Believe in God #2

[Ninja_Khorin]

I'm an agnostic atheist.

I was a pretty stout atheist for a while but looking back it was a more of a backlash towards Christianity. I guess I'm agnostic these days.

I'm mildly annoyed when people dodge the "Do you believe in gods?" question by saying they are agnostic. Either you do believe or you don't, there's not really much fence sitting on a yes or no question. On the other hand, it's completely fine to be an agnostic atheist or agnostic theist, where you say "I do(n't) believe, but I do not know". And that's agnostic (a)theism.

[bilwit]

I'm an agnostic atheist.

I'm mildly annoyed when people dodge the "Do you believe in gods?" question by saying they are agnostic. Either you do believe or you don't, there's not really much fence sitting on a yes or no question. On the other hand, it's completely fine to be an agnostic atheist or agnostic theist, where you say "I do(n't) believe, but I do not know". And that's agnostic (a)theism.

Herpderp so you can only think in extremes? Us versus them? Good old George W Bush did too. How do you account for what you would consider an agnostic nihilist then?

[Dezilagel]

Pretentious twat?

And your arguing is wrong on so many levels.

Goddamn edit.

[bilwit]

Now that I think of it I guess that would be considered "agnostic atheist" to him then. It's asinine that apparently it "would not be fine" to him unless you append with that qualifier though.

[Xant]

Yay, let's start over the argument over semantics again!

Atheism, when 99,99999% people say they are atheists, means that those people don't believe in the deities of any of Earth's religions any more than they believe that Bilbo Baggins is The One True God, because both have as much evidence behind them. I have never, ever met an atheist who proclaimed that it was completely and utterly impossible for there to exist any kind of a being that would appear godlike to us.

Atheism: a lack of belief that god exists. You can get more hippy over it and trying to differentiate yourself from everyone else by trying to show off how cool you are by saying you're agnostic or paracrostic, but newsflash: you're not different.

[Rumblood]

I'm an agnostic atheist.

I'm mildly annoyed when people dodge the "Do you believe in gods?" question by saying they are agnostic. Either you do believe or you don't, there's not really much fence sitting on a yes or no question. On the other hand, it's completely fine to be an agnostic atheist or agnostic theist, where you say "I do(n't) believe, but I do not know". And that's agnostic (a)theism.

No, an agnostic does not know, and in fact believes it is impossible to know, thus will never answer that question yes or no. The answer is "It is impossible to know".

[Ninja_Khorin]

Now that I think of it I guess that would be considered "agnostic atheist" to him then. It's asinine that apparently it "would not be fine" to him unless you append with that qualifier though.

Oh. Sorry, did not really mean to upset you or anyone else with what I said. It's just a minor bugbear I have when people argue religion.

My point was that agnosticism and atheism isn't mutually exclusive. I have nothing against people who call themselves agnostics, since we usually share the same belief, and I'm also an agnostic.

No, an agnostic does not know, and in fact believes it is impossible to know, thus will never answer that question yes or no. The answer is "It is impossible to know".

Did I say differently? Although with an added caveat that there are agnostics who are of the opinion that at this point in time it is impossible to know, but might be possible in the future.

This however has little to do with what a person believes, since I know plenty of people who say that they believe in god, but they don't have any actual knowledge if he really exists or not. It's a matter of faith. These people are agnostic theists.

Whether they answer my question or not, I have trouble wrapping my head around on how someone can neither believe or not believe. And yes, I agree that for the moment it is impossible to know.

Basically, if someone is asked the question "Do you believe in god/gods?" and he can't answer yes, then he does not believe. Or am I being dumb in thinking this? How is it impossible to know what you yourself believe?

And sorry if I completely derailed this very civil discussion on religion with semantics.

I try my best to follow Bertrand Russell's message, so if you feel offended by what I say, I can only apologize.

[Grumbs]

I'm aware we're not born "tabula rasa", a blank state in which we and others imprint things onto the mind, and I understand that neurologists say we have a "neuroplasicity" within our brains and that instead of losing information we only weaken synapses. But that's about the pennyworth of knowledge I have on that subject and what the deuce is it to me if I can't be as cognizant of the subject as neurologists and psychologists?

"--and now I was going to bring back all such things into my life and become again that most limited of all specialists, the 'well-rounded man.' This isn't just an epigram--life is much more successfully looked at from a single window, after all."

[Macropus]

To be honest, I'd be glad to be able to believe in some superbeing like God. It must be easier/simpler to live that way. But I can't, sadly. All this religion thing just doesn't make much sense to me.

A good example of what I think on this matter might be this Tim Minchin's video (yes I like to insert random videos in random topics):

[Rumblood]

Did I say differently? Although with an added caveat that there are agnostics who are of the opinion that at this point in time it is impossible to know, but might be possible in the future.

This however has little to do with what a person believes, since I know plenty of people who say that they believe in god, but they don't have any actual knowledge if he really exists or not. It's a matter of faith. These people are agnostic theists.

Whether they answer my question or not, I have trouble wrapping my head around on how someone can neither believe or not believe. And yes, I agree that for the moment it is impossible to know.

Basically, if someone is asked the question "Do you believe in god/gods?" and he can't answer yes, then he does not believe. Or am I being dumb in thinking this? How is it impossible to know what you yourself believe?

Regardless of the people trying to take the term themselves, they are not agnostic. They are atheists or theists of varying degrees. But they are not agnostic as they have formed an opinion of the unknowable, and thus are not agnostic.
I don't see how you don't understand not knowing something. While this is completely off base when it comes to agnosticism as it deals with the material, which is measurable, as far as you are concerned it is not measurable. So answer me yes or no, is there a Canadian quarter in my pocket? In fact, are there even pockets on the clothes that I am currently wearing? Yes or no? In fact, am I even wearing clothes? Yes or no?
Since you can't observe anything concerning those questions, nor have any other way of ascertaining the truth of those questions, the only honest answer you can give is you don't know, nor can you know. To assume either or state either yes or no is simply a lie on your part.

[Macropus]

I don't see how you don't understand not knowing something. While this is completely off base when it comes to agnosticism as it deals with the material, which is measurable, as far as you are concerned it is not measurable. So answer me yes or no, is there a Canadian quarter in my pocket? In fact, are there even pockets on the clothes that I am currently wearing? Yes or no? In fact, am I even wearing clothes? Yes or no?
Since you can't observe anything concerning those questions, nor have any other way of ascertaining the truth of those questions, the only honest answer you can give is you don't know, nor can you know. To assume either or state either yes or no is simply a lie on your part.

What Khorin talks about is a bit different IMO. He doesn't say "There is no god", he says "I don't believe in god". The first is impossible without certain knowledge, the second is not.
Applying it to your example, he could answer "I don't believe you have this thing (whatever it is) in your pocket, because I don't know whether you're even wearing clothes right now or not".

[Xant]

That doesn't make sense. Why would he have reason to believe there is no thing in his pocket if he doesn't know he's wearing clothes?

[Macropus]

That doesn't make sense. Why would he have reason to believe there is no thing in his pocket

because...

he doesn't know he's wearing clothes

Note that we're not talking about the case when Grannpappy himself says he does have that thing in his pocket, same as god can't say "I do exist" to get "No you fucking don't" as an anwser, which would be weird indeed.

I assume that if I have no knowledge on the matter, my default stance is "not believing", so I actually have to get a reason to believe in something, not reason not to believe.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

That doesn't make sense. Why would he have reason to believe there is no thing in his pocket if he doesn't know he's wearing clothes?

It's a guess, just like whether god exists or not is an (educated) guess.

[Xant]

because...
Note that we're not talking about the case when Grannpappy himself says he does have that thing in his pocket, same as god can't say "I do exist" to get "No you fucking don't" as an anwser, which would be weird indeed.

I assume that if I have no knowledge on the matter, my default stance is "not believing", so I actually have to get a reason to believe in something, not reason not to believe.

No, you have no reason to assume one way or the other. That means it'd be stupid to say "I don't believe you have X in your pocket, because I don't even know if you're wearing pants." Your map being blank has nothing to do with the state of the territory. If you have no more information than that, a rational agent does not say "I don't believe you." A rational agent says "I have no way of knowing; therefore, it is a 50-50 possibility."