2h thrust rage thread

[Ragni_Bross]

Let me try to explain as objective as possible.

Try this: pick ANY melee weapon that is not 2h, that you consider the best in that class. You picked? good. Its a pretty sweet weapon

Now, substract 3 speed and 4 damage from it and tell me would you still stick with it

The problem is that 2hs were way too OP to begin with and people got used to it and loved the 2hs because of it. Now it's impossible to fix them because people remember how good they used to be and refuse to have them fixed. If they had gotten 2hs right to begin with, we wouldn't have to fix them because people wouldn't have gotten used to winning through broken weapons. Now it's too late.

[Strudog]

This game is not about realism, it is about making it fun for all parties, im a dedicatded longspearman for 10 gens, never taken a sidearm for it because i know people are stupid enough to think they can always beat me easily. The longspear is balanced at the moment, when i ever counter anyone with half a brain i cannot kill them because all they do is hold downblock, Piker has got to be one of the hardest classes to be good at, people like Teeth and Gurnisson are the only ones in my eyes that have mastered it, how many people have mastered 2h? the whole community.

Biggest problem about the Longspear are the people that are on the receiving end of it, they are just too stupid to do the correct footwork and be patient when attacking a pikeman, they think, 'oh look a guy with 1 attack direction, no need to block' and then complain when they are are hit in the face.

[Umbra]

The problem is that 2hs were way too OP to begin with and people got used to it and loved the 2hs because of it. Now it's impossible to fix them because people remember how good they used to be and refuse to have them fixed. If they had gotten 2hs right to begin with, we wouldn't have to fix them because people wouldn't have gotten used to winning through broken weapons. Now it's too late.

I agree and im not saying they should be buffed but i am against nerfing them any further

[Strudog]

Let me try to explain as objective as possible.

Try this: pick ANY melee weapon that is not 2h, that you consider the best in that class. You picked? good. Its a pretty sweet weapon

Now, substract 3 speed and 4 damage from it and tell me would you still stick with it

I dont think you understand the reason for that nerf do you?

The reason was that there was such a huge gap between greatswords and the rest of the 2h's that, Greatsword was the only logical pick in any 2h's eyes, so as you should you buff those weapons that are not being used and nerf those that are being used too much, you cannot tell me that the Danish great sword is a useless weapon now? it is is till a great weapon in any 2h's hands, what the devs did was spread the use of 2h's

I agree and im not saying they should be buffed but i am against nerfing them any further

A 4 directionweapon  that has a better stab than a pike or a Longspear, seems legit

[Ragni_Bross]

This game is not about realism, it is about making it fun for all parties, im a dedicatded longspearman for 10 gens, never taken a sidearm for it because i know people are stupid enough to think they can always beat me easily. The longspear is balanced at the moment, when i ever counter anyone with half a brain i cannot kill them because all they do is hold downblock, Piker has got to be one of the hardest classes to be good at, people like Teeth and Gurnisson are the only ones in my eyes that have mastered it, how many people have mastered 2h? the whole community.

Biggest problem about the Longspear are the people that are on the receiving end of it, they are just too stupid to do the correct footwork and be patient when attacking a pikeman, they think, 'oh look a guy with 1 attack direction, no need to block' and then complain when they are are hit in the face.

No, the biggest problem is that stupid people think that pikes and long spears are supposed to work like this. It's not a "class" that is " difficult" to master. People are just doing it wrong. The pike isn't meant to be a solo weapon just as the two handed sword isn't meant to have the reach of a pike. Some people are just stupid enough to believe it or they choose to believe it because it suits them. If daggers could block and did tons of damage I'm sure YOU would argue that they were balanced and difficult to use but it'd still be wrong as hell to have them work like that. The fact that some people are able to exploit and abuse flaws in the gameplay to make broken weapons work for their messed up play-style doesn't mean that it's how they should be used. If you want pikes and long spears in the game you should make them work in a way that makes sense. Make them cheap, and thus available, and make them good for supporting your allies. The idea of a dedicated pikeman who can fend for himself in close combat with his pike is why they're ruined now. Fix them or remove them I say, because this is ridiculous. We might as well add lightsabers now that we're at it.

[Strudog]

No, the biggest problem is that stupid people think that pikes and long spears are supposed to work like this. It's not a "class" that is " difficult" to master. People are just doing it wrong. The pike isn't meant to be a solo weapon just as the two handed sword isn't meant to have the reach of a pike. Some people are just stupid enough to believe it or they choose to believe it because it suits them. If daggers could block and did tons of damage I'm sure YOU would argue that they were balanced and difficult to use but it'd still be wrong as hell to have them work like that. The fact that some people are able to exploit and abuse flaws in the gameplay to make broken weapons work for their messed up play-style doesn't mean that it's how they should be used. If you want pikes and long spears in the game you should make them work in a way that makes sense. Make them cheap, and thus available, and make them good for supporting your allies. The idea of a dedicated pikeman who can fend for himself in close combat with his pike is why they're ruined now. Fix them or remove them I say, because this is ridiculous. We might as well add lightsabers now that we're at it.

Well, why dosent 2h work properly with their swinging of the greatsword a million mph, or shielders that have inviincible shields and forcefields, or 2h lol stab, or that horses dont die when they hit walls at full speed, or that archers can draw and move while using a longbow, or that arbalests are drawn by hand, or that cut weapons to damage against plate.

The game is full of flaws and thats how it is, you will never be able to change the way pikes or longspears work like all these other things.

PLus the Longsper and Pike are cheap, 300 gold for upkeep of Long spear is cheap

[Ragni_Bross]

Well, why dosent 2h work properly with their swinging of the greatsword a million mph, or shielders that have inviincible shields and forcefields, or 2h lol stab, or that horses dont die when they hit walls at full speed, or that archers can draw and move while using a longbow, or that arbalests are drawn by hand, or that cut weapons to damage against plate.

The game is full of flaws and thats how it is, you will never be able to change the way pikes or longspears work like all these other things.

PLus the Longsper and Pike are cheap, 300 gold for upkeep of Long spear is cheap

A few posts earlier I mentioned that I for one wouldn't mind fixing the shields. I would also not mind having two handed weapons, polearms and one handed weapons fixed. I'm all in for realism. You should have made this your point from the beginning: "I'm too lazy and too stupid to try and change anything at all" rather than trying to use realism. Being lazy and stupid is perfectly normal and very common I'm afraid, so you're right - these things probably won't be fixed. That does not mean that there's no point in trying though.

[Relit]

No, the biggest problem is that stupid people think that pikes and long spears are supposed to work like this. It's not a "class" that is " difficult" to master. People are just doing it wrong. The pike isn't meant to be a solo weapon just as the two handed sword isn't meant to have the reach of a pike. Some people are just stupid enough to believe it or they choose to believe it because it suits them. If daggers could block and did tons of damage I'm sure YOU would argue that they were balanced and difficult to use but it'd still be wrong as hell to have them work like that. The fact that some people are able to exploit and abuse flaws in the gameplay to make broken weapons work for their messed up play-style doesn't mean that it's how they should be used. If you want pikes and long spears in the game you should make them work in a way that makes sense. Make them cheap, and thus available, and make them good for supporting your allies. The idea of a dedicated pikeman who can fend for himself in close combat with his pike is why they're ruined now. Fix them or remove them I say, because this is ridiculous. We might as well add lightsabers now that we're at it.

Again: Pikes/LS are not expensive at all. Stop trying to say they are. If people can not afford to carry a pike+sidearm+medium/heavy armor they are doing something very wrong.

So your idea to fix pikes is to 'fix' them by doing what? They are already the slowest weapon in the game and their base damage is only 24 pierce. Your big issue seems to come from how they are used... spinning/jumping/general ballet style. Yeah it looks silly, I agree. Taking away their block will destroy the class completely, driving away even more of the very rare players who use them.

Edit: nevermind, your entire argument is realism based. Which is just silly.

[Ragni_Bross]

Again: Pikes/LS are not expensive at all. Stop trying to say they are. If people can not afford to carry a pike+sidearm+medium/heavy armor they are doing something very wrong.

So your idea to fix pikes is to 'fix' them by doing what? They are already the slowest weapon in the game and their base damage is only 24 pierce. Your big issue seems to come from how they are used... spinning/jumping/general ballet style. Yeah it looks silly, I agree. Taking away their block will destroy the class completely, driving away even more of the very rare players who use them.

The reason I suggest making them cheaper is for people to be less butthurt about them being fixed and so new players can pick them up early on and get used to supporting their allies. Yes, I take issue with how they're used and NO, fixing them won't ruin the class. As it is with most people, you believe that a dedicated piker is one who uses his pike or long spear to fix every single problem. Naturally, this is just silly. If you don't believe this then there's no point in arguing how "bad they are" because it'll never be your weapon of last resort and it's only meant to support your friends. The greatest damage the pike does is not to kill or wound your opponent but to stun him. Thus it doesn't really matter how much damage you do, because your allies will finish the job for you. Supporting your friends means helping them do their job, not doing it for them on your own. If people carried sidearms with them and pikes were cheap enough to be discarded when in close combat, there'd be no problem. But people insist on having über-pikes that can do everything which is, obiously, stupid and wrong.

[Sagar]

So much QQ threads about 2H nerf, which is nerfed many times in past.

I remember, before market I spend 3 generations for Highland and then they nerf it. Than 3 generation for Danish, they nerf it.

Now you want nerf again.

Back in medieval times they use halfswording and regular 2h thrust. Curent 2H stab animation (in game) is regular one. It can be used with Flamberge as well.

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[Palurgee]

So much QQ threads about 2H nerf, which is nerfed many times in past.

I remember, before market I spend 3 generations for Highland and then they nerf it. Than 3 generation for Danish, they nerf it.

Now you want nerf again.

Back in medieval times they use halfswording and regular 2h thrust. Curent 2H stab animation (in game) is regular one. It can be used with Flamberge as well.

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You seem to think that the fact that they were nerfed means they're useless. This is not the case at all, and the nerf was called for.

None of these images show the cRPG thrust, and the others exemplify my point.

[Kalam]

In addition to it's animations, part of the cry against two-handers, I feel, is that they represent the ultimate melee weapon. For many people, it was where they started learning the intricacies of the game.

I've called it the 'piano' of cRPG weapons before, and I stick by that- two-handers are a building block for the other melee weapons. Because of that, most players are more familiar with it's animations and the little tricks you can use with them than others. That's a little advantage in and of itself that might not be considered when looking at two-handed weapons.

I'd like to add that I don't think polearm thrust results in the same stun that 2h stabs result in. Or at least, there's a different dynamic that triggers it. From what I can tell, both players moving toward each other during the thrust is what triggers the 2h thrust block stun. I don't think the same thing happens with polearms.

Slowing anything down at this point is ridiculous. Changing the animations would work, but hey, it might also hurt the balance.

Rather, changes to peripheral (kicks to buff one-hand versus them, animations on certain polearms to buff those, making other polearms heavier for use of weaponstun, etc.) things should be made- though I feel that two-handers will always have the biggest advantage against melee in one-on-one encounters.

[Sagar]

Halfswording is just another technique for 2h, in that case for more powerful stab (to pierce thicker armor for example).
This is a regular 2h thrust, used it in medieval times and it is also used today in various tournaments, during training etc.

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[Ragni_Bross]

Halfswording is just another technique for 2h, in that case for more powerful stab (to pierce thicker armor for example).
This is a regular 2h thrust, used it in medieval times and it is also used today in various tournaments, during training etc.

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The idea isn't so much to pierce armour more efficiently as it is being able to get around the armour and go for the weak spots. You gain control, accuracy and speed when you half-sword which allows you to get around the armour :/

[Sagar]

I know, halfswording is one whole technique with a lot of tricks.
I mentioned increased pierce damage as one advantage among others.