cRPG

Off Topic => General Off Topic => Topic started by: Sir_Hans on October 16, 2013, 01:53:18 pm

Title: How to fight crime.
Post by: Sir_Hans on October 16, 2013, 01:53:18 pm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/brazil/10377292/Caught-on-camera-Brazilian-robber-shot-while-trying-to-take-motorcycle.html

So awesome.... that off duty cop is a boss.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Xant on October 16, 2013, 01:57:57 pm
Why is this awesome, and what makes that cop a "boss"?
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Materia on October 16, 2013, 02:07:51 pm
Why awesome? Maybe because he shown up, at the right moment, and did what I would want more cops to do? Instead of trying to capture and put to jail, just shoot these scumbags.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Malaclypse on October 16, 2013, 02:10:33 pm
Come on that cop was a hero, everyone knows stuff is more valuable than human life.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Sir_Hans on October 16, 2013, 02:11:49 pm
awe·some
ˈôsəm/Submit
adjective
1.
extremely impressive or daunting; inspiring great admiration, apprehension, or fear.

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Why awesome? Maybe because he shown up, at the right moment, and did what I would want more cops to do? Instead of trying to capture and put to jail, just shoot these scumbags.

This.

My car got broken into, they caught the guy red handed. He went to jail for 1 night, went to court and was ordered to pay 600$ restitution for stolen items never recovered from the car. He never paid... Never served more than the single night in jail when he was initially caught, and now that his probation is done and over there is no consequence.

If off duty cops shot people to death more as they committed theft. There would be a lot less theft in the world.  8-)


Come on that cop was a hero, everyone knows stuff is more valuable than human life.

When the life in question is someone who's going around with a gun jacking people of their vehicles... Then yes. Stuff is much more valuable than that human life.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Sniger on October 16, 2013, 02:28:44 pm
good stuff he use the passing car as a cover to hide that he is getting out of his car to take aim on the my old friend :D 2 shots, gg. priceless. if you are armed, ppl may shoot you. learn.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Vibe on October 16, 2013, 02:36:49 pm
Call Burnt Face Man!

www.fat-pie.com/burntfaceman/‎
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on October 16, 2013, 03:03:03 pm
Come on that cop was a hero, everyone knows stuff is more valuable than human life.
Give me everything you own or I'll kill myself, human life bro!
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Tibe on October 16, 2013, 03:35:50 pm
Well that dirtbag would have probably driven away if the cop hadnt taken a shot and good fucking luck trying to get anything that was stolen from you recovered in motherfucking Brazil. :lol:
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Miwiw on October 16, 2013, 03:37:44 pm
Nice murder. Dumb cop... seriously.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: no_rules_just_play on October 16, 2013, 03:43:05 pm
Nice murder. Dumb cop... seriously.
This. So fucking this.
It might have been a fake gun and he started shooting in public..
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Miwiw on October 16, 2013, 03:45:12 pm
I doubt the gun wasn't real though and wouldn't risk it. But I don't get why certain cops in certain countries always have to 1hit those guys.... like in front of the white house, "No we had to shoot that bitch,.."   :shock:
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Bjord on October 16, 2013, 03:50:38 pm
One less scumbag, gg crime. no re
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Butan on October 16, 2013, 04:11:25 pm
I was waiting for a "philosophical" topic on how to fight crime, in which I would have probably said something along these lines : "How to fight crime : a never ending battle."


Now, "How to fight armed criminals when doing criminal activities" : guns can be useful indeed  :wink:




Quote
Nice murder. Dumb cop... seriously.
Quote
This. So fucking this.
It might have been a fake gun and he started shooting in public..

Murdering criminals and dealing with it is a part of a cop job. All murders arent equal. Be it morally or legally.

Those kind of comments make it hard for cops though.


The only way to deal with guns is guns.
No possibility to detect a fake + in the middle of armed robbery = no warning shoot approved (at least for me, then maybe there is some dumb laws somewhere to prove me wrong).

Being in a public place increase the difficulty of the choice the cop made, but he made that choice and chose to deal with what may happen.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Tibe on October 16, 2013, 04:17:16 pm
I doubt the gun wasn't real though and wouldn't risk it. But I don't get why certain cops in certain countries always have to 1hit those guys.... like in front of the white house, "No we had to shoot that bitch,.."   :shock:
Well from the Whitehouse part. As far as ive heard, in crowded and certain state places Brits and Americans aim for the head incase its a suicidebomber. Again this is basically Brazil. Some deadbeat  South-American slumfilled country where people getting their limbs cut off and massacres is like a everyday thing. The criminals in that country dont give a crap. They go for the kill as much as the cops do.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Vodner on October 16, 2013, 04:19:27 pm
One less scumbag. I'm normally pretty left leaning on most subjects, but if it comes down to deciding between personal property and a thief, just shoot the guy.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Bjord on October 16, 2013, 04:22:27 pm
After some scumbag kids stole my bicycle under the roof of my own car port, I've had zero sympathy for thieves, even less armed robbers. Anyone threatening a person's life with deadly force should be eliminated without remorse.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Dezilagel on October 16, 2013, 04:44:36 pm
There's nothing "awesome" about something like this which is a fucking tragedy to begin with.

In my opinion one should really consider the bigger implications of devaluing human life before deciding on (what is once again in my opinion) such a crude definition of justice as this.

The cop did his job, but a hero? Not really.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: AntiBlitz on October 16, 2013, 04:57:40 pm
Nice murder. Dumb cop... seriously.

I smell a Gun debate, am i too late to join in?  My last gun debate lasted 20 pages.

yes armed robber committing a felony crime which had the means to harm all civilian life in the process, yep justified shooting.  Robber knew the consequences of bringing the handgun, and the cop had the means to stop him.  Textbook shooting, not murder, only person who calls this murder are hippy Yurops, please lets talk about the value of life of a piece of shit williing to deprive you of your life possibly over a fucking bike. 

Welcome to debating things with foreign countries, they all think scum of the earth need over 9,000 chances at life because maybe at one point they will redeem themselves and come back to the norm of society(doesnt happen).  Next theyll tell you he should have shot off warning shots in the busy city while the guy had a fucking gun, lol.  Im sure given how fierce the comments have already been someone will pull up Brazilian law, and law enforcement procedures to continue some bullshit rant about this scums valuable life. 
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Miwiw on October 16, 2013, 07:40:31 pm
I also find it funny that a policeman who is off duty, is allowed to wear his gun.
In this case it wasn't even his duty to interfere.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Bjord on October 16, 2013, 07:58:42 pm
There's nothing "awesome" about something like this which is a fucking tragedy to begin with.

In my opinion one should really consider the bigger implications of devaluing human life before deciding on (what is once again in my opinion) such a crude definition of justice as this.

The cop did his job, but a hero? Not really.

I'm troubled here. I don't know whether I find your teenage naïvety cute or outright obnoxious. Typical Swedish left wing wannabe kid who claims injustice for the sake of voicing his opinion.

A worthless and harmful individual was removed from existence, there is absolutely nothing tragic about that. You may think so, living in luxury in your little bubble that is social welfare and security - but for the people that live in high crime rate areas, people like him are a plague. Do you think that was his first offense? That he was suddenly struck with an epiphany one day?
"Gee williker! I normally don't carry guns on me, but I've been wanting that flat screen TV for a while. Better go rob some poor fucker, fuck living an honest life!"
He was most likely already an unlawful citizen, only this time, retribution was close at hand.

You'll probably argue that he is not the root of the evil and therefore should be treated humanely, and you'd argue partly correct.
He is not the root of the issue, that I concede. Because, why would he? He's just some idiot with an already bleak outlook on life. If he didn't get killed by that cop, he'd probably still be dead within no more than 10 years unless he was lucky. The root of evil is many things and I doubt I could list them all without challenging your attention span, but the main issue here still isn't that the guy was given no consideration to his life, but that individuals like him are not discouraged enough to live a life of crime.

The off-duty police officer acted with quick and just judgment, I'm fairly positive that the majority of his fellow policemen agreed with the decision. Not only his peers but other people that are daily subjected to armed robbery, violence and similar vile acts would also feel inclined to be comforted by his deed.

A cancerous rat like him should be dealt with no mercy. At least until the cure for that cancer is discovered, but that will most likely not be within our lifetime. Until then, guys like him deserve no sympathy, for others may follow in his crime ridden endeavours.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Xant on October 16, 2013, 08:07:31 pm
I also find it funny that a policeman who is off duty, is allowed to wear his gun.
Why is this funny?

Also, calling someone who steps out of his car and shoots a thief without any warning (after he's put his gun away) a "hero" is pretty absurd.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Kafein on October 16, 2013, 08:08:14 pm
I suppose a warning would have been nicer, and why two shots ?
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Miwiw on October 16, 2013, 08:11:24 pm
Why is this funny?

Could replace that word with "dumb" or anything you like.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Kafein on October 16, 2013, 08:12:43 pm
I personally prefer the cop doing that than doing nothing. Armed robbery is a dangerous habit.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Xant on October 16, 2013, 08:13:17 pm
Could replace that word with "dumb" or anything you like.
Replace it with dumb, then.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Miwiw on October 16, 2013, 08:14:13 pm
In that video you saw nothing happen, so there was no reason to kill that guy. So I call it murder.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Bjord on October 16, 2013, 08:15:24 pm
He'a no hero by any means, for that his actions would have to be defying fear and drastically make an impact on every day life in a positive manner. That was just one scum bag eliminated. He'd be a hero if he killed some big kingpin off-duty. I'm pretty sure he acted from frustration and anger.

The robber had no idea there was a cop nearby, and the officer aptly used the element of surprise. If anything, he was cold and firm. The proper way to deal with criminals that endanger the lives of law abiding citizens.

Letting him go could potentially risk an innocent (innocent in the blind eyes of law, that is) person's life.

In that video you saw nothing happen, so there was no reason to kill that guy. So I call it murder.

And I call you dumb, because that's what you are.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Xant on October 16, 2013, 08:17:03 pm
In that video you saw nothing happen, so there was no reason to kill that guy. So I call it murder.
You're jumping all over the place here. Whether this was murder or not has nothing to do with it being "dumb" or "funny" for a police officer to be carrying while off-duty.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Teeth on October 16, 2013, 08:19:17 pm
Again this is basically Brazil. Some deadbeat  South-American slumfilled country where people getting their limbs cut off and massacres is like a everyday thing. The criminals in that country dont give a crap. They go for the kill as much as the cops do.
Brazil has long stopped being a deadbeat country. Brazil is rich, but also one of most economically unequal countries in the world. Perhaps being raised in cabin of 10 square meters next to a 3 meter high wall which the goverment built to keep your dirty favela grown ass from interfering with the lives of people that have more money than they know how to spend, changes your morals a little when it comes to property. You having barely any social mobility, looking at a death in your early fifties, living a 100 meters from people whose offspring will get to go to a good school and live a long and affluent life.

Displayed here are classic western morals, where a life of affluence and equal economical opportunities make us view criminals as failures who chose a life of crime because they wanted to take the easy way. Obviously they deserve to die. Well guess what, in a large part of the world dealing with criminals or becoming a criminal is fairly inescapable or definitions of what is fair or just might change a little. The moral superiority of cops and officials compared to criminals becomes a little less clear when you have to pay both to be able to make a living. No longer abiding a law system that is thoroughly corrupt and enables the rich to get richer while keeping you to live and die in the gutter is a choice many of us would probably make when in similar circumstances. Criminality is not always a clear cut choice, sometimes it is just surviving.

Describing someone dying over a motorbike as awesome is horrible, laughing out loud because of it makes you none better than the guy who stole the bike. It is a tragic event, I do not judge the police agent for what he did, as the robber was armed, but it is hardly heroic or awesome.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Dezilagel on October 16, 2013, 08:20:17 pm
@Antiblitz and 'others'

So you don't think it's tragic that someone died over a "fucking bike", but are rather grateful for this opportunity to rid the world of "scum of the earth"?

I'm not saying the cop did anything directly wrong in that particular situation (as said, he did his job), but to say 'yay, THIS is how it should be!', when clearly the best case scenario would have been that noone had to die for the guy to keep his bike just seems a bit morally deprived to me.

And what exactly do you mean by "scum of the earth"?

Is there a 'scum line' which if you cross it you should be hunted down and killed asap, and if so, who decides that line and based on what?

Defection from "the norm of society"?

As you are very eager to point out - yes I am a 'foreigner' (and so are ~95% of people) and I live in a society different from yours, with a different view on things. I disagree heavily with both my 'own' society and other ones in a multitude of questions. (Swedish laws concerning rape and domestic abuse, Russian law on homosexuality and the always popular American surveillance and gun laws to name a few recent and popular examples) Which authority, which "social norm" am I to follow then not to be branded "scum of the earth"?

Just as people are not born criminals, people are also not born not criminals. It's a choice, and that choice should be obvious (becoming a criminal isn't something done without reason) but also meaningful and rewarding. If a criminal life has no value, and no chance to redeem itself then life in itself is without value, and the criminals´ next choice becomes obvious (face society and face alienation, a long sentence, death or worse; or continue on the criminal path).

In a perfect society there would be no thieves because there would be no reason to steal from anyone. But that reason should not be expected massive disproportionate retribution from authority (a lá dictatorships), but rather common respect and understanding ALL people in between.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Kafein on October 16, 2013, 08:28:22 pm
By the way I'm taking a business trip to Rio de Janeiro early november, wish me luck.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Bjord on October 16, 2013, 08:29:21 pm
Dezilagel: Uh... Are you seriously going with the utopic approach? There is no PERFECT society, there will never be one. If it was perfect, there would be no striving for improvements. The only purpose criminals serve is as a goal for society to better itself.

I am by far not educated in this and don't claim to be above criticism, but you are seriously speaking out of your ass. So much bullshit in one post is seldomly seen.

Just as people are not born criminals, people are also not born not criminals.

What an eloquent way of the use of English. My perspective on life has been changed.

By the way I'm taking a business trip to Rio de Janeiro early november, wish me luck.

City of God. :wink:
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Tibe on October 16, 2013, 08:30:11 pm
(click to show/hide)

What is this? Karmaclass? The words "you are wrong" are sufficent enough. The you are a bad person for laughing thing is not required. Leave those for fishing Facebook likes.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Xant on October 16, 2013, 08:31:44 pm

I am by far not educated in this and don't claim to be above criticism, but you are seriously speaking out of your ass. So much bullshit in one post is seldomly seen.
You did this with Leshma as well. Saying that isn't enough, you'll have to actually point the bullshit out and provide counter-arguments.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: [ptx] on October 16, 2013, 08:33:21 pm
Yeah, i just wanted to comment that viewing any death as awesome is just plain immoral.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Kafein on October 16, 2013, 08:36:26 pm
You did this with Leshma as well. Saying that isn't enough, you'll have to actually point the bullshit out and provide counter-arguments.

Xant-style
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Bjord on October 16, 2013, 08:38:32 pm
While Teeth may have a point in that people living in slums in general are typically presented with a prospect on life that often leans to a life of crime, it is still not morally right to murder or rob. As I said, they are not the root of evil. However, just because crime is a trend where you live, does not make it more morally acceptable.

It is ultimately the Brazilian government who is to be blamed for this incident, but the people who are victims of crime can not afford to wait for reforma that take decades to go through with. The only choice until then is to act arbitrarily, and justly.

You did this with Leshma as well. Saying that isn't enough, you'll have to actually point the bullshit out and provide counter-arguments.

I am fuckin too lazy for that, I'm just hoping others will agree and if not, well too bad. Not a single fuck was given.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Kafein on October 16, 2013, 08:40:36 pm
The only choice until then is to act arbitrarily, and justly.

I have a hard time trying to picture someone writing this seriously.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: zagibu on October 16, 2013, 08:41:16 pm
Brazil has long stopped being a deadbeat country. Brazil is rich, but also one of most economically unequal countries in the world. Perhaps being raised in cabin of 10 square meters next to a 3 meter high wall which the goverment built to keep your dirty favela grown ass from interfering with the lives of people that have more money than they know how to spend, changes your morals a little when it comes to property. You having barely any social mobility, looking at a death in your early fifties, living a 100 meters from people whose offspring will get to go to a good school and live a long and affluent life.

Displayed here are classic western morals, where a life of affluence and equal economical opportunities make us view criminals as failures who chose a life of crime because they wanted to take the easy way. Obviously they deserve to die. Well guess what, in a large part of the world dealing with criminals or becoming a criminal is fairly inescapable or definitions of what is fair or just might change a little. The moral superiority of cops and officials compared to criminals becomes a little less clear when you have to pay both to be able to make a living. No longer abiding a law system that is thoroughly corrupt and enables the rich to get richer while keeping you to live and die in the gutter is a choice many of us would probably make when in similar circumstances. Criminality is not always a clear cut choice, sometimes it is just surviving.

Describing someone dying over a motorbike as awesome is horrible, laughing out loud because of it makes you none better than the guy who stole the bike. It is a tragic event, I do not judge the police agent for what he did, as the robber was armed, but it is hardly heroic or awesome.

Now don't make complicated what's easy. A burger's a burger and a scumbag's a scumbag. Kill them all and let god sort them out.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Xant on October 16, 2013, 08:43:22 pm
I am fuckin too lazy for that, I'm just hoping others will agree and if not, well too bad. Not a single fuck was given.

No, it's clearly not because of laziness. You're happy enough to write long posts in this thread. I think the real reason is that you figured out you'd have a hard time showing how what Dezilagel said is bullshit. Which is fine, but the "I would but I'm lazy" excuse doesn't really fly.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Bjord on October 16, 2013, 08:46:03 pm
No, it's clearly not because of laziness. You're happy enough to write long posts in this thread. I think the real reason is that you figured out you'd have a hard time showing how what Dezilagel said is bullshit. Which is fine, but the "I would but I'm lazy" excuse doesn't really fly.

Writing is one thing, having to neatly sort his paragraphs into good looking quotes and refuting them is too much of a hassle. I'd prefer if people just saw it for what it was. :wink:

You know I'm on my phone right?

Also, proving Leshma wrong isn't difficult. He even does it for you sometimes.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Bjord on October 16, 2013, 08:54:42 pm
I have a hard time trying to picture someone writing this seriously.

Well, in these situations where someone's life was threatened, you shouldn't be hesitant, that's what I'm saying.

Of course, if he had lived, he would be deserving a legal trial. Such is the law, after all.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Xant on October 16, 2013, 09:06:47 pm
Writing is one thing, having to neatly sort his paragraphs into good looking quotes and refuting them is too much of a hassle. I'd prefer if people just saw it for what it was. :wink:

You know I'm on my phone right?

Also, proving Leshma wrong isn't difficult. He even does it for you sometimes.
Why would you need "neat paragraphs" and "good looking quotes"?

You being on your phone matters why? You can write, evidently.

Yet you didn't prove Leshma wrong either. But I mean, I could fly to the moon now, it isn't difficult, it's just that I'm lazy and flying there real neat is too much of a hassle.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Bjord on October 16, 2013, 09:14:42 pm
What am I doing, arguing with a hypocrite.

There are indeed times when I actually bother to refute someone's post, but it takes me a good 30 minutes to do that because this shit is so damn slow. And I want my posts to be easy to read, which is why I would strive to have a neat looking post instead of not. Hence, my level of care does not inspire effort this time.

Also, Xant?
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: AntiBlitz on October 16, 2013, 10:10:36 pm
1)  lol im not jumping up and down with joy because he killed him, im more or less patting the man on the back for taking the initiative to control the situation, and in my opinion yes, he was asking to, and was shot.

2)  Scum of the earth, my definition; someone willing to steal, assault, rape, murder, or any other act of violence that would put harm to or deprive citizens of something, whether it be life or property.  In this case the man decided to rob someone for a bike, a fucking bike, not a loaf of bread to feed his starving family, a FUCKING BIKE.  im sorry but i cant see how you can make the view that he was cast into bike robbery because his family is starving in a dirt hovel, he didnt run up to the man screaming "im stealing this for my children" like some sort of Robin hood.

3)  Why shouldnt a law enforcement official be allowed to carry off duty, all of a sudden they go off duty and they have to lock their firearm away in a container and blind themselves to the world?  you do know that they live within the society that they must enforce right, sometimes those people like to confront them while they arent at work, and normally they arent to shake their hand for giving them a ticket, or putting them in jail.

4)  I wouldnt claim him as a hero for shooting someone, but im sure in the eyes of the man who was just robbed at gun point that man is his hero.

5) Yes the norm of society does not steal, assault, murder one another, yes the normal civilized society of any culture on these boards dont do this to one another.  It doesnt matter that your countries society is somehow different, it was a general statement to society of humans as a whole.

6) yes im pointing out that you are a foreigner, because we have done these discussions in other topics, which lasted for 20-30 pages, and the conclusion came down to, European countries dislike firearm usage, and Americans do.  For some reason every time we get in to this debate, its "well he should have yelled at him first", "well he should have fired off 3 warning shots first", "human life is precious, dont kill armed robbers, only maim them by shooting them in the legs and arms", "guns are bad, they kill people", "knives do less damage", " knives dont kill people, guns do", etc etc. 

7) Criminals do not reform, as much as we strive for this Utopia bullshit that you perceive as reformation in prison, it doesnt work, why do they not work you ask?  because its the same shit heads that constantly come back to the fucking places time and time again, they never learn, they dont care to learn.  They sit in a fucking prison for 6 years and come out worse then they were, and then 4 months later bam, back in prison again.  The only person that a imprisonment sentence works on are citizens who abide the laws of, things like violent crimes and instead are sentenced for things like stealing/shoplifting, those people are in such fear of their lives that they would not dare do it again.  However the scum of the earth as i put it before dont care, they would risk life for the reward.  So in the end i guess you can claim its the prison systems fault for its failure, but is it really? or is it that the person doesnt care to change even when given the opportunity?
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: zagibu on October 16, 2013, 10:20:42 pm
This scum of the earth, is it scum, because it steals, rapes, etc., or does it steal, rape, etc. because it's scum?
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Sir_Hans on October 16, 2013, 10:43:09 pm
Made this post and went to bed...

Woke up to 4 pages  :shock:

I can't believe how many hippies want to argue the value of this scums life. Like he was forced into a life of bike stealing.

It's not like the cop walked into a slum and found a criminal and shot him to death for little reason.
Cop witnessed an armed vehicle theft in progress, weighted his options and solved a crime. The fact that is completely took one armed criminal who points a firearm in peoples faces to take their vehicle off the face of the planet is the tastiest icing on cake I've ever had.

Again, If more criminals faced this kind of justice, people would think twice before committing serious crimes. I would very merrily trade countless criminal lives like this one for a reduction in major crimes... and I will cheer and applaud every time someone catches it on their helmet cam.  :mrgreen:

Wish cops in California would get the green light to start doing this, I would have more faith in our justice system.

Is there a 'scum line' which if you cross it you should be hunted down and killed asap, and if so, who decides that line and based on what?

It should work like this: If you use violent/deadly force to commit crimes such as theft, you should be prepared or expect to be met with equal violent/deadly force.
(without the sad internet hippies crying about the value of said criminals life.)

Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on October 16, 2013, 11:00:47 pm
Ideallya cop killing a thief isn't all that great, it's still greater than letting a thief escape with the property of someone else though, should've preferably aimed for the leg or something, but eh. If law enforcement valued the lives of thieves in the process of stealing something less than what is being stolen anyone could steal anything and as long as no one attempted murder they'd never see justice unless they willingly turned themselves in, you can say warning shot first or whatever, but really, would just give the guy the opportunity to escape on the vehicle he was stealing in any case, or he could've used his gun, and we would all love that, wouldn't we? The guy isn't a hero, he certainly isn't a criminal either, he's just a guy doing his job.

Teeth, do you have any reason to believe the hijacked is much richer than the hijacker (and his buddy)? If he's so poor that stealing would seriously help his family, would the hijacked guy who is probably about as poor as the hijacker not have just as much need for the bike? Is it fair to let him be robbed and seeing as that bike totally would've feed families, let the robbed guys children starve? If anything your statement supports shooting the hijacker. This statement might come from living amongst Balkanites, but is looks seriously unlikely that the guy was trying to feed his family, he was more likely than not just another dumb admittedly low income kid who wanted a bike, if he wanted food for his fucking family, how is it justifiable robbing people for their bikes when you still got a perfectly good gun and bike to sell?
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Vodner on October 16, 2013, 11:02:20 pm
Quote
Is there a 'scum line' which if you cross it you should be hunted down and killed asap, and if so, who decides that line and based on what?
Lethal action should be taken if it is necessary to prevent the criminal from hurting somebody, to prevent the criminal from damaging private property (i.e. in the case of vandals), or to prevent the criminal from stealing private property.

If it's possible to get the guy to surrender without risking damage to life or property, then that should be done. If this is not possible, then frankly the life of the criminal should be the absolute last priority.

Take, for example, the Vancouver riots. The instant people started lighting cars on fire and looting stores, the police should have started shooting.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Christo on October 16, 2013, 11:10:31 pm
Take, for example, the Vancouver riots. The instant people started lighting cars on fire and looting stores, the police should have started shooting.

Like that never ends up with the riot police going overboard and shooting, lynching innocent people
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Bjord on October 16, 2013, 11:17:14 pm
Riots are a completely, completely different matter.

Look at the events of Bloody Sunday. One small group of IRA members openly displayed hostility to the British and this resulted in innocent protesters getting killed.

Even in riots, there are always some small group of people who incite aggressive behaviour, and usually, people who partake in riots are not crooks and thugs, but ordinary people driven to desperation by social issues. Non-lethal force, sure, even highly violent non-lethal force is okay too, but killing people in riots is pouring fuel on the fire.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Leshma on October 16, 2013, 11:19:31 pm
Quote
Again, If more criminals faced this kind of justice, people would think twice before committing serious crimes.

No, they would not. Crime is prevalent in underdeveloped countries and has little to do with terror you put upon your citizens. Actually, the more terror there is, means people will commit more crime.

There's a reason why folks from nice european countries where crime rates are low are having what you call "a hippie" opinion.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Kafein on October 16, 2013, 11:58:59 pm
Lethal action should be taken if it is necessary to prevent the criminal from hurting somebody, to prevent the criminal from damaging private property (i.e. in the case of vandals), or to prevent the criminal from stealing private property.

If it's possible to get the guy to surrender without risking damage to life or property, then that should be done. If this is not possible, then frankly the life of the criminal should be the absolute last priority.

Lethal action is to be taken when it's the last recourse or as defense. I think the policeman should have shouted something like "drop your gun" before shooting, even if it's just allowing the thief to do so for a fraction of a second, and certainly not shoot twice if the first bullet hit. I can understand the cop's action in the heat of the moment but if he had thought this through that's what he should have done.

Take, for example, the Vancouver riots. The instant people started lighting cars on fire and looting stores, the police should have started shooting.

So how's this trip to Tiananmen going ? "people" is much too vague, as only those actually lighting cars, pillaging and doing damage should be arrested. The best riot polices in the world are capable of isolating violent groups among peaceful protesters so I don't see why it is necessary to blindly go for global violent suppression.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Bjord on October 16, 2013, 11:59:57 pm
They would think twice if crime did not pay off. Crime thrives hand in hand with poverty, yes, but not only "rich" people are affected by crime. I'm talking about gangs and other types of criminal culture that subjugates the majority of people in slums. Even in slums, you will find that they have their own economy; price of food and living space is affordable through work. It is not impossible to lead a good life, a happy life if you will. There are just some people who, through interactions with their surroundings, are shaped into criminals. Mostly kids, orphans or neglected kids who are kicked out into the night to beg money for their parents. This is a societal issue, but that does not make a criminal exempt from moral judgment. Quite the opposite.
I do feel sorrow for these kids, but when you have lost your touch with humanity so as to be able to rape, murder and rob without remorse, you are too far gone. Just like a gangrenous limb, it is necessary to cut it off before it spreads too far.

The more poverty stricken or the more contrasted the rift is between rich and poor in a country, the more extreme the crime fighting is. As is the case in the video in the OP. And even the crime fighters are sometimes criminals themselves, bribing is not uncommon in Kenya at all, or as they call it "finger oiling". The places with the most poverty rates are fucked up, no doubt.

I visited two slums when I was in Kenya this year, these two were Kibera and Korogocho, Korogocho being the more habitable of the two. In Korogocho, you had breakfast diners, furniture shops, motorbike repair shops, internet cafés, grocery stores where you could pay with mobile credit etc etc. The community of people in slums learn to support each other. It's far from perfect and their life quality is abysmal, but happiness is achievable.
In Kibera, however, it was a step up on the poverty scale. When I arrived to Kibera, almost within 5 minutes I see our guide chasing off some inebreated guys who were eyeing our cameras with a nasty look.

So I would like to claim that I have stood face to face with this type of poverty and it's a nasty thing, but far from all poor people are driven to crime. If anything, they are more inclined to hate crime than us cozy westerners in our social welfare bubbles. We just have more channels to express ourselves, so it must seem like we are more vocal. I have some Kenyan friends on FB who have happened to link a crime related news article or two, and the animosity in the comments toward criminals is quite scary.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: zagibu on October 17, 2013, 12:02:22 am
No, they would not. Crime is prevalent in underdeveloped countries and has little to do with terror you put upon your citizens. Actually, the more terror there is, means people will commit more crime.

There's a reason why folks from nice european countries where crime rates are low are having what you call "a hippie" opinion.

You don't understand. Crime is prevalent in underdeveloped countries, because they have a higher scumbag density. Naturally, this should mean that police over there should shoot more criminals as well, which DOES happen to some degree, but not enough to keep their scumbags busy so they can't evade other countries. So what you learned today is that police should shoot and kill more often, it would improve this world. Even better would be if not only police could shoot scumbags, but all non-scumbags could. This would lead to an extinction of scumbags, which would be cool and everyone could have more burgers.

So how's this trip to Tiananmen going ? "people" is much too vague, as only those actually lighting cars, pillaging and doing damage should be arrested. The best riot polices in the world are capable of isolating violent groups among peaceful protesters so I don't see why it is necessary to blindly go for global violent suppression.

All protesters are scumbags. They tolerate their co-scumbags to light cars and pillage, which means they forfeit their lives and the lives of all their relatives. And the lives of their livestock as well.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: AntiBlitz on October 17, 2013, 12:10:15 am
No, they would not. Crime is prevalent in underdeveloped countries and has little to do with terror you put upon your citizens. Actually, the more terror there is, means people will commit more crime.

There's a reason why folks from nice european countries where crime rates are low are having what you call "a hippie" opinion.
Please provide evidence of such claims, because that doesnt make sense.  Telling people you will cut their hands off if caught stealing means more people will steal because they're poor?  makes sense

your opinion is flawed because your comparing a country the size of one of our 50 states to yours, you cant make the comparison, so knock it off while your ahead.  Like i said we have made these discussions before, they always end the same.  Our views here, yours over there, like way the fuck over there.

Zagibu keep it up man, im getting quite a chuckle out of ur posts lol.  Like that cartoon animator in the paper making the funny pictures of events.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Bjord on October 17, 2013, 12:12:23 am
Your =/= You're
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Laufknoten on October 17, 2013, 12:17:58 am
It should work like this: If you use violent/deadly force to commit crimes such as theft, you should be prepared or expect to be met with equal violent/deadly force.
(without the sad internet hippies crying about the value of said criminals life.)
If the robber shot and killed the biker noone would care about all of this. Just another murder with robbery in Brazil.
But when a cop actually does his job all the libmy old friends go: "oh my god, that poor young valuable member of society, shot down by a fat ugly evil cop!", "he was just buying skittles and iced tea!"...oh wait...
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Radament on October 17, 2013, 12:28:24 am
saw that on liveleak , the robber's gun seems a toy-gun for me but he deserved to be shot.
the bike's owner is a douche , he was like a scared girl while he was robbed and after robber was downed , he acted like a tough guy insulting him.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Vodner on October 17, 2013, 12:39:39 am
Lethal action is to be taken when it's the last recourse or as defense. I think the policeman should have shouted something like "drop your gun" before shooting, even if it's just allowing the thief to do so for a fraction of a second, and certainly not shoot twice if the first bullet hit. I can understand the cop's action in the heat of the moment but if he had thought this through that's what he should have done.
In the case of defending property, it often is the last available recourse, before expensive (or irreparable) damage is done. At any rate, in this case both property and lives were at stake, so I feel it would have been far too risky to give the thief a chance to either raise his weapon, or attempt to drive off.

e: Scratch that, he actually pointed his weapon at the officer. There's no debate at that point - he needs to be shot.

Quote
So how's this trip to Tiananmen going ? "people" is much too vague, as only those actually lighting cars, pillaging and doing damage should be arrested. The best riot polices in the world are capable of isolating violent groups among peaceful protesters so I don't see why it is necessary to blindly go for global violent suppression.
I was referring to the individuals visibly causing damage. In the case of the Vancouver riots, most people in the mob weren't actually doing anything damaging. You don't even need multiple people shooting - a single guy can fire a shot or two into one of the vandals, which I imagine would be enough to (at least temporarily) dissuade any nearby, unwounded vandals.

Care would have to be given to make sure that the bulk of the mob is distant enough to prevent people from panicking and trampling one-another, and to ensure that the shooter is suitably trained such that innocents won't eat stray bullets or ricochets. If the latter isn't possible, then less-lethal weapons could be used (although, in the case of teargas, I would imagine the chance of causing a stampede would be even greater than with bullets).

Quote
The best riot polices in the world are capable of isolating violent groups among peaceful protesters so I don't see why it is necessary to blindly go for global violent suppression.
The police were unable to prevent a great deal of property damage during the riots, so I assume they felt that it would be far too risky to attempt to move in and arrest vandals. Even with the limited measures they took, there were still nine officers injured.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Leshma on October 17, 2013, 12:50:59 am
shot down by a fat ugly evil cop!"

Cops are no better than criminals in most cases. Same mentality, just wears a badge.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Xant on October 17, 2013, 01:02:04 am
They would think twice if crime did not pay off. Crime thrives hand in hand with poverty, yes, but not only "rich" people are affected by crime. I'm talking about gangs and other types of criminal culture that subjugates the majority of people in slums. Even in slums, you will find that they have their own economy; price of food and living space is affordable through work. It is not impossible to lead a good life, a happy life if you will. There are just some people who, through interactions with their surroundings, are shaped into criminals. Mostly kids, orphans or neglected kids who are kicked out into the night to beg money for their parents. This is a societal issue, but that does not make a criminal exempt from moral judgment. Quite the opposite.
I do feel sorrow for these kids, but when you have lost your touch with humanity so as to be able to rape, murder and rob without remorse, you are too far gone. Just like a gangrenous limb, it is necessary to cut it off before it spreads too far.

The more poverty stricken or the more contrasted the rift is between rich and poor in a country, the more extreme the crime fighting is. As is the case in the video in the OP. And even the crime fighters are sometimes criminals themselves, bribing is not uncommon in Kenya at all, or as they call it "finger oiling". The places with the most poverty rates are fucked up, no doubt.

I visited two slums when I was in Kenya this year, these two were Kibera and Korogocho, Korogocho being the more habitable of the two. In Korogocho, you had breakfast diners, furniture shops, motorbike repair shops, internet cafés, grocery stores where you could pay with mobile credit etc etc. The community of people in slums learn to support each other. It's far from perfect and their life quality is abysmal, but happiness is achievable.
In Kibera, however, it was a step up on the poverty scale. When I arrived to Kibera, almost within 5 minutes I see our guide chasing off some inebreated guys who were eyeing our cameras with a nasty look.

So I would like to claim that I have stood face to face with this type of poverty and it's a nasty thing, but far from all poor people are driven to crime. If anything, they are more inclined to hate crime than us cozy westerners in our social welfare bubbles. We just have more channels to express ourselves, so it must seem like we are more vocal. I have some Kenyan friends on FB who have happened to link a crime related news article or two, and the animosity in the comments toward criminals is quite scary.

Man, that's obvious bullshit. You're talking out of your ass. But I'm too lazy to point out all of this obviousness, brb going to type a long post after saying I'm too lazy to type.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Sniger on October 17, 2013, 01:02:57 am
if you have a gun or a toy that looks like a gun and you run around with it in public in certain contries, you are utterly mindless and deserve to be shot.

but ye ill give you that range is queer.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Leshma on October 17, 2013, 01:04:00 am
Yes, in certain countries. That's why people try to leave those countries as hard as possible.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Bjord on October 17, 2013, 01:05:50 am
Man, that's obvious bullshit. You're talking out of your ass. But I'm too lazy to point out all of this obviousness, brb going to type a long post after saying I'm too lazy to type.

Have fun.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Sniger on October 17, 2013, 01:06:54 am
summa sumarum: cop did gj. without him, that robber would go on a spree either killing or robbing. if he DID use a toy gun... dang... tard. as if cops can see from distance what is toy and what isnt toy.

cop did gj. end of story.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: zagibu on October 17, 2013, 01:09:48 am
summa sumarum: cop did gj. without him, that robber would go on a spree either killing or robbing. if he DID use a toy gun... dang... tard. as if cops can see from distance what is toy and what isnt toy.

cop did gj. end of story.

Yeah, because most robbers go on a spree. It's a solid way to make sure you can enjoy what you just robbed for as long as possible.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Xant on October 17, 2013, 01:12:28 am
summa sumarum: cop did gj. without him, that robber would go on a spree either killing or robbing. if he DID use a toy gun... dang... tard. as if cops can see from distance what is toy and what isnt toy.

cop did gj. end of story.
Using a toy gun makes him a retard because cops can't see from a distance it isn't a real gun?

Except he wasn't waving a gun around for the benefit of the cops, and didn't intend to rob any cops.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Bjord on October 17, 2013, 01:16:13 am
Using a toy gun makes him a retard because cops can't see from a distance it isn't a real gun?

Except he wasn't waving a gun around for the benefit of the cops, and didn't intend to rob any cops.

He's a retard because you don't flaunt an object around that resembles a lethal weapon in the vicinity of an armed policeman.

For example, I had this lovely jet lighter, lady shaped lower piece and a pistol head on the top, but the fuckers at Irish customs took it from me because it resembled a gun.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Sniger on October 17, 2013, 01:23:30 am
if you gonna rob, do it properly and dont rob useless MCs and what not... WITH A TOY GUN SEEMINLY?! nab

rob a fucking bank or gold reserve. raid a drug kartel. something! geez
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Sniger on October 17, 2013, 01:25:08 am
He's a retard because you don't flaunt an object around that resembles a lethal weapon in the vicinity of an armed policeman.

For example, I had this lovely jet lighter, lady shaped lower piece and a pistol head on the top, but the fuckers at Irish customs took it from me because it resembled a gun.

and in a country where 70% (exaggeration) of the public are armed lol
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Xant on October 17, 2013, 01:27:31 am
He's a retard because you don't flaunt an object around that resembles a lethal weapon in the vicinity of an armed policeman.

For example, I had this lovely jet lighter, lady shaped lower piece and a pistol head on the top, but the fuckers at Irish customs took it from me because it resembled a gun.
Yes you do, if you don't want to get arrested and that's your only chance of bluffing your way out of it.


and in a country where 70% (exaggeration) of the public are armed lol
"..extremely severe restrictions were made by the federal government since 2002 making it virtually impossible to obtain a carry permit.."

Really?
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Bjord on October 17, 2013, 01:40:43 am
Note: Flaunt is not the same as threaten. If you're in a position to threaten a police officer, then you already had the advantage. A trained lawman would blast you to bits if you made the slightest intent of pointing a gun or an object resembling a gun in his direction while his finger is on the trigger. You'd be better off taking a hostage if you had the chance, then they would at least hesitate shooting you to death and you'd have more leverage.

However, if the robber in the video was using a toy gun expecting to be given a "chance" to escape, he'd still be dead. That's why it would be even more stupid to not carry a real piece over a toy gun.

Although in Sweden, you'd probably want to use a toy gun, Swedish lawmen are a lot more lenient.

Going even farther than Sweden in leniency, in Ireland, the only place where the police, or "garda", are armed is in Limerick. Otherwise it's only batons and other non-lethal weapons. Pretty good to know if you wanna make a career in crime in Ireland. :wink:
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Xant on October 17, 2013, 01:46:40 am
No shit you'd want a real gun instead of a fake one, the point being is that if he had a fake one (unlikely) then he only carried it to make hijacking the motorcycle easier. Either way, the robber probably knew the risks.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Rumblood on October 17, 2013, 01:54:34 am
I also find it funny that a policeman who is off duty, is allowed to wear his gun.
In this case it wasn't even his duty to interfere.

What the fuck is wrong with you? You one of those people who would stand around and watch a woman get violently raped because "it wasn't even your duty to interfere"? How about you just get off some criminal dick? Fuck those guys.

Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Sniger on October 17, 2013, 01:57:24 am
even a toy gun can be dangerous

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Butan on October 17, 2013, 02:07:57 am
Yes, in certain countries. That's why people try to leave those countries as hard as possible.

Do you imply that people prefer to live in countries where everyone is carrying a gun and using it on each others for various reasons ? So hardcore  :P



I understood that you meant countries where the law was brutal and inefficient in fending off criminality was not good places to live, but if you're not doing criminal activities or a dangerous activist what would be the problem of living in such countries?
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Leshma on October 17, 2013, 02:19:06 am
Violence breeds violence, not order. In third world countries, policemen are criminals too. My point is that things should be done in certain order or hell will break lose. Killings thief when you're off duty if there's no need for it is not how policemen should intervene. And they know that very well, but in countries like Brazil they don't care. Because in countries like Brazil (or Serbia), policemen serve the "elite" and will do everything to protect them. They don't serve people, they don't follow the law (they are the law and their actions are actions of law no matter what kind of actions those are). That is why you never hear something like this happening in developed countries, because there is law and citizens are aware of it. You also don't hear about amateur level football judges stabbing players in the chest just to be cut to pieces half an hour later by angry mob. That happens in societies where is no law, and rural Brazil is one of those.

In America they fixed this issue by letting everyone be a lawman by himself, as long he's protecting his private property. You know, Wild West and stuff like that. Their legal system is also quite different to what we have here in Europe, there have their own ways so to speak. But not how things work in civilized world :P
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Xant on October 17, 2013, 02:20:22 am
Violence breeds violence, not order.
All order is based on violence.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Leshma on October 17, 2013, 02:31:13 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_order
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Bjord on October 17, 2013, 02:36:51 am
Xant did say all order. A fallacy, Xant? What is the defendant's case?
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Xant on October 17, 2013, 02:49:32 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_order
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_(law)
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Leshma on October 17, 2013, 03:11:45 am
Chicks are throwing pillows at each other when they are feeling playful, we are throwing wiki articles at each other. So nerdy, I love it. My punnany is wet :oops:

Btw. your article does not exist, bro.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Scervo on October 17, 2013, 03:14:06 am
1.) Death is not awesome, regardless of circumstances
2.) A wikipedia link is not even half-decent evidence

Btw. your article does not exist, bro.

add a ) to the end, it got cut off the link for some reason
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Leshma on October 17, 2013, 03:18:55 am
It's poorly written article, like he wrote it himself to prove a point :lol:
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Xant on October 17, 2013, 03:19:59 am
Chicks are throwing pillows at each other when they are feeling playful, we are throwing wiki articles at each other. So nerdy, I love it. My punnany is wet :oops:

Btw. your article does not exist, bro.
I ain't your bro, homie.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Leshma on October 17, 2013, 03:23:16 am
I ain't your bro, homie.


Some crap music as an end to justify these means. Now hug, sistah.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Rumblood on October 17, 2013, 04:25:30 am
Killings thief when you're off duty if there's no need for it is not how policemen should intervene.

Completely disingenuous statement. The fact that he was a thief was an insignificant side story to the far more important fact that he was an armed criminal with a pistol in someone's face threatening to kill them. You think the cop should have warned him, giving him a chance to shoot him instead? Fuck that shit. You don't want to get shot, don't be pointing guns into peoples faces. Its real simple like that.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Swaggart on October 17, 2013, 05:25:27 am
Wait wait wait, it wasn't the cop's duty to interfere (amazing choice of word really, makes it sound as if the violent criminal was being inconvenienced) to stop a crime unfolding in front of him?

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It amazes me how many people have sympathy for violent criminals, Talking about root cause and all this other horse shit. Sure, poverty leads people to crime, but the vast majority of people living in poverty do not turn to crime. This fuckwad made his choice to become a criminal, and now he's worm food. Good riddance.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: zagibu on October 17, 2013, 08:55:44 am
What about the bike? Maybe it wanted to be robbed.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Xant on October 17, 2013, 09:04:14 am
What about the robber? Maybe he wanted the bike.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Oberyn on October 17, 2013, 09:04:36 am
A lot of dumb weak bundle of stickss with no knowledge of brasilian street gangs and kids in this thread. The fucking cunt who got shot had quite likely already killed before. If the guy on the bike had hesitated even slightly I have almost no doubt he'd have been shot out of hand. Sure, in a lot of cases, the cops are nothing more than yet another gang, just better funded and equipped, but I still side with them against these fucking hood rats.

The vast majority of poor and disadvantaged people in Brasil struggle daily and work their asses off to achieve a better future for their kids. Poverty is no excuse to become a worthless predatory parasite, no matter how many well-meaning but retardedly naive and sheltered first world ivory tower academics parrot it.

I wonder whether the off-duty officer was just a regular ole' local cop or a PM though (military police, very common in brasilian cities, for very obvious reasons).
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Miwiw on October 17, 2013, 09:31:46 am
What the fuck is wrong with you? You one of those people who would stand around and watch a woman get violently raped because "it wasn't even your duty to interfere"? How about you just get off some criminal dick? Fuck those guys.

There's a difference: Stealing a bike <-> raping a woman

But for you it may not be.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Oberyn on October 17, 2013, 09:37:02 am
Stealing a bike at gunpoint threatening a random innocent person with death. It's not so much the threat to property that makes people side with the cop, it's the threat to the guy's life. It's easy when to frame it as a simple property issue when you weren't the guy with a loaded gun waved in his face.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Kafein on October 17, 2013, 10:21:50 am
Btw. your article does not exist, bro.

The link exists. Saying something followed by a wikipedia link is a good argument. By the way I never open wikipedia links ? Why ? That's why :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Never_open_wikipedia_links


By the way now I think the robber pointed the gun at the cop, at that point he is threatened and can shoot imo.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Molly on October 17, 2013, 10:26:05 am
I'd rather see a criminal arrested than killed.
I'd rather see a police officer shoot at a criminal than a civilian.
I'd rather see a civilian prevent a crime than nobody.
I'd rather see nobody cheering the death of a human being.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: F i n on October 17, 2013, 10:49:57 am
I'd rather see a criminal arrested than killed.
I'd rather see a police officer shoot at a criminal than a civilian.
I'd rather see a civilian prevent a crime than nobody.
I'd rather see nobody cheering the death of a human being.

100%
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Sir_Hans on October 17, 2013, 11:07:41 am
Such black n white statements are always ridiculous to me.

What about when H1tler killed himself. You wouldn't want to see anyone cheering?

Fucking Hippy Naz1s!

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Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: F i n on October 17, 2013, 11:11:49 am
Such black n white statements are always ridiculous to me.

What about when H1tler killed himself. You wouldn't want to see anyone cheering?

Fucking Hippy Naz1s!

Wow. What a smart example.

I'm totally convinced, killing someone is just fine and enjoyable.

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Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: [ptx] on October 17, 2013, 11:15:18 am
It's funny that you mention them, Sir_Hans. Sometimes death is necessary, sure, but cheering death and calling it awesome? That's what the Nazis did and that's why they were so horrible.

It's called being morally bankrupt, people like you should never be in a position of power :/
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: F i n on October 17, 2013, 11:17:59 am
Sometimes death is necessary, sure, [...]

No.

Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Bjord on October 17, 2013, 11:20:13 am
I for one am not cheering so much as admiring the righteousness of the event. I could care less for that person's life after he threatened someone else's.

No.

Yes.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: [ptx] on October 17, 2013, 11:22:52 am
No.
It most certainly is, if it's the only way to prevent someone from doing grievous harm to others.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: F i n on October 17, 2013, 11:25:45 am
It most certainly is, if it's the only way to prevent someone from doing grievous harm to others.


If the theat is immediate and you have to hurt or even kill someone (if inevitable) in self defense - yes.


in any other case its just another murder.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Bjord on October 17, 2013, 11:28:44 am

If the theat is immediate and you have to hurt or even kill someone (if inevitable) in self defense - yes.


in any other case its just another murder.

Sometimes death is necessary[...]
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: [ptx] on October 17, 2013, 11:32:24 am
I have to wonder, how many in this thread would consider this show (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1105711/) "awesome"?

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: F i n on October 17, 2013, 11:34:04 am
Yeah Bjord. U bitchin again? :D

All i wanted to say is that killing someone should always be the very last way out.

And never be one regarded "necessary" meaning one possible solution.

Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: F i n on October 17, 2013, 11:35:21 am
I have to wonder, how many in this thread would consider this show (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1105711/) "awesome"?

(click to show/hide)

Yeah... have seen it once for 1 minute and just turned off the tv... thats just crude.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Sir_Hans on October 17, 2013, 11:36:47 am
It's funny that you mention them, Sir_Hans. Sometimes death is necessary, sure, but cheering death and calling it awesome? That's what the Nazis did and that's why they were so horrible.

It's called being morally bankrupt, people like you should never be in a position of power :/

Naz1's weren't horrible because of mass genocide and torture... they were horrible because they called it awesome?

Here I had it backwards all along, Oh well, now I am learned.  :lol:

Guess I'm as horrible as an auschwitz executioner because I enjoy seeing an armed bike thief get what he deserves.


I have to wonder, how many in this thread would consider this show (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1105711/) "awesome"?

(click to show/hide)

There is a big difference between enjoying an armed bike thief get shot to death on film and making a judge dredd pun out of it, than seeing someone die of random freak occurrences or victim-less risky behavior and making fun of it. But I guess someone of your intellectual caliber can't discern any difference from the two.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: [ptx] on October 17, 2013, 11:37:36 am
Yeah... have seen it once for 1 minute and just turned off the tv... thats just crude.
I saw this on TV some time ago, was disgusted. My flatmates at the time seemed to enjoy it, though. Big surprise, they turned out to be complete scum.

Naz1's weren't horrible because of mass genocide and torture... they were horrible because they called it awesome?

Here I had it backwards all along, Oh well, now I am learned.  :lol:

Guess I'm as horrible as an auschwitz executioner because I enjoy seeing an armed bike thief get what he deserves.
Yes, your morality is on the same level, except you're also a total moron.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Sir_Hans on October 17, 2013, 11:45:12 am
No you're a total moron!  :cry:

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Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: [ptx] on October 17, 2013, 11:50:38 am
Places like Auschwitz became possible due to a sudden and inexplicable boom in morally absent mass murderers in Germany between WW1 and WW2, right?

Or, perhaps, through effective propaganda, groups of people, such as jews and mentally disadvantaged, were painted as "scum"? All it then takes is to find people like you, that ENJOY seeing "scum get what they deserve".

I have little doubt as to what role you would have taken, were you born in Germany after WW1.

 :|
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Bjord on October 17, 2013, 11:52:21 am
Putting criminals in concentration camps?

Good idea!
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Molly on October 17, 2013, 11:55:11 am
Putting criminals in concentration camps?

Good idea!
I have an idea: Let's call those places "prison". -.-
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Sir_Hans on October 17, 2013, 11:56:15 am
Places like Auschwitz became possible due to a sudden and inexplicable boom in morally absent mass murderers in Germany between WW1 and WW2, right?

Or, perhaps, through effective propaganda, groups of people, such as jews and mentally disadvantaged, were painted as "scum"? All it then takes is to find people like you, that ENJOY seeing "scum get what they deserve".

I have little doubt as to what role you would have taken, were you born in Germany after WW1.

 :|

Wrong, most Germans didn't even know about auschwitz until after the worst was done. They didn't need to find people who like seeing armed bike thieves get shot to enable places like auschwitz believe it or not.

Can we go back to calling each other names instead of pretending we're two intellectuals having any form of semi-intelligent conversation now?
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: F i n on October 17, 2013, 11:56:47 am
I enjoy seeing an armed bike thief get what he deserves.

what he deserves? Really?
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Materia on October 17, 2013, 11:58:08 am
I have to wonder, how many in this thread would consider this show (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1105711/) "awesome"?

(click to show/hide)

Thanks for the tip, Im torrenting it now. I will let you know weather I like it or not, after watching first couple parts. I have never heard of it before.

(click to show/hide)


Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Sir_Hans on October 17, 2013, 11:59:56 am
what he deserves? Really?

What... you think he deserves the bike?  :lol:


I'm going to bed now. We can continue this most intelligent of conversations tomorrow dear friends.  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Bjord on October 17, 2013, 12:00:54 pm
I have an idea: Let's call those places "prison". -.-

Swedish prison is like a hotel, though. :wink:

I'm thinking labour camps for murderers, rapists and similar scum.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: F i n on October 17, 2013, 12:02:22 pm
What... you think he deserves the bike?

No. But i think he deserves better than being shot in public.

The cop on the other hand deserves a long time in prison.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Bjord on October 17, 2013, 12:03:33 pm
No. But i think he deserves better than being shot in public.

The cop on the other hand deserves a long time in prison.

LOL.


Yeah, put the cop in prison, he was doing his job! Unforgivable!
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: F i n on October 17, 2013, 12:06:37 pm
LOL.


Yeah, put the cop in prison, he was doing his job! Unforgivable!

So the job of a cop is to kill ppl. ?

God this topic is filled with maniacs.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Christo on October 17, 2013, 12:08:16 pm
what the

i dont even
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Bjord on October 17, 2013, 12:26:59 pm
So the job of a cop is to kill ppl. ?

God this topic is filled with maniacs.

Finuad, go back to making music and stay off these topics. Okay? Okay.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: F i n on October 17, 2013, 12:29:02 pm
Finuad, go back to making music and stay off these topics. Okay? Okay.

no.

U better explain why the punishment for stealing a motobike should be death.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Bjord on October 17, 2013, 12:32:04 pm
Did you watch the video? The robber had a fucking gun, he pointed it in the other guy's face. The cop should have shot both of those fuckers. It's not about the bike at all.

The cop saw the gun and acted. If he had yelled "Freeze!" or something, who's to say he wouldn't just escape, or turn around and shoot the cop etc. It was within protocol, IMO.

One scumbag less, as I said.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Molly on October 17, 2013, 12:36:14 pm
what the

i dont even
If you keep showing up late, I gonna lobby that you get your custom title removed  :?
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Leshma on October 17, 2013, 12:37:29 pm
I'd rather see a civilian prevent a crime than nobody.

If criminal is armed, that's not a smart thing to do. Leave that to professionals. Meow once told me that he would always give aid to the weaker when they are in danger (rapist molesting a woman for example). But he's a trained soldier and I'm not. I would still try to help but I'm sure that wouldn't end well. That's why you should always look for law enforcement before you act on your own.

Cop dressed as civilian in his free time is not exactly what I would call a civilian. He still have all necessary skills to prevent crime, only missing backup (which is very important thing to have when dealing with criminals).

But that's how things work in theory and in proper societies. As I said, rural Brazil isn't example of proper society. Just like northeast Mexico, near the border with America and many other places on earth.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Christo on October 17, 2013, 12:42:27 pm
If you keep showing up late, I gonna lobby that you get your custom title removed  :?

I commented few pages back, yesterday
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: F i n on October 17, 2013, 12:44:39 pm
Did you watch the video? The robber had a fucking gun, he pointed it in the other guy's face. The cop should have shot both of those fuckers. It's not about the bike at all.

The cop saw the gun and acted. If he had yelled "Freeze!" or something, who's to say he wouldn't just escape, or turn around and shoot the cop etc. It was within protocol, IMO.

One scumbag less, as I said.

Did the robber actually shoot? No.

Would a human being have been killed if the cop wouldn't have started shooting? No.

Those robbers were about to take off. So they did obviously not try to just kill anyone. Their main intention was to grab the bike and get the hell out of there - do you know why? Did the cop know why? Me neither.

Maybe they needed money for their families (Brazil aint that rich). Maybe the gun wasn't a real one after all.

So basically the cop had to choose between preventing a bike from being stolen and taking a (young) man's life.

Do you really think his decision was right?

Also, if i'm standing 2 metres away from my target, i dont need 2 body shots to take him out.

What about just shooting his leg, arm?


That was no preventive act - that's the pure cowboy-sherrif-IAMAHEROWITHAGUN attitude.

Cops are there to prevent ppl from being harmed not to murder them.

And if there are two ways to prevent harm (stolen bike, taken life) - is it really that hard to choose the right one?


Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Molly on October 17, 2013, 12:44:56 pm
If criminal is armed, that's not a smart thing to do. Leave that to professionals. Meow once told me that he would always give aid to the weaker when they are in danger (rapist molesting a woman for example). But he's a trained soldier and I'm not. I would still try to help but I'm sure that wouldn't end well. That's why you should always look for law enforcement before you act on your own.

Cop dressed as civilian in his free time is not exactly what I would call a civilian. He still have all necessary skills to prevent crime, only missing backup (which is very important thing to have when dealing with criminals).

But that's how things work in theory and in proper societies. As I said, rural Brazil isn't example of proper society. Just like northeast Mexico, near the border with America and many other places on earth.
Preventing a crime doesn't necessarily mean that you should act in a physical way. Already calling the police with a mobile is helping. Making noise, shouting from a distance, pointing with a finger, telling others on the street, finding others to act together... all those things can be done without putting yourself in harms way and still help a lot, always.
I am in the lucky position to know how to handle myself in a bunch of situations but even I have a line I wouldn't cross. Nobody can nor will blame you for not acting physically in a situation that might be harmful for you. They will blame you for doing nothing every time tho...
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Leshma on October 17, 2013, 12:45:50 pm
Completely disingenuous statement. The fact that he was a thief was an insignificant side story to the far more important fact that he was an armed criminal with a pistol in someone's face threatening to kill them. You think the cop should have warned him, giving him a chance to shoot him instead? Fuck that shit. You don't want to get shot, don't be pointing guns into peoples faces. Its real simple like that.

Of course he should have warned him. Did you watch the video? Robber was on a motorcycle and cop was holding the gun ready to shoot. One warning would do, if he starts motorcycle engine shoot him, if he tries to points a gun at you, again shoot him. But coop shot him from the side without warning. And that's the problem here.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Leshma on October 17, 2013, 12:54:43 pm
A lot of dumb weak bundle of stickss with no knowledge of brasilian street gangs and kids in this thread.

Hey asshole, how about you stop insulting people over the internet?
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Swaggart on October 17, 2013, 12:59:33 pm
Yeah but he's right. Some people have no utter clue about violent crime and pretend its on the same level as stealing bread to feed your family.

It's very easy for people living in white western countries to go oh my this cop should be arrested but you don't live in his reality. South American gangs are utterly brutal and without remorse. Just ask the people of Honduras or El Salvador what they think of the cop's actions.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: F i n on October 17, 2013, 01:14:03 pm
Thats all possible but still - i think many ppl in this topic share the opinion killing someone is actually GOOD.

If you have to kill someone to prevent harm from others that might be even justified - but saying "Good job. You're a hero" or "SHOOT THE CRIMINAL SCUM" is just morbid and not appropriate.

Never forget it's not a good thing - and really NEVER start cheering if someone dies.

I guess thats common sense - even for brasilian streetgangs - which btw. are also humans.

Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Bjord on October 17, 2013, 01:21:40 pm
I give up on this thread.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Prpavi on October 17, 2013, 01:27:12 pm
Yeah but he's right. Some people have no utter clue about violent crime and pretend its on the same level as stealing bread to feed your family.

It's very easy for people living in white western countries to go oh my this cop should be arrested but you don't live in his reality. South American gangs are utterly brutal and without remorse. Just ask the people of Honduras or El Salvador what they think of the cop's actions.

So you think those kids and I mean literally kids chose this life and live it with pride? Watched more than a couple of docs on these subject and there is not even one kid that wouldn't want to come to the states and try to make a better life for themselves.

But guess what, guess on which coutrys streets did MS and 18 start and why and guess who deported shitloads of gangbangers to their native coutries of El Salvador and Honduras and they spread the plague. You got it right the red white and blue.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Butan on October 17, 2013, 01:48:41 pm
I think a veteran in the use of firearms could give you some information on :

- reaction time
- accuracy of a handgun
- average number of shots to properly incapacitate


And all those information would probably go toward :

- aiming & firing can be very fast/almost impossible to notice & prevent, warning is dangerous (especially if you're alone, without jacket and dealing with multiple targets) and give opportunity to the enemy to react
- you cant aim the legs and arms like in a FPS (except the bestest of gunmen or sniper with a sniper rifle in proper position, you aim center of mass = chest/back), firearms have designed optimal range & accuracy
- a non-lethal shot (missing head/heart/other cool small as hell targets) have only shock/knockback effect on impact (from sound, impact and later, pain) and small rounds have only small impact


I let you conclude  :wink:
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: AntiBlitz on October 17, 2013, 02:31:58 pm
I think a veteran in the use of firearms could give you some information on :

- reaction time
- accuracy of a handgun
- average number of shots to properly incapacitate



I let you conclude  :wink:

ya hi, thats me.


Did the robber actually shoot? No.

Would a human being have been killed if the cop wouldn't have started shooting? No.

Those robbers were about to take off. So they did obviously not try to just kill anyone. Their main intention was to grab the bike and get the hell out of there - do you know why? Did the cop know why? Me neither.

Maybe they needed money for their families (Brazil aint that rich). Maybe the gun wasn't a real one after all.

So basically the cop had to choose between preventing a bike from being stolen and taking a (young) man's life.

Do you really think his decision was right?

Also, if i'm standing 2 metres away from my target, i dont need 2 body shots to take him out.

What about just shooting his leg, arm?


That was no preventive act - that's the pure cowboy-sherrif-IAMAHEROWITHAGUN attitude.

Cops are there to prevent ppl from being harmed not to murder them.

And if there are two ways to prevent harm (stolen bike, taken life) - is it really that hard to choose the right one?

lol what, calling it like i see it, this post, and all of your opinions on the matter are quite dumb, you are the reason why cops cant do their jobs properly, having people like you constantly knit pick their actions even though you have no idea of what the fuck you are talking about,  Go back to being a pencil pusher.

1)You are just "what if"ing the whole fucking time, this could go 100 different ways, and you sound stupid.

2) wasnt aware they had to shoot first to be shot at, glad i must risk death before death must occur, makes sense.

3) still wasnt aware you had to give someone a warning who is carrying a loaded gun, who I not only just witnessed stuff a gun in someones face, but then point it at me as i get out of my vehicle.

4) you dont need two body shots to take him out, thats your gripe, he shot him twice lol, im confused?  why is this bad?  two?  hell he is lucky he didnt get less than half the magazine.  But i understand you have no idea of what you are talking about, so ill try and clarify.  Shooting someone in the body does not instantly incapacitate them, they dont just get hit one time and fall over and lay on the ground.  They have to bleed out, this takes time, a person can still function for up to 20mins or more while bleeding out, in that time he could have shot the cop, rode the bike to the local burger king, and then went to the hospital.

5)Why does everyone think they should shoot people in the leg?  doesnt make any fucking sense, you have a HUGE vein in your leg called your femoral, if this is struck you almost near always bleed out and die, not to mention you are shattering their femur, or tib/fib, probably making them never walk again, sounds real humane there.  But thats just a side note to that fact that he was carrying and pointing a gun at everyone, and the officer had to quickly take control and stop the threat from harming someone, whether the cop came at the beginning or the end of the crime doesnt matter, he came, and stopped it, with force.

6)  He prevented further harm to the civilian populous by not allowing this person to go rob someone else, he was holding a guun

7)dont try and bullshit us all with the starving family crap, if this was the case, then why didnt dickbag scum of the earth go rob a food store?  he didnt, so get the fuck out.  He was stealing bread loafs, he was stealing bikes.

8)I refuse to give someone time to think about shooting me, he was holding a gun, and im not going to allow him to surprise me with it, when i just did him.  Action is quicker than reaction buddy, and im not risking my ass for him to take mine.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Prpavi on October 17, 2013, 02:38:06 pm
Yeeehaw my friend yeehaw...
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Sniger on October 17, 2013, 03:22:34 pm
A lot of dumb weak bundle of stickss with no knowledge of brasilian street gangs and kids in this thread. The fucking cunt who got shot had quite likely already killed before. If the guy on the bike had hesitated even slightly I have almost no doubt he'd have been shot out of hand. Sure, in a lot of cases, the cops are nothing more than yet another gang, just better funded and equipped, but I still side with them against these fucking hood rats.

The vast majority of poor and disadvantaged people in Brasil struggle daily and work their asses off to achieve a better future for their kids. Poverty is no excuse to become a worthless predatory parasite, no matter how many well-meaning but retardedly naive and sheltered first world ivory tower academics parrot it.

I wonder whether the off-duty officer was just a regular ole' local cop or a PM though (military police, very common in brasilian cities, for very obvious reasons).

fucking word.

i read page after page and wtf havent ppl realized that this is indeed brasil and not US or canada??? then, phew, i reached your post and i could relax again :p


oh and btw, if any of you read the bible, try look up Matthew 26:52: “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Vodner on October 17, 2013, 04:23:01 pm
Quote
Did the robber actually shoot? No.

Would a human being have been killed if the cop wouldn't have started shooting? No.

Those robbers were about to take off. So they did obviously not try to just kill anyone. Their main intention was to grab the bike and get the hell out of there - do you know why? Did the cop know why? Me neither.
It doesn't much matter if he shot - he pointed his weapon at the officer. As a result, he absolutely needed to die.

Even if he hadn't pointed his weapon at the officer (or, frankly, even if he was unarmed), the shooting would still have been justifiable to prevent the theft of the motorcycle.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Oberyn on October 17, 2013, 07:43:26 pm
Hey asshole, how about you stop insulting people over the internet?

Ironic, and no, go fuck yourself. No worries though, let me know if you ever stop by Paris, I'll happily insult you to your (undoubtedly repulsive) face.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Leshma on October 17, 2013, 07:45:51 pm
i read page after page and wtf havent ppl realized that this is indeed brasil and not US or canada??? then, phew, i reached your post and i could relax again :p

There's a ton of crime in US a well, they have gangs just as brutal as those guys in Brazil. But I'm fairly sure there are no such gangs where you live.

Problem isn't that Bralizian kiddo got shot and died, that can't be helped anymore and it will happen again. Real issue is there are some people in this thread who believe that this is how police should deal with thieves in nice, developed countries. And they like to call everyone who thinks differently a commie, hippie, bundle of sticks etc. And I have to see that someone called them right winged freaks or chocolate chip cookies (until now).
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Oberyn on October 17, 2013, 07:55:14 pm
There's a difference between simple thievery and armed robbery. People calling the one who got shot a "thief" are arguing in bad faith or just plain ignorance.
And not a fan of the bible, but I agree with the general sentiment of that quote. As soon as you start playing desperados and threatening innocent people's lives, your life is forfeit. The kid knew that. He doesn't live in a permissive first world country where violent criminals are "rehabilitated" (lol) after serving ridiculously small sentences (Anyone familiar with recidivism stats in most first world countries knows what I'm talking about). He lives in a culture of eye for an eye retribution.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Oberyn on October 17, 2013, 08:13:44 pm
It doesn't much matter if he shot - he pointed his weapon at the officer. As a result, he absolutely needed to die.

Even if he hadn't pointed his weapon at the officer (or, frankly, even if he was unarmed), the shooting would still have been justifiable to prevent the theft of the motorcycle.

That's where I disagree. A cop killing someone over a theft is frankly abuse of power from my perspective. In the heat of the moment I could see a civilian licensed to carry shooting an unarmed thief as excuseable, but not a cop, who should know better. He obviously saw it was an armed robbery and intervened appropriately. If the kid hadn't had a weapon it would not have been justified imo.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: zagibu on October 17, 2013, 08:20:12 pm
The cop should just have shot the gangster's gun out of his hand, like Lucky Luke always does.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Kafein on October 17, 2013, 08:21:25 pm
Police rounds gunshot wounds are far from being always lethal with our modern medicine. But I don't get why the cop fired two shots instead of one.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: zagibu on October 17, 2013, 08:30:23 pm
In military guard service, we learned to always fire two shots, because full metal jacket bullets can pass through a body without doing a lot of harm, and if you hit twice, chances are twice as high that the shot actually did some damage.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: F i n on October 17, 2013, 08:35:03 pm
As soon as you start playing desperados and threatening innocent people's lives, your life is forfeit.

I don't believe in god nor do i believe in what the bible says. Tho i've read it. And i don't think that quote is about "don't draw your sword or you're gonna die" - this quote is about that every act of violence will create more violence.

Cus even if you draw the sword on someone who drew it on you, YOU ARE DRAWING THE DAMN THING TOO.

It's a never-ending circle of violence, started by violence - ending in violence.

It's about NOT drawing the sword - instead of killing everyone who draws it.




But keep on thinking what you want to think, blockheads. I think the world would be a better place without those who fight violence with violence.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Utrakil on October 17, 2013, 08:35:17 pm
The robber started the game. So he set up the rules. By pointing the gun at someones face to get his belongings he states that he values the bike over a live.
The cop plays along these rules and values the robbers live less than the stolen bike and consequenly shoots.
As much as I dislike guns I have to say that this was a fair action.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Oberyn on October 17, 2013, 08:47:43 pm
I don't believe in god nor do i believe in what the bible says. Tho i've read it. And i don't think that quote is about "don't draw your sword or you're gonna die" - this quote is about that every act of violence will create more violence.

Cus even if you draw the sword on someone who drew it on you, YOU ARE DRAWING THE DAMN THING TOO.

It's a never-ending circle of violence, started by violence - ending in violence.

It's about NOT drawing the sword - instead of killing everyone who draws it.




But keep on thinking what you want to think, blockheads. I think the world would be a better place without those who fight violence with violence.

Ugh, during the vast majority of human history those who wouldn't fight violence with violence just didn't survive, or were absorbed/conquered/enslaved by violence. History didn't start during the Cold War. Humans didn't become this way out of random chance. I am loathe to make appeals to nature, but I will anyways. It's because it was an addaptive trait until very, very recently. On the scope of evolutionary change there is so little biological difference between humans now and humans tens of thousands of years ago that it is insignificant, much less a measly couple of hundreds of years. For a lot of the world that wasn't and still isn't covered by MADD nuclear umbrellas, it is still a way of life.
I know a lot of people have an inordinate faith in the power of sociological manipulation, but the truth is civilization and all it's attendant traits (such as the high minded morals you display) are nothing more than thin veneer. When it comes down to it everyone has the potential to turn into a monster given the "right" circumstances. There is a saying I like that illustrutes this, that "civilization is two meals and twenty-four hours away from barbarism".
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Paul on October 17, 2013, 09:00:33 pm
Police rounds gunshot wounds are far from being always lethal with our modern medicine. But I don't get why the cop fired two shots instead of one.

He fired two because the other guy had a gun and he couldn't know if it was a real one or not. I'm pretty sure multiple shots is the common drill to be certain that the other guy is neutralized. When using a handgun round you just can't be certain with a single shot, especially if the target is on drugs.

Armed robbery with a firearm gets you killed. When you decide to use a gun you have to expect to get shot dead by the police. If you want a leg shot use a knife or a club. You are fucked either way in the US though cause they cannot into proportionality.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Oberyn on October 17, 2013, 09:04:58 pm
I know in some US jurisdictions (the territory is so vast and varried when it comes to law and police officers, even within same state lines, that you can't really make any big generalizations) they would have pumped this guy with at least a full clip.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Miwiw on October 17, 2013, 09:25:00 pm
The robber started the game. So he set up the rules. By pointing the gun at someones face to get his belongings he states that he values the bike over a live.
The cop plays along these rules and values the robbers live less than the stolen bike and consequenly shoots.
As much as I dislike guns I have to say that this was a fair action.

If the cop wasn't about to interfere, the robber wouldnt have pointed his gun at him so he wouldn't have to shot and kill him. Why not just call the police in that moment and get that guy arrested later. That's the way to go instead of shooting someone on the street. Oh well, 3rd world obviously.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Sir_Hans on October 17, 2013, 09:31:23 pm
If the cop wasn't about to interfere, the robber wouldnt have pointed his gun at him so he wouldn't have to shot and kill him. Why not just call the police in that moment and get that guy arrested later. That's the way to go instead of shooting someone on the street. Oh well, 3rd world obviously.

I bet if you would have called the police in a country like brazil and tell them an armed robber just stole someones bike they would laugh and dismiss it instantly. Maaaaybe they would file a report. But either way it would probably be completely fruitless as armed robbery crimes probably go unsolved 9.8 times out of 10 in a country like brazil.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Logen on October 17, 2013, 09:34:16 pm
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in most countries police officers are considered to be always "on duty" and must interfere whenever they witness a crime regardless whether they're on their shift or not?
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Paul on October 17, 2013, 09:35:51 pm
I know in some US jurisdictions (the territory is so vast and varried when it comes to law and police officers, even within same state lines, that you can't really make any big generalizations) they would have pumped this guy with at least a full clip.

Why are they still using world war I or II rifles?
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: zagibu on October 17, 2013, 09:40:43 pm
Jesus would not only have let the robber get away, he would also have given him his purse and his shoes.

Why are they still using world war I or II rifles?

Because USA still won wars back then. Maybe it has to do with the weapons that were used.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Oberyn on October 17, 2013, 09:45:09 pm
Why are they still using world war I or II rifles?

What? As far as I know AR-15s are common for certain districts. That's not WW2 is it? Is it something to do with the word clip instead of mag?
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Miwiw on October 17, 2013, 09:48:25 pm
I bet if you would have called the police in a country like brazil and tell them an armed robber just stole someones bike they would laugh and dismiss it instantly. Maaaaybe they would file a report. But either way it would probably be completely fruitless as armed robbery crimes probably go unsolved 9.8 times out of 10 in a country like brazil.

Okay, brazil fine, but weren't we already talking about it in general, as like you americans arguing that you'd also welcome such a behaviour of an officer though? Of course it's sad that it runs like that in brazil, most likely that's what's the government + police is guilty for though.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Utrakil on October 17, 2013, 09:51:15 pm
If the cop wasn't about to interfere, the robber wouldnt have pointed his gun at him so he wouldn't have to shot and kill him. Why not just call the police in that moment and get that guy arrested later. That's the way to go instead of shooting someone on the street. Oh well, 3rd world obviously.
Why call the police when a policeofficer is there?
And then well it is police duty to stop a crime and prevent the criminal from escaping.
So the officer did his job. this doesn't make him a hero nor a murderer.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Vodner on October 17, 2013, 09:52:49 pm
If the cop wasn't about to interfere, the robber wouldnt have pointed his gun at him so he wouldn't have to shot and kill him.
You are arguing that an officer should just let a violent thief escape, due to the chance that the thief might pull his gun, thus forcing the officer to shoot him. I would argue that, if the thief is so violent that he is willing to draw his weapon on anybody who interferes, then it is more important that the officer intervene. The officer shouldn't be held responsible for the actions of the criminal.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Paul on October 17, 2013, 10:01:50 pm
What? As far as I know AR-15s are common for certain districts. That's not WW2 is it? Is it something to do with the word clip instead of mag?

Afaik clips are only used in firearms with fixed magazins. So yeah, most post WW2 guns have detachable magazines. No clips there.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Swaggart on October 17, 2013, 10:14:37 pm
For fucks sake, the cop was not interfering he was intervening.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Butan on October 17, 2013, 10:59:41 pm
Why call the police when a policeofficer is there?
And then well it is police duty to stop a crime and prevent the criminal from escaping.
So the officer did his job. this doesn't make him a hero nor a murderer.



And I would also add that even if firing shots at someone doesnt increase his lifespan, a normal cop shoot to neutralize and wouldnt mind that the criminal survive and face trial.
The cop in the vid didnt put a bullet in the brain of the thief after he made sure he was K.O., and he most likely called police/hospital himself.

We still havent invented a stun phasers like in Star Trek unfortunately, the most common law enforcing tool remains the bullet when faced with firearms and other lethal weapons combined with violent behaviour.


I'm not versed in non-lethal ammunition/weapons and their capability so I cant talk about why policemen arent equipped with other kind of weapons that would have a decreased kill rate ratio. I guess most are too costy/inefficient/still dangerous. And maybe there is someone up there that still prefer some criminals dead than in prison.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Xant on October 18, 2013, 12:56:48 am
If the cop wasn't about to interfere, the robber wouldnt have pointed his gun at him so he wouldn't have to shot and kill him. Why not just call the police in that moment and get that guy arrested later. That's the way to go instead of shooting someone on the street. Oh well, 3rd world obviously.
Say that the robber would have gotten away and been reported. The police find him and go to arrest him. He pulls a gun on them. Now what?
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Miwiw on October 18, 2013, 01:09:54 am
Be careful to not get shot, try to take his gun and not let anyone die. Preferable the robber should die in that case though and not anyone else. But deaths should always be avoided.  :P

I know that doesn't count in america obviously, as there's still the death penalty like in the "good old times".
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Xant on October 18, 2013, 01:15:40 am
Be careful to not get shot, try to take his gun and not let anyone die. Preferable the robber should die in that case though and not anyone else. But deaths should always be avoided.  :P
Do you even know how unreasonable a request that is? Batman can do it, because he's not real. Police officers are real.

Anyway, why does it suddenly become okay for the robber to die? It's fine now that he's sold the motorbike and it'll never be recovered? Because that's literally the only difference. Why is it fine to kill him a bit later but not at the scene of the crime?
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Miwiw on October 18, 2013, 01:24:48 am
If he's to arrested, takes out a gun and threatens the life of policemen then, while he's at a dead end, it's obviously better to kill him than having some policemen to die... but the scene in the video only shows a guy robbing a bike, nothing more. He could have taken a knife to threat the guy as well and most people would be clever enough to give up the bike.
Deaths should be avoided, but not at all costs. As I said before that officer shouldn't have taken out his gun in the first place. But as we already disagree at that point, why bother going on more?

Video shows a robbery, your post is 1 a top, a criminal defending himself with a gun. If he uses it, his own fault.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Artyem on October 18, 2013, 01:25:11 am
Be careful to not get shot, try to take his gun and not let anyone die.

Easier said than done, how do you propose you take the gun away from him?  If he's already armed and ready to use his weapon, your options are narrowed down by quite a bit.  Non-lethal weaponry is an option in some cases, but if we're talking about a police raid on an armed suspect's premises, they would probably be packing lethal weaponry / ammunition.

Preferable the robber should die in that case though and not anyone else. But deaths should always be avoided.  :P

Generally in a situation like that it is preferable to get an arrest rather than a casualty, but sometimes it's the decision between one confirmed death or several possible deaths.  Which is typically why police are quick to put down lethal threats rather than try and arrest them.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Xant on October 18, 2013, 01:26:45 am
If he's to arrested, takes out a gun and threatens the life of policemen then, while he's at a dead end, it's obviously better to kill him than having some policemen to die... but the scene in the video only shows a guy robbing a bike, nothing more. He could have taken a knife to threat the guy as well and most people would be clever enough to give up the bike.
Deaths should be avoided, but not at all costs. As I said before that officer shouldn't have taken out his gun in the first place. But as we already disagree at that point, why bother going on more?

Video shows a robbery, your post is 1 a top, a criminal defending himself with a gun. If he uses it, his own fault.
What? The robber points his gun at the police officer. What makes you think he wouldn't point a gun at the police attempting to arrest him when he clearly has no qualms doing it on the video? What makes "to be arrested" different than what the police officer is doing on the video?
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Lt_Anders on October 18, 2013, 01:27:51 am
OMG, so much incorrect spewed. Half you shits need to go to a third world country.

If the crooks are armed, they don't wait to "surrender" they fuking shoot to kill right off the bat.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Xant on October 18, 2013, 01:32:18 am
OMG, so much incorrect spewed. Half you shits need to go to a third world country.

If the crooks are armed, they don't wait to "surrender" they fuking shoot to kill right off the bat.

And I suppose you've experienced this shoot-to-kill firsthand?
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Lt_Anders on October 18, 2013, 01:53:25 am
And I suppose you've experienced this shoot-to-kill firsthand?

No, but my family has. I have family that lives in a third world(and more "affluent" country).

The Bahamas. My Father works for This company. (http://www.bahamafood.com/) You could find him if you searched/knew his name.(and my Stepmother, too. The worked for the local part of the Firm here in town before going overseas to there. He makes, relatively, good money, being a director)
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Xant on October 18, 2013, 01:54:04 am
what
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Lt_Anders on October 18, 2013, 01:56:12 am
what

You asked if I've experienced this? No, but I visit that country yearly, and have seen the effects it's had on the population. As well as talks with the middle class/upper class locals.

In fact, my father was robbed, at gunpoint, in a famous hotel on the island and lost ~5k USD.(mainly from things like Watch and stuff he was wearing)

And, just an FYI: Owning guns in the bahamas(outside of Shotguns) is illegal...
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: zagibu on October 18, 2013, 01:56:54 am
Why didn't Jesus shoot the devil? He could have expelled all evil from the world.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Xant on October 18, 2013, 01:59:16 am
You asked if I've experienced this? No, but I visit that country yearly, and have seen the effects it's had on the population. As well as talks with the middle class/upper class locals.

In fact, my father was robbed, at gunpoint, in a famous hotel on the island and lost ~5k USD.(mainly from things like Watch and stuff he was wearing)

And, just an FYI: Owning guns in the bahamas(outside of Shotguns) is illegal...

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Hahahahahhahahaahahahah. What the fuck? Anders, the gangsta-3rd world traveller, visiting........


*drumroll*

The Bahamas.... yearly.

No wonder you've become such an expert on these matters. You and the other five million tourists yearly.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Sir_Hans on October 18, 2013, 02:02:22 am
Why didn't Jesus shoot the devil? He could have expelled all evil from the world.

Because his hands were nailed to wooden beams.  :lol:
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: AntiBlitz on October 18, 2013, 04:15:48 am
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Hahahahahhahahaahahahah. What the fuck? Anders, the gangsta-3rd world traveller, visiting........


*drumroll*

The Bahamas.... yearly.

No wonder you've become such an expert on these matters. You and the other five million tourists yearly.

along the mexican coast and most of the tourist islands in the Bahamas all have armed guards carrying machine guns in what look like resort fortresses with walls and towers.  Had a friend go to Punta Cana or however its spelled and he said he was yelled at by 3 guys with AK's for climbing a tree to get a coconut.  They are quite bad, most of the populace lives in squabble.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Xant on October 18, 2013, 04:26:27 am
Population of 350,000 and 5,000,0000 tourists per year. Brave souls, each and every one of them.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Lt_Anders on October 18, 2013, 06:36:36 am
Population of 350,000 and 5,000,0000 tourists per year. Brave souls, each and every one of them.

as long as you stay within the like tourist areas, usually. Several Tourists have been murdered once they(unintentionally, or not) once they went not even 500 meters inland. I mean, the shit part of town is on the other side of the hill.

Been there, oh 4 times. Two times I went through, the cops were full loadout with AK-47s and rounding shitbags/illegals up and deporting them. Those guys were just shy of military gear(so maybe SWAT type equivalent?) Also, have you EVER been to the Bahamas?

Police on every. single. street. Downtown(the tourist area). Hell, there's even cops on the bloody "fortified" Rich Man island of Paradise Island(all the famous Celebs have houses there). Fukers robbed boat parts right from ships docked in the 1 million dollar/day harbor.

Want to laugh some more? Just because 5 million people visit it, doesn't mean that it's safe. they have 325,000(probably 350,000 with all the illegal immigrants) on an island 207 km². Hell, I've even seen the people who live in the, effectively(cause it's not actually gov santioned), landfill for the island. People live in the Garbage dump. Please, go Berate me more for my views.
(also, if it wasn't some 600 bucks a flight I'd visit more often. But 600 is a tad pricey for a 1-2 week trip)
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Xant on October 18, 2013, 06:43:43 am
I assume you've been shot at a lot, then? Otherwise, how is any of that relevant?
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Oberyn on October 18, 2013, 08:40:46 am
Afaik clips are only used in firearms with fixed magazins. So yeah, most post WW2 guns have detachable magazines. No clips there.

Oh Paul, you humourless pedant. Using clip in that form is easily acceptable as slang.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Teeth on October 18, 2013, 10:32:13 am
Another matter, why did he rob someone with a camera mounted on his helmet?
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Vibe on October 18, 2013, 10:58:20 am
Oh Paul, you humourless pedant. Using clip in that form is easily acceptable as slang.

Not for Paul, the hunter of people misusing the terms clip and magazine since 2011!
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Sniger on October 18, 2013, 11:26:10 am
Why didn't Jesus shoot the devil? He could have expelled all evil from the world.

the devil claimed that noone would follow god. if god just removed the devil, it would be the same as agreeing that devil was right.

(no god is not = jesus. if jesus was god he would have sent himself to the earth, sacrifice his own life and then ressurect himself while speaking to himself from heaven... wtf?)
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Xant on October 18, 2013, 11:38:07 am
the devil claimed that noone would follow god. if god just removed the devil, it would be the same as agreeing that devil was right.

No, not only is that a logical fallacy, it's retarded.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Sir_Hans on October 18, 2013, 12:32:56 pm
Another matter, why did he rob someone with a camera mounted on his helmet?

I'm not completely positive on this as I don't ride: But I think most helmet cams are mounted inside of the helmet behind the visor. So it probably wouldn't be visible unless you you were specifically looking for the helmet cam. (especially if the visor was tinted/shaded)

I've seen a lot of footie of riders getting pulled over and they are talking to cops the entire time with the helmet cam rolling. The Cops never seem to notice either, that or they don't care... but probably they don't notice...
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Kafein on October 18, 2013, 01:30:41 pm
Another matter, why did he rob someone with a camera mounted on his helmet?

I'm not sure he saw the camera. Inside job joke.

Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Sniger on October 18, 2013, 01:40:03 pm
No, not only is that a logical fallacy, it's retarded.

its not my idea its just what the old book says :p

everyone is entitled to their opinion but tbh, i stopped caring about yours
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Xant on October 18, 2013, 02:13:36 pm
its not my idea its just what the old book says :p

everyone is entitled to their opinion but tbh, i stopped caring about yours
There's a reason no one intelligent uses "the old book" for anything other than starting a fire.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: zagibu on October 18, 2013, 02:17:37 pm
the devil claimed that noone would follow god. if god just removed the devil, it would be the same as agreeing that devil was right.

So god is a petty old man that rather would be right than remove evil from the world? Sounds about right.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Leshma on October 18, 2013, 02:40:17 pm
God doesn't exist. It's an image of what we humans would like to achieve. Devil is representation of our weaknesses.

Edit: I'm a human, after all. Shouldn't refer to humanity as "them".
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Butan on October 18, 2013, 02:41:55 pm
God doesn't exist. It's an image of what we humans would like to achieve. Devil is representation of our weaknesses.

Edit: I'm a human, after all. Shouldn't refer to humanity as "them".



Begone, devil!
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Xant on October 18, 2013, 02:44:23 pm
God doesn't exist. It's an image of what we humans would like to achieve. Devil is representation of our weaknesses.

Edit: I'm a human, after all. Shouldn't refer to humanity as "them".
What do you mean by "would like to achieve"? God as he is written in the Bible (especially the Old Testament) is one magnificently fucked up fellow and I'm pretty sure no one (not already religious) would actually confess to him being their idea of a perfect end-state.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Nightmare798 on October 18, 2013, 02:46:18 pm
Come on that cop was a hero, everyone knows stuff is more valuable than human life.

stuff IS indeed more valuable than a life of a criminal scumbag.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Bjord on October 18, 2013, 02:46:27 pm
Oh look, the discussion devolved into religious debate.

Is there something similar to Godwin's Law that instead refers to the inevitability of religious analogies in relation to a thread's longevity?
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Vibe on October 18, 2013, 02:46:31 pm
god was made up as a means to control the sheeple
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Kafein on October 18, 2013, 02:55:18 pm
Oh look, the discussion devolved into religious debate.

Is there something similar to Godwin's Law that instead refers to the inevitability of religious analogies in relation to a thread's longevity?

The probability of anything being said in a given thread tends to one as the thread increases in length. But the probability of someone referring to a similar principle for a given subset of things to say like you just did tends to one faster.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Leshma on October 18, 2013, 02:58:01 pm
Quote
god was made up as a means to control the sheeple

I disagree. Discovering God was essential part of our evolution, at some point that was the best way to spread certain values among humanity, values that are essential to our progress as a society. Now we have evolved enough and we don't need God anymore. But those "good" values must stay and keep spreading among people.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Bjord on October 18, 2013, 03:01:27 pm
The probability of anything being said in a given thread tends to one as the thread increases in length. But the probability of someone referring to a similar principle for a given subset of things to say like you just did tends to one faster.

There's been plenty of threads that has devolved into political, religious or otherwise controversial discussions in threads where they didn't belong. I have yet to see anyone state Godwin's Law in those threads.

Also FYI, the parameters for Godwin's Law has already been met previously in this thread. :wink:

Most recent example, excluding this one, is Panos' thread in us gentlemen's board, which turned into a rude exchange about nationalism and xenophobia.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Vibe on October 18, 2013, 03:14:31 pm
I disagree. Discovering God was essential part of our evolution, at some point that was the best way to spread certain values among humanity, values that are essential to our progress as a society. Now we have evolved enough and we don't need God anymore. But those "good" values must stay and keep spreading among people.

While a bit nicer phrased, you basically said the same thing. The sheeple didn't know how to behave, so to say - thus they needed a set of rules/principles/values they should follow - they used the unexplained of the world to give power to an imaginary person, whom they used to introduce those rules. Now some were good for the people and some were good for manipulating them into wars, giving money or other acts that benefited the higher classes more than them.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Bjord on October 18, 2013, 03:16:14 pm
The Romans used slaves, the Pope used sheeple, now we use Chinese and Indians.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Vibe on October 18, 2013, 03:19:25 pm
The Romans used slaves, the Pope used sheeple, now we use Chinese and Indians.

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Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Bjord on October 18, 2013, 03:44:39 pm
I said that, not Kafein. :wink:
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Xant on October 18, 2013, 03:47:48 pm
No you didn't, Kafein did.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Bjord on October 18, 2013, 03:51:55 pm
Xant, I like you too, but I think we need some space from each other. It's not me, it's you.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Kafein on October 18, 2013, 05:50:12 pm
Xant, I like you too, but I think we need some space from each other. It's not me, it's you.

You "two" should go see a therapist about that schizophrenia.

Most recent example, excluding this one, is Panos' thread in us gentlemen's board, which turned into a rude exchange about nationalism and xenophobia.

Given the subject and concerned parties (mostly Panos), I wouldn't say that discussion was rude.


I said that, not Kafein. :wink:

Yes.

What I said is that the probability of someone saying what Bjord said tends to one. He gave classical examples of attractor subjects such as religion or guns, I did not.
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Bjord on October 18, 2013, 05:59:16 pm
True, I hinted at it, but I waited a few minutes before posting it, the discussion about "God" and religion had already started. :P
Title: Re: How to fight crime.
Post by: Swaggart on October 18, 2013, 11:10:21 pm
I disagree. Discovering God was essential part of our evolution, at some point that was the best way to spread certain values among humanity, values that are essential to our progress as a society. Now we have evolved enough and we don't need God anymore. But those "good" values must stay and keep spreading among people.

Many of the values that are the central components of major religions were around for much longer than said religions, so saying that they were the best way to spread said values is a stretch. These values are inherent and intuitive for any society or community. Even those that weren't touched by religion, such as those living on secluded Pacific islands, developed societal norms and values that differ very little from any other society. Deities and other superstitions were an attempt by early man to answer the basic questions of why we are here and how we came to be, not some sort of grand social engineering experiment.

If anything, religion was and still is the greatest impediment for true advancement of human society as it is one of the most divisive aspects of human life.