Author Topic: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.  (Read 6005 times)

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Offline Lt_Anders

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Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
« Reply #105 on: September 22, 2013, 05:07:48 am »
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Of course it is, (the ideology wouldn't be simple!) and there are ideologies that are just as retarded as religions, but at least they lack some of the other deplorable characteristics of religion.

I don't know. Look at these golden dawn fools. That's clearly an ideology and nearly as bad as any religious one.

There is no "clean" ideology. At our hearts, humans are naturally close-minded in some regard(Intolerant) or otherwise violent. We can't escape it, but in most instances, we mitigate it with our ability to reason, rather than just acting on it.
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Offline Xant

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Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
« Reply #106 on: September 22, 2013, 05:12:31 am »
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I don't know. Look at these golden dawn fools. That's clearly an ideology and nearly as bad as any religious one.

There is no "clean" ideology. At our hearts, humans are naturally close-minded in some regard(Intolerant) or otherwise violent. We can't escape it, but in most instances, we mitigate it with our ability to reason, rather than just acting on it.
As far as ideologies go, Golden Dawn is still on the mild end of the spectrum.

What is a "clean" ideology? How are humans naturally inescapably close-minded and what does that have to do with violence? "Or otherwise" seems to suggest that if you aren't close-minded, you're "otherwise violent." So you can be open-minded but in return must be violent? Is violence always bad?
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Offline EponiCo

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Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
« Reply #107 on: September 22, 2013, 01:48:39 pm »
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benkei : I don't care about German law. What I was saying is, there shouldn't be any recognised religion. Religion is a private matter that neither should be invaded by state matters (freedom of spirituality) nor invade state matters itself (state-religion separation). What I'm saying is, it is wrong and un-secular for a state to recognise individual religions and give any kind of authority in matters that regard the state and the state only (case in point, the law). Individuals can consider themselves part of a religious group and be open about it if they want just like their sexual orientation (as long as it is not proselytism). They can follow religious "laws" if they want to and be "judged" by their religious authorities if they want to as long as everything is actually legal by state laws. It shouldn't be the responsibility of the state to ensure people affiliated with a given religion don't eat X, just because that religion has many followers. Religious neutrality is not giving concessions based on the size of arbitrary religious groups, it is ignoring religion altogether. People having "problems" just because their religion is forbidding/forcing them to do illegal things have only themselves to blame.


This is precisely what I'm talking about when I say that's not how freedom of religion works. You, as an individual, are allowed to have any spiritual belief you like. You can invent imaginary do's and don'ts to make your life harder for yourself if you like. However You cannot force others to do anything based on those rules you have chosen for yourself. This is a private and strictly individual matter. If those personal rules makes you do things that are outright illegal (e.g. the lamb sacrifice), you are commiting a crime, and you have only yourself to blame. You alone have decided to be religious, precisely because you have the freedom to choose. As an atheist I can also sacrifice a lamb, and just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean I shouldn't be treated the exact same way. We are both humans and equal in rights, that is all that should matter.


Just to show how ridiculous the whole idea of "reasonable exceptions" goes, what if tomorrow the whole atheist population pushed for say, banning paper ? We could all pretend our beliefs prevent us from using paper.


edit : just spotted a missing "not"

To clarify: This is not about the state passing laws, enforcing religious rules or allowing criminality because it's ok in the criminals religion. This is simply about the question how existing law (which is perfectly fair and neutral imo) is applicated.
It is allowed to excuse yourself from compulsory service if that entails doing things which are against your convictions. For example the state doesn't force vegans to eat meat. It also doesn't force Jews to eat non-kosher meat (freedom of spirituality). So both groups can excuse themselves from cooking lessons where meat is made. In that case it was about a Muslim wanting to be excused from swimming because it was against her religion. They were asking religious authorities in the context of whether that was actually the case and if they should accept the excuse. This is all that is about.
If you'd want to avoid that in the first place and reject the reasons outright as Muslim/religious, that'd be you trying to force a religion/value set on the state, unless you are not accepting any excuses. Which would probably entail tying a vegetarian to a chair and force feed him meat. Sounds terribly funny, but I think I'll still stick with the more liberal way (hell, since this is about swimming, I'd actually consider "I just don't feel like it" a valid excuse to be honest - how far it goes plays a big role also, obviously, good luck trying to fund a religion which is against taxes).

In any case this is far removed from any actual integration problems, since real problem kids and their parents do not care the slightest about failing school.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 01:51:43 pm by EponiCo »

Offline Lt_Anders

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Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
« Reply #108 on: September 22, 2013, 05:38:34 pm »
+1
As far as ideologies go, Golden Dawn is still on the mild end of the spectrum.

What is a "clean" ideology? How are humans naturally inescapably close-minded and what does that have to do with violence? "Or otherwise" seems to suggest that if you aren't close-minded, you're "otherwise violent." So you can be open-minded but in return must be violent? Is violence always bad?

Point was, we often have natural instincts/inclinations to act certain ways. In most instances, we don't act on them because we can reason, either with ourselves, or others, why not to do that.(In addition to societies/cultures laws also helping in this regard) But, when you get people who manipulate others(IE Example in this thread) for their own gain(Political/Social in this case) that's where Politics/Ideology starts to equal Religious "Fanaticism."

And Violence is inherent to humans. Bad things sell, simple as that. We like violent and grim movies and games, dark stories, even physical and damaging sports. It's not Colosseum bad(IE real death/Blood and animals, etc) but it's as close as we get with our enlightened perspective.
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Offline Kafein

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Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
« Reply #109 on: September 22, 2013, 05:51:27 pm »
+1
To clarify: This is not about the state passing laws, enforcing religious rules or allowing criminality because it's ok in the criminals religion. This is simply about the question how existing law (which is perfectly fair and neutral imo) is applicated.
It is allowed to excuse yourself from compulsory service if that entails doing things which are against your convictions. For example the state doesn't force vegans to eat meat. It also doesn't force Jews to eat non-kosher meat (freedom of spirituality). So both groups can excuse themselves from cooking lessons where meat is made. In that case it was about a Muslim wanting to be excused from swimming because it was against her religion. They were asking religious authorities in the context of whether that was actually the case and if they should accept the excuse. This is all that is about.
If you'd want to avoid that in the first place and reject the reasons outright as Muslim/religious, that'd be you trying to force a religion/value set on the state, unless you are not accepting any excuses. Which would probably entail tying a vegetarian to a chair and force feed him meat. Sounds terribly funny, but I think I'll still stick with the more liberal way (hell, since this is about swimming, I'd actually consider "I just don't feel like it" a valid excuse to be honest - how far it goes plays a big role also, obviously, good luck trying to fund a religion which is against taxes).

In any case this is far removed from any actual integration problems, since real problem kids and their parents do not care the slightest about failing school.

Your vegan analogy isn't a good analogy. Arguing you shouldn't fail swimming classes because your religion doesn't allow you to swim is not the same as not swimming because your religion doesn't allow you to swim. Case in point, the latter is perfectly fine. But if you don't attend swimming classes, you don't learn to swim. No matter the reasons, the end result is that you didn't learn to swim, and that means you fail the class. The vegan analogy equivalent would be arguing that you should be able to become a non-vegan gastronomy critique without eating meat.

Offline Xant

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Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
« Reply #110 on: September 22, 2013, 06:02:18 pm »
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Point was, we often have natural instincts/inclinations to act certain ways. In most instances, we don't act on them because we can reason, either with ourselves, or others, why not to do that.(In addition to societies/cultures laws also helping in this regard) But, when you get people who manipulate others(IE Example in this thread) for their own gain(Political/Social in this case) that's where Politics/Ideology starts to equal Religious "Fanaticism."

And Violence is inherent to humans. Bad things sell, simple as that. We like violent and grim movies and games, dark stories, even physical and damaging sports. It's not Colosseum bad(IE real death/Blood and animals, etc) but it's as close as we get with our enlightened perspective.
That doesn't answer any of my questions.
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Offline Lt_Anders

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Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
« Reply #111 on: September 22, 2013, 08:44:02 pm »
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That doesn't answer any of my questions.

That doesn't disprove my point.
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Offline Xant

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Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
« Reply #112 on: September 22, 2013, 08:52:55 pm »
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That doesn't disprove my point.
No, but it kills the discussion.
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Offline Lt_Anders

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Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
« Reply #113 on: September 22, 2013, 08:56:51 pm »
+3
No, but it kills the discussion.

It's discussion of Golden Dawn. I can really go there if you want.

I mean, Tiber Septim didn't like them at all. They cause far to much oblivion where they are 8-)
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Offline EponiCo

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Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
« Reply #114 on: September 23, 2013, 12:55:49 am »
+1
Your vegan analogy isn't a good analogy. Arguing you shouldn't fail swimming classes because your religion doesn't allow you to swim is not the same as not swimming because your religion doesn't allow you to swim. Case in point, the latter is perfectly fine. But if you don't attend swimming classes, you don't learn to swim. No matter the reasons, the end result is that you didn't learn to swim, and that means you fail the class. The vegan analogy equivalent would be arguing that you should be able to become a non-vegan gastronomy critique without eating meat.

That wasn't an analogy, that was an example where the same principle is applicable. However it appears I was wrong, you are also not excused from cooking meat as a vegan.
And I don't know if that is so easy. If it were courses you'd take to get a certificate it's perfectly trivial that not attending the test is automatic failure. However those are a part of the compulsory school and failing a single class in Germany means (or at least used to mean) you cannot advance, and it might (*) be a matter of swimming or never graduating. Which is pretty nasty when you think about it. You cannot become a banker because you cannot swim. For me this really raises the question why those classes are really necessary for anyone (well, at least for cooking it would be really easy to find a school that doesn't do it). One could easily have children pick those courses and only have core classes counting.

(*) I have no idea to be honest as the German school system is very complicated.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 01:08:08 am by EponiCo »

Offline Xant

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Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
« Reply #115 on: September 23, 2013, 01:33:28 am »
+1
I don't know, not being able to go through school if you're religious might be a welcome encouragement to drop your silly beliefs. The faster the whole world updates their beliefs to 21st century, the better for humanity. One way to achieve that is to actively start shunning religious people.
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Offline Swaggart

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Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
« Reply #116 on: September 28, 2013, 05:00:09 pm »
+2
Looks like a bunch of Golden Dawn party members got arrested. Guess we won't be seeing Panos for a while.

Offline Utrakil

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Offline Christo

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Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
« Reply #118 on: September 28, 2013, 05:25:29 pm »
+1
Oh look, criminals arresting criminals.

Nice.
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Offline Kafein

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Re: Golden Dawn, knights in shining armor.
« Reply #119 on: September 28, 2013, 09:00:30 pm »
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That might be an intelligent move from the government if they actually cut the head, and some other head doesn't grow. Quite unfortunate they feel forced to act.