Actually agree here..
Nerf the thrust damage, and buff the polearm mode to compensate..
It has actually been bothering me ever since I got in crpg. How on earth can 2 handers keep triumphing over polearms when it comes to reach?
There is also the issue of damage inflicting range. 2 hander stabs seem to deal full damage all the time even if only the tip of the weapon barely touches you. I would like to see these two problems fixed. The way they are now, they bear the stench of being broken.
Actually agree here..
Nerf the thrust damage, and buff the polearm mode to compensate..
The problem with polearm reach in Warband is that they are all held the same way, in the middle, all the time. With some polearm techniques, mainly spears techniques, one would shift their grip toward the butt of the weapon during a thrust to gain reach. I don't know if it's possible to add this to only certain polearms and not the whole lot however.
Pikes got fixed for being borky and "unrealistic", but ofc, 2h masterrace can never be really nerfed (fixed). The 2h stab got some kind of magic, when the tip touches an opponent the 2h masterrace magic is unleashed.how did pikes got fixed? you still can roflcopter( used to be worse) stabb people and you can stabb someone right infront of you with longspear, if that is fixed than i am south african flying albino cyclops bull shark
how did pikes got fixed? you still can roflcopter( used to be worse) stabb people and you can stabb someone right infront of you with longspear, if that is fixed than i am south african flying albino cyclops bull sharkPikes and long spear got nerfed tough. Then 2h heroes was happy.
how did pikes got fixed? you still can roflcopter( used to be worse) stabb people and you can stabb someone right infront of you with longspear, if that is fixed than i am south african flying albino cyclops bull sharkThe decrease in turnspeed made the pike/longspear much more difficult to use.
how did pikes got fixed? you still can roflcopter( used to be worse) stabb people and you can stabb someone right infront of you with longspear, if that is fixed than i am south african flying albino cyclops bull shark
What's all this talk about pikes being fixed? They're not. They can still block and they're very expensive. If they were cheaper and couldn't block they'd be fixed as they'd proper support weapons - weak on their own but great when combined with other weapons. On top of this you could add bracing and perhaps a high stab, but an easy way to fix them right now would be to make them cheaper and unable to block.
Fin.
Oh look, it is this thread, AGAIN.
Let me tell you something about 2h. It has been nerfed over and over and over again and has been made a mockery of what it once was. The damage was nerfed multiple times, the speed was nerfed CONSIDERABLY, the stab damage was crushed, stomped, tar & featherd, burned, then drowned. The animation was changed multiple times, hell even the lenght was shortened on some swords. Everything that you could possibly imagine nerfed has already been nerfed, and yet it is still not enough for some people.
Let me give you a hint(click to show/hide)
what mod are you playing, i would like to play that
what mod are you playing, i would like to play that
Anyway if you guys are talking realism about Pikes and LOngspears, please dont go there, if you want realism then a down block shouldn't be able to block a stab from multiple weapons and maybe even one weapon. So if you want realism with no blocking and no insta stabbing be my guest and get rid of the OP down block
Everything i said was the truth
Facts:
Now - Before the nerfs
a MW Danish is 91 speed now - used to be 94
44 cut now - 48 cut before
27 pierce - used to be 29 or 30
+-1 or the same damage and speed nerfs for german and claymore
Claymore 117 from 120 lenght
Animation was changed multiple times in an attempt to stop the crying
Again, it will probably never be enough for some people
Now let me ask you, what mod are YOU playing?
This is just plain stupid. None of the blocks, as shown in Warband, would be worth much at all, which is why you have to think of them as a way of showing "Now I'm defending this area of my body" rather than an accurate depiction of a valid defence against an attack. I wouldn't mind a more elegant way of doing this but the blocking animations don't affect the gameplay in any way so they're not much of an issue.
Edit: It would make some sense if your block broke after each attack so you could only defend against one attack at a time but it all comes down to how you interpret blocking.
It makes total sense, how the fuck would you block a thrust with a sword , you definitely not block itt but you maybe able to step out of the way or parry the hit. Just get your head out of your arse and stop this NERF LONG SPEARMAN, how many do you ever see on the battlefield, 1-3 maybe, how many 2h's do you see? the whole server.
people always want realism when it favours them, once someone brings up realism against their class they automatically shut the argument down by saying c-rpg ins't based on realism, it isn't the devs that make this mod unbalanced, it is us with are continuous crying about nerfing and buffing, we fuck up our own game.
2h is piss easy because of its animation, how do i know ive played several gens as 2h, compare it to the polearm animations and you will find it far superior
The 2h stats of a greatsword are still better than all polearms and all other weapons.
The stats of the greatsword were OP before hand because thats the only weapon people used before hand asa 2h hence why they nerfed greatswords and buffed the Longsword, Miaodoa, Dado and all other 2h's
you cant balance classes on stats, but if you are going to 2h is superior
Let me try to explain as objective as possible.
Try this: pick ANY melee weapon that is not 2h, that you consider the best in that class. You picked? good. Its a pretty sweet weapon
Now, substract 3 speed and 4 damage from it and tell me would you still stick with it
The problem is that 2hs were way too OP to begin with and people got used to it and loved the 2hs because of it. Now it's impossible to fix them because people remember how good they used to be and refuse to have them fixed. If they had gotten 2hs right to begin with, we wouldn't have to fix them because people wouldn't have gotten used to winning through broken weapons. Now it's too late.
Let me try to explain as objective as possible.
Try this: pick ANY melee weapon that is not 2h, that you consider the best in that class. You picked? good. Its a pretty sweet weapon
Now, substract 3 speed and 4 damage from it and tell me would you still stick with it
I agree and im not saying they should be buffed but i am against nerfing them any further
This game is not about realism, it is about making it fun for all parties, im a dedicatded longspearman for 10 gens, never taken a sidearm for it because i know people are stupid enough to think they can always beat me easily. The longspear is balanced at the moment, when i ever counter anyone with half a brain i cannot kill them because all they do is hold downblock, Piker has got to be one of the hardest classes to be good at, people like Teeth and Gurnisson are the only ones in my eyes that have mastered it, how many people have mastered 2h? the whole community.
Biggest problem about the Longspear are the people that are on the receiving end of it, they are just too stupid to do the correct footwork and be patient when attacking a pikeman, they think, 'oh look a guy with 1 attack direction, no need to block' and then complain when they are are hit in the face.
No, the biggest problem is that stupid people think that pikes and long spears are supposed to work like this. It's not a "class" that is " difficult" to master. People are just doing it wrong. The pike isn't meant to be a solo weapon just as the two handed sword isn't meant to have the reach of a pike. Some people are just stupid enough to believe it or they choose to believe it because it suits them. If daggers could block and did tons of damage I'm sure YOU would argue that they were balanced and difficult to use but it'd still be wrong as hell to have them work like that. The fact that some people are able to exploit and abuse flaws in the gameplay to make broken weapons work for their messed up play-style doesn't mean that it's how they should be used. If you want pikes and long spears in the game you should make them work in a way that makes sense. Make them cheap, and thus available, and make them good for supporting your allies. The idea of a dedicated pikeman who can fend for himself in close combat with his pike is why they're ruined now. Fix them or remove them I say, because this is ridiculous. We might as well add lightsabers now that we're at it.
Well, why dosent 2h work properly with their swinging of the greatsword a million mph, or shielders that have inviincible shields and forcefields, or 2h lol stab, or that horses dont die when they hit walls at full speed, or that archers can draw and move while using a longbow, or that arbalests are drawn by hand, or that cut weapons to damage against plate.
The game is full of flaws and thats how it is, you will never be able to change the way pikes or longspears work like all these other things.
PLus the Longsper and Pike are cheap, 300 gold for upkeep of Long spear is cheap
No, the biggest problem is that stupid people think that pikes and long spears are supposed to work like this. It's not a "class" that is " difficult" to master. People are just doing it wrong. The pike isn't meant to be a solo weapon just as the two handed sword isn't meant to have the reach of a pike. Some people are just stupid enough to believe it or they choose to believe it because it suits them. If daggers could block and did tons of damage I'm sure YOU would argue that they were balanced and difficult to use but it'd still be wrong as hell to have them work like that. The fact that some people are able to exploit and abuse flaws in the gameplay to make broken weapons work for their messed up play-style doesn't mean that it's how they should be used. If you want pikes and long spears in the game you should make them work in a way that makes sense. Make them cheap, and thus available, and make them good for supporting your allies. The idea of a dedicated pikeman who can fend for himself in close combat with his pike is why they're ruined now. Fix them or remove them I say, because this is ridiculous. We might as well add lightsabers now that we're at it.
Again: Pikes/LS are not expensive at all. Stop trying to say they are. If people can not afford to carry a pike+sidearm+medium/heavy armor they are doing something very wrong.
So your idea to fix pikes is to 'fix' them by doing what? They are already the slowest weapon in the game and their base damage is only 24 pierce. Your big issue seems to come from how they are used... spinning/jumping/general ballet style. Yeah it looks silly, I agree. Taking away their block will destroy the class completely, driving away even more of the very rare players who use them.
So much QQ threads about 2H nerf, which is nerfed many times in past.You seem to think that the fact that they were nerfed means they're useless. This is not the case at all, and the nerf was called for.
I remember, before market I spend 3 generations for Highland and then they nerf it. Than 3 generation for Danish, they nerf it.
Now you want nerf again.
Back in medieval times they use halfswording and regular 2h thrust. Curent 2H stab animation (in game) is regular one. It can be used with Flamberge as well.(click to show/hide)
Halfswording is just another technique for 2h, in that case for more powerful stab (to pierce thicker armor for example).
This is a regular 2h thrust, used it in medieval times and it is also used today in various tournaments, during training etc.(click to show/hide)
From what I can tell, both players moving toward each other during the thrust is what triggers the 2h thrust block stunI'm reasonably certain it's triggered by being blocked or glancing late in your stab animation. I'm not 100% sure this is the case, but I would be surprised if it wasn't.
In duel you can abuse this by intentionally walking into a stab that is past the point of doing damage, but has not yet retracted. Not really a useful trick for battle, though.
Biggest problem about the Longspear are the people that are on the receiving end of it, they are just too stupid to do the correct footwork and be patient when attacking a pikeman, they think, 'oh look a guy with 1 attack direction, no need to block' and then complain when they are are hit in the face.
The fuck are you talking about? No one is complaining about getting stabbed at range. It's the part where the middle of the shaft does the stabbing that's the problem.Every weapon does full piercing damage when landing a stab with the side of the weapon. It's disingenuous to single out support polearms for this. I have instagibbed teammates by brushing them with the side my fist when doing a 1h stab.
Except every other weapon isn't massively long.I would classify the stab on a GGS or GS as 'massively long', and I'm fine with this. I certainly wouldn't suggest that a GGS user suddenly become completely helpless the instant an enemy gets close to him.
Aside from the differences in stab animation which do favour the greatswords, the polearms have this lovely ability to become active practically immediately after you release the attack.You can do this with 2h swords as well. Aim an inch next to your opponent's head, release, and then simultaneously move forward and drag the hit in. You will land a full damage hit almost immediately after releasing.
but calling pikes and longspears fine is disingenuous.But they are fine. The game is full of idiosyncrasies (hiltslashing, blocking massive weapons with tiny weapons, surviving getting hit by horses, surviving having your horse plow directly into a wall, shaft-stabbing, etc), but they are all beneficial to gameplay. The need for deep, nuanced gameplay supersedes the desire for realistic looking strategies.
In duel you can abuse this by intentionally walking into a stab that is past the point of doing damage, but has not yet retracted. Not really a useful trick for battle, though.
I would classify the stab on a GGS or GS as 'massively long', and I'm fine with this. I certainly wouldn't suggest that a GGS user suddenly become completely helpless the instant an enemy gets close to him.
The pike & long spear sacrifice pretty much everything for their reach. Going further by removing any means of self-defense would likely just mean that nobody would play them.
Becomes helpless? I take it you've never heard of halfswording? Then again the devs stopped halfway through the process of finishing it ...
Yeah, half-swording is pretty flippin' useless given that it inexplicably uses polearm WPF instead of two-handed.
Well it is for balance I think. A pure melee can easily afford wpf in 2h and polearms both. A xbow/thrower hybrid could only afford wpf in 2h + their range weapon, making the pure melee more versatile with their weapon of choice than the hybrid can be. At least in theory. I think the damage difference is really the killing blow to the half-swording.You can take some polearm wpf as a 2h, but then you are sacrificing some speed and damage in your 2h mode. All you gain with that sacrifice is the ability to turn your nice, long 2h into a slow, incredibly short polearm that can't overhead.
Oh look, it is this thread, AGAIN.
Let me tell you something about 2h. It has been nerfed over and over and over again and has been made a mockery of what it once was. The damage was nerfed multiple times, the speed was nerfed CONSIDERABLY, the stab damage was crushed, stomped, tar & featherd, burned, then drowned. The animation was changed multiple times, hell even the lenght was shortened on some swords. Everything that you could possibly imagine nerfed has already been nerfed, and yet it is still not enough for some people.
Let me give you a hint(click to show/hide)
You can do this with 2h swords as well. Aim an inch next to your opponent's head, release, and then simultaneously move forward and drag the hit in. You will land a full damage hit almost immediately after releasing.i do not think that hiltlashes are beneficial to game play in any way, neither is shaft stabbing. it is an extremely cheap and bullshit way to land a hit.
But they are fine. The game is full of idiosyncrasies (hiltslashing, blocking massive weapons with tiny weapons, surviving getting hit by horses, surviving having your horse plow directly into a wall, shaft-stabbing, etc), but they are all beneficial to gameplay. The need for deep, nuanced gameplay supersedes the desire for realistic looking strategies.
i do not think that hiltlashes are beneficial to game play in any way, neither is shaft stabbing. it is an extremely cheap and bullshit way to land a hit.Define 'extremely cheap' and 'bullshit'. They are counterable strategies that give players tricks for sneaking hits in. Given how easy it is to block when playing defensively, I hardly think that there is a need to make things easier.
Define 'extremely cheap' and 'bullshit'. They are counterable strategies that give players tricks for sneaking hits in. Given how easy it is to block when playing defensively, I hardly think that there is a need to make things easier.hilt slash and shaft stabbing is bullshit and extremely cheap because they hit when they shouldnt. getting closeup to pikeman, only to get stabbed by shaft is pretty bullshit in my opinion. same with 2h. they just slash through you even at facehug range. thats imo extremely cheap.
hilt slash and shaft stabbing is bullshit and extremely cheap because they hit when they shouldnt. getting closeup to pikeman, only to get stabbed by shaft is pretty bullshit in my opinion. same with 2h. they just slash through you even at facehug range. thats imo extremely cheap.Why shouldn't they hit? I hope realism isn't the answer to that, because this game is about as much of a simulation as Ace Combat. Should small weapons automatically get crushed through by heavy blunt weapons? Clearly such a small weapon shouldn't be able to block such a heavy blow. Should stabs be unblockable, except by chambering? Clearly holding your weapon horizontally at waist-level wouldn't stop a thrust.
Let's take a moment to appreciate the diet water this man is cutting.
You can do this with 2h swords as well. Aim an inch next to your opponent's head, release, and then simultaneously move forward and drag the hit in. You will land a full damage hit almost immediately after releasing.
But they are fine. The game is full of idiosyncrasies (hiltslashing, blocking massive weapons with tiny weapons, surviving getting hit by horses, surviving having your horse plow directly into a wall, shaft-stabbing, etc), but they are all beneficial to gameplay. The need for deep, nuanced gameplay supersedes the desire for realistic looking strategies.
I wouldn't call unblockable attacks a feature that makes the game mechanics deeper... Hiltslashing is something TW never intended and it shows.Quick stabs aren't unblockable. Stabs are considerably faster in native (and faster yet with the 'fastest' setting in NA), but people still manage to consistently block them.
Why shouldn't they hit? I hope realism isn't the answer to that, because this game is about as much of a simulation as Ace Combat. Should small weapons automatically get crushed through by heavy blunt weapons? Clearly such a small weapon shouldn't be able to block such a heavy blow. Should stabs be unblockable, except by chambering? Clearly holding your weapon horizontally at waist-level wouldn't stop a thrust.
I also find it a little hypocritical that you are want to be able to uncounterably spam a pikeman to death once you get close, but that you also want it to be impossible for a 2h to spam you when he gets close (although it's perfectly counterable).
i want to be able to uncontrollably spam a pikeman if he is foolish enought to not draw a sidearm if i close in to the distance that would be impossible to stab me from.How about you get stabbed for not blocking down? Frankly, if somebody wins a 1v1 with a 1d weapon, they deserve the win. There should never, ever be a 1v1 situation which is an automatic loss for one of the players.
i love how people like you suddenly refer to -this game is not realistic- phrase when they dont want something that is broken fixed because they abuse it.I almost never use a pike, so guess again. This game is not a simulation; it is not even close to realistic. Manual blocking for most players is very easy after a few hundred hours of gameplay, so there needs to be a host of tricks for sneaking hits in. If you remove tricks, then 1v1 combat just comes down to who gets bored first (which, frankly, is already the case a lot of the time).
now if you look closely at the stab block animation, character actallty deflects the stab with his weapon, which is quite easily possible in real life situation [and also is the reason why pike or spear is not good dueling weapon in irl].You are not going to deflect a thrust from a fairly heavy weapon (particularly an awlpike) with a tiny one-hander. You certainly aren't going to deflect multiple stabs in a 120 degree arc in front of you, as is the case in Warband. However, the game would be awful if that wasn't possible.
How about you get stabbed for not blocking down? Frankly, if somebody wins a 1v1 with a 1d weapon, they deserve the win. There should never, ever be a 1v1 situation which is an automatic loss for one of the players.ugh where to start? first define a small one hander, deflecting two handed sword with a sidesword is perfectly possible if you are skilled enought to pull it off. you are clearly forgetting the laws of physics there. if one guy atempts to stab you with a long ass spear and you hit the head, you can easily drive it off course.
I almost never use a pike, so guess again. This game is not a simulation; it is not even close to realistic. Manual blocking for most players is very easy after a few hundred hours of gameplay, so there needs to be a host of tricks for sneaking hits in. If you remove tricks, then 1v1 combat just comes down to who gets bored first (which, frankly, is already the case a lot of the time).
Or, to put it in in a way that is as equally as snarky as you are being: you are shit at the game. Stop posting suggestion until you get better. Spend several months sinking a hundred hours or so into each of the available weapon classes, and then come back and post suggestions. This forum already has way too many people who have only ever played a single weapon class.
You are not going to deflect a thrust from a fairly heavy weapon (particularly an awlpike) with a tiny one-hander. You certainly aren't going to deflect multiple stabs in a 120 degree arc in front of you, as is the case in Warband. However, the game would be awful if that wasn't possible.
but stabbing someone who is in facehug range with a fucking pike is ridiculous and unfair.There is nothing unfair about it. Block down.
so have quite enough experience with this mod.No, you don't. Sink a few hundred hours into each of the three melee classes. Each of the classes has a distinct set of animations and tricks that can't be learned without putting real time into them.
you do not seem to understand that a guy who uses pike at close quarter is a helpless idiot and DESERVES to be spammed.A guy who cannot block down is a helpless idiot who deserves to die. Or, more realistically, he is a greedy fuck who knew it was a bad idea to not block, took the risk, and then got punished (everybody does this from time to time).
ugh where to start? first define a small one hander, deflecting two handed sword with a sidesword is perfectly possible if you are skilled enought to pull it off. you are clearly forgetting the laws of physics there. if one guy atempts to stab you with a long ass spear and you hit the head, you can easily drive it off course.I would absolutely love to see a person with a side-sword attempt to push aside an awlpike (or many of the shorter spears, which are held very close to the tip). If you are trying to establish Warband as some sort of simulation, you aren't going to succeed. Melee in Warband bears about as much resemblance to reality as Street Fighter.
okay ive had enough, i will not put up with someone who thinks that stabbing someone with 4 meters long pike at a distance of 1 meter is perfectly fine, because it is just not.
you just simply dont get it. i did not say i cant defend myself from pikeman at face hug range, i merely said that they shouldnt be able to use their pikes at a range that would normally be impossible to use. if you want to keep broken mechanics unfixed then we have nothing else to talk about here.
EDIT: you clearly havent heard of spanish swordsmen who used to break through pike formation with one handed weapon and shield. you want to know what happened when the wall of pikes was broken? utter anihilation of entire formation.
okay ive had enough, i will not put up with someone who thinks that stabbing someone with 4 meters long pike at a distance of 1 meter is perfectly fine, because it is just not.
you just simply dont get it. i did not say i cant defend myself from pikeman at face hug range, i merely said that they shouldnt be able to use their pikes at a range that would normally be impossible to use. if you want to keep broken mechanics unfixed then we have nothing else to talk about here.
EDIT: you clearly havent heard of spanish swordsmen who used to break through pike formation with one handed weapon and shield. you want to know what happened when the wall of pikes was broken? utter anihilation of entire formation.
4 meter pikes? The Pike (3m) is useless up close. Long spear can be used, but the difference in skill must be massive for a long spear user to beat a shielder. I ate pikemen for breakfast as a shielder, but having played a pikeman I knew when to spam and when to block (which is not to often, mind you). Try pikeman for a while and you might find yourself beating them more easily, just like with most classes. Playing a class will show you their weaknesses.Yes.
People running through chambered pikes is just as retarded. Do both or none.
Yes, balance a game with mostly 40-100 players based on formations. :rolleyes:
EDIT: you clearly havent heard of spanish swordsmen who used to break through pike formation with one handed weapon and shield. you want to know what happened when the wall of pikes was broken? utter anihilation of entire formation.
How about you get stabbed for not blocking down? Frankly, if somebody wins a 1v1 with a 1d weapon, they deserve the win. There should never, ever be a 1v1 situation which is an automatic loss for one of the players.
This never happenedhow do you know?
When arguing about game mechanics with SaulCanner, realize that his word carries a lot of weight in that he can be sorta impartial since he is good at all classes and good enough above the rest of us rabble to not feel the need to launch into tirades about this or that being OP.There are quite a few good players who play a lot of different classes (Teeth is probably my favourite). I'm certainly not unique in terms of skill level or class diversity.
There are quite a few good players who play a lot of different classes (Teeth is probably my favourite). I'm certainly not unique in terms of skill level or class diversity.
I believe if they moved the thrust hitbox to just the point (would make sense no? you know only be able to stab with the point instead of the whole friggin sword) and nerfed the thrust turn speed like the did for poles then the 2h lolstab would be mostly fixed.Doesn't work like that. There is no "weapon hitbox". There's a line that gets drawn starting at the hand that extends until it reaches the appropriate weapon length. The base warband client makes this whole thing impossible. It might be possible with WSE2, but that's really complicated and no one but cmp would know how to do that. If it was possible to do in a timely manner, cmp would have done it ages ago, surely.
Doesn't work like that. There is no "weapon hitbox". There's a line that gets drawn starting at the hand that extends until it reaches the appropriate weapon length. The base warband client makes this whole thing impossible. It might be possible with WSE2, but that's really complicated and no one but cmp would know how to do that. If it was possible to do in a timely manner, cmp would have done it ages ago, surely.