cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: SMEGMAR on January 04, 2014, 07:19:13 pm

Title: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: SMEGMAR on January 04, 2014, 07:19:13 pm
cRPG has waaay too many swords.
Please to add more maces, axes, goofy blunt weapons, and polearms.
It would also be nice if players were given more incentive to use weapons that aren't swords.
(click to show/hide)

Many love.
SMAGMAR.
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Miwiw on January 04, 2014, 07:24:43 pm
Well. Create models...
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Life on January 04, 2014, 07:26:50 pm
Well. Create models...
no. we are american. others must do the work for us!
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Smithy on January 04, 2014, 07:37:35 pm
It would also be nice if players were given more incentive to use weapons that aren't swords.

How I understand it, in reality spears, clubs, axes, etc were essentially peasant weapons, or the Poor Man's Choice.  As where swords were used by all who could afford them, often times knights or lords, and were made in many shapes and sizes, depending on the location I suppose.  There is already a decent incentive to use other weapons namely mechanics such as knockdown, bonus to shield, and often times, weight advantages.  Although I generally disagree with your post, I will say that I think swords should be more expensive, and a larger variety of auxiliary weapons should be available however at this point, there just isn't enough time in the day for the devs to meet all of these demands and make a new game simultaneously.
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: SMEGMAR on January 04, 2014, 07:42:24 pm
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Title: Re: Swords
Post by: SMEGMAR on January 04, 2014, 07:44:40 pm
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Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Life on January 04, 2014, 07:50:21 pm
i dont see what those screenshots are proving.
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Johammeth on January 04, 2014, 07:52:38 pm
i dont see what those screenshots are proving.

I guess it's some sworda comment on players' weapon selection.
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: SMEGMAR on January 04, 2014, 07:53:06 pm
How I understand it, in reality spears, clubs, axes, etc were essentially peasant weapons, or the Poor Man's Choice.  As where swords were used by all who could afford them, often times knights or lords, and were made in many shapes and sizes, depending on the location I suppose.  There is already a decent incentive to use other weapons namely mechanics such as knockdown, bonus to shield, and often times, weight advantages.  Although I generally disagree with your post, I will say that I think swords should be more expensive, and a larger variety of auxiliary weapons should be available however at this point, there just isn't enough time in the day for the devs to meet all of these demands and make a new game simultaneously.

Knockdown isn't worth shit nowadays with the euroslop roll mechanic.
Bonus to shield doesn't help you against swords. 3 directional axes (or anything for that matter) have no real edge over stabbing weapons.
Weight advantage means nothing when your opponents animations are insurmountably faster than yours.


"there just isn't enough time in the day for the devs to meet all of these demands and make a new game simultaneously"
They have time to add flambard, estoc, nudge, and roll. Wooooohoooo.
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: SMEGMAR on January 04, 2014, 07:53:52 pm
i dont see what those screenshots are proving.

Look at the killfeed throughout the day and tell me that at least 80% of kills aren't swords.
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Life on January 04, 2014, 07:59:46 pm
Look at the killfeed throughout the day and tell me that at least 80% of kills aren't swords.
i see a variety.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: SMEGMAR on January 04, 2014, 08:16:46 pm
sworda

Hoohoo.

i see a variety.
(click to show/hide)

There's pretty much a 3:1 sword to everything else ratio in the 1h and 2h weapon classes.
It's bad enough that they automatically outperform maces / axes, why must there be so many?

1h axe "variety":
(click to show/hide)

1h mace "variety":
(click to show/hide)

1h sword variety (and this doesn't even include the chunk of swords that don't have "sword" in their name):
(click to show/hide)


It's also a real fucking shame that as a horseman, I feel more threatened by swords than polearms.
It's also a real fucking shame that the best polearm (the estoc) is a two handed sword.
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Tydeus on January 04, 2014, 08:32:11 pm
Where the hell did you guys find the melee only servers? Are you even playing crpg?
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: SirCymro_Crusader on January 04, 2014, 08:59:19 pm
Come to EU and all you see is Bow and Crossbow notifications of death :(

It's like playing in front of a firing squad  :cry:
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Life on January 04, 2014, 09:01:33 pm
yeah, i went to EU a few days ago and i left after the 2nd map. longbows and horsearchers galore.
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: _GTX_ on January 04, 2014, 09:09:53 pm
Well. Create models...

This comment pretty much says it all. The devs will possibly listen to your feedback, it is entirely up to them. All you do after that comment is made, is to continue whining. Which leads us to the next comment, which also seems fitting to this situation.

no. we are american. others must do the work for us!

I have also seen a huge increase in polearm and 1 hand users. The 1 hand users has a huge percentage of them using knockdown on EU servers, instead of swords. And last but not least the ranged, which is commented on above. So in my opinion there has never been this few sword users in some time.
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Tibe on January 04, 2014, 09:15:33 pm
Swords are more prefered, it's what the public wants. Honestly, id say the axevariation is good enough. I mean they are just axes. The macevariation? I dont know. I lack of a single opinion when it comes to maces.
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Sari on January 04, 2014, 09:25:27 pm
moar axes :D
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: The_Pony_Spencki_and_Dana on January 04, 2014, 09:52:00 pm
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NA easymode!
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Life on January 04, 2014, 09:55:17 pm
NA easymode!
nah, just heavy cav with a 2h   :P
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: SMEGMAR on January 04, 2014, 11:03:35 pm
nah, just heavy cav with a 2h   :P

That's on foot, so was this.
(click to show/hide)

whining

I've played with said weapons for gens, it's not whining to recognize something as sickeningly easy.
Also disregarding your post because you're a dedicated 2h euromy old friend.

Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Jarold on January 04, 2014, 11:17:35 pm
I can tell you were playing siege by that kill feed!  :twisted:
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: SMEGMAR on January 04, 2014, 11:28:19 pm
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Title: Re: Swords
Post by: SMEGMAR on January 04, 2014, 11:29:40 pm
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Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Jarold on January 04, 2014, 11:44:23 pm
These pictures just prove that the community loves using swords. So adding more axes and maces in won't change anything.
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: SMEGMAR on January 04, 2014, 11:56:45 pm
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Title: Re: Swords
Post by: SMEGMAR on January 04, 2014, 11:58:01 pm
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Title: Re: Swords
Post by: _GTX_ on January 04, 2014, 11:59:04 pm
Those screenshots is the most ridiculous way of proving a point. You could easyly have waited for the right opportunity to take the screenshot, which simply means waiting for the 2h class to kill a few.

Dedicated euro 2h my old friend? Well i dont see how my point is strengthening my 2h class in any way. I am not asking for a buff, and i am not asking for more 2-handed swords either. I am just saying that your whining is a bit ridiculous in my opinion. You will obviously continue posting screenshots and whine, until someone does something about it.
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: SMEGMAR on January 04, 2014, 11:59:45 pm
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These pictures just prove that the community loves using swords. So adding more axes and maces in won't change anything.

It would also be nice if players were given more incentive to use weapons that aren't swords.
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: NuberT on January 05, 2014, 12:10:05 am
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Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Canuck on January 05, 2014, 12:13:59 am
Those pictures.. they're all like months old. I see more poles and ranged than anything now. Arguing with smegmar is not worth the time though

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Lord_Bernie_of_Voodoo on January 05, 2014, 01:16:50 am
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#swordvalour
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Lord_Kitazawa_of_Voodoo on January 05, 2014, 01:30:14 am
Nerf swords, nerf magic shield aura, nerf nomad bow, nerf tatar bow, buff longbow.
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Smithy on January 05, 2014, 01:33:23 am
Nerf swords, nerf magic shield aura, nerf nomad bow, nerf tatar bow, buff longbow.

Nerf tears, they're everywhere on the forum, we need more variety.
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Lord_Kitazawa_of_Voodoo on January 05, 2014, 01:38:51 am
Nerf tears, they're everywhere on the forum, we need more variety.

Just kidding, m8.  Just kidding.
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Sari on January 05, 2014, 01:54:34 am
On my main, I have almost every 1h axe(except One Handed Battle Axe) like the hatchet and Hand Axe to the Broad One Handed Battle Axe. But I'm not going to get the two iron axes(they ugly) :D
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Tydeus on January 05, 2014, 03:49:18 am
Those screenshots is the most ridiculous way of proving a point. You could easyly have waited for the right opportunity to take the screenshot, which simply means waiting for the 2h class to kill a few.

Dedicated euro 2h my old friend? Well i dont see how my point is strengthening my 2h class in any way. I am not asking for a buff, and i am not asking for more 2-handed swords either. I am just saying that your whining is a bit ridiculous in my opinion. You will obviously continue posting screenshots and whine, until someone does something about it.
Welcome to HoC. I suggest not getting involved.

I'm pretty sure just about every single axe has been buffed in the last year.
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Penitent on January 05, 2014, 06:14:43 am
we need more 1h hammers
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: SP1N on January 05, 2014, 07:39:10 am
Flails, because.
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: SMEGMAR on January 05, 2014, 08:15:43 pm
I am the harbinger of equilibrium, tremble before me.
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Johammeth on January 05, 2014, 08:45:36 pm
In my (very) limited experience with 1h weapon types, I'm wondering why I would ever choose an axe over the steel pick.

Crushing shields can be helpful, but 34 swinging pierce damage with 3 directions is just obscene.

That said, bonking  someone with the fighting axe does feel awesome.
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: SMEGMAR on January 05, 2014, 11:33:02 pm
In my (very) limited experience with 1h weapon types, I'm wondering why I would ever choose an axe over the steel pick.

Crushing shields can be helpful, but 34 swinging pierce damage with 3 directions is just obscene.

That said, bonking  someone with the fighting axe does feel awesome.

Why would you use ANY three directional over a 4 directional sword? The stab is the only attack worth using now thanks to Tydefriend.
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Sari on January 05, 2014, 11:45:26 pm
Why would you use ANY three directional over a 4 directional sword? The stab is the only attack worth using now thanks to Tydefriend.

Cause Axe! :D
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Clockworkkiller on January 05, 2014, 11:52:12 pm
Look all you need is more warhammers


Ladies love warhammers
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Rebelyell on January 06, 2014, 12:01:31 am
Welcome to HoC. I suggest not getting involved.

I'm pretty sure just about every single axe has been buffed in the last year.
Mighty Great Bardiche
Type:Two handed weapon
Requirement:18 strength
Weight:3.4
Slots:2
Upkeep:519 gold
Speed:90
Length:116
Swing:50 cut
Bonus against shield

Unbalanced

Mighty Great Axe
Type:Two handed weapon
Requirement:15 strength
Weight:3.4
Slots:2
Upkeep:490 gold
Speed:95
Length:96
Swing:49 cut
Bonus against shield

Unbalanced

swords are good 1v1 "allarounders"
but for battle axes are tha best
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Smithy on January 06, 2014, 12:58:23 am
Why would you use ANY three directional over a 4 directional sword? The stab is the only attack worth using now thanks to Tydefriend.

This just proves your lack of understanding when it comes to how weapons and their mechanics actually function in this game.  Tydeus did not make stabs "OP" or, "the only viable attack direction" as you and so many others have come to believe.  Everything has advantages and disadvantages.
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Sari on January 06, 2014, 01:03:55 am
This just proves your lack of understanding when it comes to how weapons and their mechanics actually function in this game.  Tydeus did not make stabs "OP" or, "the only viable attack direction" as you and so many others have come to believe.  Everything has advantages and disadvantages.

With stab being "OP", everybody now days stabs. So it's easy fighting them, just like fighting a hoplite. Down Block!  8-)
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Prpavi on January 06, 2014, 01:05:01 am
As a 2D polearm user, I can say stabs are OP
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Jona on January 06, 2014, 08:26:26 am
This just proves your lack of understanding when it comes to how weapons and their mechanics actually function in this game.  Tydeus did not make stabs "OP" or, "the only viable attack direction" as you and so many others have come to believe.  Everything has advantages and disadvantages.

You clearly don't watch riran or tretter fight much, do you?
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Dionysus on January 06, 2014, 08:45:58 am
I assume you're exclusively talking about one-handed weapons, and I think seeing an increase in their use would mean buffing their stats. The only two maces I often see used by players are the Spathovaklion and the Iberian. Why bother using the Winged, Spiked*, Knobbed*, Iron, or Flanged Maces?

As for axes, I see them all used to some degree, particularly as an auxiliary to a sword. The sword is otherwise just a superior weapon.
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: owens on January 06, 2014, 10:51:36 am
^This

When a few maces are far better than the rest only a few will be used. I suggest increasing the stat diversity of maces. Damage and speed are the only things that need to be changed so why not.
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Corsair831 on January 06, 2014, 11:06:41 am
imo remove weapons altogether

we can just use nudge and kick to kill everyone, it'll be 98.4% fun
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Nightmare798 on January 06, 2014, 11:14:20 am
^This

When a few maces are far better than the rest only a few will be used. I suggest increasing the stat diversity of maces. Damage and speed are the only things that need to be changed so why not.

Price? Reach? Cost? Speed?
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Teeth on January 06, 2014, 11:19:31 am
This just proves your lack of understanding when it comes to how weapons and their mechanics actually function in this game.  Tydeus did not make stabs "OP" or, "the only viable attack direction" as you and so many others have come to believe.  Everything has advantages and disadvantages.
Stabs are the fastest attack, often the highest damage attack, the longest attack, the easiest to aim past teammates and stabs benefit the most from speed bonus. Stabs are OP and the biggest source of frustration for me in the game currently.
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Nightmare798 on January 06, 2014, 11:50:28 am
cRPG has waaay too many swords.
Please to add more maces, axes, goofy blunt weapons, and polearms.
It would also be nice if players were given more incentive to use weapons that aren't swords.
(click to show/hide)

Many love.
SMAGMAR.

You forget picks, hammers and clubs. And I am sure as hell that spathovaklion doesnt show when you type "mace,, in the shop weapon name.
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Sniger on January 06, 2014, 01:10:41 pm
sword is just the best allround weapon thus preferred by majority = many swords

Stabs are the fastest attack, often the highest damage attack, the longest attack, the easiest to aim past teammates and stabs benefit the most from speed bonus. Stabs are OP and the biggest source of frustration for me in the game currently.

but its almost the only cav defense for a 1h
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Corsair831 on January 06, 2014, 06:37:23 pm
Stabs are the fastest attack, often the highest damage attack, the longest attack, the easiest to aim past teammates and stabs benefit the most from speed bonus. Stabs are OP and the biggest source of frustration for me in the game currently.

i couldn't agree more

watching dieler / polepoop / teeth (although they are the best players to use as an example of this) jumping around in full tincan

(the idea of tincan is that you're supposed to be slow, am i right)

and yet, having a weapon with extremely long range, extremely high damage, and being instant (polearm/2h/1h stabs are absolutely instant, no left, right, or up swing can outspeed them)

if any of these guys, with the armour levels and WPF they use, were using a swing instead of a stab, they would not get nearly as many kills (although like i say they are good players), their weapons would be very slow (like they should be in full tincan armour)

It's just a complete joke that someone can wear extremely high armour, and yet the second he uses a polearm/2h/1h stab, even with a mostly STR build, he's faster than my left/right/up swing with a weapon with ~~ 15-20 more weapon speed, a gambeson as my armour, and 9 weapon master.
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: San on January 06, 2014, 06:41:52 pm
Maybe if jumping doesn't let you outpace someone with much more athletics than you?
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Corsair831 on January 06, 2014, 06:50:16 pm
Maybe if jumping doesn't let you outpace someone with much more athletics than you?

i don't think that's the problem, i think the problem is that stabs just don't require much WPF to massively outspeed every other attack direction, as well as do more damage and have a longer range

it's pretty dumb imo
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Mr.K. on January 06, 2014, 06:53:57 pm
sword is just the best allround weapon thus preferred by majority = many swords

but its almost the only cav defense for a 1h

Why should 1H have a attack to defend against cav? What exactly can 1H cav attack now head on? And no, I'm not saying 1H cav is hard
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Macropus on January 06, 2014, 07:02:06 pm
Stabs are the fastest attack, often the highest damage attack, the longest attack, the easiest to aim past teammates and stabs benefit the most from speed bonus. Stabs are OP and the biggest source of frustration for me in the game currently.
This.
It's just too easy to land a stab.
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Sari on January 06, 2014, 11:57:01 pm
I assume you're exclusively talking about one-handed weapons, and I think seeing an increase in their use would mean buffing their stats. The only two maces I often see used by players are the Spathovaklion and the Iberian. Why bother using the Winged, Spiked*, Knobbed*, Iron, or Flanged Maces?

As for axes, I see them all used to some degree, particularly as an auxiliary to a sword. The sword is otherwise just a superior weapon.

I know axes are mostly auxiliary weapons but I still use swords a lot more than axes. I've seen EyeBeat(sorry if I spelled it wrong) would use axes to break the shield of the enemy than switch to a sword to finish the job off.
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Johammeth on January 07, 2014, 12:02:04 am
Stabs are effective because having a metal object shoved through your body at high velocity is extremely bad for your health.
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Sari on January 07, 2014, 02:02:03 am
Stabs are effective because having a metal object shoved through your body at high velocity is extremely bad for your health.

Oh, I was thinking that was a good thing but thanks for telling me :wink:
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Macbeth3 on January 07, 2014, 04:06:10 pm
For me, Since I'm using 0 slot weapons, I'm a bit backed into a corner when it comes to weapon choice. The best 0 slot weapons are (at the moment) Swords and only swords. Short swords, yes but still Swords.

But ontop of that, I do like swords more simply because of the general reach they provide compared to axes or maces. I think that's one of the things people get attracted to, Reach.

The stab is usually nice against cav aswell. I woudn't be able to deal with cav in a melee situation with the hand axe or pickaxe. Meow :3
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Jona on January 07, 2014, 11:19:05 pm
I think it is quite evident what needs to be done... all axes must be given a 30p stab by attaching a nice and pointy spike on the top of each and every one of them. Perhaps then players will suddenly realize their long-forgotten love for axes, and then you will see more players preferring axes in the future.

Or you could of course get creative with the models...

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Clockworkkiller on January 07, 2014, 11:23:43 pm
Warhammer master 1h weapon
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Penitent on January 07, 2014, 11:32:06 pm
Warhammer master 1h weapon

Damn right!
Can't touch this.


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Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Nightmare798 on January 08, 2014, 01:36:23 pm
Stabs are effective because having a metal object shoved through your body at high velocity is extremely bad for your health.

What about rocket dildos?
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Nightmare798 on January 08, 2014, 01:37:00 pm
I think it is quite evident what needs to be done... all axes must be given a 30p stab by attaching a nice and pointy spike on the top of each and every one of them. Perhaps then players will suddenly realize their long-forgotten love for axes, and then you will see more players preferring axes in the future.

Or you could of course get creative with the models...

(click to show/hide)

Thats a polearm...
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Jona on January 09, 2014, 02:04:44 am
Thats a polearm...


Your point?
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: owens on January 09, 2014, 09:41:39 am
a few battle/cavalry axes had spikes on top. Especially asian battle axes.
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Nightmare798 on January 09, 2014, 11:02:11 am

Your point?

Trying to stab something with a spike on an axe or mace would be terribly slow and cumbersome, because weapons like these were made to deliver a heavy cutting/crushing hit, mostly at expense of stamina and speed. You just simply cant stab with something as unbalanced as that, unless the head of the weapon is extremely small, in which case you will lose weight, and thus damage.
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Macbeth3 on January 09, 2014, 01:41:02 pm
Maybe they could implement some kind of "axe" that has a pointy end, but the axe itself has only a relativly small blade compared to normal axes.

Lenght of 70 maybe.
Cutting swing damage: 32 (bonus against shield)
Pierce stab damage: 20. 19
Weight: 2.4
Price: Around 8k, Perhaps. Maybe higher if people think so.
Speed should be slower then normal axes. A stab with such a weapon wouldn't be as fast as compared to a sword. Maybe A speed of 97?

Now you've got an axe that is a bit more varied, and it having a (bit crappy) stab, more people would use it? (It's just brainstorming that i'm doing here, nothing serious)

*Meow* :3
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Nightmare798 on January 09, 2014, 03:16:13 pm
Maybe they could implement some kind of "axe" that has a pointy end, but the axe itself has only a relativly small blade compared to normal axes.

Lenght of 70 maybe.
Cutting swing damage: 32 (bonus against shield)
Pierce stab damage: 20. 19
Weight: 2.4
Price: Around 8k, Perhaps. Maybe higher if people think so.
Speed should be slower then normal axes. A stab with such a weapon wouldn't be as fast as compared to a sword. Maybe A speed of 97?

Now you've got an axe that is a bit more varied, and it having a (bit crappy) stab, more people would use it? (It's just brainstorming that i'm doing here, nothing serious)

*Meow* :3

I dont like that bonus against shield bit. There is a good reason why axes cant stab and that is (besides the obvious realism limitations) that they have bonus against shields. Having an axe with 32c and 20p stab with BAS stinks of unbalance.
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Grumbs on January 09, 2014, 03:30:27 pm
Don't think pierce gets penetration bonus against shields, so would 20 pierce with shield bonus be like 40 cut without shield bonus? While the swing would do 64. Stabbing against a shield will give you thrust stun too

Not saying I think its a good idea, just might not be as OP as it might look
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: Macbeth3 on January 09, 2014, 03:47:12 pm
I dont like that bonus against shield bit. There is a good reason why axes cant stab and that is (besides the obvious realism limitations) that they have bonus against shields. Having an axe with 32c and 20p stab with BAS stinks of unbalance.

I was simply like, trying to make an axe-version of a Warhammer. Nothing serious tough.   :3
I mean, I know that THE selling point of axes is the bonus against shield, and In general, the high "raw/scaling" damage it can provide. Especially with high PS builds. But yeah. people could just use a second 1h weapon as an axe, They'd just have to switch up weapons sometime. BAS and high cutting damage is what distinguish axes from all the rest. Compare 32 cut with other axes, it's not really strong. and 20 pierce isn't as big either. You can ofcourse go as low as 18 pierce, to be honest. :3

Also, (not 100% sure if this is the case) but I don't think the stab benefits from the BAS. Never really tested it out with, for example, a poleaxe.
The main thing I'm trying to achieve here is more variaty for axe-users. The problem with that is, that it's really hard to achieve something like that without someone concidering a certain aspect OP or Unbalanced. Besides, it's not mine/our job to judge things like that. It's the Item balancers and devs that do it.

1 thing I do know: IF there are more weapons implemented, I do hope it's not mainly swords, But maces and axes. Especially for 1h and 2h.
Pole seems to have a relatively balanced arsenal for everything.

Just my 2 Cents/meow's

*Meow* :3
Title: Re: Swords
Post by: SMEGMAR on January 09, 2014, 08:14:36 pm
Are you people fucking serious? Adding stabs to 3 directionals is about the dumbest fucking thing anyone could suggest.
It would sure follow the cRPG trend though. I give up on this european slop.

I can't wait until M:BG, there will be no horses or ranged, there will only be swords and we'll only have one attack direction.
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: Macbeth3 on January 09, 2014, 08:45:23 pm
Wasn't this thread supposed to be about the "too many swords" and "needs more mace and axe"?
Why does this poll make it seem like it turned into "I hate stabs"?

And what does this last Poll option supposed to be?

*Confused meow* :3
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: SMEGMAR on January 09, 2014, 08:51:07 pm
I think stabs are fine on polearms, this is because polearms exist to fucking stab.
There is a disproportionate ammount of swords on the field because they are simply easier to use than anything else.
2h stab was always the bread & butter exploit, and 1h recently received a much needed, yet terribly executed buff to thrust.
This game is about one weapon type and one attack direction, but most people don't seem to mind.
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: Smithy on January 09, 2014, 09:15:02 pm
Dick Cheese Smegma, I think you need to go back to your troll cave (mom's basement) and stop complaining about everything, then trying to go back and change your mind about what you were complaining about.  You're just fatting up the forums.
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: Jack1 on January 09, 2014, 09:23:48 pm
There needs to be 0 slot maces and picks IMO.

That is all.

如果你能讀這個你聞起來像尿
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: SMEGMAR on January 09, 2014, 09:32:48 pm
Dick Cheese Smegma, I think you need to go back to your troll cave (mom's basement) and stop complaining about everything, then trying to go back and change your mind about what you were complaining about.  You're just fatting up the forums.

Leave it to remnant, the ardent defenders of easymode equipment. I hope your house burns down is comfortable and well maintained, my old friend friend.
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: AntiBlitz on January 09, 2014, 09:46:17 pm
Leave it to remnant, the ardent defenders of easymode equipment. I hope your house burns down is comfortable and well maintained, my old friend friend.

bu bu but, they like carrying longswords and xbows, its tough out there these days, and this is the easiest way to get on the killboard.
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: the real god emperor on January 09, 2014, 10:18:29 pm
Why there isnt any polls for asia, f that.
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: Ronin on January 09, 2014, 10:22:29 pm
Why there isnt any polls for asia, f that.
But we consider ourselves european don't we :wink:

Maybe change it to america/eurasia? Hey it still starts with "EU" at least.


About axes, all I would want about them is; 25% armor penetration. Axes are useful against armor realistically.
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: the real god emperor on January 09, 2014, 10:26:44 pm

About axes, all I would want about them is; 25% armor penetration. Axes are useful against armor realistically.

They have to be extremely faster but unbalanced aswell
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: SMEGMAR on January 09, 2014, 10:50:10 pm
But we consider ourselves european don't we :wink:

Maybe change it to america/eurasia? Hey it still starts with "EU" at least.


About axes, all I would want about them is; 25% armor penetration. Axes are useful against armor realistically.


Look at that shit right there, an actual suggestion, some quality fucking posting right there.
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: Macbeth3 on January 09, 2014, 11:15:42 pm
Look at that shit right there, an actual suggestion, some quality fucking posting right there.

So you want your axes to be maces when it comes to ignoring armor, with Bonus damage against shield, and without the knockdown. Doing 35 damage?

Ha... Hahaha...   :)

Wait, you're serious, aren't you?!  :o

... Hahahahaha!  :D

You do realise that axes have this high Cutting damage value, because cutting damage is weak against armor in this game, right?! It's how the devs balanced it. if you'd then give the armor penetration power of a mace (or piercing weapon), then you'd have to bring the damage of axes down, thus negating the whole effect of the buff and turning them weaker against low-armored enemies. Ontop of that, because of their higher base damage values, they scale WAY better with PS then other weapons do. Most of the time, it's the prefered weapon of Strenght Powerhouses in this game.

In a game like this, people DO try to balance it, even if some people cannot see it.

I'm all up for adding more different types of axes and maces. Maybe a more powerfull longer one. Maybe one with a little stab (like a long axe polearm). But the thing with axes and maces is, you Really can't be very creative with these type of weapons weapons. I wish we could havesome more types of them, but I don't see much what we could do different.  :?

It would be nice if people could find more info about different type of axes that were used troughout the whole world.

*Meow* :3

-EDIT- Woudn't a pure 1-handed version of a Morningstar do the trick?! Same as the 2handed version, but slightly shorter, and a a little less damage. It would have pierce damage(wich ignores armor better then Cut) and Bonus against shield aswell?! It would have to be slow-ish to be balanced. See?! I can make suggestions too! :3
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: Macbeth3 on January 09, 2014, 11:16:50 pm
Double post... pressed quote instead of Modify on previous post  :(

*Meow* :3
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: SMEGMAR on January 10, 2014, 12:18:01 am
Wait, you're serious, aren't you?!  :o

*Meow* :3
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: Ronin on January 10, 2014, 12:21:35 am
I don't understand why you react in such an extreme way :?

Of course the damage would have to be toned down a bit (making them to have the same damage of cut swords with this bonus). But at the moment, axes have secondary modes which allow them to be switched between cut and pierce. It is quite good at the moment, I merely suggested some kind of other way.

Axes being strong and unbalanced weapons, could make them more interesting actually. Cutting damage isn't all that great, most of the time the alternative mode is better. Or better, just get a pick to get the job done at the first place. Shieldbreaking is mostly useful if you're teamworking with an archer/crossbowman. If I want cut damage, I'd prefer swords because they are longer, faster and have a strong multipurpose thrust attack. Long Swords are also better with STR builds, as 1h axes tend to be short. For a 21/15 shielder build, I'd better grab a nordic champion sword.


I wasn't serious much, it looks like a bit too much work for a little gain from my perspective. Otherwise I would have created a thread in suggestions forum already.
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: Macbeth3 on January 10, 2014, 12:37:30 am
I don't understand why you react in such an extreme way :?

Is this directed to me or Smegmar? :o

Anyway. I'd really love axes and maces to be used more compared to swords. Sadly, there is no reason for me, personsally to use one with the build I'm using since my build depends on a 0-slot weapon to be used. Whoever relies on these type of weapons that has some damage, HAS to use a sword. Most of the type it's Xbow hybrids, Hopelites and even archers that have to use those.

On EU1, A decent chunck of dedicated shielders and pole-users, do use a form of axe as their primary attack.

*Meow* :3
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: SMEGMAR on January 10, 2014, 12:47:24 am
Axes, spears, and maces should feel like there's more "oomph" to them, they should get something to appropriately match the killing power of swords.
Knockdown and bonus vs shield just don't cut it.
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: Macbeth3 on January 10, 2014, 12:51:37 am
Just wondering. You're talking mainly about 1-handers, right?!

If I may ask, how do you think about axes and Blunt weapons in the 2h and Pole-department, compared to 2h swords (and spears?)

We could never give maces and axes the same raw power as their 2h counterparts. Otherwise they're would not be any reason to go for 2h/pole other then reach.

I understand what you say, Smegmar. But the problem about this issue is simple. The solution, is not.
HOW could we achieve 1 handed axes and maces, beeing more favored by people, without it Devaluing swords or making Axes and maces to strong? At it's current state, most people will favor the sword.

The current reason someone takes a mace are: knockdown, and very high armor penetration, and rarely glances.
The current reason someone takes an axe: Breaks shield and high base damage compared to swords.
The current reason someone takes a sword: They are all-arounders that perform good in every situation.

You can ofcourse correct me if I'm wrong with these statements. I don't pretend to know it all. In fact, I'm Probably stating pretty standard and obvious things. But right now, I just see no way to make people use more axes and maces (1h)
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: Dionysus on January 10, 2014, 12:52:33 am
Axes, spears, and maces should feel like there's more "oomph" to them

I think axes and spears already have enough "oomph" to them, but the maces are very underpowered. Buff the stats of the maces, but leave swords alone. They are supposed to be more effective at killing, and that's why they don't need a bonus against shields or knockdown.

Axes...
Knockdown and bonus vs shield just don't cut it.

Heh heh heh...
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: Armycook_of_KSantiago on January 10, 2014, 12:53:45 am
vote the last one because that's the only thing I understood
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: Macbeth3 on January 10, 2014, 01:01:51 am
I'm actually glad there is some form of conversation/debate regarding this topic, with people explaining their point of view rather then just random "Buff this, nerf that".

Conversation. Once that's gone, what do we have left in life?!

*Meow*

Also, Cya tomorrow. I'm off to bed :3
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: Shaksie on January 10, 2014, 01:02:45 am
To my shame I agree with quite a bit of the stuff that's been said.
This post is probably directed more at M:BG because I doubt these recommendations could be acommodated
I think 1h stabs are pretty grossly overpowered, this could be fixed if they had a longer wind up time and less reach. This would prevent people walking around holding their stabs and outranging 2h swords, but it would also stop being from spam stabbing in fights.

Also, I think the idea of giving different penetration values for different items is a very good idea. From my little experience I'd say that axes should be faster, unbalanced but have some armor penetration rating and give a fair amount of stun when hits are landed and long ones would be heavy and unwieldly.

Similarly I think maces wouldn't be this slow but they would be unwieldy (unbalanced could show this) and short. Also I don't see why they hurt so much, yes bashing someone's armor in would be more effective than trying to chop it but I think the idea of temporary damage (listed in some thread somewhere) would be good. Knockdown is reasonably spastic and I think it's a terrible idea.
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: Ronin on January 10, 2014, 01:09:21 am
Well, I think only 2 class really can think of using 1h axes:

1-Shielders: Most of the time, maces or picks are better than their short cutting counterparts. If a shielder is getting str mostly, swords seem better. If more agi, picks seem better. If balanced, I'd say maces are better.
2-Swashbucklers: Well, I think swashbucklers are good to go with anything depending on their stat distribution. Still, the same dilemma. Maybe balanced builds can make use of axes with some good STR values, as you said it scales well. However, STR also gives more knockdown chances for maces so I'd simply pick them. By the way, I really like thrust oriented swords as a swashbuckler though. I think the class excels mostly with those weapons.

Sidenote: Don't forget that pierce damage glances less at low damage ratings, compared to blunt damage. That's why picks are I think better for AGI builds.

 Axes don't give that good damage compared to the reach loss. Also don't forget that people who wear light armor are faster, so it is almost always better to fight with a sword against them. Against heavy or medium armored, picks or maces are better anyway. Axes are maybe only good when used to assist teammates. Removing someone shieldless is not important in 1v1, but it can be useful in 5v5. People invest skill points to use a shield, and you simply negate that with a few blows. Shields can block more than 1 directions at the same time, but a weapon can't. Same goes for an arrow.

I don't really think axes are good for cavalry. They are a bit too short I think.

I think axes are fine balancewise. The fact that they can be switched, make them good all arounders too. What I propose don't have that much with the game-balance actually. It is more about game-design. Some low armor penetration rating (a little damage reducement will be needed of course) would make them maybe best suited against medium armor. For light armor, swords would be better, because of good speed and reach. For heavy armor, picks or maces would be better, because of higher armor penetration.
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: Grumbs on January 10, 2014, 05:02:51 am
The problem is that 1 hand swords are OP. The stab and speed is just too good when you have them with a shield

Knockdown with 1 handers has always been ridiculous. They have good damage and a random chance to cause a knockdown, kick, kill chain which doesn't add anything to the game but free kills based on luck

The axes are OK. They have good damage but no stab, which is fine.
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: Nightmare798 on January 10, 2014, 11:11:18 am
Where is a "Fuck your opinion,, option smegmar?

The problem is that 1 hand swords are OP. The stab and speed is just too good when you have them with a shield

Knockdown with 1 handers has always been ridiculous. They have good damage and a random chance to cause a knockdown, kick, kill chain which doesn't add anything to the game but free kills based on luck

The axes are OK. They have good damage but no stab, which is fine.
Just wondering, what weapon type do you use?
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: Canuck on January 10, 2014, 03:24:21 pm
vote the last one because that's the only thing I understood
I didn't even understand it but that last one there's the only one to make any sense. Options one through five are just gibberish.
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: Grumbs on January 10, 2014, 03:36:56 pm
Where is a "Fuck your opinion,, option smegmar?
Just wondering, what weapon type do you use?

Pretty much everything now. Depends what I feel like (have 138, 138, 139 wpf and 5 shield skill)

I think the role of 1 hand with shield has shifted too much. Their range was increased so some poles get outranged, and anything without a stab got hit pretty hard with that 1 hand stab buff that we didn't really need. 1 hand with shield should be short range but fast attacks, not decent range, decent damage, good stab while having protection from ranged that others don't have.

They also buffed all the ranged classes, especially when you look at how good 0 slot 1 handers are
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: Tojo on January 10, 2014, 03:41:04 pm
Thread TLDR, but I use a 1h sword and the stab is the only thing i have going fot me when i have to fight polearms and two handers that can swing faster than me.

Also if you dont like swords here is a great idea
(click to show/hide)
.
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: Nightmare798 on January 10, 2014, 08:05:42 pm
Pretty much everything now. Depends what I feel like (have 138, 138, 139 wpf and 5 shield skill)

I think the role of 1 hand with shield has shifted too much. Their range was increased so some poles get outranged, and anything without a stab got hit pretty hard with that 1 hand stab buff that we didn't really need. 1 hand with shield should be short range but fast attacks, not decent range, decent damage, good stab while having protection from ranged that others don't have.

They also buffed all the ranged classes, especially when you look at how good 0 slot 1 handers are

If you get outranged by one handed sword when using spear, you seriously need to work on your positioning.

Also you forget that shielders pay heavy price for what they are. Or did you forget that having a shield makes you move as slow as turtle?

Not to mention there is a huge delay between lowering shield and attacking, any shielder can tell you that one handed weapons are actually really fucking slow, especially the longer ones.
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: Mr.K. on January 10, 2014, 08:13:07 pm
If you get outranged by one handed sword when using spear, you seriously need to work on your positioning.

Also you forget that shielders pay heavy price for what they are. Or did you forget that having a shield makes you move as slow as turtle?

Not to mention there is a huge delay between lowering shield and attacking, any shielder can tell you that one handed weapons are actually really fucking slow, especially the longer ones.

Tested 1H range yesterday; Side sword stab has better reach than a Poleaxe stab, getting outreached by a 1H doesn't make you bad. Also 1H stab slow? lol.
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: Nightmare798 on January 10, 2014, 08:16:44 pm
Tested 1H range yesterday. Side sword stab has better reach than a Poleaxe stab. Getting outreached by a 1H doesn't make you bad. Also 1H stab slow? lol.

That never happened to me. Must be some kind of fancy magic to it. Also, 1H is slow if you attack after releasing block which was my point, sorry If I didnt type this in understandable manner.
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: Ronin on January 10, 2014, 09:04:34 pm
Let's compare the longest attack of a weapon type versus the shortest attack of another. Bravo!
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: Adamar on January 11, 2014, 04:27:08 pm
I think they slice through armor way too easily for the kind of weapon they are.
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: SMEGMAR on January 12, 2014, 02:20:49 am
I think they slice through armor way too easily for the kind of weapon they are.

Slice is like a bread for that matter.
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: Rumblood on January 12, 2014, 02:33:33 am
Yeah, we know that Europe has more players than NA, yet this poll suggests otherwise? I think not. Pick your own continent you filthy loveable Euro's!
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: Spanish on January 12, 2014, 05:28:38 am
War spear best spear though my Highland gaymore is quite lovely for the amount of death I can delve out with overheads yet ppl seem to cry more about my ability to stab through downblocks with the spear than anything else
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: Nightmare798 on January 12, 2014, 10:29:32 am
Slice is like a bread for that matter.

If devs were going for realism, axes would be pretty cumbersome weapons that get stuck in shields all the time.

That means slower speed rating and higher stun on blocked attack by shield for axes. Do you still want this realistic?
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: Smithy on January 12, 2014, 12:09:58 pm
He clearly doesn't want it realistic.  Why else would he be saying swords shouldn't be viable, and everything else should be buffed.   :lol:
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: Jona on January 13, 2014, 12:59:24 am
He clearly doesn't want it realistic.  Why else would he be saying swords shouldn't be viable, and everything else should be buffed.   :lol:

Well it all depends on what era you are looking at. Since there is full plate armor in this game, having swords as the only viable option is quite unrealistic if we look at that time period. Poleaxes, warhammers, steel picks and the like were invented for this time since knights had otherwise impenetrable armor. Yes, the occasional knight carried a sword, but it was often times more of a symbolic or ceremonial piece... perhaps a family heirloom. Fully plated knights didn't fight each other with swords, so if we look at it that way... asking for a buff to every non-sword would promote realism.


So you want your axes to be maces when it comes to ignoring armor, with Bonus damage against shield, and without the knockdown. Doing 35 damage?


Well you see, axes are quite heavy. Sure, they happen to be wedge-shaped and made for hacking... but if land a solid hit on someone with plate armor on and you are using an axe, they might be more fucked up than had u hit them with a mace. An axe and mace of equal length/weight would deal damage differently. While the axe most likely wont cut through the armor, it still has all its weight behind a fine line, while a mace has all of its weight behind a spread out area. The mace might bruise the bones under the place of impact (depending on the strength of the blow) but the axe could definitely break bones directly beneath the collision point.

Basically, a mace would do less damage over a wider area, while an axe would do more severe damage to a smaller area. But ask yourself this; would you rather be on a battlefield with several broken ribs, or just a giant black and blue?


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: Smithy on January 13, 2014, 01:52:55 pm
I understand what you're saying Jona, but you have to remember, this game barely scratches the surface on full plate armor.  I agree in that swords should just bounce off of Gothic Plate but Warband's engine doesn't work like that.  However, have you ever seen what it takes to kill people like Firebus (lol) while using a Heavy Bastard Sword?  Yes it damages him every hit which is silly but it takes easily 15+ hits as where a Bar Mace would end him in ~3. 


I think you are simply over exaggerating swords' effectiveness.  Why, I'm not sure perhaps its a lack of experience in using them.  Now before you say I'm "defending" swords because I'm a 2h build, don't.  I have over 20 gens experience in this game with around 7 of them being 2h and 5 of them using 2h swords.  I've done 4 gens of 1h using a sword or a pick.  Pick was my favorite, actually.  Various cav builds, most polearm, and 5 gens of pure polearm, using a German Poleaxe exclusively. 

I've said all of that to say this:  I do not believe, considering Warband's engine and the timeframe majority that this game is based in, that swords are "OP".  Nor do I believe that auxiliary weapons are "under powered".  Having extensive experience with every class possibility in this game, and having used every weapon type extensively I believe I can say this, without bias.
Title: Re: Swords *(Now with polls!)*
Post by: Sniger on January 13, 2014, 04:34:52 pm
i carry both sword and axe. I use axe for cluster fights and other shielders, sword for everything else. the axe lack reach, speed and stab but then again its visa versa in a clusterfight situation where your sword overhead will glance on your mate behind and similar.

i agree some swords is meant to break arms and legs and well immobilize armored enemies, sharp cutting swords like the Japanese should have a very little penetration chance close to none. would be cool if you could deal damage only if you hit plate joints but i think its too hard to code