Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.

[Kafein]

benkei : I don't care about German law. What I was saying is, there shouldn't be any recognised religion. Religion is a private matter that neither should be invaded by state matters (freedom of spirituality) nor invade state matters itself (state-religion separation). What I'm saying is, it is wrong and un-secular for a state to recognise individual religions and give any kind of authority in matters that regard the state and the state only (case in point, the law). Individuals can consider themselves part of a religious group and be open about it if they want just like their sexual orientation (as long as it is not proselytism). They can follow religious "laws" if they want to and be "judged" by their religious authorities if they want to as long as everything is actually legal by state laws. It shouldn't be the responsibility of the state to ensure people affiliated with a given religion don't eat X, just because that religion has many followers. Religious neutrality is not giving concessions based on the size of arbitrary religious groups, it is ignoring religion altogether. People having "problems" just because their religion is forbidding/forcing them to do illegal things have only themselves to blame.

It was meant to be ironic

But back to topic:
If the law guarantees the freedom of religion and the freedom to live according to your religion, who else should be asked about how to protect the religious requirements, bans and rules if not religious authorities.

This is precisely what I'm talking about when I say that's not how freedom of religion works. You, as an individual, are allowed to have any spiritual belief you like. You can invent imaginary do's and don'ts to make your life harder for yourself if you like. However You cannot force others to do anything based on those rules you have chosen for yourself. This is a private and strictly individual matter. If those personal rules makes you do things that are outright illegal (e.g. the lamb sacrifice), you are commiting a crime, and you have only yourself to blame. You alone have decided to be religious, precisely because you have the freedom to choose. As an atheist I can also sacrifice a lamb, and just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean I shouldn't be treated the exact same way. We are both humans and equal in rights, that is all that should matter.


Just to show how ridiculous the whole idea of "reasonable exceptions" goes, what if tomorrow the whole atheist population pushed for say, banning paper ? We could all pretend our beliefs prevent us from using paper.


edit : just spotted a missing "not"

[Gnjus]

Oww for fucks sake...

Nah, not gonna keep going like this. Alright, I am stupid, you are smart. Let's settle on this. I am unable to discuss, you're the king of the hill. Same goes for Zlisch, of course.

Have a nice day.

Game over. Xant wins:

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[Xant]

snip

One of the most ridiculous things about the whole affair is precisely the fact that concessions are made based on the size of a religion. Why is a Spaghetti Monsterist's religion less important than a Christian's? It's utterly hypocritical. Basically, as long as you have enough people to cause a ruckus, you get "religious" concessions.

Or an example from Finland: certain religious groups are exempted from military service, while others have to go. The amount of questions that raises...

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

Or an example from Finland: certain religious groups are exempted from military service, while others have to go. The amount of questions that raises...

...especially as most officially recognized religions aren't really pro killing.

[Kafein]

Wait...

How do they even check for frauds, people pretending they are from that religious group just to not do their service ?

[Xant]

There's some requirement, like having been a member of that church for two years prior to your service, and/or having attended the religious ceremonies dutifully, for which you need to be vouched for by the priest. Something along those lines, I don't remember the exact details.

But again, makes no sense that a religion lets you skate but personal ideologies (if you are sane enough to call them that instead of religion) don't.

[Lt_Anders]

...especially as most officially recognized religions aren't really pro killing.

Actually, Christianity is a NO MURDER religion. But in a war, you fight to your heart's content. IE, fight in self defence, and if the state asks you to fight for them, you do it. You just do not commit murder(what we would define it in legal definition). While a war is killing, most won't call a soldier killing another as murder(legal or otherwise), unless you kill a surrendered enemy. Of course, I'm not 100% sure on this, cause I'm no expert , but these guys sure seem like it.

Islam technically promotes violence against members of opposite religions, but like anything, that is phrases that can be bastardized by those who wish to gain something by promoting it.

And then there's other religions, of such a large amount that they can't be classified. But in context, we are only looking at these 2 for purposes of discussion.

[Christo]

I actually had a pretty crazy dream a few days ago, a muslim-christian conflict, started with muslims wreaking havoc on the streets of Rome and especially the Vatican.

Yeah, weird.

[Gnjus]

I actually had a pretty crazy dream a few days ago, a muslim-christian conflict, started with muslims wreaking havoc on the streets of Rome and especially the Vatican.

Yeah, weird.

At least you don't dream about chopping the head of your best friend from behind while he is sitting on a tree stump. 

[Christo]

dafuq

[pingpong]

At least you don't dream about chopping the head of your best friend from behind while he is sitting on a tree stump. 

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[Xant]

Actually, Christianity is a NO MURDER religion. But in a war, you fight to your heart's content. IE, fight in self defence, and if the state asks you to fight for them, you do it. You just do not commit murder(what we would define it in legal definition). While a war is killing, most won't call a soldier killing another as murder(legal or otherwise), unless you kill a surrendered enemy. Of course, I'm not 100% sure on this, cause I'm no expert , but these guys sure seem like it.

Islam technically promotes violence against members of opposite religions, but like anything, that is phrases that can be bastardized by those who wish to gain something by promoting it.

And then there's other religions, of such a large amount that they can't be classified. But in context, we are only looking at these 2 for purposes of discussion.

Oh yeah, Christianity, the NO MURDER religion.

2 Chronicles 15:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 That whosoever would not seek the Lord God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

Exodus 31:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

If you ask God, he'll force heathens to be your slaves and help you "dash them in pieces." 2:8-9
Kiss the Son or God will get angry and might have to kill you. 2:12
God has smitten his "enemies upon the cheek bone" and has "broken the teeth of the ungodly." 3:7
Christians often say that one should love the sinner but hate the sin. Perhaps, but God hates sinners and plans to destroy them. 5:5-6
God has prepared deadly weapons (swords, bows, etc.) and plans to use them. 7:11-13
If you pray to God, he will kill your enemies for you. 9:3-6
God will rain fire and brimstone on "wicked" folks. 11:6
The God of peace teaches us how to kill our neighbors in war. 18:34
God helps believers kill and enslave their enemies. 18:40-43
If you make God angry, he'll burn you and your children to death. 21:9-10
God will shoot his adversaries in the back with his arrows. 21:12
A sweet prayer for the destruction of one's enemies: Let their way be dark and slippery: and let the angel of the LORD persecute them.... Let destruction come upon him at unawares." 35:6,8
God laughs at those that he will later torment. 37:13
If you forget God, God will tear you into pieces. 50:22
If you don't trust in God, he'll kill you and while you're dying the "righteous" will laugh at you. 52:5-7
Referring to his enemies, the psalmist says: "Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell." 55:15
The psalmist devoutly prays: "Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth ... let them be cut in pieces." 58:6-7
"Let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun."
A prayer that your enemies will die like an aborted fetus. 58:8
"The righteous" will rejoice when he sees "the wicked" being dismembered by God. He'll even get a chance to wash his feet in their blood. Now that's entertainment! 58:10
The psalmist asks God to kill all "the heathen" and not show them any mercy. 59:5
God will laugh at the heathen as he kills them. 59:8

.... And on and on and on.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/cr_list.html
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/cr_list.html
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/cr_list.html
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/lev/cr_list.html
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/num/cr_list.html
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/cr_list.html

... And about 10 more of these.

The hypocrisy of linking to an anti-Islam webpage with quotes while telling us how Christianity is a "NO MURDER religion" is quite amazing.

http://bibviz.com/

[Gnjus]

dafuq

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No worries, I was the one who's head was supposed to be rolling. 

[Lt_Anders]

snip

Hey, bub, rather than responding to you, know, my first sentence, why not, IDK, READ all three links? I'm fairly sure that I linked two sides of the coin for the Islamic topic.

But, you don't care, you'd rather show off how easy it is for you to feel superior on the internet by sounding cool linking to shit that's not even your own works. Mine are just opinions, and I know I don't know shit about the bible. Oh well, go on, being the superior self-righteous asshole you like to pretend to be. I mean, I've already rewarded you by actually even bothering to respond to your post.

EDIT: As far as quoting your no murder point, To a degree, the old testament was in effect only for children of Isreal, and not ment to be something intended as a law. I'm no expert, but, like I said, this site does a good job of being an expert on this.

Edit2: that site's interesting. Can probably refute some points, but it's pretty good at citing multiple scripture points about subjects. Things like Sabbath day and what not, it gives a close enough biblical account. Pretty interesting reads.

[Xant]

But, you don't care, you'd rather show off how easy it is for you to feel superior on the internet by sounding cool linking to shit that's not even your own works.

Yes, admittedly, the Bible is not my own work.

The key to understanding this issue is knowing that the Old Testament law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians. Some of the laws were to reveal to the Israelites how to obey and please God.

From your link. You think this makes it any better? "Oh, we just have this bloodthirsty, genocidal, baby-killing god that we revere but he doesn't necessarily force us to do all of that, it's just guidelines on how to please him!