
do you even need wpf to use it at all? bows need like 100wpf+ to even get ok aim... your xbow has better aim at 0wpf then my long bow at 126wpf....
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its is op because anyone can pick it up and 1 shot people... Great range weapon for no trade off...
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Cheap_Shot on June 02, 2011, 07:36:24 am
Yeah, honestly there isn't any "nerf xbows" discussion here. The people who are actually good at, and want to use xbows will have more then 100 wpf in them anyway. Changing it so that wpf actually matters wont effect anyone but the people trying to use it as a free shotgun before jumping in to helicopter around.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Jacko on June 02, 2011, 08:08:10 pm
Nerf as in making low tiers xbows 2 slots, but nevermind, perhaps using the word "nerf" was a bit harsh. Perhaps changing the crossbows would be more appropriate.

Truth be told, you only come across as a whiner and a lobbyist (using your own words), when your constantly making threads about how unbalanced xbows are. Before xbows we had thrower hybrid, before that archer hybrids and even before that I believe we had xbows again. My point is perhaps people simply WANT a ranged weapon with them, and regardless if you change xbows, they will find something else that suits them.

Sometimes range dominates the big servers, that doesn't mean it's unbalanced, or even good. The whole idea with xbows is that they are less then an investment then Bows, especially the low tier ones. I don't see how you could change this without making them compete with bows (dedicated xbowers with loomed arbalests certainly can, but not in an unbalanced fashion).


Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Rumblood on June 03, 2011, 04:40:05 am
The whole idea with xbows is that they are less then an investment then Bows, especially the low tier ones. I don't see how you could change this without making them compete with bows (dedicated xbowers with loomed arbalests certainly can, but not in an unbalanced fashion).

I dont see why a fully armored 2 hander should get 90% of the effectiveness of a bow with no additional penalty to another skill or attribute.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Diavolo on June 03, 2011, 11:11:54 am
Yeah, honestly there isn't any "nerf xbows" discussion here. The people who are actually good at, and want to use xbows will have more then 100 wpf in them anyway. Changing it so that wpf actually matters wont effect anyone but the people trying to use it as a free shotgun before jumping in to helicopter around.

this. just get that wpf requirement on the xbows, and its all good.

Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Paul on June 03, 2011, 03:15:53 pm
Intardasting:

Kills
[15:07] <Fasader> last week on EU1,2,5
[15:08] <Fasader> One handed: 38369 (20.60%)
[15:08] <Fasader> Two handed: 72257 (38.79%)
[15:08] <Fasader> Polearms: 42647 (22.90%)
[15:08] <Fasader> Bow: 15466 (8.30%)
[15:08] <Fasader> Crossbows: 8220 (4.41%)
[15:08] <Fasader> Thrown: 1042 (0.56%)
[15:08] <Fasader> Headshot: 7221 (3.88%)
[15:08] <Fasader> Others: 1048 (0.56%)

Those 80% are pretty bad at using their xbows. Also lol at thrown.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: bosco on June 03, 2011, 03:27:57 pm
Well, one could argue that they only use the Xbow to damage their opponents up to a point where they can easily kill them with their melee weapon... :P
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Paul on June 03, 2011, 03:32:19 pm
Now they use health show hax too?

"Wait, that guy is almost dead. I'll better shoot the other, full health guy next to him and finish both off with my 2h sword."
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Fasader on June 03, 2011, 03:33:21 pm
Damn admin abusers!
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Konrax on June 03, 2011, 04:38:52 pm
I vote +1 for WPF requirement EXCEPT for 1 reason.

Agility build xbowmen with athletics 10.

Is it possible to implement dual requirements? Maintain the strength requirement and add a WPF requirement that also has to be met?

If that is possible then I would suggest going that method.

Xbows are pretty dang expensive too.... Extra armour helps more than a couple pew pews imo.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Native_ATS on June 03, 2011, 04:41:59 pm
Intardasting:

Kills
[15:07] <Fasader> last week on EU1,2,5
[15:08] <Fasader> One handed: 38369 (20.60%)
[15:08] <Fasader> Two handed: 72257 (38.79%)
[15:08] <Fasader> Polearms: 42647 (22.90%)
[15:08] <Fasader> Bow: 15466 (8.30%)
[15:08] <Fasader> Crossbows: 8220 (4.41%)
[15:08] <Fasader> Thrown: 1042 (0.56%)
[15:08] <Fasader> Headshot: 7221 (3.88%)
[15:08] <Fasader> Others: 1048 (0.56%)

Those 80% are pretty bad at using their xbows. Also lol at thrown.
Yah LOL at throwing, good job nerffing it to shit. Its really funny :rolleyes:
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This is my 2xheirloomed longbow at 130 wpf and 8pd.                                                                                                                  This is my MasterWork light xbow wat 0wpf and no PD(it is a skill-less weapon)
master work long bow dose about 36p base damg (i had to get 0melee and converted all skill into Attributes to even weild it)       Master work light xbow  deals 68p base damg, no converted points.I had like 9ps/9if/3ath/3wm/3 ride 130 wpf melee and 0wpf xbow
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Tomas_of_Miles on June 03, 2011, 05:00:25 pm
Yah LOL at throwing, good job nerffing it to shit. Its really funny :rolleyes:
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This is my 2xheirloomed longbow at 130 wpf and 8pd.                                                                                                                  This is my MasterWork light xbow wat 0wpf and no PD(it is a skill-less weapon)
master work long bow dose about 36p base damg (i had to get 0melee and converted all skill into Attributes to even weild it)       Master work light xbow  deals 68p base damg, no converted points.I had like 9ps/9if/3ath/3wm/3 ride 130 wpf melee and 0wpf xbow
Actually after my build "maturing" I find I can get a few kills here and there with throwing daggers and wardarts. If I really hunt peasants I can get stone kills  :mrgreen:. Throwing got nerfed pretty hard, but it isn't unplayable. Much like being an archer, you have to wait for the skills to get the kills, but I must say it is pretty fun.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Tzar on June 03, 2011, 05:40:59 pm
Intardasting:

Kills
[15:07] <Fasader> last week on EU1,2,5
[15:08] <Fasader> One handed: 38369 (20.60%)
[15:08] <Fasader> Two handed: 72257 (38.79%)
[15:08] <Fasader> Polearms: 42647 (22.90%)
[15:08] <Fasader> Bow: 15466 (8.30%)
[15:08] <Fasader> Crossbows: 8220 (4.41%)
[15:08] <Fasader> Thrown: 1042 (0.56%)
[15:08] <Fasader> Headshot: 7221 (3.88%)
[15:08] <Fasader> Others: 1048 (0.56%)

Those 80% are pretty bad at using their xbows. Also lol at thrown.

What you incompetent devs fail to see is that out of the 8220 xbow kills maybe only 2000 of less of em are from dedicated xbow users the rest of kills goes to boost the kdr of the polearm/2h/1h users using it as sidearm..... also does the headshot % goes under bows thrown and xbow statistic?

Also this still doenst justify for the easy use of the xbow and no skill investment.. plus the amount of ranged on the servers doenst rly add to the fun...

But nonetheless its clear that the devs use xbow em self as sidearm so i guess further complaints are useless
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: MadJackMcMad on June 03, 2011, 07:04:04 pm
What you incompetent devs fail to see is that out of the 8220 xbow kills maybe only 2000 of less of em are from dedicated xbow users the rest of kills goes to boost the kdr of the polearm/2h/1h users using it as sidearm..... also does the headshot % goes under bows thrown and xbow statistic?

Also this still doenst justify for the easy use of the xbow and no skill investment.. plus the amount of ranged on the servers doenst rly add to the fun...

But nonetheless its clear that the devs use xbow em self as sidearm so i guess further complaints are useless

Can you at least try to arrive at a conclusion through logical progression, rather than
simply assuming a conclusion and subsequently inventing bollocks to back it up.  Or in this
case, not even bothering with the latter.

(click to show/hide)

Crossbows are and were easy to use.  I like the idea suggested by Paul elsewhere, increasing the upkeep of crossbows dependant on the characters proficiency.  Crossbows are and were expensive contraptions.  This suggestion simulates a dedicated crossbowman's ability to service his weapon, with the added accuracy and reload speed which sets him apart from a character with no proficiency.  In essence it would be desirable that a character with no proficiency would struggle to ever make a profit while using a crossbow.  The small effectiveness with 1 proficiency I feel is conducive to reality and more importantly - to strategus.  Particularly in sieges where melee characters will be able to contribute instead of standing around like muppets.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Phew on June 03, 2011, 08:56:00 pm
So 80% of the players are spending ~30% of their upkeep and 50% of their slots on a weapon that yields 5% of the kills.

Buff Crossbows!
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Peasant_Woman on June 03, 2011, 08:56:50 pm
Crossbows are and were easy to use.  I like the idea suggested by Paul elsewhere, increasing the upkeep of crossbows dependant on the characters proficiency.  Crossbows are and were expensive contraptions.  This suggestion simulates a dedicated crossbowman's ability to service his weapon, with the added accuracy and reload speed which sets him apart from a character with no proficiency.  In essence it would be desirable that a character with no proficiency would struggle to ever make a profit while using a crossbow.

Now that really is a good idea. This will help to kill off 0 wpf crossbow sidearmers.

The small effectiveness with 1 proficiency I feel is conducive to reality and more importantly - to strategus.  Particularly in sieges where melee characters will be able to contribute instead of standing around like muppets.

On an unrelated note I always thought that was funny in strategus field battles; shield users get to put a brick on rmb and go afk, 2spammers and polederpers get to take a hunting crossbow+stack of bolts and pretend they're helping.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Damug on June 03, 2011, 09:11:02 pm
I use a light crossbow.  I put between 85-100 wpf points in it every generation.  I use it to dehorse cav and take potshots on people approaching me.  I'm part of the problem.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Tzar on June 04, 2011, 07:47:42 am
I'm part of the problem.

Ehh no your not....

The problem if you wouldn't mind to read is that it takes 1 wpf to use a xbow

Meaning that if u put a 100 points into it your not a part of the problem since everyone and their mother use the xbow as sidearm beacuse of the fact you need 0 skill investment to use it..
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: BlackMilk on June 04, 2011, 12:03:16 pm
So 80% of the players are spending ~30% of their upkeep and 50% of their slots on a weapon that yields 5% of the kills.
this.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: John on June 05, 2011, 12:13:00 am
To be fair, the 5% statistic is from a European server.  The few times I've actually played there, I've found that the number of crossbows is simply miniscule compared to North America (and the OP is from NA, after all.)  The last time I was on Blackrose in Texas, I counted 18 out of the 21 players were carrying either a bow or crossbow. 
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Patricia on June 05, 2011, 12:27:42 am
To be fair, the 5% statistic is from a European server.  The few times I've actually played there, I've found that the number of crossbows is simply miniscule compared to North America (and the OP is from NA, after all.)  The last time I was on Blackrose in Texas, I counted 18 out of the 21 players were carrying either a bow or crossbow.

I concur, I played extensively yesterday (2 hours instead of 5 minutes) and out of the 30 or so players, about 26 of them either had a bow or a crossbow.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Jacko on June 06, 2011, 01:28:38 pm
So you're saying this is an American problem..? 

 :lol:


Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Paul on June 06, 2011, 02:46:03 pm
It's not our problem if they love their Second Amendment so much that it influences the average player equipment over there. We unbalance around EU servers.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Memento_Mori on June 06, 2011, 03:06:17 pm
Even if you added wpp requirement to xbows, how hard is it to hybrid.. Most only go for about 130, 140 max in their primary weapon and will still have enough left over to put 100 into xbows and there we go same problem that you're describing except now they're more accurate and have 5-10 less wpp in their primary weapon.. Big woop? what exactly does this accomplish.... lol xD

just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Phew on June 06, 2011, 05:43:00 pm
Granted, I only play siege, so I don't know how all the x-bows affect battle.

But in siege, the x-bowers have no impact on the outcome of the match. People take pot-shots during the first minute or so, occasionally someone gets a lucky headshot, but it's not like bodies are falling left and right to the onslaught of bolts or anything. As soon as the attackers breech the walls, ranged is a liability for the defense, not an asset. I typically bring an xbow for my first D spawn, then don't bring it after I die once. It's just something to do while waiting for the attackers to breech, but I rarely get xbow kills.

1 shield skill opens up the 200 HP crappy board shield, which will last long enough to ascend any ladder, as long as no defenders are throwers (I haven't seen a thrower in weeks). I don't know why you can't do the same in battle; just bring a shield and nullify all of those x-bowers. Or bring your own X-bow and shoot other x-bowers while they reload. Your choice.
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Tzar on June 06, 2011, 06:49:48 pm
Even if you added wpp requirement to xbows, how hard is it to hybrid.. Most only go for about 130, 140 max in their primary weapon and will still have enough left over to put 100 into xbows and there we go same problem that you're describing except now they're more accurate and have 5-10 less wpp in their primary weapon.. Big woop? what exactly does this accomplish.... lol xD

just my 2 cents.

It accomplish that dedicated melee infantry users will be forced to waste wpf on xbows.

Also all str builds wich is alot % of the current player base will not be able to use a 100 wpf on xbow if they wanna be able to use their main weapon..

Problem is just that soo many hybrids from pre patch got a free heirloom respec and used their points on the regular xbow / steel bolts and now they bitch and try and come with useless arguments like yours as to why the regular xbow should be a 0 skill investment free shooter...

Just my 2 cents....
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Gurnisson on June 06, 2011, 07:19:41 pm
Just my 2 cents....

2 cents ain't worth anything... just like your opinions posts.

Small edit there, making it less rude
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Tzar on June 06, 2011, 08:58:22 pm
2 cents ain't worth anything... just like your opinions posts.

Small edit there, making it less rude

Idc im just saying it like it is not fault you cant handle it or agree with it....

Offcourse people will always defend their investments/preferred playstyle so....

Anyone who has ever wielded a xbow with 1 wpd knows its a joke that it doesn't take any skill investment besides gold to make use of em....

In the end troll me all you want honestly i couldn't careless m8
Title: Re: Pretty much 80 percent of all battle players use Crossbows
Post by: Joseph on June 06, 2011, 10:52:31 pm
Most of the time I let my crossbow behind me, because it slows me down realy bad. It's balanced in my opinion.