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Off Topic => General Off Topic => Topic started by: Xant on December 28, 2013, 01:01:14 pm

Title: Believe in God #2
Post by: Xant on December 28, 2013, 01:01:14 pm
Because locking topics is gay as fuck, and it's even gayer when done because of fallacious invoking of Godwin's Law.


Quote
Lucky why? This is one of the topics where it's warranted to bring up einstein and the chocolate chip cookies. Why would god let that happen? "Free will"? What about the free will of the eleven million people einstein killed (not counting soldiers) who had no say in their fate?

God is dumb and you're dumb and you should feel dumb if you believe in God.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Dezilagel on December 28, 2013, 01:02:19 pm
I'm now a believer in Pepe's penis.

May it have mercy on you all.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: pepejul on December 28, 2013, 01:03:56 pm
THEY SHUT THE CROSS DOWN !!!

OMG !!!


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Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: BASNAK on December 28, 2013, 01:10:37 pm
Best thing about these threads is that after all the discussions and bickering no one will still change their beliefs or opinions.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: rufio on December 28, 2013, 01:13:10 pm
i always thought xant was god
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Osiris on December 28, 2013, 01:23:41 pm
Weaboo avatar? Rufio is the devil!
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: rufio on December 28, 2013, 01:26:14 pm
munin avatars are out of style
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: LordBerenger on December 28, 2013, 01:28:53 pm
Nobody changes their stance on any matters in these kinds of threads especially if it's a thread that involves Xant. All the posts are just the kind of ''My thoughts on the matter are the best and most true and nobody can disprove them and now i will showcase my supreme opinions to the rest of the internet to show my superiority''.

Pointless threads.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: pepejul on December 28, 2013, 01:34:07 pm
First thread was "why do you believe ?" "or "how can you believe"... the only answer was "I believe cause I do some magical tricks with my figers and my will"...

Pple can choose the best way after that....  :rolleyes:

Posting in a thread saying "this thread is shit" is so adorable....
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Leshma on December 28, 2013, 01:39:54 pm
There should be a variant of Godwin's law which says: As an online discussion grows longer, the amount of fucks given approaches 0.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Xant on December 28, 2013, 01:42:58 pm
Nobody changes their stance on any matters in these kinds of threads especially if it's a thread that involves Xant. All the posts are just the kind of ''My thoughts on the matter are the best and most true and nobody can disapprove them and now i will showcase my supreme opinions to the rest of the internet to show my superiority''.

Pointless threads.
Well, no one can disprove them. So there's that.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: rufio on December 28, 2013, 02:03:57 pm
go argue on reddit xant
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: enigmatic_stranger on December 28, 2013, 02:22:19 pm
go argue on reddit xant
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Molly on December 28, 2013, 02:30:57 pm
There should be a variant of Godwin's law which says: As an online discussion grows longer, the amount of fucks given approaches 0.

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Like that? :D

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Tydeus on December 28, 2013, 03:08:31 pm
Because locking topics is gay as fuck, and it's even gayer when done because of fallacious invoking of Godwin's Law.
Damn you Pepe for locking the thread, I have responses that need to be made! Now we have one that Xant made, except the first post isn't nearly provocative enough to get the other side in here.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Xant on December 28, 2013, 03:14:44 pm
OP edited to be more provocative.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Grumbs on December 28, 2013, 03:25:05 pm
If I could remove religion from the Earth I would. But I think its incredibly disrespectful to push too hard against someone's beliefs. They are born into it, it affects very important parts of their lives and can be part of their culture and sense of self. All you can do is provide an alternative and present different ideas. Beyond that you are just being an antagoniser/"insert insult" and by making the alternative something that ridicules you or behaves too disrespectfully they might never want to take the step to that side

So I say question beliefs when its appropriate but be respectful regardless because its like trying to tell people that green is red. They learn this stuff at such an early part of their lives that its ingrained into them as facts. They might not change their mind straight away, but at least leave them the option of switching without them thinking people who don't believe are complete dicks. Why would they want to not believe if all the people who talk to them about atheism do it in such a way. And they might never change their mind so why not be respectful and leave them to it?
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: enigmatic_stranger on December 28, 2013, 03:39:32 pm
God is dumb and you're dumb and you should feel dumb if you believe in God.
You saying that god isn't real, and than you say that god is dumb! It means that you belive in god! Haha ha ha! You dumb! Haha!
Xent: 0
Autism: 1
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Xant on December 28, 2013, 03:41:03 pm
What? No, I never said God isn't real. Obviously he's real. I just said you're dumb if you believe in him.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Butan on December 28, 2013, 03:49:21 pm
He's (God) real.[...] You're dumb if you believe in him.


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Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Xant on December 28, 2013, 04:11:04 pm
Most witches don’t believe in gods. They know that the gods exist, of course. They even deal with them occasionally. But they don’t believe in them. They know them too well. It would be like believing in the postman.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Brrrak on December 28, 2013, 04:22:03 pm

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Most witches don’t believe in gods. They know that the gods exist, of course. They even deal with them occasionally. But they don’t believe in them. They know them too well. It would be like believing in the postman.

I don't see how this is mindblowing, but I also have a little bit of a time wrapping my head around the lack of religion toward a deity/deities in whose existence you believe, unless you believe also that they do not interact with the world or humans.

In which case, why would they matter.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Tyefire on December 30, 2013, 12:50:58 am
I see now how many people think on this mod and I do respect that.  :wink: I do understand why people would not believe in a god without factual evidence, but I do believe there is a higher being somewhere. We were not all made from thin air everything came from something. For example: Space itself, did not just appear.They say the big bang made all of earth[which for all who do not know is a theory that deduces a cataclysmic birth of the universe (big bang)  from the observed expansion of the universe, cosmic background radiation, abundance of the elements, and the laws of physics. I do believe there is a being watching over us and think what you want but not believing in anything is simple minded to me.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Teeth on December 30, 2013, 12:58:43 am
The existence of Xant is proof enough that there is no God.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Xant on December 30, 2013, 12:59:06 am
How is not believing in anything simple minded? Do you have any reason for believing there is "a being watching over us"? If not, is that not the same as believing there are pink, invisible unicorns flying around you singing "Kumbayaah my Lord, kumbayaah"? If not, why not?
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Latrinenkobold on December 30, 2013, 01:00:37 am
i´d rather not have some higher beeing watch me all the time  :oops:
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Tyefire on December 30, 2013, 01:24:06 am
i´d rather not have some higher beeing watch me all the time  :oops:
The thing is the higher being is what you make of it. God is what is you make God to be. If being nice to people and/or just living a healthy life is a form of god to someone then let them be.
How is not believing in anything simple minded? Do you have any reason for believing there is "a being watching over us"? If not, is that not the same as believing there are pink, invisible unicorns flying around you singing "Kumbayaah my Lord, kumbayaah"? If not, why not?
So then from your perspective, what do you believe us and the space time continuum came from. Where does that voice that is in the back of your head come from when you are about to make a bad decision. Im saying that you are being kind of close minded if you believe we come from nothing or that a fucking explosion started the universe.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Osiris on December 30, 2013, 01:53:10 am
Being a God myself i feel i should shed some light on this matter. We just don't care about humanity. We use your faith to amuse ourselves. Like your little E-peen contests we have Omg look how many guys i got to worship me contests.

your females are ok for consorting with sometimes but personally i prefer Isis. The Nordic gods are game for a laugh but Allah and Jehovah are pretty dull guys always taking the manipulation of mortal noobs too seriously. They are pretty try hard.

Personally i feel i have a mighty God-peen i mean i got people to build me giant pyramids, ahh the good old days.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on December 30, 2013, 02:07:04 am
There's no need to insert divine beings into concepts humans do not understand completely yet, it just adds a whacko incomprehensible divine being that happens to coincide with crazy goat herder Bronze Age rules and customs.

The conscience can be readily explained by guilt being a trait that causes an increase in fitness in the context of societies where cooperation is rewarded, and "cheating" is heavily punished.

Any model of the universe that requires a divine being as a first mover calls for bad special pleading logic where everything needs a cause except a complex divine being (with crazy rules that conveniently change later on), which falls apart when you ask why the universe/singularity cannot be eternal, let alone why they would leave humans alone for thousands of years (if you are a YEC that ignores physics, geology, chemistry, etc), or hundreds of thousands of years (if OEC).
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Xant on December 30, 2013, 02:51:57 am
So then from your perspective, what do you believe us and the space time continuum came from.
I don't believe anything about it. I don't know where and how "everything" began. I don't have enough data to believe anything; so I don't.

Quote
Where does that voice that is in the back of your head come from when you are about to make a bad decision. Im saying that you are being kind of close minded if you believe we come from nothing or that a fucking explosion started the universe.
The voice in the back of my head comes from my brain.

What you say there makes no sense. There is scientific evidence that an explosion started the Universe. Indeed, you are being the close minded one if you refuse to look at the data and instead just "believe" something else, for no reason at all.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: pepejul on December 30, 2013, 08:47:01 am
The voice behind me is my wife when she's f..k...g me hard whith her big black strappon...

And I say "OH MY GOD !"....

So God is true...  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Strudog on December 30, 2013, 10:41:17 am
Biggest waste of time reading this thread..........

I should really learn that nothing constructive ever comes out of these forums
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Kafein on December 31, 2013, 05:15:52 am
For the love of physics, stop calling the Big Bang an "explosion".
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Rumblood on December 31, 2013, 06:13:00 am
There is scientific evidence that an explosion started the Universe.

No, there isn't. There is a theory and some evidence to support the idea that the early universe underwent a rapid expansion. Nothing says that there was an explosion. Ekpyrotic model as it happens assumes that there was a collision, not an explosion. Not to mention the problems with the Big Bang theory as it stands given scientific evidence we currently have.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: pepejul on December 31, 2013, 10:17:57 am
The only good Big Bang Therory I know is there : http://www.zone-telechargement.com/series/vostfr/35206-the-big-bang-theory-saison-7.html
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Radament on December 31, 2013, 01:20:02 pm
The only good Big Bang Therory I know is there : http://www.zone-telechargement.com/series/vostfr/35206-the-big-bang-theory-saison-7.html

nope this is the truth --->

*converted to Sayanism*
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Macropus on December 31, 2013, 01:29:14 pm
I don't believe in God because He never told me to...
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Panos_ on December 31, 2013, 01:33:04 pm
Biggest waste of time reading this thread..........

I should really learn that nothing constructive ever comes out of these forums


Yeah, because your posting is top grade quality.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Xant on December 31, 2013, 02:32:22 pm
No, there isn't. There is a theory and some evidence to support the idea that the early universe underwent a rapid expansion. Nothing says that there was an explosion. Ekpyrotic model as it happens assumes that there was a collision, not an explosion. Not to mention the problems with the Big Bang theory as it stands given scientific evidence we currently have.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

Enjoy.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Molly on December 31, 2013, 03:15:46 pm
Well, there is quite a lot of stuff in physics like the "Big Bang" - a theory that is supported by observations. A theory nonetheless.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Xant on December 31, 2013, 03:22:35 pm
Science only has theories.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Molly on December 31, 2013, 03:29:26 pm
That isn't exactly true - there are Laws.

Though it mainly is just a different word for the same thing. A theory is less empirical/mathematical "proven" than a Law - that's pretty much the only difference, I guess.

Personally, I will never expect the "Big Bang" ever to be "proven" in any kind. Just the massive time frame and the huge amount of data considering the size of the whole Universe... nah, never gonna happen :)
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Xant on December 31, 2013, 03:36:14 pm
The point isn't that the Big Bang is 100% provable or not, though. There is evidence for it. That's more than can be said for anything else, so the smart thing to do is believe that Big Bang being true has a higher probability than "god did it" being true.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: SixThumbs on December 31, 2013, 03:44:07 pm
My surprise reached a climax, however, when I found incidentally that he was ignorant of the Copernican Theory and of the composition of the Solar System. That any civilized human being in this nineteenth century should not be aware that the earth travelled round the sun appeared to be to me such an extraordinary fact that I could hardly realize it.

"You appear to be astonished," he said, smiling at my expression of surprise. "Now that I do know it I shall do my best to forget it."

"To forget it!"

"You see," he explained, "I consider that a man's brain originally is like a little empty attic, and you have to stock it with such furniture as you choose. A fool takes in all the lumber of every sort that he comes across, so that the knowledge which might be useful to him gets crowded out, or at best is jumbled up with a lot of other things so that he has a difficulty in laying his hands upon it. Now the skilful workman is very careful indeed as to what he takes into his brain-attic. He will have nothing but the tools which may help him in doing his work, but of these he has a large assortment, and all in the most perfect order. It is a mistake to think that that little room has elastic walls and can distend to any extent. Depend upon it there comes a time when for every addition of knowledge you forget something that you knew before. It is of the highest importance, therefore, not to have useless facts elbowing out the useful ones."

"But the Solar System!" I protested.

"What the deuce is it to me?" he interrupted impatiently; "you say that we go round the sun. If we went round the moon it would not make a pennyworth of difference to me or to my work."
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Rumblood on December 31, 2013, 04:51:37 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

Enjoy.

Wikipedia? Written by people like you? Hahahaha  :lol:

There is no evidence supporting an explosion.

Quote
Big Bang Theory - Common Misconceptions
There are many misconceptions surrounding the Big Bang theory. For example, we tend to imagine a giant explosion. Experts however say that there was no explosion; there was (and continues to be) an expansion. Rather than imagining a balloon popping and releasing its contents, imagine a balloon expanding: an infinitesimally small balloon expanding to the size of our current universe.

http://www.big-bang-theory.com/ (http://www.big-bang-theory.com/)

Enjoy.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Xant on December 31, 2013, 05:07:01 pm
Reading comprehension is difficult.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Rumblood on December 31, 2013, 05:09:26 pm
Reading comprehension is difficult.

I'm glad you finally realized that.

So practice more.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Xant on December 31, 2013, 05:13:20 pm
Yes, I was actually talking about myself there. I thought you were disputing the Big Bang, not the explosion part. I called it an explosion since I was replying to Tyefire, who also called it an explosion.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Rumblood on December 31, 2013, 07:17:38 pm
It is the physicists responsible who say that there was no explosion Heskey, so you go make your argument about physics with those physicists alrighty?  :idea: For your definition to be true, there would have had to have been a chemical or nuclear release of energy, or an external force compressing the early universe and then suddenly disappearing so that the internal pressure resulted in the expansion. In fact, the physicists say that prior to the "Big Bang", there was nothing at all, so no chemical, nuclear, or internal mechanical energy even existed at all to create this explosion of yours. Hence, the Ekpyrotic model theorizes the existence of branes and the "big bang" being a result of a collision between them so that rather than being an an expansion of "something" from "nothing", it is an interaction between 2 "somethings" that we can not perceive.
The "Big Bang" term was coined by someone with an alternate theory to the universe, not the theorists or proponents themselves.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Rumblood on December 31, 2013, 07:25:20 pm
I edited the above, but here it is below for you:

Quote
For your definition to be true, there would have had to have been a chemical or nuclear release of energy, or an external force compressing the early universe and then suddenly disappearing so that the internal pressure resulted in the expansion. In fact, the physicists say that prior to the "Big Bang", there was nothing at all, so no chemical, nuclear, or internal mechanical energy even existed at all to create this explosion of yours. Hence, the Ekpyrotic model theorizes the existence of branes and the "big bang" being a result of a collision between them so that rather than being an an expansion of "something" from "nothing", it is an interaction between 2 "somethings" that we can not perceive.

The only physics involved is in the proving that the universe is expanding. I'm not arguing pro or counter a creator, nor am i saying we have all the answers, cos we don't. Just nit-picking terminology :P the 'explosion' is now, and all around us.

Then you aren't using the terms that physicists use, and if you aren't, you aren't even speaking the same language.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Xant on December 31, 2013, 07:34:21 pm
I propose that from now on we only communicate with edits, to make things as confusing as possible.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Kafein on January 01, 2014, 02:56:59 pm
My surprise reached a climax, however, when I found incidentally that he was ignorant of the Copernican Theory and of the composition of the Solar System. That any civilized human being in this nineteenth century should not be aware that the earth travelled round the sun appeared to be to me such an extraordinary fact that I could hardly realize it.

"You appear to be astonished," he said, smiling at my expression of surprise. "Now that I do know it I shall do my best to forget it."

"To forget it!"

"You see," he explained, "I consider that a man's brain originally is like a little empty attic, and you have to stock it with such furniture as you choose. A fool takes in all the lumber of every sort that he comes across, so that the knowledge which might be useful to him gets crowded out, or at best is jumbled up with a lot of other things so that he has a difficulty in laying his hands upon it. Now the skilful workman is very careful indeed as to what he takes into his brain-attic. He will have nothing but the tools which may help him in doing his work, but of these he has a large assortment, and all in the most perfect order. It is a mistake to think that that little room has elastic walls and can distend to any extent. Depend upon it there comes a time when for every addition of knowledge you forget something that you knew before. It is of the highest importance, therefore, not to have useless facts elbowing out the useful ones."

"But the Solar System!" I protested.

"What the deuce is it to me?" he interrupted impatiently; "you say that we go round the sun. If we went round the moon it would not make a pennyworth of difference to me or to my work."

To you, knowledge is only valuable if it has immediate use? Besides, it is completely false that more knowledge "clutters" your brain.




About the other debate in this thread, my point in not calling the Big Bang an explosion is because an explosion is defined by a rapid expansion of gazes. Yet gazes didn't even exist at that time. The expanding universe as we see it now isn't even an explosion because the reason it is expanding is not because it is made of elements that received an initial energy that made them drift in all directions, like a frag grenade. The reason it is expanding is because the empty spaces between them is becoming larger. So in a sense, it's a bit like if you had a grenade that released accelerating self-propelled rockets, even though this is not a good analogy either, because the universe has no central point "where the big bang happened".
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Osiris on January 01, 2014, 03:08:47 pm
you know he just quoted Sherlock Holmes right? Kafein  :lol:
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Kafein on January 01, 2014, 03:17:11 pm
you know he just quoted Sherlock Holmes right? Kafein  :lol:

No, I did not, and I really don't care.

Besides, that's technically quoting Poe.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Osiris on January 01, 2014, 03:25:19 pm
it would be if poe wrote sherlock holmes  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Kafein on January 01, 2014, 03:30:08 pm
it would be if poe wrote sherlock holmes  :rolleyes:

Ho yeah right it's the other one. For once I don't check when I say something clever and it has to be the other one.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: SixThumbs on January 01, 2014, 04:23:04 pm
To you, knowledge is only valuable if it has immediate use? Besides, it is completely false that more knowledge "clutters" your brain.

I'm aware we're not born "tabula rasa", a blank state in which we and others imprint things onto the mind, and I understand that neurologists say we have a "neuroplasicity" within our brains and that instead of losing information we only weaken synapses. But that's about the pennyworth of knowledge I have on that subject and what the deuce is it to me if I can't be as cognizant of the subject as neurologists and psychologists?

"--and now I was going to bring back all such things into my life and become again that most limited of all specialists, the 'well-rounded man.' This isn't just an epigram--life is much more successfully looked at from a single window, after all."
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: bilwit on January 01, 2014, 10:02:02 pm
I was a pretty stout atheist for a while but looking back it was a more of a backlash towards Christianity. I guess I'm agnostic these days. I watched a Lawrence Krauss lecture on the history of the universe and he says that we know that there is no god because we can measure exactly when the universe was created through the Big Bang. Then I read Phillip K Dick and Grant Morrison which showed me that creationism really isn't solely boxed into believing (or needing to praise/worship) in an omniscient, benign god that looks after humanity and has direct influence over our lives ala Christianity and that every physical and scientific theory we've come up with in modern science can still conceivably fit into creationist thinking.

For example:
These still abide by any scientific explanation out there (big bang) and are more conceivable than Christianity's explanation, so why not?
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Brrrak on January 01, 2014, 10:11:18 pm
Just let me believe in my 'imaginary friend', 'sky-fairy', or whatever you want to say, and you keep on shiggy-diggying.

Is it not so difficult?
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Rumblood on January 01, 2014, 10:50:06 pm
I only get annoyed when people say "My sky-fairy says..." and then tries to shove it down your throat. No, your sky-fairy didn't say anything. Some humans wrote some things down they saw when eating moldy rye bread and said it came from the sky-fairy. Well when I did the same thing, I visited the sky-fairy myself and he told me that in actuality I was the sky-fairy, only the sky-fairy kept me from knowing it until then because really the sky-fairy is the only being in existence and was very lonely and so to overcome this, the sky-fairy splits off parts of itself and hides that knowledge from those parts so that it seems as though the universe is populated with billions of beings instead of just the single lonely sky-fairy. Sad really, but the sky-fairy has done what it could do to fool itself and not be so sad and feel at least a little less lonely, which is the main reason the sky-fairy hides from us all. We would recognize ourselves and the veil would be lifted, putting us back in that miserable lonely existence once again. It was so terrible that we can't go through that again, and so we maintain the farce to keep ourself from being so miserably alone.

So there.

Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on January 01, 2014, 11:01:44 pm
I'm an agnostic atheist.

I was a pretty stout atheist for a while but looking back it was a more of a backlash towards Christianity. I guess I'm agnostic these days.

I'm mildly annoyed when people dodge the "Do you believe in gods?" question by saying they are agnostic. Either you do believe or you don't, there's not really much fence sitting on a yes or no question. On the other hand, it's completely fine to be an agnostic atheist or agnostic theist, where you say "I do(n't) believe, but I do not know". And that's agnostic (a)theism.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: bilwit on January 01, 2014, 11:07:51 pm
I'm an agnostic atheist.

I'm mildly annoyed when people dodge the "Do you believe in gods?" question by saying they are agnostic. Either you do believe or you don't, there's not really much fence sitting on a yes or no question. On the other hand, it's completely fine to be an agnostic atheist or agnostic theist, where you say "I do(n't) believe, but I do not know". And that's agnostic (a)theism.

Herpderp so you can only think in extremes? Us versus them? Good old George W Bush did too. How do you account for what you would consider an agnostic nihilist then?
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Dezilagel on January 01, 2014, 11:09:58 pm


Pretentious twat?

And your arguing is wrong on so many levels.

Goddamn edit.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: bilwit on January 01, 2014, 11:15:32 pm
Now that I think of it I guess that would be considered "agnostic atheist" to him then. It's asinine that apparently it "would not be fine" to him unless you append with that qualifier though.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Xant on January 01, 2014, 11:21:26 pm
Yay, let's start over the argument over semantics again!

Atheism, when 99,99999% people say they are atheists, means that those people don't believe in the deities of any of Earth's religions any more than they believe that Bilbo Baggins is The One True God, because both have as much evidence behind them. I have never, ever met an atheist who proclaimed that it was completely and utterly impossible for there to exist any kind of a being that would appear godlike to us.

Atheism: a lack of belief that god exists. You can get more hippy over it and trying to differentiate yourself from everyone else by trying to show off how cool you are by saying you're agnostic or paracrostic, but newsflash: you're not different.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Rumblood on January 01, 2014, 11:26:08 pm
I'm an agnostic atheist.

I'm mildly annoyed when people dodge the "Do you believe in gods?" question by saying they are agnostic. Either you do believe or you don't, there's not really much fence sitting on a yes or no question. On the other hand, it's completely fine to be an agnostic atheist or agnostic theist, where you say "I do(n't) believe, but I do not know". And that's agnostic (a)theism.

No, an agnostic does not know, and in fact believes it is impossible to know, thus will never answer that question yes or no. The answer is "It is impossible to know".
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on January 01, 2014, 11:37:58 pm
Now that I think of it I guess that would be considered "agnostic atheist" to him then. It's asinine that apparently it "would not be fine" to him unless you append with that qualifier though.

Oh. Sorry, did not really mean to upset you or anyone else with what I said. It's just a minor bugbear I have when people argue religion.

My point was that agnosticism and atheism isn't mutually exclusive. I have nothing against people who call themselves agnostics, since we usually share the same belief, and I'm also an agnostic.

No, an agnostic does not know, and in fact believes it is impossible to know, thus will never answer that question yes or no. The answer is "It is impossible to know".

Did I say differently? Although with an added caveat that there are agnostics who are of the opinion that at this point in time it is impossible to know, but might be possible in the future.

This however has little to do with what a person believes, since I know plenty of people who say that they believe in god, but they don't have any actual knowledge if he really exists or not. It's a matter of faith. These people are agnostic theists.

Whether they answer my question or not, I have trouble wrapping my head around on how someone can neither believe or not believe. And yes, I agree that for the moment it is impossible to know.

Basically, if someone is asked the question "Do you believe in god/gods?" and he can't answer yes, then he does not believe. Or am I being dumb in thinking this? How is it impossible to know what you yourself believe?

And sorry if I completely derailed this very civil discussion on religion with semantics.

I try my best to follow Bertrand Russell's message, so if you feel offended by what I say, I can only apologize.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Grumbs on January 02, 2014, 12:00:45 am
I'm aware we're not born "tabula rasa", a blank state in which we and others imprint things onto the mind, and I understand that neurologists say we have a "neuroplasicity" within our brains and that instead of losing information we only weaken synapses. But that's about the pennyworth of knowledge I have on that subject and what the deuce is it to me if I can't be as cognizant of the subject as neurologists and psychologists?

"--and now I was going to bring back all such things into my life and become again that most limited of all specialists, the 'well-rounded man.' This isn't just an epigram--life is much more successfully looked at from a single window, after all."

Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Macropus on January 02, 2014, 01:08:09 am
To be honest, I'd be glad to be able to believe in some superbeing like God. It must be easier/simpler to live that way. But I can't, sadly. All this religion thing just doesn't make much sense to me.

A good example of what I think on this matter might be this Tim Minchin's video (yes I like to insert random videos in random topics):
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Rumblood on January 02, 2014, 01:10:31 am
Did I say differently? Although with an added caveat that there are agnostics who are of the opinion that at this point in time it is impossible to know, but might be possible in the future.

This however has little to do with what a person believes, since I know plenty of people who say that they believe in god, but they don't have any actual knowledge if he really exists or not. It's a matter of faith. These people are agnostic theists.

Whether they answer my question or not, I have trouble wrapping my head around on how someone can neither believe or not believe. And yes, I agree that for the moment it is impossible to know.

Basically, if someone is asked the question "Do you believe in god/gods?" and he can't answer yes, then he does not believe. Or am I being dumb in thinking this? How is it impossible to know what you yourself believe?

Regardless of the people trying to take the term themselves, they are not agnostic. They are atheists or theists of varying degrees. But they are not agnostic as they have formed an opinion of the unknowable, and thus are not agnostic.
I don't see how you don't understand not knowing something. While this is completely off base when it comes to agnosticism as it deals with the material, which is measurable, as far as you are concerned it is not measurable. So answer me yes or no, is there a Canadian quarter in my pocket? In fact, are there even pockets on the clothes that I am currently wearing? Yes or no? In fact, am I even wearing clothes? Yes or no?
Since you can't observe anything concerning those questions, nor have any other way of ascertaining the truth of those questions, the only honest answer you can give is you don't know, nor can you know. To assume either or state either yes or no is simply a lie on your part.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Macropus on January 02, 2014, 01:31:57 am
I don't see how you don't understand not knowing something. While this is completely off base when it comes to agnosticism as it deals with the material, which is measurable, as far as you are concerned it is not measurable. So answer me yes or no, is there a Canadian quarter in my pocket? In fact, are there even pockets on the clothes that I am currently wearing? Yes or no? In fact, am I even wearing clothes? Yes or no?
Since you can't observe anything concerning those questions, nor have any other way of ascertaining the truth of those questions, the only honest answer you can give is you don't know, nor can you know. To assume either or state either yes or no is simply a lie on your part.
What Khorin talks about is a bit different IMO. He doesn't say "There is no god", he says "I don't believe in god". The first is impossible without certain knowledge, the second is not.
Applying it to your example, he could answer "I don't believe you have this thing (whatever it is) in your pocket, because I don't know whether you're even wearing clothes right now or not".
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Xant on January 02, 2014, 01:44:52 am
That doesn't make sense. Why would he have reason to believe there is no thing in his pocket if he doesn't know he's wearing clothes?
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Macropus on January 02, 2014, 01:51:24 am
That doesn't make sense. Why would he have reason to believe there is no thing in his pocket
because...
he doesn't know he's wearing clothes

Note that we're not talking about the case when Grannpappy himself says he does have that thing in his pocket, same as god can't say "I do exist" to get "No you fucking don't" as an anwser, which would be weird indeed.

I assume that if I have no knowledge on the matter, my default stance is "not believing", so I actually have to get a reason to believe in something, not reason not to believe.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on January 02, 2014, 02:03:03 am
That doesn't make sense. Why would he have reason to believe there is no thing in his pocket if he doesn't know he's wearing clothes?
It's a guess, just like whether god exists or not is an (educated) guess.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Xant on January 02, 2014, 03:09:25 am
because...
Note that we're not talking about the case when Grannpappy himself says he does have that thing in his pocket, same as god can't say "I do exist" to get "No you fucking don't" as an anwser, which would be weird indeed.

I assume that if I have no knowledge on the matter, my default stance is "not believing", so I actually have to get a reason to believe in something, not reason not to believe.
No, you have no reason to assume one way or the other. That means it'd be stupid to say "I don't believe you have X in your pocket, because I don't even know if you're wearing pants." Your map being blank has nothing to do with the state of the territory. If you have no more information than that, a rational agent does not say "I don't believe you." A rational agent says "I have no way of knowing; therefore, it is a 50-50 possibility."
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Rumblood on January 02, 2014, 06:46:44 am
because...
Note that we're not talking about the case when Grannpappy himself says he does have that thing in his pocket, same as god can't say "I do exist" to get "No you fucking don't" as an anwser, which would be weird indeed.

I assume that if I have no knowledge on the matter, my default stance is "not believing", so I actually have to get a reason to believe in something, not reason not to believe.

Believing what? That I was wearing clothes at the time of that post? When I ask am I wearing clothes, yes or no, your default answer is no?
You have absolutely no basis for that opinion whatsoever. It is illogical to answer either yes or no. The answer is, you don't know and you can't know. As Xant says, the best guess you can make is that it is a 50/50 probability, which is still the same as saying you don't know, nor do you lean one way or the other.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Brrrak on January 02, 2014, 09:07:05 am
(click to show/hide)

Man, ergot is pretty bleak, isn't it?
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Macropus on January 02, 2014, 10:37:17 am
No, you have no reason to assume one way or the other. That means it'd be stupid to say "I don't believe you have X in your pocket, because I don't even know if you're wearing pants." Your map being blank has nothing to do with the state of the territory. If you have no more information than that, a rational agent does not say "I don't believe you." A rational agent says "I have no way of knowing; therefore, it is a 50-50 possibility."
Believing what? That I was wearing clothes at the time of that post? When I ask am I wearing clothes, yes or no, your default answer is no?
You have absolutely no basis for that opinion whatsoever. It is illogical to answer either yes or no. The answer is, you don't know and you can't know. As Xant says, the best guess you can make is that it is a 50/50 probability, which is still the same as saying you don't know, nor do you lean one way or the other.

Eh, where are my english skills to explain that...  :?
Look, there are two kinds of questions - first kind is whether or not some fact is a fact. Like, "Does God exist?", "Do I have a pocket?". Second kind is whether or not you think/believe some fact is a fact, like "Do you believe in God?", "Do you think I have a pocket?".
Now, the question you asked is from first category. I don't know whether or not you're wearing clothes with pocket as a fact, I just don't have any evidence, as you pointed out, so I can only answer "I don't know". BUT that still allows me to answer to a similar question of the second category - whether or not I think you have pockets. Personally, I do think you have some pockets (note that I still don't know if it's true), just because people usually wear some, it's a guess as Zlisch pointed out.
 Now if we go back to religion. Agnostics do not say "God exists, I know it", or "God doesn't exist, I know it", they say, let me quote Xant: "you don't know and you can't know". (note that religious people usually do know there is God, same as some atheists know there is no God, they might have no evidence but at least they have something they consider as evidence).
Now let's say I'm agnostic, and I think to myself "God may exist or not, I don't know it. But it wouldn't make much sence to me if he does, the world seems to work in other ways, so I think he doesn't exists, so why would I believe in religion".
So in that sentence I state that:
1) I don't know if God exists
2) I DON'T believe in God.
I think that makes some sence.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Xant on January 02, 2014, 10:54:44 am
If you don't have any evidence, why would your default answer then be "no, I don't believe you have this thing in your pocket, because I don't know whether you're wearing clothes right now"? Why is there a "because" in there? Would you believe he had something specific in his pocket if he WAS wearing clothes..? "I don't know" is the only sensible answer.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Molly on January 02, 2014, 11:01:15 am
I didn't read everything so go easy on me but what about experience?

If you don't know whether someone is wearing clothes or not, wouldn't experience tell you that "normally" people wear clothes? You would assume that everyone is wearing some clothes and not being butt-naked.

Just saying...
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Macropus on January 02, 2014, 11:13:38 am
If you don't have any evidence, why would your default answer then be "no, I don't believe you have this thing in your pocket, because I don't know whether you're wearing clothes right now"? Why is there a "because" in there? Would you believe he had something specific in his pocket if he WAS wearing clothes..? "I don't know" is the only sensible answer.
That's correct, the word "because" shouldn't be there since it's just a guess. What I wrote in my last post is still legit though.
I didn't read everything so go easy on me but what about experience?

If you don't know whether someone is wearing clothes or not, wouldn't experience tell you that "normally" people wear clothes? You would assume that everyone is wearing some clothes and not being butt-naked.

Just saying...
That's right, but we're taking all this pocket thing as an example of (not) believing in God, and we can't have any experience regarding God because there's no norm on this matter.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on January 02, 2014, 11:21:29 am
I think he was trying to say that the default position is not necessarily "I have no way of knowing, therefore it is a 50-50 possibility" for very specific supernatural or incredible claims that defy physical evidence, not a vague claim of a divine being.

A claim that an individual is wearing clothes, and has something in their pockets is different from a claim that an individual is wearing clothes, and has a device that produces infinite energy in their pocket.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Macropus on January 02, 2014, 11:26:02 am
Long story short, the point is that you can still believe or not believe in God even though you don't know for sure if he exists or not. That's why it's called "belief" and not "knowledge".
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Xant on January 02, 2014, 11:28:03 am
I didn't read everything so go easy on me but what about experience?

If you don't know whether someone is wearing clothes or not, wouldn't experience tell you that "normally" people wear clothes? You would assume that everyone is wearing some clothes and not being butt-naked.

Just saying...
From a Bayesian perspective, yes. But whether someone has clothes or not (that is, if you have no more data to go on than the question - if you can see someone is naked, then the probability of them having something in their pocket decreases rather sharply..) is more or less irrelevant when asked the question "do I have something in my pocket?"
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on January 02, 2014, 11:49:36 am
Do you believe in gods? - No.
Do you believe in the non-existance of gods? - No.
Do you know that gods exists? - No.
Do you know that gods do not exist? - No.

I do not believe in either. I require proof to believe. Since atheism is defined by an absence or rejection of belief in gods, I am an atheist.
Which is what I have, a lack of belief. Obviously either gods exist or they don't, but I don't have to believe either for the time being, but simply because I do not believe in gods I am an atheist. There are so called gnostic atheists who claim to have knowledge and also believe in god's non-existance.

Proving negatives is also practically impossible, so believing in negatives makes no sense, however to be able to function in this world it's much more coherent to not believe things until proven and continue to function as if they did not exist. Otherwise you run into all the teapot, unicorn and spaghetti monster nonsense. God's non-existance will be disproven when we find god, it will never be conclusively proven.

Which comes back to why I am an agnostic atheist. I lack faith in gods, and I lack knowledge of gods.

Whether you have clothes or not, I will answer:
"Do you believe I have clothes?" No
"Do you believe I am naked?" No
"Do you know I have clothes?" No
"Do you know I am naked?" No

However, if you tell me that you have clothes, I will believe you since it is an extremely mundane thing, I still won't technically know, but mundane claims require mundane evidence.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Clockworkkiller on January 02, 2014, 11:55:43 am
I believe in only one god

And that's based god

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Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Molly on January 02, 2014, 11:58:59 am
[...]But whether someone has clothes or not [...] is more or less irrelevant when asked the question "do I have something in my pocket?"
I don't get that. Isn't it essential to have clothes on to have something in your pocket? So how is the question about clothes irrelevant?

You would have to deny somebody the question about clothes if you want him to answer a question about something in a pocket without it. That doesn't make it irrelevant though.

Tbh, I have to feeling that I am missing the point though.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Xant on January 02, 2014, 12:13:50 pm
I don't get that. Isn't it essential to have clothes on to have something in your pocket? So how is the question about clothes irrelevant?

You would have to deny somebody the question about clothes if you want him to answer a question about something in a pocket without it. That doesn't make it irrelevant though.

Tbh, I have to feeling that I am missing the point though.
It's essential to have clothes to have something in your pocket, yes. You can also have clothes with no pockets in them. Or you can have clothes with pockets with nothing in them. The person asking the question either has something in their pockets or they do not. Neither option becomes more or less likely because the person being asked the question doesn't know whether the question-asker is wearing clothes.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Molly on January 02, 2014, 12:42:04 pm
Oww, the question was if the asking person is wearing clothes? :D

That is indeed irrelevant.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: pepejul on January 02, 2014, 02:46:39 pm
LIARS !

I HAVE NO CLOTHES
BUT I HAVE SOMETHING IN MY POKET !!!


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Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Rumblood on January 02, 2014, 03:01:00 pm
Oww, the question was if the asking person is wearing clothes? :D

That is indeed irrelevant.

It was a series of 3 questions. None of which anyone has the answer to, nor can have the answer to. The only answer that can be provided to the series is "I don't know". Not yes, not no, but I don't know.
Here is something that you can firmly believe in. When Xant and I are on the same side of a discussion, you are wrong, so you might as well try to understand the point if you don't already get it.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Molly on January 02, 2014, 03:55:23 pm
It was a series of 3 questions. None of which anyone has the answer to, nor can have the answer to. The only answer that can be provided to the series is "I don't know". Not yes, not no, but I don't know.
Here is something that you can firmly believe in. When Xant and I are on the same side of a discussion, you are wrong, so you might as well try to understand the point if you don't already get it.
Lemme think about how I could possibly answer this in a proper way...

Oh, I know... Fuck you!
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Brrrak on January 02, 2014, 04:19:20 pm
So, thread's hit page 7...

Anyone convinced their former beliefs were wrong, yet?
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Xant on January 02, 2014, 05:16:14 pm
I doubt anyone's even trying to change anyone else's beliefs.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Osiris on January 02, 2014, 05:22:51 pm
I have been converted to the Pocket god.
 
The great question of our time is Does thou have anything in thy pockets.

And the pocket god sent his only son Bilbo down unto earth to check the pockets of the cursed one Gollum.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 02, 2014, 06:31:23 pm
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Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Brrrak on January 02, 2014, 07:16:53 pm
I doubt anyone's even trying to change anyone else's beliefs.

Then why bother doing anything else than shitpo--

ohhh.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Xant on January 02, 2014, 07:47:29 pm
Then why bother doing anything else than shitpo--

ohhh.
Why bother doing anything at all? Why do you browse the forums? Why'd you make that post? Why play cRPG?
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Rumblood on January 02, 2014, 07:49:47 pm
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The guy on the right is agnostic  :idea:

Lemme think about how I could possibly answer this in a proper way...

Oh, I know... Fuck you!

I know change is difficult, but you will be a better person for it after all  :wink:
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Molly on January 02, 2014, 08:07:30 pm
Like you were some intellectual pillar of the community and it would make any difference if you agree or not, Rum. :lol:

Dripping with arrogance you're certainly not entitled to. Reading some Wikipedia article on the fly doesn't give you "smartz", you know.

Why do I even bother again... Guess I am too stupid to learn this one lesson.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on January 02, 2014, 09:13:38 pm
Rumblood doesn't understand the difference when he asks "Is there a Canadian quarter in my pocket?". I do not know. I can guess.

Framed as "Do you know that I have a Canadian quarter in my pocket?" the answer is no. This makes you an agnostic regarding the contents of his pockets.

If he would've asked "Do you believe I have a Canadian quarter in my pocket?" I would say no, because I have no reason to do so. Same goes for "Do you believe my pocket is empty?". No, no I do not, why would I go around believing that? There is no proof for that claim either. Once again, if he says he has one, I'm willing to accept on the grounds of "Who cares?", but at the same time I'm not walking around believing what he has in his pockets due to the same principle.

Take that into the context of deities, you will see that I am an atheist by the mere virtue of not believing in a god. Since I also do not know whether a god exists or not, I am also agnostic.

The point is, I know what I believe, and I know what I know. I neither believe, nor do I know.

EDIT:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Rumblood on January 02, 2014, 09:21:47 pm
Like you were some intellectual pillar of the community and it would make any difference if you agree or not, Rum. :lol:

Dripping with arrogance you're certainly not entitled to. Reading some Wikipedia article on the fly doesn't give you "smartz", you know.

Why do I even bother again... Guess I am too stupid to learn this one lesson.

Also clearly lacking the ability to discern situational and ironic humor. But you have the opportunity to learn about that as well  :P


Khorin, words have meanings and agnostic was defined by the man who coined the term. You don't get to simply change the meaning and insist others accept your change. I could say that "bitch" now means "beautiful loving wife", but lets see you try calling random married women a bitch and then try to explain what you mean by the term and see how well that goes over.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on January 02, 2014, 09:30:29 pm
I am an

(click to show/hide)

and an

(click to show/hide)

I do not know who coined the term, but I use the term that is found on dictionary.com. Backed up by wikipedia's articles on agnosticism, theism and atheism.

EDIT:
Also, "bitch" is an example of a word that has gotten an added meaning since its original conception.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Clockworkkiller on January 02, 2014, 09:36:36 pm
Based god
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Brrrak on January 02, 2014, 10:24:59 pm
I'm a
(click to show/hide)
.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on January 02, 2014, 10:28:04 pm
Good for you, man. I would never try to take that away from you.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Macropus on January 03, 2014, 12:09:16 am
But you're a ninja, ninjas are supposed to steal things.   :|
^
||
||
joke

When I re-read this thread I found out Khorins argumentation was perfectly worded and clear from the very first post, not sure why I felt like I need to try and elaborate this (unsuccessfully :D )
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Falka on January 03, 2014, 03:43:41 am
Agnosticism is an artificial term made up by people scared to say that there's no god :) Outside of religion there's no such distinction, cause statements are based on facts (more or less), not belief. Noone claims to be agnostic on the subject of ufo, even though its nonexistence can not be proved. As long as proves of its existence aren't swown noone resonable will say that he "believes" in its existence.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Falka on January 03, 2014, 04:18:47 am
A gnostic atheist, would claim to know, and would probably also answer that "I believe that god does not exist."

This way all christians are gnostic atheists, cause they do believe that all forgotten gods from the past except theirs do not exist :P
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Hoppster on January 03, 2014, 04:19:50 am
you are dumb if you believe in God.

fixed that for u
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on January 03, 2014, 04:24:43 am
This way all christians are gnostic atheists, cause they do believe that all forgotten gods from the past except theirs do not exist :P
Nope, that entire thing is silly, an atheist believes in absolutely no god whatsoever existing, Christians are merely monotheists with a weird magic holy gay threesome.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Falka on January 03, 2014, 04:30:08 am
Christians are merely monotheists with a weird magic holy gay threesome.

and what about mother of god and all saints? Though they're not gods per se, they have to have some godlike superpowers, otherwise why would we pray to them? :P though they're monotheists they have more gods than in pantheon :)
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Clockworkkiller on January 03, 2014, 04:38:32 am
Do you guys just sit on the side of the road all damn day and annoy the shit out of people, telling em about your atheistic beliefs and how everyone should obey&believe them?

Cause I swear that's how you guys are acting right now.

Every other goddamn thread is about religion.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on January 03, 2014, 04:40:59 am
and what about mother of god and all saints? Though they're not gods per se, they have to have some godlike superpowers, otherwise why would we pray to them? :P though they're monotheists they have more gods than in pantheon :)
Fairly sure only Catholics worship saints and virgin Marry, Orthodoxies might also, but I doubt it. But yeah Christians are gross.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Falka on January 03, 2014, 05:00:50 am
Prove to me that God exists? No shits given, it still doesn't prove any religions are correct or that worshipping said 'God' is necessary

Though existence of some "god" can be matter of discussion, I do believe christian religion (and all other based on bible) are fake, all these fairy tales about crucified son of god are too ridiculous to be true :P

I've met a huge number of atheists who care more about trying to prove themselves right than many of the theists i've met

To be honest most of religious people who I've met don't wonder at all if god exists or if their religion is true, they just... belive.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Rumblood on January 03, 2014, 05:01:21 am
Agnosticism is an artificial term made up by people scared to say that there's no god :) Outside of religion there's no such distinction, cause statements are based on facts (more or less), not belief. Noone claims to be agnostic on the subject of ufo, even though its nonexistence can not be proved. As long as proves of its existence aren't swown noone resonable will say that he "believes" in its existence.

Wrong. UFO stands for Unidentified Flying Object. The Air Force opened Project Blue Book to study the reports of them. They still have hundreds of UFO's on the books.

http://www.archives.gov/foia/ufos.html#usafac (http://www.archives.gov/foia/ufos.html#usafac)

Quote
From 1947 to 1969, a total of 12, 618 sightings were reported to Project BLUE BOOK. Of these 701 remain "Unidentified."

God is not measurable, and thus can't be compared to physical phenomenon.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Hoppster on January 03, 2014, 05:36:11 am
Though existence of some "god" can be matter of discussion, I do believe christian religion (and all other based on bible) are fake, all these fairy tales about crucified son of god are too ridiculous to be true

My god, best god? is that how it works now?

Every religion is based on lies and fairy tales, and thats fine, if u belive in that kind of thing. Realistically religion used to be a great way of controling people and getting them to live their lives in a certain way. but we've come so much further than that now, it's not needed anymore, and it causes/ has caused so much trouble, war and death that could have been avoided if people didn't blindly believe in stupid outdated religion.

I see it everyday, i live in one of the most multi-cultural cities in the UK and the amount of religious based segregation is unreal, theres so much hate and rivaly, and for what?
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on January 03, 2014, 05:43:18 am
You're forgetting that people try to make laws/teach revisionist history + science/do crazy batshit things in general based on their religious beliefs.

I think it's far less offensive to be considered stupid or ignorant for your belief vs deserving hell, but I just try to steer clear of those crazy people handing out flyers and yelling things in subway stations.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Falka on January 03, 2014, 05:53:32 am
Do you guys just sit on the side of the road all damn day and annoy the shit out of people, telling em about your atheistic beliefs and how everyone should obey&believe them?

 :lol: That's exactly what religion, priests and religious lobbyists do; say everyone how to act, say what is sin, what is moral, even though I'm not interested in their opinion. And no, they don't say it hidden in churches, they come to media, government "and annoy the shit out of people, telling em about their religious beliefs and how everyone should obey&believe them". Huh, poor religious people, bashed on the internet by evil atheists :P

where were all the 'brave internet warriors against religious fanaticism' 1000 years ago when being vocal on that subject required true bravery?

Yeah, why u didn't stop witch hunt 1000 years ago u internet warriors  :D

You're free to believe what you want when you want, suddenly that isn't enough for most people, they have to go around being loud and obnoxious in their beliefs, trying to get everyone to believe the same thing as them,

You're right, religion is victimised  :wink: I'm very far from telling anyone what to do, especially what to believe, though don't see any reason why should I restrain myself from saying what I think about relgion. And if it "annoys the shit out of you"? Well, don't read then would be my advice probably.

My god, best god? is that how it works now?

Um? Definitely not mine.

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That's why I hate relgion - relgion, not relgious people, almost whole my family are catholics.

Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Clockworkkiller on January 03, 2014, 06:24:29 am
Hoppster
(click to show/hide)
Falka
(click to show/hide)

Pretentious format i know, but Falka replied mid-post and spoilers save walls of text.

Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Falka on January 03, 2014, 06:38:21 am
Why you put that in quotation marks? I never said that lol. Kinda misleading.

Quote from Clockworkkiller, no harm done I hope :P

meeting up to discuss their beliefs and try and convert people to believe the same xD it's hilarious. It's like if i decided to shoot a gun-owner to prove how much i hate guns and how i would never ever use one.

More like swearing at politics or laughing at idiots in media, why should I try to convince anyone that his religion is utter bullshit. If someone wants to believe in fairy tales - I'm fine with that. But I like to laugh at religion, priests and so on, you find it hilarious? That's okay :P
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Xant on January 03, 2014, 09:32:03 am
And few of the extremely vocal atheists will ever in their lives contemplate the possibility that they might be wrong, they also just... believe.
Because most atheists are more intelligent than you are. Most people don't go about their lives contemplating whether they might be wrong about Saruman really existing either.



Quote
I could see a beardy fellow tear the sky and announce his existence in a booming voice, but to me there is no logical step that would lead me from knowing he was real, to worshipping him.
Your logic fails hard, then. Not that this is exactly news. But that stance is one of the most retarded ones I've seen, especially considering how religions like to preach about eternal punishment if you don't believe in their deity.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on January 03, 2014, 11:51:57 am
Agnosticism is an artificial term made up by people scared to say that there's no god :) Outside of religion there's no such distinction, cause statements are based on facts (more or less), not belief. Noone claims to be agnostic on the subject of ufo, even though its nonexistence can not be proved. As long as proves of its existence aren't swown noone resonable will say that he "believes" in its existence.

Strange thing to say when there are tons of people who believe that UFO's exist, without actually knowing. No they don't call themselves agnostic on the subject, because that has a religious connotation.

This is assuming UFO stands for aliens.

This way all christians are gnostic atheists, cause they do believe that all forgotten gods from the past except theirs do not exist :P

Except they do believe in a god so they are theists.

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Mix of apatheism and agnosticism.

Yes, there are atheists who are douchebags, I've met my fair share of theists who are douchebags. Personally, I don't really care what you are, if I like you, I like you. If I don't like you, then I don't. Arguing over whether god exists with a theist leads nowhere, and it's not like I know anything anyway. However, if someone actually starts arguing with me on the subject, then I'll go along 'til both are exhausted on the topic. Rarely on the internet, though, since I can simply ignore that.

And Heskey, people have always been loud an obnoxious about their beliefs, that's nothing new. The topics only change over time. However, I do disagree that vocal atheists are extremists. So called militant atheists are. Atheists who are simply willing to argue religion when they feel like it's intruding on their lives in an unfair way are not doing anything wrong.

I'd take your point more seriously if you weren't so obnoxious about it.

God is not measurable, and thus can't be compared to physical phenomenon.

A surprising insight you have on the nature of God.

On the topic of religion causing harm. Yes, yes it does. That can't be questioned, really. But people are very good at finding reasons to do harm, so getting rid of religion would not change much. As an institution, I see no need in it, since I've yet to see God proven, but then again, if he ever is, it's good that we have the groundwork ready for massworship. I'm also not one to burn down the ship to get rid of the cockroaches. But, yes, it's painful how religion divides people in a way that causes so many problems. In school we had a turk and an israeli who simply refused to work together, since the turk considered her a zionist jew (not even joking). I realize, that's more of a political issue, but the entire issue is caused by a massive religious clusterfuck.

I feel that I don't really care what people believe, but people should be taught certain things. And one of those, is that even though they believe, they can't possibly know, unless they've had one of those personal visitations from god. If we could convince the majority of theists and atheists to sincerely admit that, then maybe people will be less willing to be idiots.

You only have to go to any youtube comment section on any video that discusses religion and you will find enough of both arrogant theists and atheists to last a lifetime.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on January 03, 2014, 12:23:39 pm
Well guys, it's not easy to satisfy every single deity with so many religions out there, but i took some percussions, just in case if God really does exist:
 
Apparently, Kratos (http://forum.melee.org/index.php?action=profile;u=14548) can offer a sweet deal to ensure Allah's eternal blessing for only 10.000 cRPG gold coins! I was lucky enough to put my hands on a holy peasant hat, and the rest of the artifacts got sold almost immediately! He might have some more sacred relics in stock, so post in the thread or send him a PM.
 
http://forum.melee.org/spam/hello-all/msg928208/#new (http://forum.melee.org/spam/hello-all/msg928208/#new)
 

http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=marketplacebooth&merchant=Muslim_Wizard
 
Buy them and Allah s blessing will be upon you forever!!!

 
If anyone got Buddah's robes, or that spear that finished off Jesus - put them up for sale! If you make a good advertisement, and make me believe you have the original relics - i will give a good price!
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Berserkadin on January 03, 2014, 12:34:57 pm
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Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Falka on January 03, 2014, 02:17:53 pm
Strange thing to say when there are tons of people who believe that UFO's exist, without actually knowing.

That's why I said "noone resonable" :P

Except they do believe in a god so they are theists.

It's supposed to be a joke, like in this saying that christians don't believe in x gods and atheists just went one step further and don't believe in x+1 gods :P

You only have to go to any youtube comment section on any video that discusses religion and you will find enough of both arrogant theists and atheists to last a lifetime.

I doubt there's a lot of atheists who are willing to make second 9.11 cause of their lack of faith :P

Atheists adamantly believe something they have no proof of

No, they don't believe, that's the whole of point of being atheist you know  :lol:

 
quit trying to ram your religious beliefs down our throats you arrogant hypocritical sack of shit

That's the problem with religious people, they tend to go apeshit when someone say their beliefs are ridiculous spooky tales while no one cares about my feelings when religions tell me that I'm gonna suffer for eternity in hell cause don't believe in some fantasy book...  :wink:

 
''Guh Xant, errrrr, most Chistians are more intelligent than you. Cos the majority don't spend their time desperately trying to prove that Saruman doesn't exist.''

The only difference between bible and WoTR is that on the cover of later one is the name of the author, both are fantasy books :P
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Falka on January 03, 2014, 02:27:21 pm
Quote
Shittest atheist i ever saw - you're exactly the kind of hypocrite who'd talk all this shit but get on his knees and suck God-dick the moment he had proof a God existed

Lol, if god provided proofs of its existence ofc that I'd admit there's a god, why shouldn't I, it would be irrational to deny in such case :P
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on January 03, 2014, 02:37:43 pm
I doubt there's a lot of atheists who are willing to make second 9.11 cause of their lack of faith :P

No, but there are plenty of atheists willing to kill or get themselves killed for equally foolish causes, so I don't care to make the distinction in that regard.

My point is, the reason people kill people is more deeprooted than religion. It's that aspect of humanity we need to tackle. Religion, like any ideology, might lower the bar if you really believe in it. Religion is popular, though, so having the religious majority condemn these people should happen, and does happen. Though does it happen enough is a question I can't answer.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Falka on January 03, 2014, 03:18:43 pm
Count the number of times you've said 'believe' in your own posts in relation to your opinion on this matter, it's a lot :lol:

Checked, I said it once: "I do believe christian religion (and all other based on bible) are fake, all these fairy tales about crucified son of god are too ridiculous to be true :P". Wouldn't call it "a lot" :P

Not gonna keep this discussion going, cause it's all the time beating the same dead horse as in plenty of books, I'd ragher laugh at religion than have semi "serious" discussion about it :P Only one point.

Quote
You have no reason or proof to believe it other than your own determination to believe it. It is just 'obvious' to you in the same way that God is 'obvious' to Christians.

Existence and non existence of pink unicorn aren't equally probable :P
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Xant on January 03, 2014, 04:22:04 pm
Oh, you're INTELLIGENT so that's why you're right? Great argument!

Not what I wrote.

Quote
To quote every rational atheist ever; 'i dont care what you believe as long as you don't cram it down my throat', you could learn a thing or 2 from them Xant, quit trying to ram your religious beliefs down our throats you arrogant hypocritical sack of shit :)
Show me where the hypocrisy is.

Quote
''Guh Xant, errrrr, most Chistians are more intelligent than you. Cos the majority don't spend their time desperately trying to prove that Saruman doesn't exist.''
You think Saruman, the White Wizard, exists? There are some mental institutes near you that can help.

Quote
]Nah, your 'intelligence' fails hard, i never said i believe in religious mumbo-jumbo any more than you do
Never said you did, your belief is irrelevant.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Rumblood on January 03, 2014, 06:10:53 pm
Strange thing to say when there are tons of people who believe that UFO's exist, without actually knowing. No they don't call themselves agnostic on the subject, because that has a religious connotation.

This is assuming UFO stands for aliens.

That's why I said "noone resonable" :P

So Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 Astronaut, the 6th man to walk on the moon is "no one reasonable"? Fife Symington, former Arizona governor?


Paul Hellyer, former Minister of National Defense for Canada is "no one reasonable"?

Stanton Friedman, nuclear physicist and first civilian investigator of Roswell is "no on reasonable"?

How about all of the pilots from various armed forces across the globe, experts on aircraft, who have reported seeing objects from up close, in the air, and say that they did not come from this planet?

High level, very intelligent people who suddenly went crazy? Or a systematic attempt by government forces who want them to look crazy?

Watch this video with Boyd Bushman, a senior scientist at Lockheed Martin as he seems to try speak to a topic he can't talk about.


I still don't know, the jury is out until I see some evidence myself, but I certainly think that there are some very reasonable people out there with some very interesting things to say on the matter who do believe.

Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Falka on January 03, 2014, 06:32:42 pm
People tend to say that they believe when they want to express their hope or convinction about some subject. "I believe that brazil will win mundial". In such context you can not equate it with faith in god. But if someone firmly and categorically states that aliens exist though he has not the slightest trace of proof then it's irrational and unreasonable.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: pepejul on January 03, 2014, 07:48:22 pm
pple kill other pple when they think they are right, they have the only truth... it can be religious, politic, nationalism...Etc...

just think to this : maybe the other side in AS RIGHT AS YOURS.... and it will be no war anymore.....
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 03, 2014, 07:52:08 pm
pple kill other pple when they think they are right, they have the only truth... it can be religious, politic, nationalism...Etc...

just think to this : maybe the other side in AS RIGHT AS YOURS.... and it will be no war anymore.....

I disagree with your opinion, and will murdle you for it.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Brrrak on January 03, 2014, 08:08:33 pm
pple kill other pple when they think they are right, they have the only truth... it can be religious, politic, nationalism...Etc...

just think to this : maybe the other side in AS RIGHT AS YOURS.... and it will be no war anymore.....

What if I don't think your side is as correct as mine, but have no problem with your continued holding to that side, and simply live my life the way I feel is best, and don't bother you?

Atheists = 0
Christians = 0
UFOs = In the Stratosphere.

Checkmate.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Lars on January 03, 2014, 08:19:04 pm
Fairly sure only Catholics worship saints and virgin Marry, Orthodoxies might also, but I doubt it. But yeah Christians are gross.

Especially virgin Mary with tuberculosis


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Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Rumblood on January 03, 2014, 08:31:00 pm
People tend to say that they believe when they want to express their hope or convinction about some subject. "I believe that brazil will win mundial". In such context you can not equate it with faith in god. But if someone firmly and categorically states that aliens exist though he has not the slightest trace of proof then it's irrational and unreasonable.

Some of these guys have seen the "proof" with their own eyes. Just because they didn't capture the alien ship doesn't make their proof any less valid to them. I mean, have you managed to capture God yet? Clarke's 3rd law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. (or God)
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Taser on January 03, 2014, 09:07:44 pm
I disagree with your opinion, and will murdle you for it.

Murder cuddle? Murdle?
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 03, 2014, 09:10:06 pm
I dunno it's just a different way that I say murder.  I sometimes use it as past tense "he got murdled"
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Molly on January 04, 2014, 12:20:39 am
I dunno it's just a different way that I say murder.  I sometimes use it as past tense "he got murdled"
"He had been murdled"?
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on January 04, 2014, 06:19:51 am
"He had been murdled"?

Maybe past tense isn't the right description, don't critique me
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Xant on January 04, 2014, 10:52:04 pm
http://www.theonion.com/articles/local-church-full-of-brainwashed-idiots-feeds-town,34860/?ref=auto
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Brrrak on January 05, 2014, 03:10:18 am
http://www.theonion.com/articles/local-church-full-of-brainwashed-idiots-feeds-town,34860/?ref=auto

What an obscure and mysterious cult.  I hope they don't become too large.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Molly on January 05, 2014, 09:06:08 am
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/12/30/publics-views-on-human-evolution/ (http://www.pewforum.org/2013/12/30/publics-views-on-human-evolution/)

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This is rather interesting...
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: LordBerenger on January 05, 2014, 11:45:05 am
There is no God but Allah and Muhammed is his prophet.

Knew this thread were missing something.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: pepejul on January 05, 2014, 12:17:36 pm
Oh Oh Oh Mohammed is Yéti ?
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Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: SixThumbs on January 05, 2014, 04:08:09 pm
Looks like Muhammad needed to see a podiatrist.
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: LordBerenger on January 05, 2014, 04:36:56 pm
Looks like Muhammad needed to see a podiatrist.

WOW....JIHAD ON THIS HEATHEN INFIDEL!

Allahu akbar!
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: BASNAK on January 05, 2014, 05:01:58 pm
WOW....JIHAD ON THIS HEATHEN INFIDEL!

Allahu akbar!

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Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: LordBerenger on January 05, 2014, 05:54:55 pm
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You can't hate what you can't stop.


Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Rumblood on January 05, 2014, 06:13:43 pm
With that short hair and itty bitty titties she looks as though she is a Bieber wannabe.  :?
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: LordBerenger on January 05, 2014, 06:20:02 pm
With that short hair and itty bitty titties she looks as though she is a Bieber wannabe.  :?

Pfft i bet you would love to get a shot at her. Or get an autograph to your daughter/son
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Clockworkkiller on January 05, 2014, 07:20:27 pm
With that short hair and itty bitty titties she looks as though she is a Bieber wannabe.  :?

I'm pretty sure she is a man
Disgusting avatar, makes me puke
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: LordBerenger on January 05, 2014, 08:14:06 pm
I'm pretty sure she is a man
Disgusting avatar, makes me puke

Look who's speaking furry my old friendgt
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Rumblood on January 05, 2014, 09:03:14 pm
Pfft i bet you would love to get a shot at her. Or get an autograph to your daughter/son

I prefer women, so does my son, and my daughter certainly isn't interested in someone who can't stop wrecking his own balls  :lol:
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Clockworkkiller on January 05, 2014, 09:09:29 pm
Look who's speaking furry my old friendgt

Atleast mine actually has tits and isn't a man!
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: LordBerenger on January 05, 2014, 09:24:33 pm
Atleast mine actually has tits and isn't a man!

Miley got tits and a vagina and isn't covered in animated fur!
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Xant on January 05, 2014, 09:25:15 pm
Anyway, God is a pretty dapper fellow, what?
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: LordBerenger on January 05, 2014, 09:44:57 pm
Anyway, God is a pretty dapper fellow, what?

No this is the Miley Cyrus thread now. Begone with your TL;DR 1000 Words per post about your Religious opinions.

#TWERK
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Clockworkkiller on January 05, 2014, 09:48:40 pm
No fuck you, I'm taking over

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Molly on January 06, 2014, 10:14:32 am
I wonder where this is going now...
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: LordBerenger on January 06, 2014, 11:01:21 am
I wonder where this is going now...

Miley Cyrus killed Ad0lf H1tl3r your nation's former leader
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: pingpong on January 06, 2014, 12:37:11 pm
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Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on January 06, 2014, 01:01:10 pm
I'm pretty sure she is a man
Disgusting avatar, makes me puke

Miley got tits and a vagina and isn't covered in animated fur!

Boys! Boys!.. Let's keep it civil, please! Why don't we keep both?..

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Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: LordBerenger on January 06, 2014, 04:09:44 pm
Boys! Boys!.. Let's keep it civil, please! Why don't we keep both?..

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What the fuck did you do to Miley!?
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Rumblood on January 06, 2014, 04:16:58 pm
What the fuck did you do to Miley!?

Ahahahahah  :lol:
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Molly on January 06, 2014, 04:18:30 pm
I think "it" is called "Furley" now...  :lol:
Title: Re: Believe in God #2
Post by: Clockworkkiller on January 06, 2014, 08:56:04 pm
Dear god, lock the thread before it escapes!