No, this is recent and thank you, this is what I'm looking for. I got all the factual stuff down and most of the paper written, I'm just looking for some opinions to get some creative juices flowing.
If you wouldn't mind a follow up, Are you religious lombard? If not, what is your personal meaning of life?
Counterpoint to Lombards (and do note this is not my own personal opinion, but devil's advocate is always useful):
Life is not something people consciously choose to partake in. It is quite literally forced on people at the moment of their birth. The idea that life is inherently valuable is simply a byproduct of evolution. To say that everyone must live as long as they possibly can disregards the notion that people should have freedom of will and thought. Moreover the idea that life is inherently good (i.e. enjoyable and worthwhile) is quite literally a humanly constructed moral value. Life as we see it in nature is neither good nor evil, it is neither worthwhile nor not worthwhile. It simply is. So to say that people should not be allowed to choose when and how they will die is tantamount to saying they should not have freedom of will.(click to show/hide)
Counterpoint to Lombards (and do note this is not my own personal opinion, but devil's advocate is always useful):
Life is not something people consciously choose to partake in. It is quite literally forced on people at the moment of their birth. The idea that life is inherently valuable is simply a byproduct of evolution. To say that everyone must live as long as they possibly can disregards the notion that people should have freedom of will and thought. Moreover the idea that life is inherently good (i.e. enjoyable and worthwhile) is quite literally a humanly constructed moral value. Life as we see it in nature is neither good nor evil, it is neither worthwhile nor not worthwhile. It simply is. So to say that people should not be allowed to choose when and how they will die is tantamount to saying they should not have freedom of will.(click to show/hide)
These are my personal feelings on the matter so I agree with this.
To say life is worthwhile assumes a great deal. And it denies people the ability to control their own self. If I or someone else wants to commit suicide, what's the problem with that? Why must it be constricted or denied?
Why should you be allowed to deny anyone the ability to take their own life, whether they are terminally ill or not. If someone wants to die, to stop them from being able to do so tramples upon their own choices.
Merely breathing isn't a miracle.. nor is it something that must be cherished for its own sake.
The usual counterpoint is when someone says what if your mother/father/wife/gf/sibling/cousin/etc committed suicide, wouldn't you want to stop them?
And the answer is twofold.. I absolutely would in the case of loved ones.. I also would not prevent them from doing so. When someone is at the edge that suicide is better than living even one more day, to try and force them to live against their own will.. is wildly selfish and arrogant.
It isn't any more arrogant and selfish than coddling people that have given up and allowing them a power trip via taking their own lives. Its a little tough to have "control" over anything once you've relinquished it by killing yourself.
Its control over their own lives. Yeah it ends once they killed themselves but that was the whole point.
And lol that its coddling to allow people control over when they die.
Right, but you are going to die someday anyway. Why not be on your own terms?
Its control for the few seconds/minutes that you're taking your own life. Once you're dead you can't even experience the concepts of freedom, control, or anything else for that matter.
Such a waste.
Its only a waste if you think its a waste.
And here's the thing, the people considering suicide... don't consider that its a waste.
And like Havelle just pointed out, we all die. Why does it matter if you die at 30 or 15 vs 70 or 90? To say "because its a waste" misses the point.
The thought process that by ending your existence you get a few seconds of control is the waste. Why not fight, even if the end result is futile? Why the "woe is me I'm giving up, I can finally have some control over my life by killing myself" crap?
I don't think suicide will always be a control issue, and modern 1st world life simply has different problems than struggle to survive societies. In the first world you do get everything you need handed to you, but the social structure is much more complicated and easier to lose footing which could lead one to want to take their lives. Say what you want, but the possibility of upward social mobility and how you struggle to move upward is a very important thing. Its very easy to hit a setback after you've worked so hard to move yourself upward. I would venture to say its harder to avoid loneliness and harder to secure a mate with the stronger social skills and status symbols you need to live in the first world.
Most people these days don't know how to struggle on. They give up, they fall back on whatever vice is available, or worse yet, this "freedom in death" mentality when in actuality you give up freedom of choice by killing yourself. I'm not sure what caused this weakness in society, nor do I know how to fix it.
At risk of sounding like a total bundle of sticks homo without getting into specifics, I'm no saint either. And yet I was able to find the strength to come back after hitting bottom. Why is this? Why can't others do this?
Because suicide is painless... it brings on many changes.. and I can take or leave it if I choose...
(props if you sang this in your head)
:shock:
Dafuq music is that, youtube that shit so I can wtf face
To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover'd country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action. - Soft you now!
The fair Ophelia! Nymph, in thy orisons
Be all my sins remember'd.
lol
now it makes sense
A good end to a good thread, thank you gentlemen
These are my personal feelings on the matter so I agree with this.
To say life is worthwhile assumes a great deal. And it denies people the ability to control their own self. If I or someone else wants to commit suicide, what's the problem with that? Why must it be constricted or denied?
Why should you be allowed to deny anyone the ability to take their own life, whether they are terminally ill or not. If someone wants to die, to stop them from being able to do so tramples upon their own choices.
Merely breathing isn't a miracle.. nor is it something that must be cherished for its own sake.
The usual counterpoint is when someone says what if your mother/father/wife/gf/sibling/cousin/etc committed suicide, wouldn't you want to stop them?
And the answer is twofold.. I absolutely would in the case of loved ones.. I also would not prevent them from doing so. When someone is at the edge that suicide is better than living even one more day, to try and force them to live against their own will.. is wildly selfish and arrogant.
[Talking from own experience]
When people have full controll over killing themselves without the feeling of repulsion, many people around us woulndt be alive, probably because they saw the opportunity and then, without hesistation, took their own lives. Hell, half of our community wouldnt be alive, being depressed loners without gf's and no social contact but this own community.
But in all seriousness. Everyone has a downfall in is life, it's almost impossible to not have that. people consider suicide at that point, but in the end, when it gets better they forget again. You just have to pass through it.
Most people these days don't know how to struggle on. They give up, they fall back on whatever vice is available, or worse yet, this "freedom in death" mentality when in actuality you give up freedom of choice by killing yourself. I'm not sure what caused this weakness in society, nor do I know how to fix it.
At risk of sounding like a total bundle of sticks homo without getting into specifics, I'm no saint either. And yet I was able to find the strength to come back after hitting bottom. Why is this?
I'm not religious. In having an understanding of both religious and non religious interpretations of suicide, and dealing with my own personal life, I couldn't really come to any other conclusion.
Fair enough, I'll play along.
You can't have freedom of thought and will, or any thoughts at all for that matter, if you're dead, something the suicidal should take into account. It all ends the moment you take your own life.
I see suicide as selfish escapism. You give up everything once you take your own life. No escape from the mean ol' world to enjoy if you're dead.
I'm doing a few paragraphs that are based off existential/nihilist viewpoints. I'm going to steal some of this just because you articulated it so well.
My personal opinion is that assisted suicide should be available from a certain age onwards, regardless of any illness. The procedure should be demanding and allowing no rash decisions of course, like doing multiple talks with a doctor psychologist over the course of half a year or even a year. Old people cost a lot of money to any society and for example Western-European society has and will have a disproportionate amount of old people for a while still. Is it morally defensible to spend tons of money on someone who doesn't want to live anymore, while this money could used to lighten the hefty tax burden of people that do want to live? On that note, societies should also realy stop spending tax money on 6 digit cost medical procedures to prolong the life of people over 80 years old.
On just suicide alone, I think that you are pretty bad at relativizing if you see the need to kill yourself as a young person in Western society and it is not a deed I find worthy of any respect. It's pretty easy to enjoy life, but then I am a cold-hearted asshole. Sure it is easily morally defensible as a personal right, but to protect people against poor decisions, the barriers for committing suicide under a certain age should not be reduced at all. Does anyone here taking the 'suicide is a right' route think that there should be assisted suicide for young people?
Which implies there are decisions that are not poor or are of worth. A sentiment I don't agree with. And its not really the point anyway even if it is a poor decision or something not to be respected.Of course poor decisions exist. If you ever regretted a decision you made, then it was a poor decision. You made a decision in the situation back then, without having all the information available and it later turned out to be a decision you had rather not made or made differently. I'd say suicides are often very poor decisions brought about by a temporary slump, mental illness or strong emotions that the person could regret later.
And its not a right.. its simply the ability to do so. Most people I run across think people should have freedom to make their own choices, for good or bad. Do you? If you do, why is suicide something someone should be stopped from doing? If its due to risk to other people, sure.. fine. Make a suicide booth or something. If its to protect people from themselves.. lol. That's a shame.You are stating right here that suicide is a choice and that nobody should take away that choice, so that implies it is an individual right in your eyes. Semantics aside, I do indeed think that people should not have the freedom to make spur of the moment decisions with indefinite results like, you know, death, because at certain points people really suck at making decisions. It is why you don't let kids decide if they want a tattoo and why someone who's completely emotionally exhausted shouldn't decide whether he should kill himself. They are not able to make a decision that they surely won't regret. You might not realize this, but the fact that you have to get a gun (which is pretty hard here), slit your wrists, find drugs to OD on or jump in front of a train are barriers to committing suicide. It could be made much easier if the government would assist, practically, but it would also be made more respectable culturally. I don't think they should, but what do you think?
If someone wants to die just let them die, this is coming from a person that has battled suicidal thoughts for almost his whole life.Why? As an American, born with more priviliges than 90% of the Earth's population, how can you not figure out a way to live that is preferable over nothing? I'd live a 1000 years if I had the choice, no doubt.
People with a mind like mine, there is no healing it the only escape is death. Why should they prolong their suffering any more than they should have to?they must continue to live to serve their masters :P
(click to show/hide)
People with a mind like mine, there is no healing it the only escape is death.
Of course poor decisions exist. If you ever regretted a decision you made, then it was a poor decision. You made a decision in the situation back then, without having all the information available and it later turned out to be a decision you had rather not made or made differently. I'd say suicides are often very poor decisions brought about by a temporary slump, mental illness or strong emotions that the person could regret later.
You are stating right here that suicide is a choice and that nobody should take away that choice, so that implies it is an individual right in your eyes. Semantics aside, I do indeed think that people should not have the freedom to make spur of the moment decisions with indefinite results like, you know, death, because at certain points people really suck at making decisions.
It is why you don't let kids decide if they want a tattoo and why someone who's completely emotionally exhausted shouldn't decide whether he should kill himself. They are not able to make a decision that they surely won't regret.
You might not realize this, but the fact that you have to get a gun (which is pretty hard here), slit your wrists, find drugs to OD on or jump in front of a train are barriers to committing suicide. It could be made much easier if the government would assist, practically, but it would also be made more respectable culturally. I don't think they should, but what do you think?
Why? As an American, born with more priviliges than 90% of the Earth's population, how can you not figure out a way to live that is preferable over nothing? I'd live a 1000 years if I had the choice, no doubt.
While I'm reasonably happy with my life, never was depressed or sth like that, 2 times in the past when I was completely drunk I've tried to kill myself, trying to jump out of the window and cutting my wrists. Fortunately my friends stopped me from it. Since then I don't drink vodka any more, it's bad for me :wink: But drunk or not, I guess it says something about your mind, trying to commit suicide without any real reason. Not sure what exactly though :P
If one has preferences towards life over death, then ofc you'll live a bit longer or want to. If you don't, you'll prefer death in whatever way you prefer to meet it.
what if i'm a necromancer and i like death but want to stay alive to command my minions? :?
why should we allow anyone to waste their box like that?
what if i'm a necromancer and i like death but want to stay alive to command my minions? :?
life is like a box of Chocolates, yes, you never know what your gonna get and you may find some really shitty pieces of chocolate in your box, but those shitty pieces don't ruin the rest of the box.
suicide is like throwing away that entire box, with no chance of getting it back. why should we allow anyone to waste their box like that?
If I had a terrible accident, which takes away my arms and legs, I wouldn't hesitate to press the triger, knowing my life is ruinned, and nothing into our current society is worthy anyway.
If i stop white-knighting enough to fully embrace the asshole within, frankly anyone stupid and ungrateful enough to actually do it is better off dead. Unfortunately, you dont get to choose your family or the people who care about you, so the ungrateful asshole may get what he wants but he'll have parents, siblings, friends or even dependents who didnt ask for that and have to live with that knowledge.
If some asshole i dont know kills himself right now this very instance, then ofc i'd give zero shits, but sincere condolences to the friends and family who deserved better. In your analogy, sure they can throw away their box because it's theirs, but what gives them the right to mess around with other people's boxes too? That's what suicide does, would the family's boxes ever be the same again? Wouldnt life be so much better if they could use timetravel to have a preemptive abortion and spare the rest of the world their ingratitude, they get the benefit of never existing whilst their potential family and friends are never harmed by their selfishness, if only that were possible i would be resoundingly and overwhelmingly in favour of it.
So if someone takes an action that they want to do but it messes with other peoples' lives in an emotional way, they should not do it?
If you believe that, then you truly have seen very little of what society has to offer.
If you believe that, then you truly have seen very little of what society has to offer.
And how can you weight that against being unconscious or dead? You don't know, and have no way to know what non-existence is like.
youre assuming that for every action that emotionally affects others. those negative emotions felt are gonna be equal to that of the death of someone you know?
that argument works both ways, they don't know either, so why should they disregard what life has to offer and do something so foolish?
'should not' depends on how much empathy they possess or how much they care about the people who's lives they'll be harming. If they're totally 100% selfish and dont care about those people, then of course i would not only acknowledge their right to go and die in a hole, i'd encourage it.
One thing they cannot do is take an action that hugely effects the people around them and say ''It's my choice, i am acting selflessly''. Dont let that stop them from removing themselves from my species, by all means, but i think that before they do it they should at least be honest with themselves about the consequences and what a piece of shit that makes them in the event that anyone in the world cares about them. You're not 'ending it all' by suiciding, you're passing on your suffering to the people who loved you, that's one hell of a selfish thing to do.
normative ethics: the thread(click to show/hide)
I don't get it (as a rational decision- I think I understand it as a symptom of mental dysfunction) at all. I mean, it is currently a non-disputed fact (I don't count religious explanations) that you're going to die.
normative ethics: the thread(click to show/hide)
I don't get it (as a rational decision- I think I understand it as a symptom of mental dysfunction) at all. I mean, it is currently a non-disputed fact (I don't count religious explanations) that you're going to die.
fine, agree-to-disagree. im going back to the fap thread, more pictures there
I don't get it (as a rational decision- I think I understand it as a symptom of mental dysfunction) at all. I mean, it is currently a non-disputed fact (I don't count religious explanations) that you're going to die.
If you ever say that suicide is selfish go ahead and do me a favor and eat a screwdriver.
So what is the worth of living longer when you don't want to? Is there even a way to show this in a logical argument?
Have anyone mentioned the single most critical issue with a suicide yet?.. Suicide is a one-way ticket to hell
I'll try and go in order from where i'm sitting:
Suicide is an extreme act, in that regard it is not so much a special act but one that sits at the extreme end of 'affecting other people'. Consider the spectrum of being a random jerk to people who care about you, but ofc at an extreme end. Of course it's hard to quantify or generalize and context is everything. You might weigh two different instances differently:(click to show/hide)
Yes they're 2 extremes. I dont draw the line anywhere, because you cant stop them and you certainly cant punish anyone after they're dead. What i feel is my own personal judgement of those people and their character, case 1 may or may not be something i would want to do, but case 2 is outright despicable. Maybe some dont see much of a difference, i feel from personal experience that although neither cases are particularly happy or good, it feels like the main Taboo and stigma lies along that distinction.
Again, there's no 'should be allowed' since you cant prevent an individual from doing it. Maybe my wording was clumsy if my last post contained expressions like that. I know full well that 'fairness' isnt a factor, a person is fully able to be born, given a nice upraising in a loving family, and go kill themself before their 18th birthday, 'sorry ma and pa, i just dont like living, but thanks for trying'. I think it's a shame people like that exist in the first place, but they do, and ofc i wouldnt propose any sort of structure or 'emotional police' to protect the family. If the would-be suicider was a decent human being he'd be doing that himself.
The suicide itself and the person doing it, does it need emphasis? Their part in it can last a few minutes if they wish that to be the case, they go and pop their clogs, permadeath is on, and then it's everyone else who actually suffers and they can suffer for a long time. If it did not occur to them before they died what impact it would have, they certainly wont have much chance for remorse after. Once again, you cant stop them from doing it, but you can discourage it, give it a stigma and certainly not make it 'easy' for them to do it. I would have no sympathy for case 2, but i would have immeasurably more sympathy for case 2's family than case 1's family.
*edit* what order would you view things from then?
*edit edit* eeeeeeuuuuuurgh, now i see your other post that wasnt in reply to mine but answered in more depth. Dont wanna replace segments of text-wall so it remains ignored till next post - but i did read it!
Some people think suicide is the only way to prove that you have free will over your natural behavior, but it doesn't prove anything as the decision to suicide still derives from your brain processes.Your logic doesn't make sense. Obviously those people don't mean "free will over your brain process." Natural is a pretty bad word to describe it, but what "some people" probably mean is that you have control over your evolution-programmed needs and desires, and aren't just a slave to your System 1 running in the background. Suicide is not "natural behavior", so their point is indeed proven.
Have anyone mentioned the single most critical issue with a suicide yet?.. Suicide is a one-way ticket to hell:
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While i am chilling on the left side, wearing golden armor, silk cape, and enjoying myself - suicidal fools are getting knocked over in a pit, tortured by all sorts of ugly-ass vampires, and getting raped by horny green dragons.
Alot of young people commit suicide because they simply feel they have noone to talk too about their problems. Its easy to judge them and say how they could of done it differently, but try and remember been a teenage and having that feeling that noone wanted to understand your problems, then add in what i can only presume is chronic depression and its not suprising that teenagers just "disappear" without saying goodbye.visitors can't see pics , please register or login
You dont? That surprises me. They feel like very different circumstances, one where a 'correct' procedure is followed to make sure they're of stable mental faculty and that their family is notified, the other a spur-of-the-moment thing which may stem from a manageable mental illness but they'll never know.
I am not saying that person X's feelings matter more than person Y. Only that i would expect as a human being, person Y would care about person X and not deliberately harm them, it's not my family, it's person Y's, if he has no natural desire to protect their feelings then i truly cannot understand him. Ofc it's more likely to be affecting persons A-Z rather than just person X, person Y was never so important in his whole life as the day he chose to end it. But i appreciate you cant stop them doing it, it's just a shame that they may think they're going to end it all and they're continuing to be useless even after death. If you're going to end it, doesnt it make sense to have a full appreciation of what you're doing first? If they're still willing to end it after they've put the thought in and truly understand who they're hurting and how, then like it said i'd be happy for them to go die.
What other aspect of suicide is there? Everyone has their reasons and circumstances, if we're discussing the act of suicide itself then where i'm at in this analogy is that the person is already there ready and willing to do it. The actual act of killing yourself makes up a tiny % of the whole process, the sucider's involvement is remarkably small and brief and they never have to witness what happens next. For the purposes of the debate i was working from the assumption that the suicider would suicide and end their own life due to some reasoning on their part, what more is there to discuss other than the fallout?
The point maybe i'm contesting the most is ''It's my life i can do what i want with it''. You asked in your earlier post if my argument about family/loved ones meant that people without anyone who'd miss them should be free to suicide. In my mind, that's a yes, if they literally have noone in the world who would miss them or care about them, then their life is undoubtedly 'their own' and their actions wouldnt harm anyone. But i dont think i've ever met anyone who's life was truly 100% 'their own'.
I dont believe my life is exclusively my own, sure from a physical point of view i can *do* whatever i want, but since when was 'I can physically do it and it's my body i can do what i want' any excuse for murder, or theft? When was the last time that your physical ability or desire to do something counted as justification in and of itself for anything? We arent born in a vacuum, we dont go into the wilderness to fend for ourselves the moment we're born, look around and you'll see people who have a personal stake in your life, people like your parents who have given up so much of theirs for your sake (if you want to look at this clinically, see that as an 'investment' on their part, they're 'investing' in you). If someone had dependents, like children or were a sole carer for someone, would you view their suicide differently? I certainly would, the moment you take physical responsibility for another human being your life is no longer *just* yours, i cannot understand how someone would have children and still maintain the illusion that their life was exclusively 'theirs'.
Equally, though you may not notice it until the very instance of tragic suicide or death, some people are emotionally dependent, and grief can do all sorts of things to people. You wouldnt beat up your own mum/mom would you? You'd be doing her less harm if you did smack her about and give her a bloody lip than if you committed suicide. I'm not saying anything like 'monitor person X, his mum/mom's feelings are more important than his', but how can you be human if as person X you have no desire to avoid harm to the people you love. I'm trying to find a more satisfying explanation than; 'They dont put that much thought into it and dont see any reason why their loved ones should care', 'They're selfish and dont care what their death does to others', or 'They lack basic human traits like empathy, that's how they're able to do it'.
Imagine you're going to kill yourself, you have everything you need in front of you and you're ready, before/as you go about your business do you think about these people? Do you justify your actions somehow? Do you try to avoid thinking about them? Do you just not care how they feel, are they somehow at fault for your current position and you're looking to punish them? Or do you lack basic human empathy, do you genuinely just sit there and think 'well it doesnt really effect their lives so there's no logical reason why they should care'? Or is this world unreal, nothing's real, the people you know are just constructs who'll 'stop' the moment you die. Which is closest to your thoughts at that point? Or would you think something different?
Standard suicide, as in people killing themselves by themselves, without any secondary help, are very selfish people. For first, they don't even care about the police, who will have to conduct a search and investigate, to confirm if it's really a suicide or if it's a murder. Oh, he left a note saying it's a suicide and all. Better check the handwriting,... And what about the medical department, having to verify the corpse, if it has any other wound. Is it a suicide because of working conditions, because of emotional conflict,.. ? Someone blowed his head off in his appartment ? I pity the worker who'll have to wash off all this blood. If only the dead could have done it in the bathroom, damn selfish bastard.Wow.
Wow.
Yes, better not kill yourself because, God forbid, some people will have to do their jobs if you do. That should indeed be your primary concern when you're having suicidal thoughts.
Have anyone mentioned the single most critical issue with a suicide yet?.. Suicide is a one-way ticket to hell:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
While i am chilling on the left side, wearing golden armor, silk cape, and enjoying myself - suicidal fools are getting knocked over in a pit, tortured by all sorts of ugly-ass vampires, and getting raped by horny green dragons.
Some major textwall construction in this thread, please show mercy :)Ive always woundered, but it might be just my Hollywood influenced mind, that how hard would it have been to just grapple on to the wall when theres no sentries around and get a couple of 100 determined guys up there? Cause it was around 5-8m tall, which is well tall, but not that much and considering that from some parts the terrain was rougher it might have even been less.(click to show/hide)
Standard suicide, as in people killing themselves by themselves, without any secondary help, are very selfish people. For first, they don't even care about the police, who will have to conduct a search and investigate, to confirm if it's really a suicide or if it's a murder. Oh, he left a note saying it's a suicide and all. Better check the handwriting,... And what about the medical department, having to verify the corpse, if it has any other wound
Police? Paid? What country are you from? xD