cRPG

Off Topic => General Off Topic => Topic started by: Christo on September 18, 2013, 06:50:10 pm

Title: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Christo on September 18, 2013, 06:50:10 pm
http://www.vice.com/read/the-golden-dawn-murdered-an-antifascist-rapper-last-night (http://www.vice.com/read/the-golden-dawn-murdered-an-antifascist-rapper-last-night)

I'm sure this will bait our friend here, drama bait engaged
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Turboflex on September 18, 2013, 07:12:11 pm
well communists aren't going to beat themselves up
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 18, 2013, 07:42:29 pm
fucking fascist boot lickers
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Paul on September 18, 2013, 07:58:40 pm
Well, Panos is still muted for some time so there won't be a halfway eloquent attempt of defending the incident. Instead some of the braindead "hitler did nothing wrong" guys of this forum will drop crude one-liners.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Christo on September 18, 2013, 08:01:37 pm
Ah crap.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 18, 2013, 08:11:25 pm
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I'll tolerate anyone except the intolerant.  Fascists can literally die in a fire.

BTW get rick rolled more panos, you fucking scrub.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Sniger on September 18, 2013, 08:32:02 pm
lol http://www.vice.com/read/golden-dawn-camp-photos

didnt think this was legal :p
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Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 18, 2013, 08:33:34 pm
reminds me of the quality of people you have in the KKK, literally the lowest common denominators America has to offer.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Sniger on September 18, 2013, 08:37:19 pm
amazing... and these guys is left alone?! wtf... what a shit country (goverment) and also they are fouling an ancient symbol. freaks.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Molly on September 18, 2013, 10:00:30 pm
lol http://www.vice.com/read/golden-dawn-camp-photos

didnt think this was legal :p
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I just noticed that Panos used the same symbol as forum avatar and on Steam... :(

I just feel pity for him now.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Franke on September 18, 2013, 10:30:48 pm
[...]Instead some of the braindead "hitler did nothing wrong" guys of this forum will drop crude one-liners.

Not gonna happen. He left (http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/dkg_wilhelm-alias-dkg_dragon-hort-auf-zu-spielen!/msg836180/#msg836180).
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Clockworkkiller on September 18, 2013, 10:38:56 pm
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I'll tolerate anyone except the intolerant.  Fascists can literally die in a fire.

BTW get rick rolled more panos, you fucking scrub.

word
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Sniger on September 19, 2013, 12:00:00 pm
the symbol isnt exactly the original ancient one but its pretty fucking close... its like the swats-ziga (got u forum cens!) slightly modified viking pagan symbol. now i dislike panos and every other facist prick with lack of creativity to come up with an original logo.

they are enemies of man. complete contradiction to how we are suppose to live and act.

imagine a world where everyone co-operated and lived in harmony. a world where every single citizen were looking to the stars and worked for a common project: SPACE AND BEYOND! SCIENCE AND EDUCATION! HEALTH! NATURE! BALANCE AND HARMONY!

sad ;/

*dragging loads of fuel to christo's drama-truck* :lol:
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Sniger on September 19, 2013, 12:07:12 pm

:)
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Berserkadin on September 19, 2013, 03:11:18 pm
Antifascists are currently attacking Golden Dawn headquarters, of course police are after them, especielly since a lot of cops in Greece are golden dawn supporters.

You can't reason with fascists, violence is the only language worth speaking. Liberals have never been able to stop them with their talking. Must feel nice for people cunts like Panos to have the cops backing him up.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Prpavi on September 19, 2013, 03:12:57 pm
I just noticed that Panos used the same symbol as forum avatar and on Steam... :(

I just feel pity for him now.

I think Panos is mostly trolling with this stuff, if not I just wish for him to grow up soon and realise this is just the behaviour the goverments wants.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Kafein on September 19, 2013, 03:56:21 pm
I've seen pretty convincing clues that Panos has been or still is in the military, that alone makes guessing his real ideology quite easy.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 19, 2013, 03:58:40 pm
I've seen pretty convincing clues that Panos has been or still is in the military, that alone makes guessing his real ideology quite easy.
Was him stating he's been in the military one of the clues?
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 19, 2013, 03:59:56 pm
Antifascists are currently attacking Golden Dawn headquarters, of course police are after them, especielly since a lot of cops in Greece are golden dawn supporters.

You can't reason with fascists, violence is the only language worth speaking. Liberals have never been able to stop them with their talking. Must feel nice for people cunts like Panos to have the cops backing him up.
By antifascists you mean socialist fascists who want some other despot ruling, right?
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Kafein on September 19, 2013, 04:22:29 pm
By antifascists you mean socialist fascists who want some other despot ruling, right?

Communists don't want despots ruling but they inevitably lead the most powerhungry and cynical of their members into power because all the others are incapable of doing anything productive.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 19, 2013, 04:43:35 pm
Communists don't want despots ruling but they inevitably lead the most powerhungry and cynical of their members into power because all the others are incapable of doing anything productive.
There's a reason I said socialist, and the communist idea requires a period of fascism anyhow.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 19, 2013, 05:36:00 pm
tl;dr (will likely do so later)

But nationalists and "patriots" are dangerous to a country.  Their "my country/side/team can do no wrong" attitude is a terrible way of improving their country (lacks any ability of critical reasoning or self reflection).

it's actually makes me laugh out loud in America when I see people riding around with flags or support our troops bumper stickers on their car.  for two reasons, a flag or sticker doesn't make you any more patriotic or supportive of the troops than anyone else, it does nothing.  and the rest of us live in America as well, and want to see it improved and bettered just as much as the guy wearing an American flag track suit.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 19, 2013, 05:59:29 pm
Warning: Don't read if you are a brainwashed moron.

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)
2nd gen immigrants are always problematic
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Utrakil on September 19, 2013, 06:22:23 pm
2nd gen immigrants are always problematic
Wich comes naturally if in the only place you call your home people keep telling you that you and your culture don't belong there.
If your invironment keeps telling you that you don't belong there but you got nowhere else to go because this is the place you were born and raised it is normal that you try to stick with other people like you and you stasrt to withdraw from the hostile invironment and sometimes even react with counteragression.

I do not get why people fear to loose their culture by allowing other cultures arround.
If the native people of a country would really care about their culture it would not fade. But the decline of christianity has nothing to do with the rise of other religion, but with the people simply loosing interest in their religion.
And Germans going mad about immigrants should check some numbers to find out that our people don't get enough children to keep the culture alive. So it seems to not be a viable culture.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Molly on September 19, 2013, 06:46:12 pm
I start to wonder if I can remember a time I've read more bullshit in one space than here...

Nope, don't think I have.

...but I just gonna ignore everyone in here. I am so tired of arguing with this kind of brick-heads. Claiming they read the "true media" and everyone else is "brain-washed" when it's actually the other way around is kinda funny tho.
Instead I just gonna be nice to people and enjoy an evening in a pub with my Turkish, Tunisian and Persian buddies.

And all you Islamophobic dickheads can kiss my ass!
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Molly on September 19, 2013, 07:06:00 pm
If repeating every single line of the standard right-wing populist speech makes you the one informed by the "true media", then I guess you are.
Still, just repeating shit w/o even one single own thought in it makes you rather pathetic and "brain-washed" in my book.

Not to mention, if you girlfriend is "half-german" - which as a statement is already wrong on soooo many level - she is prolly "2nd generation" too. At least a half... so she`s half... what...?

Nevermind, don't bother to answer.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 19, 2013, 07:13:21 pm
It's about another culture taking over and replacing your own culture. And that is happening in more and more european countries. Of course it's a very slow process.
On the other hand, it won't take more than 50 years until every european nation has more muslim inhabitants than non-muslim, which will result in sharia law being introduced, christianity and western-values being banned or at least limited to a certain extent, and discrimination of non-muslims being a daylie issue.
That is the simple outcome of mass-immigration (from mostly muslim countries), politicians throughout all parties know that multiculturalism has failed and was set to fail at some point before it began.
Western/european/christian culture and muslim-culture simply can't coexist peacefully longer than a few decades within the same country, they are incompatible. Everybody denying that is a liar, hypocrite or really is that stupid.
No way in hell that would happen, that is a beyond silly statement.

The Ottoman Empire functioned pretty well in the earlier stages with large amounts of Christians and Muslims, so did Russia until USSR became a thing. Also, both sides of these debates are fucking retarded, with one side claiming they're being invaded and that their culture will be banned and everything they love be destroyed, and the other side refusing to come up with any reasonable arguments or statements and simply screaming "EVIL chocolate chip cookieS!!!! NOOOOOO!!! EVIL!!!" and aren't able to come up with one decent claim for why not wanting foreigners taking over your neighborhoods and trying to enforce certain aspects of their cultures down into other peoples throats, half of the "EVIL chocolate chip cookieS HATE OTHER CULTURES!!! SKINHEADS!!! WANNA EXTERMINATE FOREIGNERS!!!" crowd are also socialists or commies, and neglect to mention that most commie regimes usually aren't strangers to massive ethnic cleansings either...
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 19, 2013, 07:18:04 pm
If repeating every single line of the standard right-wing populist speech makes you the one informed by the "true media", then I guess you are.
Still, just repeating shit w/o even one single own thought in it makes you rather pathetic and "brain-washed" in my book.

Not to mention, if you girlfriend is "half-german" - which as a statement is already wrong on soooo many level - she is prolly "2nd generation" too. At least a half... so she`s half... what...?

Nevermind, don't bother to answer.
You're only a 2nd gen if both your parents are immigrants/2nd gens whose family originate from the same area.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 19, 2013, 07:21:37 pm
lol at right wing ideologues... :rolleyes:

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Humanity and civilization are evolving, you guys can hop on board any time you want.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: zagibu on September 19, 2013, 07:30:12 pm
Lol at Muslims "invading" Europe. Our economy actively lures those low-pay workers here. I continue to be amazed that all those poor right wing fanatics don't notice they are simply used by their parties as disposable pawns. First, use their votes to amass riches, then when everything goes to hell, give them guns so they can "cleanse" the nations and restart the cycle.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 19, 2013, 07:32:39 pm
Same thing happens in America.  These poor (even welfare recipient) right wingers vote for politicians who get them all riled up, and then those politicians pass laws that hurt these poor people even more.  But they're too retarded to figure it out, so they keep voting for the same people who share their "values".  massive face palm.

I imagine Panos comes to this same realization every morning when he gets out of bed:

Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Gnjus on September 19, 2013, 07:33:04 pm
I don't know why you people keep dragging Panos into this, he has been in a left-oriented tolerant open-for-all clan, he was a very good teammate with catholics, orthodox, muslims & atheists, as well as communists, apolitical folks and probably some undercover jews or something. Maybe we even had blacks & asians without knowing it, you can't always tell by their voices. Hell he was even commanded by a commie so I think he's obviously trolling you all. Quite successfully.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Osiris on September 19, 2013, 10:47:37 pm
Golden Dawn makes me think of some kind of oblivion bad guy :P However i hear they are the third most popular party in the country
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: zagibu on September 19, 2013, 11:04:57 pm
As I am the one with the most posts here, I guess this is pointed at me:

I am neither a fanatic of any kind, nor associated with any right wing political organisation or party. I never voted for a right winged party since my very first vote. One time I even voted for the big left-wing party in Germany, but that only was to steal at least some seats from the established parties calling themselves right-center, left-center, liberal and so on.

All the right winged "parties" in Germany, if you can even call them so, are dumb retards, and their voters are indeed mostly poor white fucks. I am not.
This is what I am saying. Talk about immigration, islam, some facts and the truth about it and everybody calls you a chocolate chip cookie and facist and right wing member and so on.
It's just the typical nonsense blabla, because you have no arguments whatsoever to disprove what I say.
How could you, it's facts, personal experience, things I witnessed personally or people I know (who are by no means chocolate chip cookies or facists) told me.
Good night, I stop here, as it makes no sense to argue with people that are deadlocked in indoctrinated leftist views.

I have a question for you: Do you really think Muslims would come over here if they couldn't find a job? Millions of them work daily as cleaners, factory and construction workers, in logistics, the care sector, and so on. They and many other foreigners basically do the jobs we can't do anymore, because we don't have enough children.

They are not following some sinister plan to take over the world, they just go wherever they can earn the most money.

BTW: I agree with you that Muslims are by far the least willing to integrate into our culture. I have already witnessed three different immigration waves before them, and there were never as many problems as we have now with religious freedom, headscarves, swimming lessons in school, etc.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Prpavi on September 19, 2013, 11:08:20 pm

Comrades Mollydon, Pripyat Prips & Dadason can confirm. We're as red as it gets and we love to party on every possible occasion.

I can confirm  :mrgreen:

Don't take Panos so srsly.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Christo on September 19, 2013, 11:45:00 pm
I don't know why you people keep dragging Panos into this, he has been in a left-oriented tolerant open-for-all clan, he was a very good teammate with catholics, orthodox, muslims & atheists, as well as communists, apolitical folks and probably some undercover jews or something. Maybe we even had blacks & asians without knowing it, you can't always tell by their voices. Hell he was even commanded by a commie so I think he's obviously trolling you all. Quite successfully.
(click to show/hide)

I just did it for the drama
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Berserkadin on September 19, 2013, 11:48:14 pm
High unemployement + lots of immigrations = Perfect climate for cutting down salaries, and then people get mad at immigrants for the lower salaries, instead for the ones who are really behind it all. And our goverment handles the whole thing quite badly, and the media blowing shit up and making everything even worse.

I would consider myself closest to anarchism and syndicalist movements, as far as I know there aren't any anarchistic states around. I kinda hate the left-wing movement in general, to many moralist, radical feminists and fanatics. I see nothing wrong with using violence against chocolate chip cookies because I loath chocolate chip cookies, I don't do it because of some abstract sense of being "right".
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Christo on September 20, 2013, 12:00:40 am
enough drama done.

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Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Xant on September 20, 2013, 06:49:15 am
They are not following some sinister plan to take over the world, they just go wherever they can earn the most money.
They aren't following a sinister plan, but that doesn't mean the end result won't be the same.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Gnjus on September 20, 2013, 09:19:20 am
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Typical for multicultural-fanatics, throw shit at others instead of giving counter-arguments.


Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: BASNAK on September 20, 2013, 09:29:16 am
My parents immigrated to Sweden. But I still think it's very stupid that the government and most parties just shun and try to ignore any isolationalist/anti-immigration party like the Swedish Democrats. Not because I agree with these parties but because there is clearly issues with the immigration and crime (not only from immigrants), and the government & Co. chooses to act like everything is fine and dandy instead.

I'd like someone to deal with the immigration and crime problems. But not all these far-right-wing uneducated people that only do it out of pure racism, because they are usually just as bad as criminal immigrants. I think the government & Co. are the ones who should wake up and deal with it.

P.S: I'm not against immigration. Just let the right people in, and kick out those that misbehave.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Kafein on September 20, 2013, 09:54:18 am
Warlord, you are using the word "truth" very liberally (pun intended), but you don't seem to have anything to back your claims except "My likeminded friend circle confirmed my prejudices" and "I read it somewhere on the internet". Can you point me to a peer-reviewed study of european population projections, or any actually neutral source that confirms your eurabia claims ? Because otherwise I wouldn't be that sure about the "truth" of it.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Xant on September 20, 2013, 10:22:41 am
Warlord, you are using the word "truth" very liberally (pun intended), but you don't seem to have anything to back your claims except "My likeminded friend circle confirmed my prejudices" and "I read it somewhere on the internet". Can you point me to a peer-reviewed study of european population projections, or any actually neutral source that confirms your eurabia claims ? Because otherwise I wouldn't be that sure about the "truth" of it.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4385024,00.html

It even says expert in the title

And if by some miracle that didn't convince you, here is a Youtube video

Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Xant on September 20, 2013, 10:39:32 am
Something backed up by research and evidence can be considered neutral, as long as it is made transparent how the conclusions of the research were reached.

For example, that Youtube video I linked has a grave, serious narrator that makes it sound official, but it provides no sources or alternate scenarios, instead just stating things as facts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe#Projections

That is more neutral, and provides sources. It also highlights an issue with the Youtube video, which assumes that fertility rates will remain the same for 50 years, when the Pew Research Center study predicts they won't.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Molly on September 20, 2013, 10:49:42 am
What annoys me the most is the generalizations going on in here:

The MUSLIMS are overtaking Europe.
The IMMIGRANTS are criminals.
The CHRISTIAN CULTURE is erased.

And that is just bullshit.
The majority of Muslims are just fine people. Bad people are in every group.
The majority of immigrants are just poor people trying to find a way to lead a "normal" life.
The Christian culture is mostly already gone cuz everyone is just thinking of their well-being only anyway.

So, spare me the nonsense about your truth. Your truth is just a bunch of stereotypes and generalizations. And about those statistics, if you even had just the minimal knowledge about actual statistical math, you would know that I could set up something that correlates the rise of women underwear thefts with the loss of potatoes to rain this year. Just because I can mathematical make something shiny and look solid, doesn't make it an actual useful fact.

And Xant disqualifies himself already with having the fat face of Timo Soini in his avatar before. Can't get more right wing populist than that... pathetic.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Kafein on September 20, 2013, 10:56:28 am
I don't believe in a "cultural" invasion of Europe by muslims at all. But I think it is an important thing to talk about the implications of a new "big" religion in countries that are supposed to be completely neutral when it comes to religion. Compromises on this neutrality are made without rime or reason (religious symbols in official buildings, biology courses, you name it) all too often in the name of spiritual freedom when really all we are doing is making exceptions on rules that should be universal, to accomodate for religions and beliefs which should strictly remain a personal and private thing. Even worse, this is naturally done in a way that is completely unfair. If tomorrow I send my kids to school then say they can't attend drawing classes because my religion forbids drawing and I want to teach my kids my religion, nobody will take it seriously even though this is the exact same issue with headscarves or hallal food in canteens, because I do not represent a religious group "big enough" to be able to pressure the government into bending the principles or the state to my will.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Xant on September 20, 2013, 11:02:27 am
And Xant disqualifies himself already with having the fat face of Timo Soini in his avatar before. Can't get more right wing populist than that... pathetic.
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Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Gnjus on September 20, 2013, 11:02:43 am
And Xant disqualifies himself already with having the fat face of Timo Soini in his avatar before. Can't get more right wing populist than that... pathetic.


I wouldn't be surprised if Xant himself looks like a hybrid of Shrek and Jabba the Hut, he sure as hell seems like one, with all the slime he spreads around here.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Molly on September 20, 2013, 11:05:04 am
In Germany, the was recently something going through the media which clearly shows that Germany isn't overtaken but tries well to get everyone under the hood:

A 14 yrs old muslim girl was supposed to go swimming during the sports lesson. She didn't want to cuz of her strict beliefs, like being not properly clothed and she said that she doesn't want to see other girls and boys "naked".
The school said that there are bathing suits for women which are exactly for this purpose, like diving suits, not leaving any skin uncovered. So, they refused to let her off the sports lesson.
She went to trial for her right of not going to the swimming lesson cuz of her religious beliefs. The judge said "Nope, you have to go cuz there are options for you which are officially okay with your religious "leaders" and therefore it ain't a religious but a personal problem and about that I don't give a damn."

The result is now that she still doesn't go swimming but will get the worst grade for that lesson because she could...

How could someone seriously see the democratic values in danger in a country where things are handled like this?
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Molly on September 20, 2013, 11:06:10 am
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Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Xant on September 20, 2013, 11:08:34 am
I'm sorry, you're disqualified from posting gifs because your avatar has a shirt in it.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Kafein on September 20, 2013, 11:09:24 am
In Germany, the was recently something going through the media which clearly shows that Germany isn't overtaken but tries well to get everyone under the hood:

A 14 yrs old muslim girl was supposed to go swimming during the sports lesson. She didn't want to cuz of her strict beliefs, like being not properly clothed and she said that she doesn't want to see other girls and boys "naked".
The school said that there are bathing suits for women which are exactly for this purpose, like diving suits, not leaving any skin uncovered. So, they refused to let her off the sports lesson.
She went to trial for her right of not going to the swimming lesson cuz of her religious beliefs. The judge said "Nope, you have to go cuz there are options for you which are officially okay with your religious "leaders" and therefore it ain't a religious but a personal problem and about that I don't give a damn."

The result is now that she still doesn't go swimming but will get the worst note for that lesson because she could...

How could someone seriously see the democratic values in danger in a country where things are handled like this?

That's the correct way to do it, although I think it shows that the judges even mentioned "religious leaders", why are their opinions relevant ?
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 20, 2013, 11:11:30 am
What annoys me the most is the generalizations going on in here:

The MUSLIMS are overtaking Europe.
The IMMIGRANTS are criminals.
The CHRISTIAN CULTURE is erased.

And that is just bullshit.
The majority of Muslims are just fine people. Bad people are in every group.
The majority of immigrants are just poor people trying to find a way to lead a "normal" life.
The Christian culture is mostly already gone cuz everyone is just thinking of their well-being only anyway.

So, spare me the nonsense about your truth. Your truth is just a bunch of stereotypes and generalizations. And about those statistics, if you even had just the minimal knowledge about actual statistical math, you would know that I could set up something that correlates the rise of women underwear thefts with the loss of potatoes to rain this year. Just because I can mathematical make something shiny and look solid, doesn't make it an actual useful fact.

And Xant disqualifies himself already with having the fat face of Timo Soini in his avatar before. Can't get more right wing populist than that... pathetic.
You forgot "chocolate chip cookieIIIIS!!!! KILL!! KILL!! KILL!!!!!"
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Molly on September 20, 2013, 11:13:38 am
That's the correct way to do it, although I think it shows that the judges even mentioned "religious leaders", why are their opinions relevant ?
I lack a proper word. Maybe religious authorities would be better.
What they ment was that there is no religious reason left to not go swimming when everyone that matters on the religious level tells her that those suits are fine. There is an "official" solution that she personally doesn't like. And that is her personal problem she has to deal with, not the school, the teacher or the other pupils.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Xant on September 20, 2013, 11:15:39 am
I lack a proper word. Maybe religious authorities would be better.
What they ment was that there is no religious reason left to not go swimming when everyone that matters on the religious level tells her that those suits are fine. There is an "official" solution that she personally doesn't like. And that is her personal problem she has to deal with, not the school, the teacher or the other pupils.
Way to completely miss the point.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Molly on September 20, 2013, 11:22:20 am
Way to completely miss the point.
Nope, you just didn't understand.

Germany guarantees every religion to enact their beliefs freely. That said, you have to belong to an acknowledged religious group to get that right.
Saying "The spaghetti monster forbids!" is not enough as long as the Spaghetti monster isn't an acknowledged religion in Germany.
The Islam is officially acknowledged, therefore the girl has rights, guaranteed by the German constitution.
Since the religion doesn't forbid her to go swimming when properly clothed with that mentioned swimming suit, she doesn't have the right to "not go swimming".
Kafein asked why religious authorities have a say in this. I answered him on point and now even explained it to you.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Xant on September 20, 2013, 11:34:44 am
Nope, you just didn't understand.

Germany guarantees every religion to enact their beliefs freely. That said, you have to belong to an acknowledged religious group to get that right.
Saying "The spaghetti monster forbids!" is not enough as long as the Spaghetti monster isn't an acknowledged religion in Germany.
The Islam is officially acknowledged, therefore the girl has rights, guaranteed by the German constitution.
Since the religion doesn't forbid her to go swimming when properly clothed with that mentioned swimming suit, she doesn't have the right to "not go swimming".
Kafein asked why religious authorities have a say in this. I answered him on point and now even explained it to you.
No, Kafein was making a point that religious authorities shouldn't have a say in it. Religion should be completely private and even mentioning that religious authority X agrees with policy Y is completely irrelevant and thus shouldn't be brought up.

Unsurprisingly, it's you who didn't understand.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Molly on September 20, 2013, 11:47:25 am
No, Kafein was making a point that religious authorities shouldn't have a say in it. Religion should be completely private and even mentioning that religious authority X agrees with policy Y is completely irrelevant and thus shouldn't be brought up.

Unsurprisingly, it's you who didn't understand.
No, you still don't get it.
The judges asked an expert to a certain case about his opinion. He stated his opinion as an expert and the judges decided. Works with everything in court like this all day, every day.

Just because you seem to see the need to make a difference between a ballistics guy stating his expert opinion about a gun and some Islam expert stating his opinion about religious rules doesn't make you correct.

inb4 Xant calling everyone stupid for not agreeing to his view of things he then calls facts/truths.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 20, 2013, 11:51:23 am
No, you still don't get it.
The judges asked an expert to a certain case about his opinion. He stated his opinion as an expert and the judges decided. Works with everything in court like this all day, every day.

Just because you seem to see the need to make a difference between a ballistics guy stating his expert opinion about a gun and some Islam expert stating his opinion about religious rules doesn't make you correct.

inb4 Xant calling everyone stupid for not agreeing to his view of things he then calls facts/truths.
How the fuck can you still not get it?
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Xant on September 20, 2013, 11:56:15 am
No, you still don't get it.
The judges asked an expert to a certain case about his opinion. He stated his opinion as an expert and the judges decided. Works with everything in court like this all day, every day.

Just because you seem to see the need to make a difference between a ballistics guy stating his expert opinion about a gun and some Islam expert stating his opinion about religious rules doesn't make you correct.

inb4 Xant calling everyone stupid for not agreeing to his view of things he then calls facts/truths.
Good almighty deity. Let me try this one more time. Kafein did not ask you a question that he wanted an answer to. It was a rhetorical question.

Quote
A rhetorical question is a figure of speech in the form of a question that is asked in order to make a point. The question is used as a rhetorical device, posed for the sake of encouraging its listener to consider a message or viewpoint.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Utrakil on September 20, 2013, 12:01:35 pm
Good almighty deity. Let me try this one more time. Kafein did not ask you a question that he wanted an answer to. It was a rhetorical question.
Yeaaaah
all religious matters should be judged by not asking anybody who knows the shit.
just listen to your inner fears and prejudices and it will be fine.
why do judges even listen to anyone they know everything because they are judges.

Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Xant on September 20, 2013, 12:02:59 pm
Yeaaaah
all religious matters should be judged by not asking anybody who knows the shit.
just listen to your inner fears and prejudices and it will be fine.
why do judges even listen to anyone they know everything because they are judges.
The straw man is strong in this one.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: cmp on September 20, 2013, 12:18:33 pm
Why are you guys even talking about immigration?
The thread is about a bunch of dumb nazi murderers who can't even spell that word and about their leaders who manipulate them for money and power.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 20, 2013, 12:19:20 pm
Yeaaaah
all religious matters should be judged by not asking anybody who knows the shit.
just listen to your inner fears and prejudices and it will be fine.
why do judges even listen to anyone they know everything because they are judges.
All religious matters should be judged by asking somebody who knows what they're talking about, unfortunately, the only fucking people who knows how they interpret are themselves, no fucking random douchebag can tell me how a book that has been written centuries ago (the bible or whatever) is meant to be interpreted, unless you wrote the shit you're no more of an expert on it than anyone else who has read it. It is beyond retarded and racist to go off and say "These religions are real religions, they're interpreted this way, and this is true because I asked some expert asshole.). If you look at your average Christian religion, and Mormonism, both of them tell you not to kill people, however, due to some random experts opinion Mormons are somehow less allowed to enter the army by their god, Catholicism is like the only Christian religion with an actual expert, and if you look at Catholicism there have even been a shitload of antipopes in previous centuries.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 20, 2013, 12:19:56 pm
Why are you guys even talking about immigration?
The thread is about a bunch of dumb nazi murderers who can't even spell that word and about their leaders who manipulate them for money and power.
Going off topic is fun
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Utrakil on September 20, 2013, 12:20:43 pm
The straw man is strong in this one.
It was meant to be ironic :oops:

But back to topic:
If the law guarantees the freedom of religion and the freedom to live according to your religion, who else should be asked about how to protect the religious requirements, bans and rules if not religious authorities.
So to me it is the only reasonable way to figure out the mentioned issue about the swimming courses to discuss it with muslim scolars and authorities.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Xant on September 20, 2013, 12:23:29 pm
Why are you guys even talking about immigration?
The thread is about a bunch of dumb nazi murderers who can't even spell that word and about their leaders who manipulate them for money and power.
Well, I mean, I would talk about dumb nazi murderers but I'm disqualified from taking part in that discussion because you edited your favorite politician, Timo Soini, on my avatar's face.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Molly on September 20, 2013, 12:26:14 pm
Good almighty deity. Let me try this one more time. Kafein did not ask you a question that he wanted an answer to. It was a rhetorical question.
A rhetorical question is used in most times to provoke a reaction to the point made. I reacted in explaining the situation in my country given by the constitutional laws and to his point about the questionable relevance of religious authorities and how they in fact are relevant.

Please, if you wanna do the smart guy, do it properly and not by trying to come at me all cheap.

Well, I mean, I would talk about dumb nazi murderers but I'm disqualified from taking part in that discussion because you edited your favorite politician, Timo Soini, on my avatar's face.
I didn't know it was cmps doing and therefore I apologize. Tho most of the time you certainly sound like a fan boy of fat Timo.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Xant on September 20, 2013, 12:27:25 pm
A rhetorical question is used in most times to provoke a reaction to the point made. I reacted in explaining the situation in my country given by the constitutional laws and to his point about the questionable relevance of religious authorities and how they in fact are relevant.

Please, if you wanna do the smart guy, do it properly and not by trying to come at me all cheap.
You still don't get it.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Molly on September 20, 2013, 12:28:46 pm
You still don't get it.
Maybe you re-read the full article about rhetorical questions and try again.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 20, 2013, 12:30:02 pm
If the pope one day says that Catholicism is all about eating human flesh and praying to a guy named Zlisch every 3 minutes, should you be able to call yourself a catholic and support an antipope or whatever without eating human flesh and praying to me every 3 minutes?
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Xant on September 20, 2013, 12:32:21 pm
Maybe you re-read the full article about rhetorical questions and try again.
Sigh.

Okay, let me go quarter-speed for you.

Kafein, essentially, says this: "religious authorities shouldn't (in an ideal situation) be consulted and religion should be a strictly private matter and not grant any privileges."

No one is questioning German law. I'm certain Kafein knows why the judge asked religious leaders about it, but the point is that it shouldn't happen. Right now it does, because (certain, specified) religions are given special privileges on account of being recognized by the state.

I'm not sure if I can go any more 1+1=2 for you.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 20, 2013, 12:34:34 pm
Sigh.

Okay, let me go quarter-speed for you.

Kafein, essentially, says this: "religious authorities shouldn't (in an ideal situation) be consulted and religion should be a strictly private matter and not grant any privileges."

No one is questioning German law. I'm certain Kafein knows why the judge asked religious leaders about it, but the point is that it shouldn't happen. Right now it does, because (certain, specified) religions are given special privileges on account of being recognized by the state.

I'm not sure if I can go any more 1+1=2 for you.
This is when the point still flies five miles over benkeis head and he starts talking about "Just because you seem to see the need to make a difference between a ballistics guy stating his expert opinion about a gun and some Islam expert stating his opinion about religious rules doesn't make you correct."
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Utrakil on September 20, 2013, 12:38:45 pm
All religious matters should be judged by asking somebody who knows what they're talking about, unfortunately, the only fucking people who knows how they interpret are themselves, no fucking random douchebag can tell me how a book that has been written centuries ago (the bible or whatever) is meant to be interpreted, unless you wrote the shit you're no more of an expert on it than anyone else who has read it. It is beyond retarded and racist to go off and say "These religions are real religions, they're interpreted this way, and this is true because I asked some expert asshole.). If you look at your average Christian religion, and Mormonism, both of them tell you not to kill people, however, due to some random experts opinion Mormons are somehow less allowed to enter the army by their god, Catholicism is like the only Christian religion with an actual expert, and if you look at Catholicism there have even been a shitload of antipopes in previous centuries.
Are you really that simple??
Have you ever considered aquiring knowledge about the circumstances under which something was written could enlighten the written content? Don't you think it can help your understanding of a text if you possibly understand the original language with some words transporting more than one meaning?
Don' you think knowing the laws and habits of the time something was written could explain certain acts or omissions described in a book?
If so you should work on your education.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Molly on September 20, 2013, 12:45:59 pm
Sigh.

Okay, let me go quarter-speed for you.

Kafein, essentially, says this: "religious authorities shouldn't (in an ideal situation) be consulted and religion should be a strictly private matter and not grant any privileges."

No one is questioning German law. I'm certain Kafein knows why the judge asked religious leaders about it, but the point is that it shouldn't happen. Right now it does, because (certain, specified) religions are given special privileges on account of being recognized by the state.

I'm not sure if I can go any more 1+1=2 for you.
Oww for fucks sake...

Nah, not gonna keep going like this. Alright, I am stupid, you are smart. Let's settle on this. I am unable to discuss, you're the king of the hill. Same goes for Zlisch, of course.

Have a nice day.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Kafein on September 20, 2013, 02:09:42 pm
benkei : I don't care about German law. What I was saying is, there shouldn't be any recognised religion. Religion is a private matter that neither should be invaded by state matters (freedom of spirituality) nor invade state matters itself (state-religion separation). What I'm saying is, it is wrong and un-secular for a state to recognise individual religions and give any kind of authority in matters that regard the state and the state only (case in point, the law). Individuals can consider themselves part of a religious group and be open about it if they want just like their sexual orientation (as long as it is not proselytism). They can follow religious "laws" if they want to and be "judged" by their religious authorities if they want to as long as everything is actually legal by state laws. It shouldn't be the responsibility of the state to ensure people affiliated with a given religion don't eat X, just because that religion has many followers. Religious neutrality is not giving concessions based on the size of arbitrary religious groups, it is ignoring religion altogether. People having "problems" just because their religion is forbidding/forcing them to do illegal things have only themselves to blame.


It was meant to be ironic :oops:

But back to topic:
If the law guarantees the freedom of religion and the freedom to live according to your religion, who else should be asked about how to protect the religious requirements, bans and rules if not religious authorities.

This is precisely what I'm talking about when I say that's not how freedom of religion works. You, as an individual, are allowed to have any spiritual belief you like. You can invent imaginary do's and don'ts to make your life harder for yourself if you like. However You cannot force others to do anything based on those rules you have chosen for yourself. This is a private and strictly individual matter. If those personal rules makes you do things that are outright illegal (e.g. the lamb sacrifice), you are commiting a crime, and you have only yourself to blame. You alone have decided to be religious, precisely because you have the freedom to choose. As an atheist I can also sacrifice a lamb, and just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean I shouldn't be treated the exact same way. We are both humans and equal in rights, that is all that should matter.


Just to show how ridiculous the whole idea of "reasonable exceptions" goes, what if tomorrow the whole atheist population pushed for say, banning paper ? We could all pretend our beliefs prevent us from using paper.


edit : just spotted a missing "not"
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Gnjus on September 20, 2013, 02:13:43 pm
Oww for fucks sake...

Nah, not gonna keep going like this. Alright, I am stupid, you are smart. Let's settle on this. I am unable to discuss, you're the king of the hill. Same goes for Zlisch, of course.

Have a nice day.


Game over. Xant wins:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Xant on September 20, 2013, 02:26:41 pm
snip
One of the most ridiculous things about the whole affair is precisely the fact that concessions are made based on the size of a religion. Why is a Spaghetti Monsterist's religion less important than a Christian's? It's utterly hypocritical. Basically, as long as you have enough people to cause a ruckus, you get "religious" concessions.

Or an example from Finland: certain religious groups are exempted from military service, while others have to go. The amount of questions that raises...
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 20, 2013, 02:47:10 pm
Or an example from Finland: certain religious groups are exempted from military service, while others have to go. The amount of questions that raises...
...especially as most officially recognized religions aren't really pro killing.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Kafein on September 20, 2013, 03:09:52 pm
Wait...

How do they even check for frauds, people pretending they are from that religious group just to not do their service ?
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Xant on September 20, 2013, 03:50:08 pm
There's some requirement, like having been a member of that church for two years prior to your service, and/or having attended the religious ceremonies dutifully, for which you need to be vouched for by the priest. Something along those lines, I don't remember the exact details.

But again, makes no sense that a religion lets you skate but personal ideologies (if you are sane enough to call them that instead of religion) don't.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Lt_Anders on September 20, 2013, 04:20:13 pm
...especially as most officially recognized religions aren't really pro killing.

Actually, Christianity is a NO MURDER religion. But in a war, you fight to your heart's content. IE, fight in self defence, and if the state asks you to fight for them, you do it. You just do not commit murder(what we would define it in legal definition). While a war is killing, most won't call a soldier killing another as murder(legal or otherwise), unless you kill a surrendered enemy. Of course, I'm not 100% sure on this, cause I'm no expert :wink:, but these guys sure seem like it. (http://www.gotquestions.org/military-Christian.html)

Islam technically promotes violence (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm) against members of opposite religions, but like anything, that is phrases that can be bastardized by those who wish to gain something by promoting it. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_violence)

And then there's other religions, of such a large amount that they can't be classified. But in context, we are only looking at these 2 for purposes of discussion.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Christo on September 20, 2013, 04:24:26 pm
I actually had a pretty crazy dream a few days ago, a muslim-christian conflict, started with muslims wreaking havoc on the streets of Rome and especially the Vatican.

Yeah, weird.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Gnjus on September 20, 2013, 04:46:49 pm
I actually had a pretty crazy dream a few days ago, a muslim-christian conflict, started with muslims wreaking havoc on the streets of Rome and especially the Vatican.

Yeah, weird.


At least you don't dream about chopping the head of your best friend from behind while he is sitting on a tree stump.  :wink:
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Christo on September 20, 2013, 04:51:08 pm
dafuq
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: pingpong on September 20, 2013, 05:03:27 pm

At least you don't dream about chopping the head of your best friend from behind while he is sitting on a tree stump.  :wink:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Xant on September 20, 2013, 05:23:12 pm
Actually, Christianity is a NO MURDER religion. But in a war, you fight to your heart's content. IE, fight in self defence, and if the state asks you to fight for them, you do it. You just do not commit murder(what we would define it in legal definition). While a war is killing, most won't call a soldier killing another as murder(legal or otherwise), unless you kill a surrendered enemy. Of course, I'm not 100% sure on this, cause I'm no expert :wink:, but these guys sure seem like it. (http://www.gotquestions.org/military-Christian.html)

Islam technically promotes violence (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm) against members of opposite religions, but like anything, that is phrases that can be bastardized by those who wish to gain something by promoting it. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_violence)

And then there's other religions, of such a large amount that they can't be classified. But in context, we are only looking at these 2 for purposes of discussion.
Oh yeah, Christianity, the NO MURDER religion.

2 Chronicles 15:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 That whosoever would not seek the Lord God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

Exodus 31:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

If you ask God, he'll force heathens to be your slaves and help you "dash them in pieces." 2:8-9
Kiss the Son or God will get angry and might have to kill you. 2:12
God has smitten his "enemies upon the cheek bone" and has "broken the teeth of the ungodly." 3:7
Christians often say that one should love the sinner but hate the sin. Perhaps, but God hates sinners and plans to destroy them. 5:5-6
God has prepared deadly weapons (swords, bows, etc.) and plans to use them. 7:11-13
If you pray to God, he will kill your enemies for you. 9:3-6
God will rain fire and brimstone on "wicked" folks. 11:6
The God of peace teaches us how to kill our neighbors in war. 18:34
God helps believers kill and enslave their enemies. 18:40-43
If you make God angry, he'll burn you and your children to death. 21:9-10
God will shoot his adversaries in the back with his arrows. 21:12
A sweet prayer for the destruction of one's enemies: Let their way be dark and slippery: and let the angel of the LORD persecute them.... Let destruction come upon him at unawares." 35:6,8
God laughs at those that he will later torment. 37:13
If you forget God, God will tear you into pieces. 50:22
If you don't trust in God, he'll kill you and while you're dying the "righteous" will laugh at you. 52:5-7
Referring to his enemies, the psalmist says: "Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell." 55:15
The psalmist devoutly prays: "Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth ... let them be cut in pieces." 58:6-7
"Let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun."
A prayer that your enemies will die like an aborted fetus. 58:8
"The righteous" will rejoice when he sees "the wicked" being dismembered by God. He'll even get a chance to wash his feet in their blood. Now that's entertainment! 58:10
The psalmist asks God to kill all "the heathen" and not show them any mercy. 59:5
God will laugh at the heathen as he kills them. 59:8

.... And on and on and on.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/cr_list.html
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/cr_list.html
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/cr_list.html
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/lev/cr_list.html
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/num/cr_list.html
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/cr_list.html

... And about 10 more of these.

The hypocrisy of linking to an anti-Islam webpage with quotes while telling us how Christianity is a "NO MURDER religion" is quite amazing.

http://bibviz.com/
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Gnjus on September 20, 2013, 06:26:12 pm
dafuq

(click to show/hide)



No worries, I was the one who's head was supposed to be rolling.  :wink:
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Lt_Anders on September 20, 2013, 07:31:09 pm
snip

Hey, bub, rather than responding to you, know, my first sentence, why not, IDK, READ all three links? I'm fairly sure that I linked two sides of the coin for the Islamic topic.

But, you don't care, you'd rather show off how easy it is for you to feel superior on the internet by sounding cool linking to shit that's not even your own works. Mine are just opinions, and I know I don't know shit about the bible. Oh well, go on, being the superior self-righteous asshole you like to pretend to be. I mean, I've already rewarded you by actually even bothering to respond to your post.

EDIT: As far as quoting your no murder point (http://www.gotquestions.org/you-shall-not-murder.html), To a degree, the old testament was in effect only for children of Isreal, and not ment to be something intended as a law. I'm no expert, but, like I said, this site does a good job of being an expert on this. (http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-law.html)

Edit2: that site's interesting. Can probably refute some points, but it's pretty good at citing multiple scripture points about subjects. Things like Sabbath day and what not, it gives a close enough biblical account. Pretty interesting reads.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Xant on September 20, 2013, 08:34:48 pm
But, you don't care, you'd rather show off how easy it is for you to feel superior on the internet by sounding cool linking to shit that's not even your own works.
Yes, admittedly, the Bible is not my own work.

Quote
The key to understanding this issue is knowing that the Old Testament law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians. Some of the laws were to reveal to the Israelites how to obey and please God.
From your link. You think this makes it any better? "Oh, we just have this bloodthirsty, genocidal, baby-killing god that we revere but he doesn't necessarily force us to do all of that, it's just guidelines on how to please him!
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: darmaster on September 20, 2013, 08:43:38 pm
Stop going off topic; golden dOwn is more interesting than religion
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: zagibu on September 20, 2013, 10:33:11 pm
Do you know why it's called Golden Dawn? Because their members usually awake with piss-encrusted eyes that make everything seem golden in the morning.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Lt_Anders on September 21, 2013, 04:40:25 am
But, doesn't the Golden dawn want to wipe out the Line of Septims and worship Mehrunes Dagon?
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Clockworkkiller on September 21, 2013, 05:18:29 am
I had a dream where I watch 24 young naked women raped then put in a furnace and burned alive... Slowly

More like a fucking nightmare, couldn't sleep for the rest of the night
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Lord_Bernie_of_Voodoo on September 21, 2013, 06:42:39 am
Why are you guys even talking about immigration?
The thread is about a bunch of dumb nazi murderers who can't even spell that word and about their leaders who manipulate them for money and power.

My eyes are literally bleeding from this comment.

Also, why do people even bother discussing religious legitimacy? Really, no view is "correct" - no one knows how to the world was formed and everyone has their spiritual needs fulfilled differently.

I just want to see more people say that fascists are actually a major problem in today's Europe.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Xant on September 21, 2013, 07:27:28 am

Also, why do people even bother discussing religious legitimacy? Really, no view is "correct"
Some views are just less wrong.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Berserkadin on September 21, 2013, 01:02:12 pm
Some views are just less wrong retarded.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Xant on September 21, 2013, 05:45:55 pm
Honestly, yes. If religions were invented now, you'd be classified as mentally ill for buying into them. Mental hospitals are full of people who see, hear and believe things that don't exist.

The least you could do is worship a deity that isn't written so inconsistently and in such bad prose. Silmarillion is more believable than any mainstream religion and better written to boot. And the deities aren't as cruel as that of the mainstream religions' is.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Lars on September 21, 2013, 06:57:08 pm
One time i decided(tried)  to stop using blasphemy-insulting god etc...  because it doesn't make sense, since i don't believe in the nailed man, his god father, the angels, the holy spirit and the rest.
 But i failed, i guess that saying blasphemy it's part of me, even if i didn't pronounce the words, i still thought them, so i concluded that the sun is my "god" : i insult it reguralry cuz it's a bastard, u need it obviously, or you would freeze to death(there would be no life on earth), but at the same time it can  burn your skin, cause cancer, blind you etcc...  can be too hot, cause drought, dryness etcc...



Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Lt_Anders on September 21, 2013, 06:57:51 pm
Honestly, yes. If religions were invented now, you'd be classified as mentally ill for buying into them. Mental hospitals are full of people who see, hear and believe things that don't exist.

The least you could do is worship a deity that isn't written so inconsistently and in such bad prose. Silmarillion is more believable than any mainstream religion and better written to boot. And the deities aren't as cruel as that of the mainstream religions' is.

That's a sad Generalization. Go research Wiggans. I do believe that's the term.

Many religions aren't like that. Most are perverted into things like that because of either their followers or their opponents spinning things in a bad light(such as how islam is treated in the West, compared to Muslim interpration).

Then of course Political Parties, like these Golden Dawn guys(Like, wtf? To much oblivion someone...), are almost like a religion themselves. As those who aren't part of the "Party" Are held in contempt for no reason other than difference of belief. It's why when in times of duress(Currently in America) you have a split along "Party lines" and neither side wants to do ANYTHING, because it's the "other" party. Causes fractionality, much like a religion.

Which I find funny. We've replaced our Religious intolerance with Political and Social Intolerance instead. We've changed from a belief in higher beings to beliefs in certain people/ideas.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Lars on September 21, 2013, 07:02:28 pm
"If I had to choose a religion, the sun as the universal giver of life would be my god."
Napoleon Bonaparte


Brilliant, but i will keep insulting "god"
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Xant on September 21, 2013, 07:35:36 pm
That's a sad Generalization. Go research Wiggans. I do believe that's the term.
Uh, what do Wiccans have to do with anything?

We've changed from a belief in higher beings to beliefs in certain people/ideas.
You mean to say we've changed our beliefs in nonexistent beings to beliefs in things that actually exist and have the power to change the state of the world? Well, ehm, yes...
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Tomas_Miles_again on September 21, 2013, 08:41:52 pm
so i concluded that the sun is my "god"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFca32_7YUU
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Kafein on September 21, 2013, 10:55:06 pm
You mean to say we've changed our beliefs in nonexistent beings to beliefs in things that actually exist and have the power to change the state of the world? Well, ehm, yes...

Believing that a simple ideology is going to "save the world" is utopist at best.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Xant on September 21, 2013, 11:23:03 pm
Believing that a simple ideology is going to "save the world" is utopist at best.
Of course it is, (the ideology wouldn't be simple!) and there are ideologies that are just as retarded as religions, but at least they lack some of the other deplorable characteristics of religion.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Lt_Anders on September 22, 2013, 05:07:48 am
Of course it is, (the ideology wouldn't be simple!) and there are ideologies that are just as retarded as religions, but at least they lack some of the other deplorable characteristics of religion.

I don't know. Look at these golden dawn fools. That's clearly an ideology and nearly as bad as any religious one.

There is no "clean" ideology. At our hearts, humans are naturally close-minded in some regard(Intolerant) or otherwise violent. We can't escape it, but in most instances, we mitigate it with our ability to reason, rather than just acting on it.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Xant on September 22, 2013, 05:12:31 am
I don't know. Look at these golden dawn fools. That's clearly an ideology and nearly as bad as any religious one.

There is no "clean" ideology. At our hearts, humans are naturally close-minded in some regard(Intolerant) or otherwise violent. We can't escape it, but in most instances, we mitigate it with our ability to reason, rather than just acting on it.
As far as ideologies go, Golden Dawn is still on the mild end of the spectrum.

What is a "clean" ideology? How are humans naturally inescapably close-minded and what does that have to do with violence? "Or otherwise" seems to suggest that if you aren't close-minded, you're "otherwise violent." So you can be open-minded but in return must be violent? Is violence always bad?
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: EponiCo on September 22, 2013, 01:48:39 pm
benkei : I don't care about German law. What I was saying is, there shouldn't be any recognised religion. Religion is a private matter that neither should be invaded by state matters (freedom of spirituality) nor invade state matters itself (state-religion separation). What I'm saying is, it is wrong and un-secular for a state to recognise individual religions and give any kind of authority in matters that regard the state and the state only (case in point, the law). Individuals can consider themselves part of a religious group and be open about it if they want just like their sexual orientation (as long as it is not proselytism). They can follow religious "laws" if they want to and be "judged" by their religious authorities if they want to as long as everything is actually legal by state laws. It shouldn't be the responsibility of the state to ensure people affiliated with a given religion don't eat X, just because that religion has many followers. Religious neutrality is not giving concessions based on the size of arbitrary religious groups, it is ignoring religion altogether. People having "problems" just because their religion is forbidding/forcing them to do illegal things have only themselves to blame.


This is precisely what I'm talking about when I say that's not how freedom of religion works. You, as an individual, are allowed to have any spiritual belief you like. You can invent imaginary do's and don'ts to make your life harder for yourself if you like. However You cannot force others to do anything based on those rules you have chosen for yourself. This is a private and strictly individual matter. If those personal rules makes you do things that are outright illegal (e.g. the lamb sacrifice), you are commiting a crime, and you have only yourself to blame. You alone have decided to be religious, precisely because you have the freedom to choose. As an atheist I can also sacrifice a lamb, and just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean I shouldn't be treated the exact same way. We are both humans and equal in rights, that is all that should matter.


Just to show how ridiculous the whole idea of "reasonable exceptions" goes, what if tomorrow the whole atheist population pushed for say, banning paper ? We could all pretend our beliefs prevent us from using paper.


edit : just spotted a missing "not"

To clarify: This is not about the state passing laws, enforcing religious rules or allowing criminality because it's ok in the criminals religion. This is simply about the question how existing law (which is perfectly fair and neutral imo) is applicated.
It is allowed to excuse yourself from compulsory service if that entails doing things which are against your convictions. For example the state doesn't force vegans to eat meat. It also doesn't force Jews to eat non-kosher meat (freedom of spirituality). So both groups can excuse themselves from cooking lessons where meat is made. In that case it was about a Muslim wanting to be excused from swimming because it was against her religion. They were asking religious authorities in the context of whether that was actually the case and if they should accept the excuse. This is all that is about.
If you'd want to avoid that in the first place and reject the reasons outright as Muslim/religious, that'd be you trying to force a religion/value set on the state, unless you are not accepting any excuses. Which would probably entail tying a vegetarian to a chair and force feed him meat. Sounds terribly funny, but I think I'll still stick with the more liberal way (hell, since this is about swimming, I'd actually consider "I just don't feel like it" a valid excuse to be honest - how far it goes plays a big role also, obviously, good luck trying to fund a religion which is against taxes).

In any case this is far removed from any actual integration problems, since real problem kids and their parents do not care the slightest about failing school.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Lt_Anders on September 22, 2013, 05:38:34 pm
As far as ideologies go, Golden Dawn is still on the mild end of the spectrum.

What is a "clean" ideology? How are humans naturally inescapably close-minded and what does that have to do with violence? "Or otherwise" seems to suggest that if you aren't close-minded, you're "otherwise violent." So you can be open-minded but in return must be violent? Is violence always bad?

Point was, we often have natural instincts/inclinations to act certain ways. In most instances, we don't act on them because we can reason, either with ourselves, or others, why not to do that.(In addition to societies/cultures laws also helping in this regard) But, when you get people who manipulate others(IE Example in this thread) for their own gain(Political/Social in this case) that's where Politics/Ideology starts to equal Religious "Fanaticism."

And Violence is inherent to humans. Bad things sell, simple as that. We like violent and grim movies and games, dark stories, even physical and damaging sports. It's not Colosseum bad(IE real death/Blood and animals, etc) but it's as close as we get with our enlightened perspective.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Kafein on September 22, 2013, 05:51:27 pm
To clarify: This is not about the state passing laws, enforcing religious rules or allowing criminality because it's ok in the criminals religion. This is simply about the question how existing law (which is perfectly fair and neutral imo) is applicated.
It is allowed to excuse yourself from compulsory service if that entails doing things which are against your convictions. For example the state doesn't force vegans to eat meat. It also doesn't force Jews to eat non-kosher meat (freedom of spirituality). So both groups can excuse themselves from cooking lessons where meat is made. In that case it was about a Muslim wanting to be excused from swimming because it was against her religion. They were asking religious authorities in the context of whether that was actually the case and if they should accept the excuse. This is all that is about.
If you'd want to avoid that in the first place and reject the reasons outright as Muslim/religious, that'd be you trying to force a religion/value set on the state, unless you are not accepting any excuses. Which would probably entail tying a vegetarian to a chair and force feed him meat. Sounds terribly funny, but I think I'll still stick with the more liberal way (hell, since this is about swimming, I'd actually consider "I just don't feel like it" a valid excuse to be honest - how far it goes plays a big role also, obviously, good luck trying to fund a religion which is against taxes).

In any case this is far removed from any actual integration problems, since real problem kids and their parents do not care the slightest about failing school.

Your vegan analogy isn't a good analogy. Arguing you shouldn't fail swimming classes because your religion doesn't allow you to swim is not the same as not swimming because your religion doesn't allow you to swim. Case in point, the latter is perfectly fine. But if you don't attend swimming classes, you don't learn to swim. No matter the reasons, the end result is that you didn't learn to swim, and that means you fail the class. The vegan analogy equivalent would be arguing that you should be able to become a non-vegan gastronomy critique without eating meat.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Xant on September 22, 2013, 06:02:18 pm
Point was, we often have natural instincts/inclinations to act certain ways. In most instances, we don't act on them because we can reason, either with ourselves, or others, why not to do that.(In addition to societies/cultures laws also helping in this regard) But, when you get people who manipulate others(IE Example in this thread) for their own gain(Political/Social in this case) that's where Politics/Ideology starts to equal Religious "Fanaticism."

And Violence is inherent to humans. Bad things sell, simple as that. We like violent and grim movies and games, dark stories, even physical and damaging sports. It's not Colosseum bad(IE real death/Blood and animals, etc) but it's as close as we get with our enlightened perspective.
That doesn't answer any of my questions.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Lt_Anders on September 22, 2013, 08:44:02 pm
That doesn't answer any of my questions.

That doesn't disprove my point.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Xant on September 22, 2013, 08:52:55 pm
That doesn't disprove my point.
No, but it kills the discussion.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Lt_Anders on September 22, 2013, 08:56:51 pm
No, but it kills the discussion.

It's discussion of Golden Dawn. I can really go there if you want.

I mean, Tiber Septim didn't like them at all. They cause far to much oblivion where they are 8-)
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: EponiCo on September 23, 2013, 12:55:49 am
Your vegan analogy isn't a good analogy. Arguing you shouldn't fail swimming classes because your religion doesn't allow you to swim is not the same as not swimming because your religion doesn't allow you to swim. Case in point, the latter is perfectly fine. But if you don't attend swimming classes, you don't learn to swim. No matter the reasons, the end result is that you didn't learn to swim, and that means you fail the class. The vegan analogy equivalent would be arguing that you should be able to become a non-vegan gastronomy critique without eating meat.

That wasn't an analogy, that was an example where the same principle is applicable. However it appears I was wrong, you are also not excused from cooking meat as a vegan.
And I don't know if that is so easy. If it were courses you'd take to get a certificate it's perfectly trivial that not attending the test is automatic failure. However those are a part of the compulsory school and failing a single class in Germany means (or at least used to mean) you cannot advance, and it might (*) be a matter of swimming or never graduating. Which is pretty nasty when you think about it. You cannot become a banker because you cannot swim. For me this really raises the question why those classes are really necessary for anyone (well, at least for cooking it would be really easy to find a school that doesn't do it). One could easily have children pick those courses and only have core classes counting.

(*) I have no idea to be honest as the German school system is very complicated.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Xant on September 23, 2013, 01:33:28 am
I don't know, not being able to go through school if you're religious might be a welcome encouragement to drop your silly beliefs. The faster the whole world updates their beliefs to 21st century, the better for humanity. One way to achieve that is to actively start shunning religious people.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Swaggart on September 28, 2013, 05:00:09 pm
Looks like a bunch of Golden Dawn party members got arrested. Guess we won't be seeing Panos for a while.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Utrakil on September 28, 2013, 05:24:28 pm
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/28/greek-police-golden-dawn-leader-nikolaos-michaloliakos (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/28/greek-police-golden-dawn-leader-nikolaos-michaloliakos)
some news
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Christo on September 28, 2013, 05:25:29 pm
Oh look, criminals arresting criminals.

Nice.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Kafein on September 28, 2013, 09:00:30 pm
That might be an intelligent move from the government if they actually cut the head, and some other head doesn't grow. Quite unfortunate they feel forced to act.
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Xant on September 29, 2013, 04:36:15 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


One picture is worth a thousand words
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Molly on September 29, 2013, 09:37:17 pm
It made me smile :D
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Kafein on September 29, 2013, 10:13:27 pm
This guy has the easiest face to caricature
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Sir_Hans on September 30, 2013, 07:03:32 am
Is he carrying a purse?  :shock:
Title: Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
Post by: Molly on September 30, 2013, 08:26:39 am
This guy has the easiest face to caricature
Those eyebrows :D